Jump to content

Oh no, another weapon question!


Luckless

Recommended Posts

In my opinion only idiots carry firearms on trails. They are not needed and poorly compensate for survival knowledge.

 

Well I am one of those so called idiots that BFPierce refers too in his post. I pack 44 mag 7 1/4" Colt Anaconda anytime I an in the woods with six rounds; each one with 240 grain hollow point bullet that leaves the barrel 1,360 feet per second.

 

There has been some good advice about whether to pack a gun ore not and there there has been some, well lets just say less then educated advice freely given. The decision whether to pack a gun or not is dependent upon the comfort level of the individual and is something that can be decided by a few comments in form. If you decide that carrying a gun is right for you then you must also take on the responsibilities that come with a gun. You need to be able to safely handle handle the gun and need to spend a lot of time at the range becoming proficient with it and knowing the guns limitations. Otherwise, stick to the pepper spray and bear bells please.

 

You only need the problem once for it to be a big problem. You may have spent years in the woods and never need it, but the next time you go out may be the time that you do.

 

I can relate with ICHTHYS' comment. A few years ago I on an early fall bow hunt for elk. There was this five mile by ten mile tract of land between a highway and river that I wanted to hunt. I decided that I would hunt it cross-corner so my brother in-law dropped me off on the highway and would pick me up at the other side. I had gotten no more then about 200 yards in when I realized that all my calls were in my fanny pack so I stopped, unloaded my pack and got my calls. I decided to give a calf call before I put the items I had taken out of my pack to get to my calls. While I was securing my pack I caught movement to my right, it was a black bear on a lope straight for me about 60 yards away. By the time I drawn the gun, aimed and fired the bear had covered 30 yards. I am just glad he was not on a dead run toward me, otherwise, he would have been on top of me by the time I drawn the gun and could have turned out differently. Now I am glad I had my gun with me, some of you may have been very comfortable with a can of pepper spray in this situation, to each their own.

 

Back to the OP's original statement : "It's dangerous out there." Yes, it can be what happened to me was rare; the animal was just following it's instinct. When you're in the woods the possibility always exists that you may have an unfortunate encounter with wildlife, however, the odds are probably higher these days that you'll have an unfortunate encounter with another human !

 

Be safe and happy hiking, hunting, and caching.

Link to comment

I don't carry guns anymore. I'm an ex Army officer. For years I was an avid upland and big game hunter as well. I beieved in carrying guns and felt some special added strength and invulnerability. About 15 years ago I gave up hunting (that's another story). 10 years ago took up backpacking again, SW, Rocky Mtn, VA/WVA wilderness areas are my favorite targets. As for those who insist their safety is threatened in every environment, and avid gun-toters, they will never be persuaded not to carry a gun. I've never had any trouble. I take safety precautions, but mostly in terms of where I go and what I do there. I've enjoyed watching bears in the wilderness. Black's are non-threatening. If you are worried, talk to a biologist or ranger about it, and get some sage advice. I have called coyotes since I was a youth, stopped shooting them 30 years ago, and I get a kick out of seeing them (fox and bobcat also) come to an artificial call. They are no threat. I would stay away from an area if it was overrrun by wild dog packs, but a farm dog on a trail doesn't count; I've met some friendly pooches on the App trail. If, if if if, you are planning a trip to Grizzly or Brown bear country, I would be concerned about checking with the authorities about rules and precautions. Some areas (alas, my info is seriously outdated, I'm a trained Wildlife Biologist, but haven't worked it for years) require you engage the services of a guide, and in those cases many do carry weapons just in case. The only North American species I am remotely concerned about are the Brown/Grizzly and Polar Bears. Nothing else.

My bottom line is simple, having turned pretty much into a total dove - those who carry the means of violence tend to beget violence. I won't argue with those who say "it only takes one time...." but neither will I listen to them. I go into the wilderness to find peace, solitude, serenity, and take time to be with my higher and purer thoughts that the day to day rat race doesn't afford me. If you are afraid of the outdoors, start on a personal journey to eliminate your fear, don't turn to guns in at attempt to kill everything that makes you uncomfortable. Beware of letting media build fear in your soul. Get real professional advice if you need it (biologists, not journalists). Just my 2 cents. If you're overly worried about people hurting you, see a shrink before you take it out on the wilderness.

Edited by kokodoug
Link to comment

For years I was an avid upland and big game hunter as well. I beieved in carrying guns and felt some special added strength and invulnerability.[...] having turned pretty much into a total dove [...]

Some people like to go from one extreme to another, each time believing they found a true religion.

 

If you're overly worried about people hurting you, see a shrink

which they then preach to others convinced that if you're not a member of the same church, you must be insane.

Link to comment

I don't carry guns anymore. I'm an ex Army officer. For years I was an avid upland and big game hunter as well. I beieved in carrying guns and felt some special added strength and invulnerability. About 15 years ago I gave up hunting (that's another story). 10 years ago took up backpacking again, SW, Rocky Mtn, VA/WVA wilderness areas are my favorite targets. As for those who insist their safety is threatened in every environment, and avid gun-toters, they will never be persuaded not to carry a gun. I've never had any trouble. I take safety precautions, but mostly in terms of where I go and what I do there. I've enjoyed watching bears in the wilderness. Black's are non-threatening. If you are worried, talk to a biologist or ranger about it, and get some sage advice. I have called coyotes since I was a youth, stopped shooting them 30 years ago, and I get a kick out of seeing them (fox and bobcat also) come to an artificial call. They are no threat. I would stay away from an area if it was overrrun by wild dog packs, but a farm dog on a trail doesn't count; I've met some friendly pooches on the App trail. If, if if if, you are planning a trip to Grizzly or Brown bear country, I would be concerned about checking with the authorities about rules and precautions. Some areas (alas, my info is seriously outdated, I'm a trained Wildlife Biologist, but haven't worked it for years) require you engage the services of a guide, and in those cases many do carry weapons just in case. The only North American species I am remotely concerned about are the Brown/Grizzly and Polar Bears. Nothing else.

My bottom line is simple, having turned pretty much into a total dove - those who carry the means of violence tend to beget violence. I won't argue with those who say "it only takes one time...." but neither will I listen to them. I go into the wilderness to find peace, solitude, serenity, and take time to be with my higher and purer thoughts that the day to day rat race doesn't afford me. If you are afraid of the outdoors, start on a personal journey to eliminate your fear, don't turn to guns in at attempt to kill everything that makes you uncomfortable. Beware of letting media build fear in your soul. Get real professional advice if you need it (biologists, not journalists). Just my 2 cents. If you're overly worried about people hurting you, see a shrink before you take it out on the wilderness.

The only truly most unpredictable animal to concern yourself with is man. Seeing a shrink doesn't resolve real life concerns. If I had the time, I'd hunt down the article of a female ranger at Mt Rainer accosted by a man. You remind me of people whom if didn't happen to them, it didn't happen at all. Until you experience it yourself, don't sneeze at others for having those concerns and PUHLEEZE stay off the shrink recommendations. That's just arrogant.

Link to comment

I've never really done any hiking through the backwoods because of fear of what I might meet.

In my area I have coyote packs, dog packs, wild pigs, bear, rabid animals and possibly wolf and mountain lion. My chance of running into any of these is probably slim, but just once would be more than enough.

With all the hiking I've been doing into the state forestlands with geocaching I've been considering getting a gun, just so that I'd be prepared, but I'm not really a gun kind of person. Some people on this website have said they carry pepper spray or animal repellant.

Can anyone here tell me how you go about obtaining and using it. Sounds like there are varieties that can deter a grizzly. That sounds like my kind of deterent (although I understand you have to be smart enough not to it use it when standing down wind and I'm not always smart). Would anyone know if it would stop a rabid animal? (A gun cetrtainly would stop them.)

Where would I get this type of spray? I believe I heard that if you carry mace you need some type of certification to do so. Would you need that in order to buy and use these sprays?

 

I would carry a knife or/and some pepper spray ;)

 

Mysteryseeker

Link to comment

Bottom line -- if you are in the wilderness, no groups smaller than four. Anything less is asking for it. Biggest hazards by a longshot are: hypothermia, dehydration, falling down, and having something fall on you. A gun will not help with any of these, which make up the vast majority of the problems folks have once they get more than say a half-hour away from the trailhead.

 

THEN, the next biggest problem are animals of the two-legged variety. A gun MIGHT help you there, but being in a group will be a lot more helpful. Most crooks are looking for easy pickins. (Which is why they are breaking into your car while you are hiking about rather than mounting a full-frontal assault.)

 

I think folks brewing up booze, weed or meth would be the one group with which a gun would be effective, since those folks can be way paranoid. But since those folks are packin, too, best strategy is to stay the hell away and warn others to stay away.

 

Most anecdotes that I have heard about animal attacks involve not-so-bright behavior on the part of the people.

 

The long and short, seems like firearms usually cause more trouble than they solve, and should stay at home unless you are heading for grizzly territory or an area frequented by meth cookers.

Link to comment

Another idea would be the 12 gauge flare gun pistols like they sell at wally world... I imagine if you need to signal for help one would be usefull, and if you are being attacked by anything i imagine it would get its full attention at the very least... and i imagine they are more legal to carry than guns in many areas.. that is as long as its not to dry out...

Link to comment

Bottom line -- if you are in the wilderness, no groups smaller than four. Anything less is asking for it. Biggest hazards by a longshot are: hypothermia, dehydration, falling down, and having something fall on you.

I do agree that for the vast majority of cases getting lost, being unprepared, and the other issues you listed are far more likely to happen than many other problems.

 

The long and short, seems like firearms usually cause more trouble than they solve, and should stay at home unless you are heading for grizzly territory or an area frequented by meth cookers.

Firearms do not cause trouble. Firearm operators acting in an irresponsible or illegal fashion often cause trouble.

 

If I'm peacefully carrying around a hammer on my belt, then I'm not causing trouble. If I attack someone with it, then I am causing trouble and the hammer itself didn't actually cause anything.

Link to comment
Firearms do not cause trouble. Firearm operators acting in an irresponsible or illegal fashion often cause trouble.

 

Very well said! I do agree that the gun itself is not the problem.

 

Not to be flippant, but I have observed that backpackers tend to be very conscious of the weight of their gear. And why not? All that gear has to be hauled on your shoulders and hips up and down hills for miles.

 

A Glock with ammo weighs nearly 3 pounds -- if you are leaving a wool hat, extra fuel, a rain poncho etc. at home to make room for the gun, you are trading solutions for very common (and very life-threatening) problems for a solution to problems that are remarkably uncommon.

 

The OP seemed to be fearful about some very real, but very exotic hazards. Prepare for the hazards that are a whole lot more common, travel with a group, and your need for a gun/numchucks/pepper spray/tactical nukes probably goes away. (OK, OK, the tactical nuke stays...damned meth cookers!)

 

The OP appears to live in an area within an afternoon's drive of some awesome outdoor rec opportunities (Central NY State). Put the fears aside, get some friends together, and get out there! I promise you nary a rabid black cat will cross your path.

 

If I'm peacefully carrying around a hammer on my belt, then I'm not causing trouble. If I attack someone with it, then I am causing trouble and the hammer itself didn't actually cause anything.

 

It has been said that when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. (There are men that would add that when all a woman has is a high-heel shoe, everything looks like a nail, but I digress). There do seem to be more than a few gun owners who approach things this way.

Edited by MikeB3542
Link to comment

Well, i´m impressed. Sort of. Sitting here in peacefull germany where the wildest animal is a bumblebee or a toothless snake, reading about your experiences with cougars, bears and other predators. You have interesting aeras to hike. I always wanted to see some of the national parks in the u.s. myself but now, after having read what you guys are up to, i reconsider.

 

that not because of the animals with the big teeth, but because of the gun carrying testosteron mutants i might meet somewhere in the woods.

 

one of you wrote before that a gun is as good as its holder and that one bad incident is enough to shorten your lifespan. well, those two put together mean that as long as mankind is not able to label the nutters and the iknowmyrightsandhowtodefendthems the guy who robs and shoot me might be you.

 

call me a spoilsport and a coward but i think i will stay with the bumblebees

Link to comment

Well, i´m impressed. Sort of. Sitting here in peacefull germany where the wildest animal is a bumblebee or a toothless snake, reading about your experiences with cougars, bears and other predators. You have interesting aeras to hike. I always wanted to see some of the national parks in the u.s. myself but now, after having read what you guys are up to, i reconsider.

 

that not because of the animals with the big teeth, but because of the gun carrying testosteron mutants i might meet somewhere in the woods.

 

one of you wrote before that a gun is as good as its holder and that one bad incident is enough to shorten your lifespan. well, those two put together mean that as long as mankind is not able to label the nutters and the iknowmyrightsandhowtodefendthems the guy who robs and shoot me might be you.

 

call me a spoilsport and a coward but i think i will stay with the bumblebees

 

I think that's probably a good idea.

Link to comment

Well, i´m impressed....call me a spoilsport and a coward...

 

Germans are anything but cowards. Your history (which is also some of my own heritage) is fascinating. While you may not like hiking in a park with someone else who has a gun, your ancestors have faced down civilizations and survived to be a modern nation. Not all of the peoples to whom I owe my heritage made it to the modern era as a people.

 

You are choosing to fear when none is needed. Bumblebees have stingers. Amazing how you can get along with them and not even mention the stinger as an issue when you are far more likely to be stung by one than your fellow man.

Link to comment

It's interesting to see what we each carry within us in the way of fear, when we hike. Bears, homicidal humans, tsunamis, wild dogs, getting lost, cold, wet, hungry, lightning, the dark... If you were to pull out the contents of our packs you'd understand a lot about each of us. I'd be interested in what we each feel is our most pressing fear when we are out of our element. For city dwellers it's the bush, for rural folk it could be something lurking in the city. My pack usually looks like I'm getting ready for the "end of days". I'm often mistaken for a backpacker when I'm just out for a simple day hike on an established trail. Then again I've spent time hundreds of miles from any roads, and I've camped for weeks above the Arctic circle. I really can't say that I worry any less there than when I'm just 300 yards from the trail head, in a crowded national park. I've always made it back. At least I have so far. At some point, all the worry turns too excitement and wonder. "ain't life grand"

Edited by epurb
Link to comment

I'm afraid of the tick in your avatar! Can't stand them.

 

:( Me too. I'm trying systematic desensitization, beginning with the Avatar.

 

Seriously though, after having walk/crawl out of the backcountry with a busted hip, I'm enrolling in a wilderness first-responder course. I keep remembering what it was like at the moment that I understood I wasn't able to walk, and I was 3 miles from the road. Now my pack looks like a battlefield trauma kit. Also, I carry more flashlights than I will ever need. Don't know what that says about me. There is being prepared, and then there is what I do. 99% of the time I won't need 3/4 of the gear I pack. Flying in to a camp is one way that I cut back on gear. The pilot weighs the stuff and after 50lb I have to start leaving things behind. It's 250lb max for passenger AND gear. I may have to go on a diet.

Link to comment

I'm not really a fan of firearms for people who don't know how to use them. Even casual pistol shooters may not be experienced enough to hit a moving target reliably. People frequently underestimate the speed and fury of a bear attack, and do not realize that they may not even get a chance to unholster their firearm and train it on their aggressor before they are attacked.

 

I am a longtime hunter, and have done much bear hunting in my area. I have seen a poorly hit animal get nothing but a surge of adrenalin - not something you want in an already dangerous situation. Leaving the pistols to experienced shooters is typically best.

 

It's important to remember that most bear encounters never even happen really, the bear can hear or smell you coming and they make tracks because they don't know what's headed their way.

 

Some bears are more curious than others and may stick around, if you run in to a bear that stands up on it's hind legs and sniffs the air and growls, it's not threatening you, it's trying to figure out what you are based on what it knows and how you react. Backing away slowly is best.

 

If a bear approaches, you can learn a few things from how it approaches. If it saunters over, sniffing away at the air moving from side to side occasionally, it's most likely just coming in for a closer look. I say most likely because there have been times where they've become aggressive, even after a non-aggressive approach, due to various circumstances. Best thing to do is stand still and stay calm. Very hard to stay calm when there's a 400 pound bear sniffing your butt! Trying to run or back away can provoke an attack. If you DO have a firearm, bear spray, knife, air horn, flare gun or whatever, now is the time to prepare yourself. Do not crouch though, many animals seem to be able to pick up on body language and will take this action as preparation to strike.

 

Some bears will turn away or veer off as they get close and make their own retreat to the forest, others may sniff around and leave if they've determined that you are neither a threat or a meal. Others may take a swing at you and it's decision time. Many books will say now is the time to assume the fetal position and play dead while covering your neck and head, and they may go away. I'm not too partial to that, so now would be the time for action in my estimation. You can also prepare yourself in advance if they come directly at you with their head low and ears up and pointed towards you - that is never a good sign and likely the bear has decided that you would make a tasty meal - the head down low is to improve balance and lower center of gravity for striking/mauling and is commonly seen before a bear attack.

 

There are some good choices out there as far as bear defence. Ultimately, nothing will put them down as quickly and as reliably as, say, and .458 Winchester Magnum, but not many people will carry such a cumbersome weapon on a hike. Large caliber handguns are also a good idea, again, the bigger the better. A compact personal defense 9mm is a poor choice compared to a .44 Magnum, but better than nothing, especially if you are experienced with it. Bear/pepper sprays have varying degrees of effectiveness, some have dimishined effects if a followup it required, and some take a precious few seconds to reach full intensity, but it is better than having a fist fight with a bear.

 

Since I do my hiking in deep wilderness I commonly carry a very large knife used for clearing foliage, it makes a comforting backup (I normally carry a rifle and do my deep hiking while hunting). Others may carry a backpack axe, a flare gun, an air horn, a pocket knife, there are a lot of options, even picking up a fist-sized rock is an option. Walking sticks too, especially if they are thick in diameter and about 4 feet long or more (protip: much like humans, bears noses are sensitive to touch and even a minor whack can make them tear up). Even travelling in pairs is an effective deterrent (especially if your partner doesn't run off!), but that makes firearms slightly less desirable in my opinion, you never know where the other is in a panic.

 

Long story short, guns are good in the right hands but not required in most situations. It really is a case of different strokes for different folks.

Link to comment

I love bear discussions. There is something about the image of being torn to pieces by a raging bundle of teeth and claws that takes us all back to some primitive fear. Wilderness, almost by definition, can kill us. Fortunately, for most of us, it wont happen. If it does, most likely it will be weather that does it, not a wild animal. When I have come across folks in trouble in the backcountry it seems they are mostly suffering from hypothermia, or dehydration, or both. When I have gotten into trouble, it has been one of those. If a polar bear wants to gnaw on me, he'll have to go through a great set of rain gear to get to me. I can't be called anti-gun. I have enough of them to be called an "enthusiast". I actually carried two of them when we were on Svalbard, in Norway. Just most of the time, I choose dry socks and a bit of extra food or fuel rather than my guns.

Link to comment

I love bear discussions. There is something about the image of being torn to pieces by a raging bundle of teeth and claws that takes us all back to some primitive fear. Wilderness, almost by definition, can kill us. Fortunately, for most of us, it wont happen. If it does, most likely it will be weather that does it, not a wild animal. When I have come across folks in trouble in the backcountry it seems they are mostly suffering from hypothermia, or dehydration, or both. When I have gotten into trouble, it has been one of those. If a polar bear wants to gnaw on me, he'll have to go through a great set of rain gear to get to me. I can't be called anti-gun. I have enough of them to be called an "enthusiast". I actually carried two of them when we were on Svalbard, in Norway. Just most of the time, I choose dry socks and a bit of extra food or fuel rather than my guns.

It is rare when it happens, but when it does, you almost certainly don't stand a chance.

Link to comment

It is rare when it happens, but when it does, you almost certainly don't stand a chance.

 

Au contraire, when it does happen (mauling), most maulings even by large bears result in minor injuries (again, referring to the black and species of Grizzly/Brown). Next in frequency are severe but not life-ending injuries, and then, and rarely, death. We stand a chance because the control lies with the bear, and the bear usually chooses not to press the advantage unless we threaten it.

 

That's how nature has been designed, but some people are uncomfortable with the fact that we are not always the dominant species, especially when on their domain. Another experience among wildlife officials that is becoming ever more evident with time, is that use of firearms in bear incidents doesn't protect the victim, due to a number of variables, may create a violent and threatening situation where none may have existed, and may create a danger for other unsuspecting travelers (if the bear escapes with a non-fatal wound).

 

The tragic killings happen from time to time. Sometimes we may know what happened and can learn, and sometimes, as the article that Totemlake presents above says, we will never know what happened. We use common sense and knowledge the same way we do when we get in a car and buckle up. We control what we can, but give ourselves over to the realization that in our daily lives there is always an eb and flow we have no control over. That's as true in the wilderness as it is on the street outside our homes.

Link to comment

Note: a gun only stops a rabid animal if your aim is good enough!

 

And in the hands of an inexperienced person, can be dangerous. Just ask Dick Cheney's hunting partners! (But give Cheney credit, the guy is a lawyer.) Unless you are truly comfortable with the idea of packing, and the extra trouble it can cause when crossing state and international boundries, meeting untrusting cops with attitudes, and the trips to a range to become truly proficient, I would recommend the repellents.

 

For the most part, the animals will try to avoid you. Only extreme hunger, rabies, or you messing with their young will change this most of the time. Make noise when hiking, keep a clean camp, and when confronted by an animal, don't turn and run but keep facing it, talking softly, and slowly back away.

Link to comment

Regarding the bear issue, I recommend reading the fact sheets at www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/fact_sheets.htm. This is excellent information, supported by research, and specifically addresses the gun issue (summary: guns are a bad idea).

 

- a person’s chance of incurring serious injury from

a charging grizzly doubles when bullets are fired versus when bear spray is used.

 

Missing is both of those compared to using neither.

Link to comment

I think the question is what do you prepare for? I can only carry around so much stuff, so I pack for the things most likely to be an issue. Water, check. Shelter, check. Dry clothing, check. Knife, check. Food, cookware, stove and fuel, check. Map and compass, check. And on down the list. At some point, you have to ask whether what you are carrying around will HELP with a problem you are LIKELY to encounter. That copy of "Atlas Shrugged" might seem like a good way to kill the boredom of being stuck in a tent during a three-day blow, but do really want to drag that doorstop all over Gods green earth. (I suppose you could use it for fire starter -- apologies to all you Ayn Rand fans out there).

Link to comment

A tale of bears, guns and Alaska

 

A man wakes up one morning in Alaska to find a bear on

his roof. So he looks in the yellow pages and sure

enough, there's an ad for "Bear Removers."

 

He calls the number, and the bear remover says he'll

be over in 30 minutes.

 

The bear remover arrives, and gets out of his van.

He's got a ladder, a baseball bat, a shotgun and a mean old pit bull.

 

"What are you going to do," the homeowner asks?

 

"I'm going to put this ladder up against the roof, then I'm going to go up there and knock the bear off the roof with this baseball bat. When the bear falls off, the pit bull is trained to grab his testicles and not let go.

The bear will then be subdued enough for me to put him in the cage in the back of the van."

 

He hands the shotgun to the homeowner.

 

"What's the shotgun for?" asks the homeowner.

 

"If the bear knocks me off the roof, shoot the dog."

Link to comment

Head a couple miles west from my house and bears have been spotted. Head east, north or south there are no bears but there are two other dangers - rattlesnakes - no gun needed, just give them room. The second and by far the most dangerous are meth labs. In that case you better have a gun and hope that you aren't spotted because most likely you'll be outgunned. Yes, I have a CCW permit and I do carry in the desert.

Edited by geospyder
Link to comment

Unless you are truly comfortable with the idea of packing...

...and understand the seriousness and responsibility of it -- I completely agree.

 

Recently took a firearm safety class (a good idea even as a refresher now and again). A woman in the class said she wanted to get her pistol permit so she could carry one in her purse for self protection, but that she'd never use it and would only carry it so she could tell someone she had a gun if she were accosted.

 

Another fellow who was going to apply for his pistol permit for self protection said he'd only shoot someone to injure them.

 

100% clear cases of people who should not carry a firearm because they do not understand the seriousness and responsibility of doing so. It is called "DEADLY physical force" for a darn good reason.

Link to comment

My log from yesterday's caching:

 

April 25 by geospyder (2413 found)

I drove over from Pole Line on the dirt road NOT the gravel/paved one. I parked the Jeep next to one of the power poles and then started hiking over to the cache. I heard a number of gun shots and saw smoke from the house to the south. I was hoping that they weren't shooting in my direction. Out comes a guy on an ATV and he suggests that I leave the area because the owners of the house to the south like shooting into the federal land and they don't want to hit anyone. Sounded like a veiled threat to go away even though it wasn't their land. I told him that I'd be out of there within 30 minutes so just hold off shooting. That was a strange encounter - just beware. Took nothing - left nothing. Thanks for the hide and the excitement.

Link to comment

 

 

I guess he was curious about the hunters but decided they weren't good food and went elsewhere looking for a meal. Later I met the guys who made the footprints in the snow and found they were unaware they had been stalked by a cat.

 

Folks mention "habituated" bears. I've often wondered it cougars might get this way too with hunters. Think about it. If a cougar kills some prey what is the first thing they eat on that kill? The inards. What's the first thing a hunter does with his kill? He field dresses the animal and carries off the carcass. Sounds like easy lunch for a cat. If you were a smart cat you'd just follow hunters.

Link to comment

 

 

I guess he was curious about the hunters but decided they weren't good food and went elsewhere looking for a meal. Later I met the guys who made the footprints in the snow and found they were unaware they had been stalked by a cat.

 

Folks mention "habituated" bears. I've often wondered it cougars might get this way too with hunters. Think about it. If a cougar kills some prey what is the first thing they eat on that kill? The inards. What's the first thing a hunter does with his kill? He field dresses the animal and carries off the carcass. Sounds like easy lunch for a cat. If you were a smart cat you'd just follow hunters.

Cougars like any other animal can become habituated to people. They have at times here in Washington not show any fear of humans and have been known to stalk and attack. I have a neighbor who was one such victim. He got lucky and got away with a torn jacket before the cat was chased off.

Link to comment

Speaking to no one in general. Have you ever heard the term "do unto others as you want done to yourself" With that in mind lets learn a lesson from nature. Most animals, and again I say most animals steer well clear of humans, they know we are coming and get out of the road long before we ever know we are there. The ones we catch by surprise have a flight or fight mechanism, with the first being flight.

 

I think we should all take precautions in nauture and wear bear bells where we need to in order to give advanced warning to animals that we are there. One bennifit of group hiking is the amount of talking that lets the animals know were are there, not the idea that more people tells the animal they are outnumbered and should run.

 

For the animals we catch of guard, we should do the same, after all we have the same flight or fight built into us. If we can get out of the situation then do it, and do if first, that would be flight. If we need to stand and fight again be like an animal, they ususally only do enough to disable you or show you who is boss, there not out to kill you. Like wise we can do just enough to show the animal who is going to win. If that means use a gun (for a warning shot I assume)/pepper spray or maybe your a bear whisperer and talk the bear into sitting down and eating a PB&J with you.

I'm not against guns but I think for most people, well I should say some people having a gun short circuts the natural wiring in our mind and they skip from flight to shoot. There is nothing wrong with being prepared but I think our minds are our on worse enemies. You can work yourself up to be scared of anything when your alone, and that leads to being stupid. You can do other things to help with animal avoidance. I love music but dont listen to it on the trail so I can be alert to animal nosies, rattle from a snake for example, so I can detect them early and avoid them before it turns into a situation. Speaking of weapons as tools, I think your brain is your best tool... if you know how to use it!

I dont carry a gun because they are heavy and the ammo is heavy plus a lot of trails where I'm from prohibit firearms. I try not to take anything in my pack that doesnt serve at least two useful purposes. To me a gun has one, protection. Any other purposes for a gun seems to be doubled by something I already have in my pack. For example to signal people or start a fire. I have a signal mirror, whistle, and matchs. So I leave the gun at home where it is probably needed more for my wife to protect herself while I'm on the trail then for my protection from bigfoot!

 

Im sure some people wont like what I have wrote and your allowed to have your opinion, this is mine. Good day

Link to comment

Speaking to no one in general. Have you ever heard the term "do unto others as you want done to yourself" With that in mind lets learn a lesson from nature. Most animals, and again I say most animals steer well clear of humans, they know we are coming and get out of the road long before we ever know we are there. The ones we catch by surprise have a flight or fight mechanism, with the first being flight.

 

I think we should all take precautions in nauture and wear bear bells where we need to in order to give advanced warning to animals that we are there. One bennifit of group hiking is the amount of talking that lets the animals know were are there, not the idea that more people tells the animal they are outnumbered and should run.

 

For the animals we catch of guard, we should do the same, after all we have the same flight or fight built into us. If we can get out of the situation then do it, and do if first, that would be flight. If we need to stand and fight again be like an animal, they ususally only do enough to disable you or show you who is boss, there not out to kill you. Like wise we can do just enough to show the animal who is going to win. If that means use a gun (for a warning shot I assume)/pepper spray or maybe your a bear whisperer and talk the bear into sitting down and eating a PB&J with you.

I'm not against guns but I think for most people, well I should say some people having a gun short circuts the natural wiring in our mind and they skip from flight to shoot. There is nothing wrong with being prepared but I think our minds are our on worse enemies. You can work yourself up to be scared of anything when your alone, and that leads to being stupid. You can do other things to help with animal avoidance. I love music but dont listen to it on the trail so I can be alert to animal nosies, rattle from a snake for example, so I can detect them early and avoid them before it turns into a situation. Speaking of weapons as tools, I think your brain is your best tool... if you know how to use it!

I dont carry a gun because they are heavy and the ammo is heavy plus a lot of trails where I'm from prohibit firearms. I try not to take anything in my pack that doesnt serve at least two useful purposes. To me a gun has one, protection. Any other purposes for a gun seems to be doubled by something I already have in my pack. For example to signal people or start a fire. I have a signal mirror, whistle, and matchs. So I leave the gun at home where it is probably needed more for my wife to protect herself while I'm on the trail then for my protection from bigfoot!

 

Im sure some people wont like what I have wrote and your allowed to have your opinion, this is mine. Good day

 

I'm going to reinforce the sentiment that education is the best tool. There's nothing more that looks like food than something running from a predator.

 

You can not outrun a bear and you can not outrun a cougar.

 

You can face down a cougar.

In the unlikely event that you do encounter a cougar, behave in a way that will convince the cougar that you are not prey, but a potential predator—or at least a formidable adversary. Potentially aggressive cougars have been driven away by people who make a ruckus and fight back. Here are steps to take to avoid a dangerous interaction:

 

Maintain eye contact at all times.

NEVER turn your back, run, act submissive, or play dead.

Pick up children without bending over or looking away.

Speak loudly and firmly, but not hysterically.

Throw rocks and sticks.

Use pepper spray.

If the cougar attacks, FIGHT while yelling and maintaining your footing

 

Bears require several different techniques depending on the situation which best described here and echoed across many other sites including USGS. Kodiak bears are known not to shy away when they hear bear bells. Brown Bears will charge you if they feel the slightest threatened. Sows with cubs are the most dangerous. If you use pepper spray, be sure to get out of the area fast. Bears, llike people, don't like it in their eyes, but they are still attracted to the spice and have been known to tear up float plane pontoons and other items when there was bear spray on it. In otherwords, don't use it like a bug repellant and spray it on yourself and your goods. Keep your distance when you spot one. Back away slowly and speak softly to them. Do not turn your back on them and do not look them in the eye.

The key thing I'll echo here is to be aware of your surroundings. They look all cute and warm and fuzzy, but they are still very dangerous creatures

Link to comment

Echo TotemLake. Education is indeed the best. My philosophy is to treat the outdoors as I do travel. Don't act like a tourist. Find out what I need to know in order to act like I know what I'm doing there, and the locals are less likely to rip me off.

 

Bear behavior is different among species and between individuals, but one thing that is common to all predators on earth: they have an instinctive sense of cost-and-benefit to a pursue or not to pursue decision. No predator, since his life is about survival, will take unnecessary risk of injury. They will all react defensively and aggressively if threatened and to protect their young. The larger bears can also be especially aggressive in defending food (all predators are, but the lower on the food chain the quicker they will abandon a kill). In our ignorance, we may stumble onto situations and actually make them worse by subsequent actions. If we prepare with knowledge, use common sense, we can avoid most of these situations. in surprise situations, or when approached or charged, (and spray is good to have to deter the larger bears, I understand it will work on cougars as well), we need to make sure we communicate that we are not a threat, and happy to give the animal his space, but at the same time, we belong there and are not intimidated. We should consult the wealth of reliable info out there regarding the different options for different species of bear. Running is a dinner bell. Spray works well because it's like skunk or porcupine natural defenses - it makes something about you udesireable and painful; but, it is not an outright physical attack and that allows the bear the preferred option to just leave you alone. Anything you do that makes a large bear think he must fight puts you in trouble.

 

Cougars more than bears depend on stealth, once their cover is blown you can face them down. Predators posture to show dominance, territory etc., and by standing our ground with a cat and showing no fear we posture in a way that says to Mr. Cat, it aint gonna be worth your while to tangle with something that just might bite back. Go find a rabbit. Again, being just confident but not aggressive.

Link to comment

I heartily agree with what has been expressed here with regard to knowing how to handle wildlife encounters with the least amount of fuss and muss to both the animal and yourself. Walking away from such encounters without an altercation happening is always the best outcome. As was said elsewhere, your brain is a tool too -- be sure to use it!

 

If that means use a gun (for a warning shot I assume)...

Warning shots or shooting to wound are almost never a good idea. Every bullet you fire you own -- along with anyone/anything it strikes. Using a firearm is the use of DEADLY Physical Force, and should only be used with the full understanding of what that means and with the full intention of using it. In most cases warning shots or shooting to wound are not valid uses of DEADLY Physical Force.

 

Television, movies, books, etc have done great harm to the seriousness and responsibility that goes along with using a firearm.

 

I'm not against guns but I think for most people, well I should say some people having a gun short circuts the natural wiring in our mind and they skip from flight to shoot.

Such people should not be operating firearms. I am actually appalled at the lack of training required to own, carry, or operate a firearm -- especailly pistols. While many people do get some training there are also lots who do not, and there are way too many folks who get their pistol permits with no serious consideration given to the responsibilities and duties of carrying a pistol. There are so many good training courses available I do not understand why so many folks do not take them.

Link to comment

I'm going to reinforce the sentiment that education is the best tool. There's nothing more that looks like food than something running from a predator.

 

You can not outrun a bear and you can not outrun a cougar.

 

You can face down a cougar.

In the unlikely event that you do encounter a cougar, behave in a way that will convince the cougar that you are not prey, but a potential predator—or at least a formidable adversary. Potentially aggressive cougars have been driven away by people who make a ruckus and fight back. Here are steps to take to avoid a dangerous interaction:

 

Maintain eye contact at all times.

NEVER turn your back, run, act submissive, or play dead.

Pick up children without bending over or looking away.

Speak loudly and firmly, but not hysterically.

Throw rocks and sticks.

Use pepper spray.

If the cougar attacks, FIGHT while yelling and maintaining your footing

 

Bears require several different techniques depending on the situation which best described here and echoed across many other sites including USGS. Kodiak bears are known not to shy away when they hear bear bells. Brown Bears will charge you if they feel the slightest threatened. Sows with cubs are the most dangerous. If you use pepper spray, be sure to get out of the area fast. Bears, llike people, don't like it in their eyes, but they are still attracted to the spice and have been known to tear up float plane pontoons and other items when there was bear spray on it. In otherwords, don't use it like a bug repellant and spray it on yourself and your goods. Keep your distance when you spot one. Back away slowly and speak softly to them. Do not turn your back on them and do not look them in the eye.

The key thing I'll echo here is to be aware of your surroundings. They look all cute and warm and fuzzy, but they are still very dangerous creatures

 

I don't need bells everything should be able to hear me wheezing and coughing along the trail (especially uphill).

I heard that with a cougar you can try to make yourself look bigger by grabbing the hem of your (open) shirt or jacket and holding it up in the air over your head (not covering your head) with your arms out (making like a sail). Makes you look bigger.

One of the local sports/hunter writers said that Kodiak bears have come to associate a gun with food. When they hear a gun go off it's just like a dinner bell. They know a hunter has made a kill and they come running to see what's for dinner.

Link to comment

I'm going to reinforce the sentiment that education is the best tool. There's nothing more that looks like food than something running from a predator.

 

You can not outrun a bear and you can not outrun a cougar.

 

You can face down a cougar.

In the unlikely event that you do encounter a cougar, behave in a way that will convince the cougar that you are not prey, but a potential predator—or at least a formidable adversary. Potentially aggressive cougars have been driven away by people who make a ruckus and fight back. Here are steps to take to avoid a dangerous interaction:

 

Maintain eye contact at all times.

NEVER turn your back, run, act submissive, or play dead.

Pick up children without bending over or looking away.

Speak loudly and firmly, but not hysterically.

Throw rocks and sticks.

Use pepper spray.

If the cougar attacks, FIGHT while yelling and maintaining your footing

 

Bears require several different techniques depending on the situation which best described here and echoed across many other sites including USGS. Kodiak bears are known not to shy away when they hear bear bells. Brown Bears will charge you if they feel the slightest threatened. Sows with cubs are the most dangerous. If you use pepper spray, be sure to get out of the area fast. Bears, llike people, don't like it in their eyes, but they are still attracted to the spice and have been known to tear up float plane pontoons and other items when there was bear spray on it. In otherwords, don't use it like a bug repellant and spray it on yourself and your goods. Keep your distance when you spot one. Back away slowly and speak softly to them. Do not turn your back on them and do not look them in the eye.

The key thing I'll echo here is to be aware of your surroundings. They look all cute and warm and fuzzy, but they are still very dangerous creatures

 

I don't need bells everything should be able to hear me wheezing and coughing along the trail (especially uphill).

I heard that with a cougar you can try to make yourself look bigger by grabbing the hem of your (open) shirt or jacket and holding it up in the air over your head (not covering your head) with your arms out (making like a sail). Makes you look bigger.

One of the local sports/hunter writers said that Kodiak bears have come to associate a gun with food. When they hear a gun go off it's just like a dinner bell. They know a hunter has made a kill and they come running to see what's for dinner.

 

another strong reason for silencers... also, you don't annoy the neighbors that way.... :-)

 

however, i've spent a good deal of time in the woods, lot's of it on the kern plateau, and have

never crossed paths with a bear when i was on my dirtbike.... they hate the things, along

with many hikers, come to think of it... the closest i've ever been to a wild bear was about 12 feet,

and that was my fault, not the bear's... i was walking along like a total dipsnit, not paying any

attention whatsoever, and when i looked up, there he was, watching me... i made an immediate

left turn off the trail, climbed over a fallen tree, and headed back the way i'd came... the

critter was quite happy to let me go.

 

so, based on my experience, the safest way to navigate in the woods is on a loud, noisy dirt

bike... until the hunter you've pissed off shoots you off of it, anyway...

 

one early morning, while sleeping, offroading on big bear mountain, i had two 30 cal. holes put

thru the side of my van, about 2 feet above me. seems that there were 3 fellows communing

with nature a couple hundred yards away, and were shooting into a rock wash. i don't know if it

was a richochet, or not, as they were yahooing and having a grand old time, but *two* richochets

hitting the same target one right after the other seems like long odds to me.

 

about 10 years ago, i spent 6 weeks in louisiana, in a cabin in the bayous, with a 10' boat with

an outboard for the communte to the real world. the cabin owner made sure that i was properly

armed, for two reasons, the lesser of which was alligators. it was explained to me that if one

headed towards the boat, to shoot it, as a large gator can easily turn over a 10' aluminum

fishing boat, and you then become lunch. don't know if that's true or not, and only saw 3 gators

in 6 weeks when i was in the boat, as they don't like the outboard motor very much, and stay

out of your way. but the main reason was self protection from other people. "people disappear

out there, make sure you're not one of them" i was told.

 

the other time i was told to leave the canoli, take the gun, was canoing down the boca chitta

river in missisippi. the reason given was: "boy, this here's mississippi, not calif. everybody packs."

i guess he'd never been to south central LA...

 

anyway, paddling down the river, with hanging moss, and the guy in the front canoe playing

the soundtrack from "deliverance" on his tape player, it was abundantly clear that our biggest

risk came from other people with guns, and turning your canoe over in the rapids.

 

everybody had a gun. and everybody we met was polite, 'cause everyone had a gun... it's a

strange world.

 

so, it probably sounds like i hate guns. not the case. i've been shooting since i was 7, and

one of the things i really liked doing was long range accuracy shooting, with the 6mm PPC.

 

being able to hit animal crackers at 200 meters is fun. i always liked using the elephants from

the box, they were a little bigger. not many people can hit a dime two football fields away

10 times in a row without missing. i can, on a good day.

 

so, guns are ok, i don't care much for some of the people who carry them. and someone who's

afraid, and carrying a gun, is a formula for disaster.

 

better to look at the fear, instead.

 

my experience is that we tend to attract what we fear. that may sound like 2 scoops of

new age BS, but that doesn't make it untrue.

 

a friend of mine showed me how it works... he used to teach firewalking, and explained

the principles when he taught me how to firewalk.

 

as he put it... "it's not about firewalking. it's about learning how much fear controls your life".

 

my experience has been that you can walk barefoot, slowly, on oak coals, for about forty feet,

without feeling any heat, discomfort, or suffering any injury. the temperature of the coals was

about 650 degrees.

 

the only requirement is that you be in a mental state that is completely free from fear when you

do this.

 

however, back to the gun question.... i seldom go anywhere that i feel a gun is needed, but if

i do feel it's warranted, i bring one. that hasn't been the case in a long time.... if i really need

to bring a gun, it's probably either to defend myself against a frightened person with a gun,

or to bag my limit in animal crackers.

 

but i don't have much fear, either.

 

FulThrotl

Link to comment

my experience is that we tend to attract what we fear. that may sound like 2 scoops of

new age BS, but that doesn't make it untrue.

FulThrotl

 

Wow! That is neither New Age nor BS. My brother in law has recently become something of a gun nut and loves to share the "Armed Citizen" stuff from the NRA mag. For those not familiar, this column chronicles dozens of episodes each month of ordinary citizens blowing away or otherwise backing off bad guys with heat that they are legally packing. They love the stories of 90 year-old grannies holding off a couple of young punks with a pearl-handled 38 until the local cops came to make the arrest. I have no doubt that these stories are true. Read enough of these, and someone like me, who does not own a firearm (and probably never will) feels a little foolish.

 

But I keep suspecting that the folks who get themselves in the fix of having to defend themselves with a firearm perhaps may be subconsciously putting themselves at a higher chance of being in a situation where you would need to defend yourself. I grew up on the south side of Chicago and went to a high school in a rough part of town. You develop a spidey sense -- you become very aware of your surroundings -- you pay attention which side of the street you need to be on -- you carry yourself appropriately. This all becomes second-nature. I suspect that if I was packing heat I would have been more likely to have gotten into a confrontation where guns would have come out, maybe used. I suspect there are more than a few folks who own and carry guns who figure that they can check their street-smarts at the door. They then are more likely to boldly blunder themselves into tough spots.

 

My advice: unless you are hunting or target shooting, leave the GD guns at home. Don't go by yourself. Check with locals if going into terra incognito: they will know where you are at risk from wild beasts and unpleasant people, and then skip those places. Know the REAL risks of being in wilderness and prepare for those. Don't even think about conceal-carry until you have been trained in how to use the gun that you own AND have training in armed self-defense. Lastly and most important, GET OUT AND ENJOY WILD PLACES. Most of the wild places around can be survived and enjoyed by even the most ignorant and incompetent.

 

If you doubt this, google Theodore Roosevelt and check out his get-up when he first arrived in the Dakota's to try his hand at ranching and "become a man." He was scrawny, asthmatic, sporting coke-bottle glasses and dressed in garb more appropriate to the Opry than the Dakota Badlands. Yes, he came armed, but with a couple of the same pearl-handled 38's that the 90 year-old granny used to hold off the punks in the Bronx.

 

I fear that the saddest part of this whole string is that the OP still has not gotten out into the wild and is logging nothing but LPC's.

Link to comment

In NY....I wouldn't be concerned about wolf or cougar at all. IF they're there (anywhere east of the Mississippi or south of Michigan's UP is debatable for cougars, and wolves don't venture far from MI/WI/MN, either), they're out in such low numbers that you could spend lifetimes in the woods where they live and never see evidence...let alone an actual individual.

 

Either cougar or coyote caught in downtown Detroit in the past year. It was a big story at the time. Google +Detroit +Coyote.

 

Rabbits, too, can be nasty and dangerous. The infamous rabbit with 'sharp, pointy teeth' in Monty Python's Search for the Holy Grail was not portrayed as vicious for no reason. Rabbits are highly territorial and they will scratch and bite viciously to protect their territory.

 

You're kidding, right? I can't get within 30 feet of the wild rabbits here and they run away. I'm more concerned about yellow jacket wasps, since I encounter them on a daily basis. I even picked up a baby rabbit, and it SQUEALED. (I didn't know rabbits could make a noise.) Mom was 30 ft away but did not approach. I've flushed a rabbit within 4 ft but he was hidden, hoping I wouldn't get closer. Then --BOOM!-- he runs away.

Link to comment

...

Best advice of all is hike with a buddy. Two will scare off most animals better than one. Plus if something does happen (More likely you will poke yourself with a stick). your buddy can give first aid, or get help. Oh and if you both have pepper spray the one can get it out and use it while the Cougar gnaws on the neck of the other.

 

And pick a buddy that runs slower than you do. :laughing:

 

Like the movie said: "I don't have to out run the bear, I just have to out run You!"... :wub: :wub:

Link to comment

 

You're kidding, right? I can't get within 30 feet of the wild rabbits here and they run away. I'm more concerned about yellow jacket wasps, since I encounter them on a daily basis. I even picked up a baby rabbit, and it SQUEALED. (I didn't know rabbits could make a noise.) Mom was 30 ft away but did not approach. I've flushed a rabbit within 4 ft but he was hidden, hoping I wouldn't get closer. Then --BOOM!-- he runs away.

Rabbit have very sharp claws and teeth and when cornered,

.
Link to comment

The number one thing you can bring is situational awareness. Know what's going on around you. If you want an actual physical item...a very loud whistle works wonders.

 

What is a whistle supposed to do against a bear, or mountain lion?

 

The pea less whistle is best used to direct S&R toward your location.

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...