+Lightning Jeff Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Yesterday I was surprised to receive a "discovered" log on a travel bug that went missing back in December 2005. When I inquired where this person had seen the travel bug, she responded that she received the tracking number by trade. Apparently she and other cachers keep spreadsheets of all of the tracking numbers for trackables they've come across, then trade those lists with others. So, while this person had never so much as laid eyes on our TB, she blissfully logged having discovered it (and, presumably, many others). I was astounded. Is this really what this activity has come to? Flat-out lying in order to - what? - get an icon, or one more "found" TB? My gosh, what is the point in that? It seems truly pathetic to me - where is the satisfaction when you haven't actually seen the item? Worse, it's a lie to the owner of the trackable. Does this practice violate any clearly-stated guidelines and if so, what can be done about it? I deleted the log, but probably would not have had this person not responded and explained what they'd done. (Which is interesting in itself, since it suggests they don't even realize this is wrong; I'm pretty sure my 9-year-old would know this is wrong.) Quote Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 (edited) Does this practice violate any clearly-stated guidelines and if so, what can be done about it? Doesn't matter if it's clearly stated or not, virtual logging, even Discovers can get you into a lot of trouble. Forward what information you have to the TB forum Moderator Eartha. And before someone brings it up, yes this is different then getting a sheet of coin numbers from the owner at an event. edit: spelling Edited September 25, 2007 by BlueDeuce Quote Link to comment
thespongefactor Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 I agree. One must see and have hands on to even "discover" Quote Link to comment
+UncleJimbo Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 And before someone brings it up, yes this is different then getting a sheet of coin numbers from the owner at an event. Just curious, but how is that different? Quote Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 And before someone brings it up, yes this is different then getting a sheet of coin numbers from the owner at an event. Just curious, but how is that different? Reasonable doubt that you were within proximity of said coins so that you could have recorded the tracking number yourself should you have been so inclined. Quote Link to comment
+Blaidd-Drwg Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 And before someone brings it up, yes this is different then getting a sheet of coin numbers from the owner at an event. Just curious, but how is that different? Reasonable doubt that you were within proximity of said coins so that you could have recorded the tracking number yourself should you have been so inclined. OK, so how about the discovers of this RJTB Reasonable doulbt?? Quote Link to comment
+UncleJimbo Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 And before someone brings it up, yes this is different then getting a sheet of coin numbers from the owner at an event. Just curious, but how is that different? Reasonable doubt that you were within proximity of said coins so that you could have recorded the tracking number yourself should you have been so inclined. I guess I just don't get why anyone would want to log a "discovery" of an item without actually touching it or at least seeing it. What is the point? Are these cachers 12 years old? Whatever... Quote Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 And before someone brings it up, yes this is different then getting a sheet of coin numbers from the owner at an event. Just curious, but how is that different? Reasonable doubt that you were within proximity of said coins so that you could have recorded the tracking number yourself should you have been so inclined. OK, so how about the discovers of this RJTB Reasonable doulbt?? Eartha is already handling that issue. Quote Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 And before someone brings it up, yes this is different then getting a sheet of coin numbers from the owner at an event. Just curious, but how is that different? Reasonable doubt that you were within proximity of said coins so that you could have recorded the tracking number yourself should you have been so inclined. I guess I just don't get why anyone would want to log a "discovery" of an item without actually touching it or at least seeing it. What is the point? Are these cachers 12 years old? Whatever... Me neither, but there is a difference between that and a coin owner bringing their collection to an event. Quote Link to comment
+Blaidd-Drwg Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 And before someone brings it up, yes this is different then getting a sheet of coin numbers from the owner at an event. Just curious, but how is that different? Reasonable doubt that you were within proximity of said coins so that you could have recorded the tracking number yourself should you have been so inclined. OK, so how about the discovers of this RJTB Reasonable doulbt?? Eartha is already handling that issue. I'm unaware of how Eartha is handling the issue. In the cache I referenced earlier, the RJTBs have been marked as missing. My opinion is that they're not missing, but just removed from the game and placed out of reach of cachers. But back on topic, the issue is cachers logging 'Discovered' on items they've never seen or touched. I have seen TBs logged as discovered, as the OP noted, that have been reported missing. Quote Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 (edited) But back on topic, the issue is cachers logging 'Discovered' on items they've never seen or touched. I have seen TBs logged as discovered, as the OP noted, that have been reported missing. Yes, it happens but gc.com isn't going to manage every single individual occurrence. They aren’t interested in policing it at that level. Chronic abuse of the system, that can be proven, needs to be reported directly to gc.com. Then they are at least willing to take a look to see if any action needs to be taken. Like say locking a TB that is being virtually logged through dozens of caches. Or like Eartha marking a jeep as missing. Edited September 26, 2007 by BlueDeuce Quote Link to comment
+Lightning Jeff Posted September 26, 2007 Author Share Posted September 26, 2007 (edited) Chronic abuse of the system, that can be proven, needs to be reported directly to gc.com. Then they are at least willing to take a look to see if any action needs to be taken. Like say locking a TB that is being virtually logged through dozens of caches. Or like Eartha marking a jeep as missing. I'm not sure anything more than that can be done, but it confirms my sense that there isn't much point in reporting something like this. I deleted the fraudulent log, and maybe that's all that can be done. I don't see a user being banned because they keep and trade these lists and log things they've never seen. This is a shame. I used to be interested in setting out TBs, both for the fun of watching them travel, and for the enjoyment of others. In the end, few of them travel (most of course are lost or stolen), and I'm not interested in facilitating the kind of enjoyment some significant group of users seems to use TBs for (i.e., self-aggrandizement and icon-frenzy through fraudulent logs). In the end, it's pretty pathetic. Edited September 26, 2007 by Lightning Jeff Quote Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 I really don't think it's a common practice. However if you aren't enjoying your travel bugs then there isn't any good reason to continue making them. Quote Link to comment
+Eartha Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 If any travel bugs/geocoins are being logged that anyone knows for sure is missing, please let me know, and I will mark it missing. The thing is, with travel bugs, people can still release the copy tag, and the travel bug can still be used, so we can't just lock them, that would only hurt the travel bug owner. There are so many TB's and coins out there that we can't possibly check them all, this is a volunteer position, and it would take several full time employees to handle that nearly impossible task. But if a bug/coin is known to be gone for good, and the owner is not active, I can mark them missing if the link to the bug/coin is sent to me. I check the bug page, I check the cache page, and I check the holder's and owner's profiles to see if they are active, before marking them missing. This way, if the bug does go back into play, or a copy is released, it only needs to be logged to start moving again. It's really the travel bug/geocoin owner's responsibility to manage the bogus logs on their bug pages. Feel free to delete any logs that you feel are false. And try not to worry about someone else's bug. I do not believe that most bugs or coins are lost or stolen. Some yes, but not as many as you might think. Because there are so many out there it seems like a lot. It's just that we mostly hear about the problems, and hardly ever about the good stuff. It's like that with anything. You'll notice the threads with the complaints will stay on a forum front page a lot longer than any thread with compliments. And yes, I (in my caching mode) am missing a travel bug too. I do know the pain. (Now watch, a whole bunch of travel bugs will get logged because no one will want to be the one caught holding on to Eartha's bug! LOL and no, I won't tell you who you are, you'll just have to release any bugs you are holding, because I know who last logged it.) Quote Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 In the end, few of them travel (most of course are lost or stolen), and I'm not interested in facilitating the kind of enjoyment some significant group of users seems to use TBs for (i.e., self-aggrandizement and icon-frenzy through fraudulent logs). In the end, it's pretty pathetic. I really don't think it's a common practice. However if you aren't enjoying your travel bugs then there isn't any good reason to continue making them. So...since you are no longer doing TBs maybe you should consider adopting your current inventory over to me. (Dang where's a reallllyyy evil smilie when you need one?) Quote Link to comment
+Lightning Jeff Posted September 28, 2007 Author Share Posted September 28, 2007 I do not believe that most bugs or coins are lost or stolen. Some yes, but not as many as you might think. That made me check my own, and here's what I have: 8.1.2000: Launched 12.17.05; last seen 2.14.06 (3 users and less than 2 months later). Crackabrew: Success Story - Launched 2.12.05; still active today having traveled from Washington state to Canada, Australia, Hawaii and back to Canada. Crackabrew II: Launched 5.2.05; last seen 10.21.05 (apparently stolen by psirose) on 10.21.05 (6 users and less than 6 months later). School Law Express: Success Story - Launched 3.23.06, still active today. Ol' Dinosaur Bone: Launched 1.30.05; stolen by first finder (leblanc) 2 weeks later. Ol' Dinosaur Bone - Reissued with Copy tag: Limited Success Story - Launched 11.25.05; reached goal 12.29.06; last seen 4.15.07 (in hands of harristsajrm). Gex (mistakenly activated on my wife's account): Launched 7.9.05; last seen 12.17.05 (4 users and less than 6 months later). So, 3 success stories (and one of those missing), and 4 miserable failures. Yes, "most" of my TBs are lost or stolen. In 3 of those cases, the apparent perpetrator (having retrieved the TB and then never placed it) is known. I don't know that anything can be done about it - I'd suggest that their accounts be locked, except that would probably ensure the TBs are never placed again, and at any rate this is usually the result of someone having abandoned the game. Maybe we simply have to be resigned to the fact that in order to see a few TBs succeed, we have to launch a bunch more knowing most will quickly disappear. Quote Link to comment
+JegMag Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 For what it's worth, I don't like the "Discovered" option at all. Some of my bugs are "Discovered" in caches, but not moved on. Quote Link to comment
+Geocaching-Geckos Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 (edited) Yesterday I was surprised to receive a "discovered" log on a travel bug that went missing back in December 2005. When I inquired where this person had seen the travel bug, she responded that she received the tracking number by trade. Apparently she and other cachers keep spreadsheets of all of the tracking numbers for trackables they've come across, then trade those lists with others. So, while this person had never so much as laid eyes on our TB, she blissfully logged having discovered it (and, presumably, many others). I was astounded. Is this really what this activity has come to? Flat-out lying in order to - what? - get an icon, or one more "found" TB? My gosh, what is the point in that? It seems truly pathetic to me - where is the satisfaction when you haven't actually seen the item? Worse, it's a lie to the owner of the trackable. Does this practice violate any clearly-stated guidelines and if so, what can be done about it? I deleted the log, but probably would not have had this person not responded and explained what they'd done. (Which is interesting in itself, since it suggests they don't even realize this is wrong; I'm pretty sure my 9-year-old would know this is wrong.) I had the exact same problem with a couple of my geocoins. A couple of experienced cachers "spammed" my coins. I would delete their logs & send them a polite note not to do it again. Sure enough, they did it again and again. Not only that, I received a threatening e-mail from one of them that, in a nutshell, said I would really "regret" it and threatened to report me to a certain Moderator if I continued to delete their logs. I ended up reporting them to Groundspeak and they put an end to their shenagans. Edited September 28, 2007 by Geocaching-Geckos Quote Link to comment
+Lotho Posted September 28, 2007 Share Posted September 28, 2007 Its really pitiful they do that. And tbs aswell, its not even like they earn a new icon..ah well, some people play this game in funny ways..thats one thing ive learnt from the forums. Quote Link to comment
+Blaidd-Drwg Posted September 29, 2007 Share Posted September 29, 2007 Does marking a TB as missing prevent it from being Discovered? Quote Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted September 29, 2007 Share Posted September 29, 2007 Does marking a TB as missing prevent it from being Discovered? No, only locking does, but it also prevents real logging. Quote Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted September 29, 2007 Share Posted September 29, 2007 I do not believe that most bugs or coins are lost or stolen. Some yes, but not as many as you might think. That made me check my own, and here's what I have: 8.1.2000: Launched 12.17.05; last seen 2.14.06 (3 users and less than 2 months later). Crackabrew: Success Story - Launched 2.12.05; still active today having traveled from Washington state to Canada, Australia, Hawaii and back to Canada. Crackabrew II: Launched 5.2.05; last seen 10.21.05 (apparently stolen by psirose) on 10.21.05 (6 users and less than 6 months later). School Law Express: Success Story - Launched 3.23.06, still active today. Ol' Dinosaur Bone: Launched 1.30.05; stolen by first finder (leblanc) 2 weeks later. Ol' Dinosaur Bone - Reissued with Copy tag: Limited Success Story - Launched 11.25.05; reached goal 12.29.06; last seen 4.15.07 (in hands of harristsajrm). Gex (mistakenly activated on my wife's account): Launched 7.9.05; last seen 12.17.05 (4 users and less than 6 months later). So, 3 success stories (and one of those missing), and 4 miserable failures. Yes, "most" of my TBs are lost or stolen. In 3 of those cases, the apparent perpetrator (having retrieved the TB and then never placed it) is known. I don't know that anything can be done about it - I'd suggest that their accounts be locked, except that would probably ensure the TBs are never placed again, and at any rate this is usually the result of someone having abandoned the game. Maybe we simply have to be resigned to the fact that in order to see a few TBs succeed, we have to launch a bunch more knowing most will quickly disappear. So, are you going to let me adopt your missing TBs or not? I'm setting up a series of "How to log a Travel Bug" TBs. Might as well put them to good use. The more the merrier. Quote Link to comment
+Blaidd-Drwg Posted September 29, 2007 Share Posted September 29, 2007 Does marking a TB as missing prevent it from being Discovered? No, only locking does, but it also prevents real logging. Do you have any idea why a TB should be marked as missing, when it was intentionally placed in an archived cache by the owner of the cache who is also the current holder of the bug? Quote Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted September 29, 2007 Share Posted September 29, 2007 Does marking a TB as missing prevent it from being Discovered? No, only locking does, but it also prevents real logging. Do you have any idea why a TB should be marked as missing, when it was intentionally placed in an archived cache by the owner of the cache who is also the current holder of the bug? Well, if you're not the bug owner the only way you can mark a bug as missing is to place it into a cache listing you own. You don't get the option any other way. I can only speculate as to why they did this. Quote Link to comment
+Lightning Jeff Posted October 1, 2007 Author Share Posted October 1, 2007 So, are you going to let me adopt your missing TBs or not? Nah, I still hold out hope that they'll materialize someday. It could happen! Quote Link to comment
+Trucker Lee Posted October 1, 2007 Share Posted October 1, 2007 Do you have any idea why a TB should be marked as missing, when it was intentionally placed in an archived cache by the owner of the cache who is also the current holder of the bug? It shouldn't be. Properly, IMHO, the owner should place a note on the bug page stating: "The bug or coin has been stolen from the Geocaching community after being handled by ............ Do not log this item if you have not physically seen it. If you see this item or know it's location, please ask the holder to release it to travel and be enjoyed as was intended. Thank you." Quote Link to comment
Mr.Yuck Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 Yesterday I was surprised to receive a "discovered" log on a travel bug that went missing back in December 2005. When I inquired where this person had seen the travel bug, she responded that she received the tracking number by trade. Apparently she and other cachers keep spreadsheets of all of the tracking numbers for trackables they've come across, then trade those lists with others. So, while this person had never so much as laid eyes on our TB, she blissfully logged having discovered it (and, presumably, many others). I was astounded. Is this really what this activity has come to? Flat-out lying in order to - what? - get an icon, or one more "found" TB? My gosh, what is the point in that? It seems truly pathetic to me - where is the satisfaction when you haven't actually seen the item? Worse, it's a lie to the owner of the trackable. Does this practice violate any clearly-stated guidelines and if so, what can be done about it? Hey there, sponsor. As the Blue Deuce says, I don't think this practice of keeping spreadsheets and trading tracking numbers is very widespread. First I've ever heard of it. I have heard of people trading jeep tracking numbers, but never for other people's coins or TB's. Of course nothing anyone does to abuse the system at geocaching.com will ever surprise me. Quote Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 Of course nothing anyone does to abuse the system at geocaching.com will ever surprise me. Yeah, but gc.com overlooking a 'little abuse' means only if it doesn't become a pattern. Sometimes people think that 'If I can get away with it today, I can get away with it from here on out. They don't care so it must be okay.' Nope, sorry. Quote Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 So, are you going to let me adopt your missing TBs or not? Nah, I still hold out hope that they'll materialize someday. It could happen! No sorry, that's not what you mean. Go to http://www.geocaching.com/adopt/ and enter in the reference number. My exact user name is BlueDeuce. Quote Link to comment
+M4RKO Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 I know this is a very old thread, but I have a question that is somewhat along these lines, so I thought I'd just resurrect this thread rather than start a new one. We recently visited a TB Motel cache, and the log book was formatted for you to sign your user name, list the TBs tracking number, and log whether it was checking in or out. The owner of this cache seems to be very committed to the TBs that pass through it, taking time to discover, photograph and re-release all the TBs -- which I think is awesome of the CO because a lot of times the pics they upload are the first pics of the TB uploaded in a long time (or EVER). In no way do I think this person has any bad intentions, BUT...I felt a little unsure if I was doing the right thing by writing the tracking numbers in the log, because then anyone else who finds the cache can see the numbers of TBs they haven't physically seen. So I searched the forum to see if I could find anything about this kind of situation, and I found THIS thread, which made me even more worried that I had maybe made a mistake by writing those numbers in the log, because it seems like I was creating one of these lists...not that I think that is the COs intent, but someone with less scruples would be able to use this cache log to do exactly what this thread is talking about. This is the first time I've seen a log like this, maybe it is more common than I realize and not a big deal. I just want to know for future reference. I'd hate to indirectly help someone cheat or cause someone's trackable to be locked. Quote Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 No, you should never list the tracking number anywhere, whether it be in a logbook, cache log or shown in a photo. There is a reference number listed on the bug page (Use xxxxxxx to reference this item) that will allow people to know which bug it was but won't allow anyone to log it. Please note that my next few posts are not directed at your honest and very well written question. Quote Link to comment
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