Harsh Language from the Cle Elum, WA PD

[Team Wallace]

Hi Y'all!

 

I've got a micro in Cle Elum, WA (Kittitas County) called In the Pursuit of Life at the memorial for Douglas Munro. Click Here for more information about him.

 

Anyway, the last cacher who logged this cache notified me of a change to the contents of the cache : "The log had been removed and a typewritten note inserted instead. To paraphrase:

Play your game somewhere else. This is a cemetery...show some respect. Those playing this game will be arrested for trespassing.--Cle Elum Police Department" I placed the cache in 2004, have over 300 logged visits and every one of them have been reverent about the area and appreciative for me pointing out a small corner of Washington that would for the most part would go un-noticed.

 

I was wondering if anyone had see this kind of thing before. I'm inclined to not take it seriously until after I talk to the Cle Elum PD, but since I don't live in the area any longer I thought I'd chek to see if anyone had experienced this kind of hostility from the authorities in that area.

 

Cheers

Paul

[+WATreasureHunters]

A note to say that I really enjoyed this cache, and I hope that your note is a hoax of some sort. It would seem that if it REALLY was the police department interacting with this cache in some way, that they would have removed it completely. One can only hope...

[ljay]

Don't live in the area but i would like to add my 2pence worth re these types of Caches.

 

I agree with the treasure hunters that it is probably a nasty muggle but you obviously will have to check.

 

However

Keep placing them!! If you have permission from the land owner then there is no problem.

Many millions of young men and women have died for your country (and mine) and too many people forget that. If visiting these memorials helps people remember then that is a good thing.

 

I get the impression from the Cache discription that it is a war memorial. We have a series here in Scotland called Lest We Forget.

We should be proud of these men and women and if this is how we find to teach our children about the losses of war then so be it. Many children are not interested in hearing about things that happened half a centuary ago but i can guarentee they want to get out and find that cache.

 

Sorry for going off subject

Happy Caching

Ljay xox

[+WATreasureHunters]

Well said, ljay.

[+WRASTRO]

It seems doubtful the note is really from the police. If it is real I would expect there would be contact information and official language explaining why this is a problem. That is if they left the container in place, which I would doubt they would. Unfortunately whoever is responsible for the note will likely keep the cache from being viable in the future.

[+JaySTE]

If it wasn't the police who let the note, and it seems highly likely it was not, then whoever left it is guilty of police impersonation, which is far worse than leaving a cache in a debatable location.

 

JaySTE

[+Ambrosia]

I love cemetery caches. This one was one of the nicest that I've been to, I loved the cemetery! I laid in the grass near the cache for a while and just soaked in the peace and solitude.

 

That said, unless there was permission to hide the cache in the spot that it is (I don't know, since the cache description doesn't specifically say), I could believe that there could be issues with it. It made me a bit nervous, and I would have preferred it to have been hidden a few feet away in a less controversial spot.

[Chumpo]

We have done that cache as well, and we loved it!

If I'm remembering properly, isn't there a woody area just on the other side of the access road? I'm sure that no police would have left a note like that, and muggles do tend to be a bit clueless at times. Maybe a slight relocation would let you keep this great tribute cache active without having a muggle issue.

[+WRASTRO]

We always enjoy the cemetary caches as well and this was no exception when we found it over Labor Day weekend. I agree that perhaps relocating it would be in order if you want to keep it going. Perhaps one of the local cachers could assist in coming up with a new spot nearby.

[+TotemLake]

I would think if it was really from the police, the cache container would have been confiscated instead of going back to a typewriter to type out a threatening note and bring it back. Likely the note is also not on letterhead leading further to point this may be a muggled hoax.

 

That being said, cemetaries are not public lands. They are privately owned and trespassing charges can be pressed.

[+WRASTRO]

At the risk of being abused for making a bad paraphrasing, "I'm an accountant Jim, not an attorney", it seems to me that unless there are signs posted at the cemetary that say "members only" there is an implied or accepted "open to the public" policy at cemetaries. We certainly should not abuse this and if a cache, any cache, causes a problem it needs to be dealt with as quickly as possible.

 

Of course there is always the question of having permission for the cache to be there. I would guess that the vast majority of caches are placed without having permission for them to be there, despite what the rules state. There is a practical reason for this (more risk of abuse). Most people in positions of authority who cachers would need to deal with are bureaucrats and they don't tend to be overly flexible in their thinking. Plus, if the cache is not located in a park or some similar location, there is very likely not any person or department who could actually give permission for a cache to be placed. So I believe we operate in a don't ask, don't tell environment and dea with the issues when they arise.

[+WATreasureHunters]

I would volunteer to relocate that cache, if that is the decision, and you can't find anyone closer. I have family in both Cle Elum and Roslyn, and am in town at least monthly, even during winter months, and more often in the summer. This cache is important because of the history learned. I feel its important to keep it going.

[+TotemLake]

At the risk of being abused for making a bad paraphrasing, "I'm an accountant Jim, not an attorney", it seems to me that unless there are signs posted at the cemetary that say "members only" there is an implied or accepted "open to the public" policy at cemetaries. We certainly should not abuse this and if a cache, any cache, causes a problem it needs to be dealt with as quickly as possible.

 

Of course there is always the question of having permission for the cache to be there. I would guess that the vast majority of caches are placed without having permission for them to be there, despite what the rules state. There is a practical reason for this (more risk of abuse). Most people in positions of authority who cachers would need to deal with are bureaucrats and they don't tend to be overly flexible in their thinking. Plus, if the cache is not located in a park or some similar location, there is very likely not any person or department who could actually give permission for a cache to be placed. So I believe we operate in a don't ask, don't tell environment and dea with the issues when they arise.

June 16, 2006 · Filed under Vandalism · Comments

 

NEW YORK (Ananova) — A vandal who knocked over headstones in a US cemetery left police a small but important clue - his finger.

 

Police found the finger end stuck between two toppled gravestones in the cemetery in Fleming, New York state.

 

Officers, who say a total of 53 headstones were knocked over, later arrested a man missing a finger.

 

He has been charged with criminal mischief, criminal trespass and cemetery desecration, reports 13WHAM-TV.

I'm no attorney either, but laws covering private property are pretty clear. Buying a plot in a cemetery is akin to buying a condo for the next life. However, it is still on privately owned property which is maintained as a business.

 

The point I'm making is the charge can be pressed if you have no business being in the cemetery other than playing games. Its like skateboarding in a "public" garage. The "public" garage is still privately owned property and skateboarders are not using the facility for its intended use, thus can be charged for trespassing.

 

What's sad is our society has actually gotten away from playing games and picnicing in cemeterys. They used to be treated as parks to enjoy with passed away loved ones.

[+Kiersolvd]

From the WSGA website is recently added guidlines:

Common sense guidelines that get missed all the time:

• Stay away from schools
  
• Caches in cemeteries should be placed a respectable distance away from any headstones.
  
• Railroad tracks get a 150’ buffer on either side of the tracks. Until the line has been officially abandoned it’s still considered ‘active’ even if no trains run there any more.
  
• Bridges, in general, are a bad spot for a cache. The only exception would be foot bridges along a trail.
  

Although the cache is not placed near a headstone (as I recall,) it is a memorial and I can see why some local folk would be offended by the placement of this cache. Is this cache respectful? I personally don't know but would error on the side of caution. I have found caches in cemetaries that are respectfull and others that might not be.

[Team Wallace]

 

I spoke with the Cle Elum Chief of Police and the note was indeed placed there by the Cle Elum PD. Apparently the city is not happy with people crawling over gravestones and such.

 

I asked if there was some place that we could relocate the cache to that would be less troublesome and he said "anywhere outside the cemetary"

 

so. that's it then.

 

what's the group consensus - move the existing or archive it and place a new one?

 

We're going to archive it and allow someone else to place a cache near there if they want to. We'll pick up the container next time we're up there.

 

cheers

paul

Edited September 24, 2007 by Team Wallace

[+WATreasureHunters]

I think the posting by ljay said it the best. One of the reasons that geocaching is the hobby it is, is because of caches of this nature. Caches that teach, make you think, bring you somewhere that takes your breath away, etc. A memorial, such as this one, ceases to be a memorial if no one visits. I, for one, had a great conversation with my five year old daughter about what it means to be brave and a hero after revisiting this cache when in town visiting family.

 

With that said, it's your call. My offer to help out still stands. It's plain, and unfortunate, that the CEPD obviously never visited the cache page, to see the respectful things said by the folks that visited this cache, and left thinking about Mr. Munro and his actions.

 

Sarah

WATreasureHunters

[+Ambrosia]

Aw. I just saw the archival notice pop up in my email. I'm very sorry it worked out that way, and I'm sorry that cachers won't be able to continue enjoying this spot.

[Chumpo]

 

We are very sad that this great hide has passed away.

Edited September 25, 2007 by Chumpo

[dmagoo]

It is very sad to see this cache gone. I loved the place. It was an easy cache for me to get to as a handicacher.

[+Ambrosia]

So...who owns the surrounding forest? Is it National Forest? If that's so, someone could possibly hide a cache nearby within view of the cemetery and monument and still honor that area.

 

Of course, it would have to be done with a lot of research and sensitivity so that no one has problems with it.

 

Just wondering.

[Team Wallace]

So...who owns the surrounding forest? Is it National Forest? If that's so, someone could possibly hide a cache nearby within view of the cemetery and monument and still honor that area.

 

Of course, it would have to be done with a lot of research and sensitivity so that no one has problems with it.

 

Just wondering.

 

Keeping in mind that Douglas Munro is the only Coast Guardsman to receive the Medal of Honor - Cle Elum is proud of him and of the memorial. Thursday 9/27 they are having a ceremony to mark the anniversary of the battle he died in - so there may be some "fairweather patriotism" going on. Beats me - the cache was active for over four years before being noticed and suddenly we're not being respectful and need to leave.

 

I lived in this town from 2000-2004 and only found the memorial by accident. Ironic, huh?

 

The Police Chief said "anywhere outside the cemetary" would be fine. I'd take the Police Chief at his word and consider the entirety of the surrounding area as fair game. I'm just too far away to "saturate" it properly.

 

apologies for my poor attitude about it. I'm a vet and was personally moved by this memorial. I'm disappointed by the closed-mindedness of the town leadership.

 

on a side note - do you think i could be "charged with tresspassing" if i went to remove the cache container?

[+TotemLake]

So...who owns the surrounding forest? Is it National Forest? If that's so, someone could possibly hide a cache nearby within view of the cemetery and monument and still honor that area.

 

Of course, it would have to be done with a lot of research and sensitivity so that no one has problems with it.

 

Just wondering.

 

Keeping in mind that Douglas Munro is the only Coast Guardsman to receive the Medal of Honor - Cle Elum is proud of him and of the memorial. Thursday 9/27 they are having a ceremony to mark the anniversary of the battle he died in - so there may be some "fairweather patriotism" going on. Beats me - the cache was active for over four years before being noticed and suddenly we're not being respectful and need to leave.

 

I lived in this town from 2000-2004 and only found the memorial by accident. Ironic, huh?

 

The Police Chief said "anywhere outside the cemetary" would be fine. I'd take the Police Chief at his word and consider the entirety of the surrounding area as fair game. I'm just too far away to "saturate" it properly.

 

apologies for my poor attitude about it. I'm a vet and was personally moved by this memorial. I'm disappointed by the closed-mindedness of the town leadership.

 

on a side note - do you think i could be "charged with tresspassing" if i went to remove the cache container?

 

The note in hand gives you the authorization to remove the game piece in peace.

[+Renegade Knight]

I would think if it was really from the police, the cache container would have been confiscated instead of going back to a typewriter to type out a threatening note and bring it back. Likely the note is also not on letterhead leading further to point this may be a muggled hoax.

 

That being said, cemetaries are not public lands. They are privately owned and trespassing charges can be pressed.

Cemetaries may or may not be public. When I lived in Kuna I paid property tax to support the Kuna Cemetary. That made it public. Virtually all cemetaries allow public access. Because of that the act of geocaching would not be punishable by being arrested for tresspassing. Caching consists of allowed activites that have a longstanding tradition. The only real issue in virtually every case that anyone can come up with on geoaching is the container.

 

I was going to agree with your assessment that it's not the police department, but...that proved to be wrong. My contacts with the police through caches have always been professional and pleasant. In one case they left their actual card in the cache when it turned out to not be a drug stash. They said why they visted, that they found nothing and said to enjoy the game. In the other I called them up while they were investigating my cache for drugs. They were impressed that I called so fast. Both times, no harm, no foul,

no problem.

 

Team Wallace:

You would be doing the community a diservice if you do not place a cache that fits the guidelines that you have been given. Another won't know of them and may repeat exactly the issue that you just had. In your shoes I'd take the time to think about what you are trying to accomplish, if you can fit the guidline do so, if you can't, explain why and propose a plan B that solves the community's concerns and yet allows you to showcase something the community is clearly proud of. Failing that...one of those evil Multi caches is still the better solution.

[+Wander Lost]

We also did this cache many years ago and enjoyed it. I'm not big on caches in cemeteries but this is a nice memorial.

 

I would suggest making this into a multi-cache where the first waypoint takes you to that same spot and information from the markers fills in the blanks to coordinates for the container outside the cemetery. This will preserve the point of this cache by bringing people to this memorial. There is no way they can charge anyone with tresspassing if all they are doing is visiting the memorial and reading the information about this honored citizen.

[+superhoser]

That is really sad. I did this cache a while ago and I really loved it. I must have spent 30 minutes there after I found the cache reading the names and reflecting on how much our servicemen mean to me.It is to bad the police in cle elum don't understand.perhaps you should print out all these posts and deliver it to them.

[Team Wallace]

I would suggest making this into a multi-cache where the first waypoint takes you to that same spot and information from the markers fills in the blanks to coordinates for the container outside the cemetery. This will preserve the point of this cache by bringing people to this memorial. There is no way they can charge anyone with tresspassing if all they are doing is visiting the memorial and reading the information about this honored citizen.

 

I agree this is what needs to be done here. The rest of the Team has discussed it and we feel it is time to allow someone else put a cache here. the location is no longer in our back yard and we don't feel we can maintain it properly.

 

I really appreciate everyone's contribution to this discussion, I've enjoied people's comments on the cache logs they've been consistently appreciative of the place and what it represented. it had a good run.

 

perhaps WATreasureHunters or another cacher closer to this site can take it from here....

 

cheers

paul

[+coreynjoey]

Another one bites the dust. Is the Cle Elum PD having issues with geocaches?

 

 

Fly By GC118TP

 

 

Edited October 16, 2007 by coreynjoey

[+Dgwphotos]

It's a relatively harmless game, so why are they trying to trying to purscute us? It's not like we are spray painting buildings. I highly doubt they are going to put a stop to it. Someone needs to have a chat with the Cle Elum city council. Caches are private property and the government cannot seize private property just willy nilly. They need to be able to prove that it harms the public.

[+Berta Nick Zoey]

If Officer Rogers wants to look for things to "pick up" Im sure theres plenty of litter along side the road. Maybe he didnt get the promotion he wanted or something. I guess he has no idea that Geocaching brings people to Cle Elum who might even spend some money while they are there.

[+Berta Nick Zoey]

cle_elum@cleelum.com Heres a link if anyone wants to send their thoughts to the chamber of commerce.

[+Anonymous']

This is really lame. My first thought was whether or not it's really a police officer, or if it's a cacher who thinks it's fun to remove caches. Hopefully the chamber of commerce will do something.

[MarcusArelius]

It's a relatively harmless game, so why are they trying to trying to purscute us? It's not like we are spray painting buildings. I highly doubt they are going to put a stop to it. Someone needs to have a chat with the Cle Elum city council. Caches are private property and the government cannot seize private property just willy nilly. They need to be able to prove that it harms the public.

 

From the picture this appears to have been a lamp post skirt placement. From the description it sounds like the lamppost was in a store's parking lot. I suspect someone noticed people lifting the skirt and mentioned it to the police or to the store owner who in turn relayed it to the police.

 

The bottom line is you need to have permission to place a cache. The lamp post is private property too.

 

I would complain to the city council (not the chamber of commerce) only if the cache owner had permission to put it there.

[Team Misguided]

Before everyone get's all worked up and starts a email campaign, a better idea might be to have some local cachers approach the police department and ask why this is happening. Start a dialog and perhaps they will be able to educate the local P.D. on our game.

[+TotemLake]

It's a relatively harmless game, so why are they trying to trying to purscute us? It's not like we are spray painting buildings. I highly doubt they are going to put a stop to it. Someone needs to have a chat with the Cle Elum city council. Caches are private property and the government cannot seize private property just willy nilly. They need to be able to prove that it harms the public.

A game piece on someone else's property (commercial or otherwise) can be perceived as trash and trespassing to another's perspective if you do not have the appropriate permission. Double check that Terms of Use agreement you checked that you read when you created that cache.

[+ZSandmann]

I have two thoughts here. Well three, the first is that I am only an outside observer and otherwise really have no business having a say here other than being a fellow geocacher.

 

1) If the caches were placed without permission it is right to have them removed if the property owner so requests. The cemetary cache seemed very respectful to me and it is a shame you had to archive it.

 

2) The policeman or policemen seems to be going about this in a very tacky fashion in my opinion. If they are taking the ime to actively seek out caches, why just remove the logs and leave the containers? I have met many fine officers, and other civil servants that both cache and/or understand the geocaching concept. This particular one seems to not care or have any interest in learning. I would still encourage those in the area that ave caches at stake to contact the PD respectfully and ask for clarification on their new stance on our hobby.

[Lost Cosmonaut]

This is Cle Elum we're talking about, where the High School motto is "Huh?" and the City Police motto is "Not in my town!"

 

I had a friend who was a police officer in town, it's too bad he's retired now because I would have talked to him about it. But the general impression I've always gotten from the local police is that they're pretty closed minded and the typical power tripping small town police force. It's getting worse with all the people moving in from the west side that believe that as soon as they cross Snoqualmie, laws no longer apply to them (no offense to those who live on the other side of Snoqualmie and aren't like that).

 

It's sad to see that they are turning their attention to our harmless sport. You have to admit though that at times there are careless cachers who don't pay attention to muggles or are too wrapped up in finding the cache they don't care what they step on to get there. It's unfortunate, but it's true.

 

I know of at least one other cache on a cemetery (up in Roslyn). IIRC it's far enough away from the cemetery it shouldn't cause trouble, though. There's plenty of other caches in the town area that might soon get attention from the authorities. Every time I check the logs for gonepostal (GC1048V) I wonder how it's still there. I know I've felt uncomfortable going to it, even though I know the person in the house across the street. I have to wonder if the cache placer got permission from the property owner before placing it? Did he with the now infamous Fly By cache?

 

This is why I haven't and won't place any city caches. Too much drama.

 

- Team Vostok

Edited October 22, 2007 by Lost Cosmonaut

[+QuesterMark]

 

I spoke with the Cle Elum Chief of Police and the note was indeed placed there by the Cle Elum PD. Apparently the city is not happy with people crawling over gravestones and such.

 

I asked if there was some place that we could relocate the cache to that would be less troublesome and he said "anywhere outside the cemetary"

 

so. that's it then.

 

what's the group consensus - move the existing or archive it and place a new one?

 

We're going to archive it and allow someone else to place a cache near there if they want to. We'll pick up the container next time we're up there.

 

cheers

paul

 

Since there's no cache, you can still bring respectful attention to the spot.

Waymark it on Waymarking.com!

[+QuesterMark]

We also did this cache many years ago and enjoyed it. I'm not big on caches in cemeteries but this is a nice memorial.

 

I would suggest making this into a multi-cache where the first waypoint takes you to that same spot and information from the markers fills in the blanks to coordinates for the container outside the cemetery. This will preserve the point of this cache by bringing people to this memorial. There is no way they can charge anyone with tresspassing if all they are doing is visiting the memorial and reading the information about this honored citizen.

 

Nice suggestion!

[+coreynjoey]

Some good news!

 

salvelinus21 temporarily disabled Fly By (Disabled) (Traditional Cache)

at 10/22/2007 Log Date: 10/22/2007

 

Ok folks, the cache was removed by Cle Elum's finest due to a mixup on our part. We thought it was OK to place a cache in such a place, having found many in such places, but it turned out to be privately owned. The property manager had some great photos....of a mistaken drug drop off and suspicious activities...and lots of confusion....and the local authorities didn't know what it was....Anyhow, we have secured permission for this locale. The cache container will be replaced shortly and will up and running soon. Sorry for the confusion. In addition, look for several more caches in the neighborhood soon! The game is not over!

[+YeOleImposter]

2) The policeman or policemen seems to be going about this in a very tacky fashion in my opinion. If they are taking the ime to actively seek out caches, why just remove the logs and leave the containers? I have met many fine officers, and other civil servants that both cache and/or understand the geocaching concept. This particular one seems to not care or have any interest in learning. I would still encourage those in the area that ave caches at stake to contact the PD respectfully and ask for clarification on their new stance on our hobby.

 

Actually it is very smart to leave the container. Any cacher looking for the cache will 'find' it and give up. If the container is removed, then every cacher who comes looking for it will spend even more time looking for what, they think, should be there, causing even more traffic at the area.

[+STNolan]

Well all, I know this thread is several years old and I doubt anyone is still reading this, but I thought I would mention, that I have placed a cache in Cle Elum that brings people to the gravesite of Douglas Munro.

 

I placed this cache well before i knew about any of the drama that seems to have happened a few years ago out here. It is a simple offset. I do not feel comfortable placing physical caches in gravesites, but as a Coastie, I feel it is important to try and emphasize the impact that SM1 Douglas Munro had on the USCG, so I found a way to do it that keeps all gamepieces off private lands.

 

If you want to look at the cache listing, you can find it here: http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC51NT6_douglas-a-munro-multi

 

Thanks to GreviousAngel who informed me of this forum topic.

[+Dgwphotos]

Well all, I know this thread is several years old and I doubt anyone is still reading this, but I thought I would mention, that I have placed a cache in Cle Elum that brings people to the gravesite of Douglas Munro.

 

I placed this cache well before i knew about any of the drama that seems to have happened a few years ago out here. It is a simple offset. I do not feel comfortable placing physical caches in gravesites, but as a Coastie, I feel it is important to try and emphasize the impact that SM1 Douglas Munro had on the USCG, so I found a way to do it that keeps all gamepieces off private lands.

 

If you want to look at the cache listing, you can find it here: http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC51NT6_douglas-a-munro-multi

 

Thanks to GreviousAngel who informed me of this forum topic.