Oh no, another weapon question!

[Luckless]

I've never really done any hiking through the backwoods because of fear of what I might meet.

In my area I have coyote packs, dog packs, wild pigs, bear, rabid animals and possibly wolf and mountain lion. My chance of running into any of these is probably slim, but just once would be more than enough.

With all the hiking I've been doing into the state forestlands with geocaching I've been considering getting a gun, just so that I'd be prepared, but I'm not really a gun kind of person. Some people on this website have said they carry pepper spray or animal repellant.

Can anyone here tell me how you go about obtaining and using it. Sounds like there are varieties that can deter a grizzly. That sounds like my kind of deterent (although I understand you have to be smart enough not to it use it when standing down wind and I'm not always smart). Would anyone know if it would stop a rabid animal? (A gun cetrtainly would stop them.)

Where would I get this type of spray? I believe I heard that if you carry mace you need some type of certification to do so. Would you need that in order to buy and use these sprays?

[magellan315]

Bear Spray

 

Take a look in testimonials, "other animals". If it works on a bear it work effectively on anything the same size or smaller. The smaller personal sized products are designed to spray as a fog or cone pattern instead of stream like some of the Mace products. You'll ned to check with your local police department if you need to be licensed or if it si legal to purchase. It varies from state to state and local counties.

Edited September 10, 2007 by magellan315

[mtbikernate]

My personal opinion is that you're probably a little overly worried. I've spent countless hours in the woods, many of which have been miles from civilization, and some of which have been in the dark with KNOWN populations of coyotes, black bears, wolves, and mountain lions. I've never carried a firearm, and only rarely have carried pepper spray, but I have always at least carried a big stick and/or a pocket knife. I've never had need to use any of that stuff.

 

The only animal in the list I have yet to encounter is a wolf. I have encountered bears and a mountain lion. The bears were terrified of me, and the mountain lion freaked me out...but all was well. The coyotes have mostly ignored me or watched from a distance.

 

While rabid animals are out there, you're highly unlikely to run into one...even more unlikely than running into coyotes or bears. You're probably more likely to come across a rabid bat than anything else...and neither a firearm nor pepper spray will be much use (you won't see the bat from far enough away to do anything about it).

 

I can't say whether pepper spray would have much effect on a rabid raccoon or coyote, to be honest. Rabies does some strange things, and that may well not have been tested. Pepper spray probably is going to be your most effective option against a group of feral dogs. If these really are present in your area, then they would probably be your best argument for pepper spray.

 

You should be able to buy it at most outdoor stores. Anything that sells hunting gear would be a good option. Sometimes, camping stores carry it...but sometimes not, even in bear country. Chances are, if the camping store sells bear bag or bear canister equipment for food storage, they'll have bear spray.

[+edscott]

My personal opinion is that you're probably a little overly worried. I've spent countless hours in the woods, many of which have been miles from civilization, and some of which have been in the dark with KNOWN populations of coyotes, black bears, wolves, and mountain lions. I've never carried a firearm, and only rarely have carried pepper spray, but I have always at least carried a big stick and/or a pocket knife. I've never had need to use any of that stuff..............

 

Gotta agree. If you have to carry all that stuff to feel secure in the woods maybe the woods isn't your cup of tea. Sort of like learning to swim.. jump in and try it. Once you get used to the water it's fine.

[Dinoprophet]

The best protection is to always hike with a buddy.....

 

 

 

 

....who runs slower than you!

[Luckless]

Used to have the Appalacian Trail as one of my must do's on my life list, but I always was a little too apprehensive of putting myself in dangerous situations. Probably too old now to huff and puff my way along that trail, but I don't want to miss out on any more hiking opportunities because I'm apprehensive. I'm hoping that being prepared for trouble is what will give me the confidence to get out there.

 

Thanks for the link Megellan

 

Dinoprophet, I am the slow one.

[+Renegade Knight]

Depending on your state, you can buy the pepper spray online or at a sporting goods store.

 

Of the animals on your list I'd be wary of the Boar, Bear (Grizzly in my country), Cougar, and Wolf Pack and of those...the Boar most of all though I don't like the Bear's either. The Cougar if it's going to get you will have gotten you by the time you get your pepper spray out. The rest may give you enough warning.

 

Not on your list is that I'd hate to be on the wrong end of a Badger or Wolverine.

 

Rabies...the above post nails it. hard to say what that's going to do for an animal.

 

Best advice of all is hike with a buddy. Two will scare off most animals better than one. Plus if something does happen (More likely you will poke yourself with a stick). your buddy can give first aid, or get help. Oh and if you both have pepper spray the one can get it out and use it while the Cougar gnaws on the neck of the other.

Edited September 12, 2007 by Renegade Knight

[bogleman]

MK4, point and spray away. Use caution in groups & windy conditions - aim for the eyes/mouth, wait for the gasp reflex and spray them again Works good on most normal folks & critters, gotta be quick, they sell belt cases as well.

 

When you get bored just spray some on your food to spice things up a bit - really.....

[+TotemLake]

MK4, point and spray away. Use caution in groups & windy conditions - aim for the eyes/mouth, wait for the gasp reflex and spray them again Works good on most normal folks & critters, gotta be quick, they sell belt cases as well.

 

When you get bored just spray some on your food to spice things up a bit - really.....

Can't stress this enough. There is anecdotal evidence the bears like the spice and will come back to the odor to root for it after they get past the initial sting. Try to avoid getting it on yourself and others as well as any equipment you want to take with you. Once used, take the quickest exit to civilization and advise the ranger.

[MarcusArelius]

...

Best advice of all is hike with a buddy. Two will scare off most animals better than one. Plus if something does happen (More likely you will poke yourself with a stick). your buddy can give first aid, or get help. Oh and if you both have pepper spray the one can get it out and use it while the Cougar gnaws on the neck of the other.

 

And pick a buddy that runs slower than you do.

[mtbikernate]

In NY....I wouldn't be concerned about wolf or cougar at all. IF they're there (anywhere east of the Mississippi or south of Michigan's UP is debatable for cougars, and wolves don't venture far from MI/WI/MN, either), they're out in such low numbers that you could spend lifetimes in the woods where they live and never see evidence...let alone an actual individual.

 

The suggestion of hiking with at least one partner is probably the best. Chances are, multiple people in a hiking party will be noisy and/or smelly enough to drive away anything you don't want to be around. The notable exception being habituated bears. If habituated bears have been documented in said area, then pepper spray would be a good idea in addition to hiking with a group.

 

If we're going to add animals to the list, let's not forget deer! Last fall, an elderly couple in PA were gored within a very close margin of death by an ornery (and probably horny) buck. Deer can be nasty when they feel threatened, and especially if they have a numerical advantage or if they're riled up by hormones.

 

I've seen some aggressive woodchucks in my day, too. Those sharp rodent incisors could do some real damage to your ankles if you made one angry. I saw one attempt to attack the bumper of a car once, so they're not afraid of something bigger.

 

Rabbits, too, can be nasty and dangerous. The infamous rabbit with 'sharp, pointy teeth' in Monty Python's Search for the Holy Grail was not portrayed as vicious for no reason. Rabbits are highly territorial and they will scratch and bite viciously to protect their territory.

 

My above comments are only slightly tongue-in-cheek. All of those examples are indeed true. ANY animal can be dangerous if it wants to be...even the smallest, cutest, most harmless-looking small fuzzy rodent can injure you rather seriously if you're a bonehead and provoke it. The point I'm trying to make is that the forest is indeed a dangerous place. However, it's no more dangerous than the urban environment most of us spend the majority of our time in. Muggers, gangs, drunk drivers, people on cell phones in their cars, semi drivers doing speed, the meth lab next door...these are dangers in the urban environment that are no less dangerous than wildlife in the woods. Yet, most of us are pretty blase about them. It's more risky driving a car to work every day than taking a walk in the woods.

 

Of all the wildlife discussed in this thread, the ONLY one that I would consider carrying extra gear for protection would be a bear, in particular habituated bears. In general, wildlife would much rather run away from you than to confront you. The exception would be wildlife that associates people with food. For mountain lions, there's not much you can do except hike in groups. If a mountain lion wants to hunt you, it will. They will come at you from behind, so you won't be able to pre-emptively spray it with your pepper spray. If you see one and look it in the eye, you don't have much to worry about. It has lost the element of surprise and won't waste the energy or risk injury by prey prepared to fight back. Wolves generally avoid people, too. I can't say I've heard of too many people being attacked by them. Folks hike Isle Royale every year and you don't hear of wolves going after tons of hikers. Just give the wolves their space, don't provoke them, and keep your food secure. For all wildlife, don't harass the young. Nearly anything will attack you if you're too close to its babies.

 

Habituated bears, though, will go after a hiker looking for food in a backpack. That's the only thing I'd be concerned with, especially in NY.

 

Oh yeah, a hiking staff or trekking poles work for more than just balance. They can be used in defense against wildlife.

[+Renegade Knight]

...If we're going to add animals to the list, let's not forget deer!...

 

Good point. Last weekend we were fishing in the Copper Basin and I came across three moose. Two Calves and the mom. They wandered away from me and I gave them a wide berth. Just as I passed them my daughters were coming up the creek with our two dogs. Border Collies that love to herd but have zero training. I radioed them to get the dogs back before it became an issue. Last thing I wanted was for my two dogs to do what they do beast and freak out the moose by trying to herd them.

 

In the end you have to know your area and what the animals are like. Around here deer come out after midnight and make the drive home a bit more dangerouse if you are driving late.

[Luckless]

If we're going to add animals to the list, let's not forget deer! Last fall, an elderly couple in PA were gored within a very close margin of death by an ornery (and probably horny) buck. Deer can be nasty when they feel threatened, and especially if they have a numerical advantage or if they're riled up by hormones.

.

.

.

.

.

Oh yeah, a hiking staff or trekking poles work for more than just balance. They can be used in defense against wildlife.

 

Interesting you should mention that. I was out caching last year during hunting season. I was using a wood staff, banging it around in the brush, against trees and between rocks listening for the charateristic clunk of an ammo can. When I looked up there was a young buck coming down the trail. His horns had several points and I became somewhat alarmed that he might be in rut. I thought perhaps he had mistaken the sound of my wood pole hitting against a tree as another buck knocking his horns against the trees. We both stood there looking at each other wondering what to do. Usually my first reaction is to get a tree between me and the animal, but the area was swampy and rocky. I turned my back to the deer and started toward the trees making lots of "people" noises and not acting threatening. When I turned back he was gone. That was a fun cache.

 

Interesting to learn that bear spray can attract as well as repel the animals.

[+ironman114]

...For mountain lions, there's not much you can do except hike in groups. If a mountain lion wants to hunt you, it will. They will come at you from behind, so you won't be able to pre-emptively spray it with your pepper spray. If you see one and look it in the eye, you don't have much to worry about. It has lost the element of surprise and won't waste the energy or risk injury by prey prepared to fight back...

 

I have seen cougar (mountain lion) tracks in the snow following two elk hunters ahead of it. The cat turned off and went down a side road and I followed its tracks but when it led me into dense underbrush and second growth trees I turned around and walked back to the road I was on and continued up it. A few hundred yards down that road the cat returned and started following the hunter footsteps again.

 

When the hunters turned off the road and onto a side trail the cat followed them still. I continued on up the road and after a couple of corners the cats tracks came down the hill and across the road I was on.

 

I guess he was curious about the hunters but decided they weren't good food and went elsewhere looking for a meal. Later I met the guys who made the footprints in the snow and found they were unaware they had been stalked by a cat.

[mtbikernate]

I, too, have been unknowingly (at the time) stalked by a cougar. Upon exiting the area, I followed the same cow path and saw fresh cougar tracks on top of the tracks I had made just a couple hours prior. I was hiking with a couple other people at the time, as well. On that occasion, I did NOT have a hiking stick, although in hindsight I probably should have.

 

I am just not terribly convinced that pepper spray is the most effective defense against wildlife (although a can of bear spray will work wonders against a human attacker). I do think that a stout stick is far more effective. You can swing it around, beat underbrush with it, and use it to make yourself look absolutely insane (and therefore unwise to try to attack). If an animal does decide to go for you, you can use it as a weapon to flog said animal to the point that it leaves you alone.

 

I also think that the human ability to throw debris is exceptionally useful in such a situation. Rocks and sticks become projectile weapons as well as a distraction.

 

Oh, on another note...yet another person has been gored by a deer in PA. I read just this past weekend that a biologist working for an engineering firm studying wetlands was gored by a buck. It's a bit early for the rut here, so I'm not sure what was going on.

[magellan315]

I am just not terribly convinced that pepper spray is the most effective defense against wildlife

 

Check out the Bear Testimonials on the UDAP website, they make bear spray. There is also a section for other animals, this stuff works. Not only is it powerful but it sprays in a either a fog or cone shaped pattern. Where as most personal sprays shoot a stream and you have to hit the target. With a fog or cone pattern you don't have to hit what your aiming at just get it close.

Edited September 19, 2007 by magellan315

[+TotemLake]

 

I am just not terribly convinced that pepper spray is the most effective defense against wildlife (although a can of bear spray will work wonders against a human attacker). I do think that a stout stick is far more effective. You can swing it around, beat underbrush with it, and use it to make yourself look absolutely insane (and therefore unwise to try to attack). If an animal does decide to go for you, you can use it as a weapon to flog said animal to the point that it leaves you alone.

 

I also think that the human ability to throw debris is exceptionally useful in such a situation. Rocks and sticks become projectile weapons as well as a distraction.

 

Wow... I hope that was tongue in cheek.

 

There's more than anecdotal evidence that bear spray is effective at stopping a grizzley at a full run towards you. There is no way you're going to be able to stop a bear from attacking you with your stick. That's 350-600 lbs of black bear and bigger for grizzlies that you're going to try to beat back with your stick. You will not have time to look for a rock big enough to throw and act as a deterrence to a bear running 30 MPH at you with intent.

 

I can only hope two things for your heirs:

1. Your will is up to date.

2. Your insurance is paid up.

 

We just had a bicyclist here in Washington wishing for those very things.

Edited September 19, 2007 by TotemLake

[mtbikernate]

 

Wow... I hope that was tongue in cheek.

 

There's more than anecdotal evidence that bear spray is effective at stopping a grizzley at a full run towards you. There is no way you're going to be able to stop a bear from attacking you with your stick. That's 350-600 lbs of black bear and bigger for grizzlies that you're going to try to beat back with your stick. You will not have time to look for a rock big enough to throw and act as a deterrence to a bear running 30 MPH at you with intent.

 

I can only hope two things for your heirs:

1. Your will is up to date.

2. Your insurance is paid up.

 

We just had a bicyclist here in Washington wishing for those very things.

 

Do you think that having a bear running full bore at you would also leave you enough time to fumble for your can of bear spray? Have you practiced that scenario enough that you're confident you could get your spray out, point it at the bear (not yourself) and fire a blast before you get mauled? You are wearing it in a holster on your belt, right? If not, then it's not doing you ANY good at all. My comment was not directed at bears specifically, but at wildlife in general. It was discussed in this very thread that spray may not be effective at all (or only slightly so) against rabid animals, or against any animal in a pack (coyotes or wolves). It's certainly not going to help against a cougar, which will attack from behind when you DON'T see it. I certainly won't waste a can of spray on a cougar that I can see. In those cases, carrying pepper spray won't help you much if at all. If you eliminate all those potential scenarios from the picture, you're still left with other wildlife like deer, wolverines, badgers, angry raccoons, skunks, etc. I don't know how effective pepper spray is against a buck in rut...do you? I sure don't want to be the first to find out. You often don't see the smaller animals coming from a long way off...they tend to startle you from rather close. I also wouldn't bother wasting pepper spray on a raccoon, or attempting to out-spray a skunk. Throwing rocks and sticks at a skunk works, I know this. Again, eliminating ALL other wildlife except bears, where we know that there is some efficacy, sure, I'd rather have pepper spray than a stick and some rocks. But I still wouldn't hold too much faith in it, given the evidence that some bears may still come for you after the initial sting wears off.

 

Against smaller animals, the stick can be used simply to block their approach. For slightly larger animals, you'd want a fierce swing. In some situations, the stick would still have some use against a bear. Not to mention, the stick is already in your hand since it's your walking stick, so there's no fumbling for it because you're terrified, forgetting you buried it in your first aid kit, or the animal being too close so you don't have time to get it.

 

Like I said earlier, if I'm in an area where habituated bears are known or suspected to be around, I'll carry some pepper spray. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't bother.

[+TotemLake]

 

Wow... I hope that was tongue in cheek.

 

There's more than anecdotal evidence that bear spray is effective at stopping a grizzley at a full run towards you. There is no way you're going to be able to stop a bear from attacking you with your stick. That's 350-600 lbs of black bear and bigger for grizzlies that you're going to try to beat back with your stick. You will not have time to look for a rock big enough to throw and act as a deterrence to a bear running 30 MPH at you with intent.

 

I can only hope two things for your heirs:

1. Your will is up to date.

2. Your insurance is paid up.

 

We just had a bicyclist here in Washington wishing for those very things.

 

Do you think that having a bear running full bore at you would also leave you enough time to fumble for your can of bear spray? Have you practiced that scenario enough that you're confident you could get your spray out, point it at the bear (not yourself) and fire a blast before you get mauled? You are wearing it in a holster on your belt, right? If not, then it's not doing you ANY good at all. My comment was not directed at bears specifically, but at wildlife in general. It was discussed in this very thread that spray may not be effective at all (or only slightly so) against rabid animals, or against any animal in a pack (coyotes or wolves). It's certainly not going to help against a cougar, which will attack from behind when you DON'T see it. I certainly won't waste a can of spray on a cougar that I can see. In those cases, carrying pepper spray won't help you much if at all. If you eliminate all those potential scenarios from the picture, you're still left with other wildlife like deer, wolverines, badgers, angry raccoons, skunks, etc. I don't know how effective pepper spray is against a buck in rut...do you? I sure don't want to be the first to find out. You often don't see the smaller animals coming from a long way off...they tend to startle you from rather close. I also wouldn't bother wasting pepper spray on a raccoon, or attempting to out-spray a skunk. Throwing rocks and sticks at a skunk works, I know this. Again, eliminating ALL other wildlife except bears, where we know that there is some efficacy, sure, I'd rather have pepper spray than a stick and some rocks. But I still wouldn't hold too much faith in it, given the evidence that some bears may still come for you after the initial sting wears off.

 

Against smaller animals, the stick can be used simply to block their approach. For slightly larger animals, you'd want a fierce swing. In some situations, the stick would still have some use against a bear. Not to mention, the stick is already in your hand since it's your walking stick, so there's no fumbling for it because you're terrified, forgetting you buried it in your first aid kit, or the animal being too close so you don't have time to get it.

 

Like I said earlier, if I'm in an area where habituated bears are known or suspected to be around, I'll carry some pepper spray. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't bother.

I actuallly have practiced pulling out the pepper spray can and armed it. It is readily available and faster to get at than using a belt holster as it is typically closer to where my hand is when I'm walking.

 

It is anecdotal conjecture that it may not be usable against rabid animals with no scientific backing at all. I'll wager it's better than using a stick or a rock as the reach is better.

 

That being said, your statement above was very general and not specific to any part of this thread except in general reference. If you didn't like my reply to yours, make sure you're quoting the text you're replying to in order to keep in context.

[ATMouse]

Wow...the biggest thing that ever attacked me when I was hiking was a female ruffled grouse. Nearly gave me a heart atttack, I screamed and jumped back as my husband fell on the ground laughing and gasping:"Do you think it's gonna hurt you?!?!"

[mtbikernate]

 

I actuallly have practiced pulling out the pepper spray can and armed it. It is readily available and faster to get at than using a belt holster as it is typically closer to where my hand is when I'm walking.

 

Well, good. At least you know what you're doing. Most folks have never practiced with their pepper spray or experimented with placement/ease of access. I'm assuming, then, that yours is on the shoulder strap of your pack?

 

It is anecdotal conjecture that it may not be usable against rabid animals with no scientific backing at all. I'll wager it's better than using a stick or a rock as the reach is better.

 

Conjecture, yes, but not without backing. It's known that the rabies virus alters the behavior of animals to encourage the spread of the virus. What isn't known is how this will alter the animal's senses, or the animal's tolerance to pain. I'm not going to assume that my pepper spray will work if ever presented with such a situation. Even still, I've never seen a rabid animal, and the only animals I recall even hearing about anecdotally that did have rabies were feral cats (though they did obviously get it from the local wildlife). If ever there was an argument for a firearm, this would be a good one. But, this discussion is about pepper spray, and there are doubts that pepper spray would work as advertised on a rabid animal. Again, I'm not going to be the first guy to try this one out.

 

 

That being said, your statement above was very general and not specific to any part of this thread except in general reference. If you didn't like my reply to yours, make sure you're quoting the text you're replying to in order to keep in context.

 

This thread is pretty general in scope, really. It wasn't about how effective pepper spray is against bears, where there is plenty of documentation. It was about how effective pepper spray is against lots of wildlife, bears being only a small part of it, and most of which has little to no testing one way or the other. I still hold that the OP, being in NY, is a little over-sensitive to the issue. If the OP had such concerns and was considering a backcountry trip to the Greater Yellowstone area, Denali NP, the Smokies, the high Sierras, or some other place with high populations of potentially dangerous wildlife and/or known issues with habituated bears, my response would have been different.

 

In all reality, pepper spray is just one option for defending yourself against wildlife. In some situations, we know it works. In others, there are reasonable doubts. If all you're concerned with are bears, then carry some if you feel like you need to. If you've got concerns about a wide range of wildlife, don't get complacent with carrying a can of pepper spray and thinking that it'll take care of you no matter what. There are other options...firearms, knives, sticks, rocks, your own hands and feet, and most importantly, your mind. Simply put, that is my point.

[+Cache'n'Carey]

Okay, nothing scares me more than someone who is not comfortable and/or knowledgeable out in the backcountry carrying a gun, especially a brand new gun!

 

Seriously, bear spray would probably give you at least some level of comfort level, if nothing else. In NY you need to purchase it from a licensed firearm dealer or pharmacist (?!). Make sure you get the kind that shoots a cone/cloud, not a stream. I recommend Counter Assault.

 

But the best thing you can do for yourself, the animals, and everyone else out there is to learn about the different types of animals you might encounter. You should learn the behavioral traits, how to recognize sign (scat, tracks, scrapes), how to handle an encounter, and how to handle an attack. Encounters are much more common than attacks, and familiarizing yourself with how to handle an encounter should help prevent the need the need to use the bearspray in the first place. And possibly prevent provoking an animal that never had any intention of attacking in the first place.

 

I only carry pepper spray to ward off the two-legged animals!

[+BFPierce]

In the voyages of Lewis and Clark, it was documented numerous times that gunfire didn't necessarily scare away grizzlies, it enraged them even more. On numerous occasions a bear would not be downed until 8-12 rounds of rifle fire were put into the beast.

 

It is doubtful that a small firearm will do anything but piss off a larger animal. It may work with smaller creatures, but of all the people I have hiked with/or talked to on the trail that do carry firearms it is usually in their baggage, not exactly a convenient place to get to in the time of emergency.

 

In my opinion only idiots carry firearms on trails. They are not needed and poorly compensate for survival knowledge.

[+Mule Ears]

In my opinion only idiots carry firearms on trails. They are not needed and poorly compensate for survival knowledge.

 

There's your opinion, and there's reality.

[hwyhobo]

[...] of all the people I have hiked with/or talked to on the trail that do carry firearms it is usually in their baggage [...] In my opinion only idiots carry firearms on trails. They are not needed and poorly compensate for survival knowledge.

Then perhaps you are talking about those people. Those I have hiked with in wilderness carry on their belts and hips.

 

Also, sweeping statements like "only idiots carry firearms" do not add credibility to what you say. Rather, they make you sound like an ideologue with an agenda.

Edited October 5, 2007 by hwyhobo

[bogleman]

Bear charge I think this is very fitting for this topic. Not for our dial-up friends

[+Alan2]

I carry a hiking stick to help me hike and to assist in finding the caches by poking around. Also good at sweeping away spider webs as you're walking.

 

I also have thought it would come in handy for protection mainly for dogs off leashes. (I'm guilty of that too with mine but he's just a cute little poodle). Anyway last week in a nearby park out of nowheres comes bounding a mid-size dog off his leash and probably just looking to play with my dog. Caught me by surprise but when he tried to get too close to my dog a second time, I just tapped him a little on the left side between him and mine, to get him off. First time I ever did that and was surprised how effective it was. Of course the stick was in my hand so it was right there.

 

Anyways the owners come bounding around the bushes after their dog apologizing and asking me if he created any problem. Of course I said "no" - didn't mention the stick action. No point having to face possibly angry humans! But the incident made me feel more confident of my ability and safety with a hiking stick at least with dogs and smaller animals.

Edited October 6, 2007 by Alan2

[+zygote2k]

I carry a 4.5 foot aluminum surveyors range pole as a hiking staff. It is perfectly balanced for throwing and has a sharp steel point to stick in anything. It works great to fend off small mammals and I guess you could use it as a last ditch effort to defend yourself from a bear. These are about $20-$40 and are very durable and long lasting. I've hiked with mine over 1000 miles and only have dulled the point a little. It is a very versatile tool/weapon that you can go anywhere with.

[TinyMoon & The Pumpkin King]

"In my opinion only idiots carry firearms on trails. They are not needed and poorly compensate for survival knowledge"

 

An idiot is the person hiking down the trail and thinking "My oversized cranium is what keeps me at the top of the Food Pyramid".

 

Survival knowledge is knowing "Critters of the Forest may find me very tasty indeed, therefore I carry my Dan Wesson .357 strapped to my side..."

[+Renegade Knight]

...idiots...firearms...trails...knowledge.

 

I have broken out your message into the 4 basics.

 

Idiots are idiots regardless of the other three. They are everywhere but procreate and fulfill their role in perpetuating the species. Evolution says that makes them smart.

 

Firearms are A tool. No more. No less. Tools have their uses and limitations. People who fear tools are not being rational and are shunning any knowledge they may have actually had to do so.

 

Trails are handy from getting from point a to point b. Trails don't care who's on them. They just exist. A gun carried on a trail by an idiot is still a tool.

 

Knowledge is a good thing. But you can still be dumber than a box of rocks even if you can recite every survival book on the planet. People who are smug about their knowledge typically are the ones competing with rocks.

 

When it comes to guns I have met two kinds of stupid people. Those who think people who carry them are idiots, and those who think that carrying them is the answer to everything. Both lack wisdom.

 

You gave no useful advice about grizzlies other than the observation that keeping your tools in your pack probably won't help in a crunch.

[+Truscott]

...

Best advice of all is hike with a buddy. Two will scare off most animals better than one. Plus if something does happen (More likely you will poke yourself with a stick). your buddy can give first aid, or get help. Oh and if you both have pepper spray the one can get it out and use it while the Cougar gnaws on the neck of the other.

 

And pick a buddy that runs slower than you do.

 

I love that line............remember the joke about the hunters? "I don't have to out run the bear, I just have to out run you!"

[+Arrow One]

Where I live, we dont have to worry about large animals, although bear sightings have been reported. Never saw any evidence myself. I carry a solid wood hiking stick and an air horn, the small handheld kind like they use on boats. I think the noise would probably scare any 4 legged creature and 2 legged alike. The most I have to worry about is a squirrel falling out of a tree on me.

[+MN-CACHE-TRACKER]

I have never carried anything other than a walking staff while hiking, and never had to use it. I have a relitive that works for a power company and has to read meters which requires him to walk into yards both in town and out in the country. Dogs are a problem for him, they are protecting their home and some are very agressive. He has tried several forms of spray and electronic deturents, but thwe best thing he has found that works and is 100% legal in all places with no permit is a portable marine blast horn. They sound a 100+ decible sound blast that will scare away an animal, and can be heard 1/2+ miles away so it could double as a help call if needed. Check your local marine dealer or search on line. look for marine horn, blast horn, safty blast horn. KEEP CACHING

[+Papafuz & Mama]

I may be an incurable idiot, but on the trail I carry a good walking stick, a good Bowie knife, and as a last resort, an excellent Colt 38 revolver. The critter might get me, but I'll guarantee his lunch is going to give him a belly ache.

Edited December 13, 2007 by Papafuz

[+Seasoned Warrior]

...If we're going to add animals to the list, let's not forget deer!...

 

Good point. Last weekend we were fishing in the Copper Basin and I came across three moose. Two Calves and the mom. They wandered away from me and I gave them a wide berth. Just as I passed them my daughters were coming up the creek with our two dogs. Border Collies that love to herd but have zero training. I radioed them to get the dogs back before it became an issue. Last thing I wanted was for my two dogs to do what they do beast and freak out the moose by trying to herd them.

 

In the end you have to know your area and what the animals are like. Around here deer come out after midnight and make the drive home a bit more dangerous if you are driving late.

 

quite right about deer. I live in an area where deer are virtually pests. They are out and about all year round and seem to like my fields to just hang out in. The dog I had just before the one I have now was badly hurt by a deer which charged it and butted it in the side. The dog I currently have (a Chow Akita mix) got her left hind leg broken in three pieces by a deer trying ot stomp her when she was just a puppy. Dogs around our are give deer a wide berth. I've heard many instances of tourists here feeding deer and then getting attacked when they stopped or ran out of food.

 

Here is a blacktail buck in my front yard observing the object of his affections:

 

and here is the object of his afections eating what remains of the years last apples

I love watching the animals in my yard but they can be aggressive if one is not careful!

[+Seasoned Warrior]

...idiots...firearms...trails...knowledge.

 

I have broken out your message into the 4 basics.

 

Idiots are idiots regardless of the other three. They are everywhere but procreate and fulfill their role in perpetuating the species. Evolution says that makes them smart.

 

Firearms are A tool. No more. No less. Tools have their uses and limitations. People who fear tools are not being rational and are shunning any knowledge they may have actually had to do so.

 

Trails are handy from getting from point a to point b. Trails don't care who's on them. They just exist. A gun carried on a trail by an idiot is still a tool.

 

Knowledge is a good thing. But you can still be dumber than a box of rocks even if you can recite every survival book on the planet. People who are smug about their knowledge typically are the ones competing with rocks.

 

When it comes to guns I have met two kinds of stupid people. Those who think people who carry them are idiots, and those who think that carrying them is the answer to everything. Both lack wisdom.

 

You gave no useful advice about grizzlies other than the observation that keeping your tools in your pack probably won't help in a crunch.

 

I find it curious that the people who are the most comfortable around me knowing that I carry are others who carry expecially law enforcement, go figure . You are ablsoutely right that guns are tools and like all tools can be used for good and evil, people have been stabbed to death with a screwdriver. I had a friend who was hospitalized in Boston walking up on someone trying to boost the tires on his car and getting his skull cracked with a tire iron. My favorite weapon is a piece of hardwood dowel, in trained hands a hardwood dowel is even effective on guns, I've taken down a gunweilding robber with a baton, a good old fashioned straight baton! In the woods I carry a walking stick, great, used as a bo, and I carry my H&K either of them to be used as the situation dictates.

[+SwampFox4Christ]

Bear spray works because a "Bears" nose is 10,000 times more sensitive than a bloodhound.

The only real difference between bear spray and other types of defense sprays is that

"bear spray" is biodegradable and safe for the environment, i.e. water based, a little safer.

 

Likewise if your in Alaska, a gunshot can actually do you a disservice as many grizzly's

have become use to hunters and showing up to take their kill. So don't plan on sticking around.

 

I have personally been sprayed with the good stuff (oil based) when a riot control device

was dropped and the valve broke on concrete. Did it deter me from what I was doing? No,

it just p*ss*d me off, and thats saying something because I have pretty bad asthma,

even being hospitalized a couple of times, but not because of the defense spray.

 

I have sprayed rabid dogs that just shook it off and forced me to shoot them (as a last resort)

but I'm sure glad I didn't limit my options because of what people might think its politically

incorrect, they can go hug a tree.

 

My H&K will not only deter a bear in the wild but works equally well to deter a crackhead

in a urban environment. It can be used to gather food in a survival situation, and then make a fire to

cook that game. If you purchase a gun get proper training, not just one time, laws change

and you will need to practice shooting just like anything else to be proficient with it just like

anything else. In less you live in Vermont or Alaska you will also need a permit to carry it

in a urban environment, not hard to get with training, but it shouldn't be your only training. If your state doesn't grant permits you may still be able to get a non, resident permit from a nearby state, I live in Louisiana but my permit is from Fl. because its honored by more states I travel through.

 

You can get real world marksmanship training from www.idpa.com mostly for free, in less you

enroll in a class which can be beneficial. Their is one in every state, and many times are people will let you shoot their guns (if you ask) so you can see what type best fits your grip, and needs.

 

Your friend would appreciate you not leaving them in the dust, personally I can't run that fast.

I've been in a few motorcycle wrecks and had various things broken, fractured etc..

 

Of course it would be better to avoid such situations, I am a big advocate of running away if you

can, but I have also had small children with me in the past. Smaller and more bite size, they are

often singled out by larger game animals when they get ahead of their parents by mountain lions.

 

Personally I've never had to defend kids against wild animals but I did have to in the front yard

after a pervert tried to grab one of my nieces in broad daylight. I live in a very good area,

all my neighbors earn over $80g a yr, sometimes you can do your best to protect them, and avoid

bad area's and situations and predators whether human or animal will still single you out as

vulnerable. Maybe not in your state but, we are as a civilization encroaching on wildlife everyday

pushing them into game reserves with our 50 acre homesteads, we get there and say: Oh my, a bear

in my yard, well it doesn't belong here.

 

So my question to you is, what if your so far out in the woods that your at least 10 days from

help? What if your in a survival situation in the middle of nowhere because your vehicle broke down

crossing an expanse of 50 or 100 miles because you wanted to surprise someone?

Would you rather have pepper-spray to help you gather food or something that would actually

be useful?

 

There are some who think that guns are stupid, well a gun is a tool.

Thats like saying a its stupid for a homeowner to bring a hammer with them to check up on

a new build site, he probably won't need it, but you never know?

 

Some people think guns are evil and kill people, if you load a gun and set it on a table in your

kitchen it is not going to get up (by itself) and start shooting people, its just gonna sit there

like a hammer.

 

Guns are not the answer to every problem, as I hope I pointed out with the grizzly's, nor should they

relied on as your main plan of action. A gun is no different than a book with edible plants in it.

If you don't get familiar with it and you just start reading you could just as easily be in the

poison plants section and do yourself and possibly your family more harm than good. Liewise if

your not going to follow through with proper education about a firearm, please don't get one.

 

Last don't listen to me or the anti-gun people, don't look at statistics gathered by only one group

of people, in less they are non-bias like the CDC who take every variable into account not just

that they were shot but also whether they were committing a class 3 felony at the time of their death.

Go out and do your own research before calling a group of people stupid or making a life changing

decision about whats right for you, because no one knows you better than you do. The correct decision

for me might not be for you. Likewise there a survival book can't compete with a hands on survival course

thats designed to fit your geographical area, and environment.

 

Happy Caching

[+oldsoldier]

Rabid animals generally move slower than normal. They also, quite often, have uncontrollable seizures. Contrary to popular belief, they dont turn all "Cujo" and become raving bloodthirsty animals, bent on eating humans. Rabies screws with their nervous system. Generally, if you see an animal (wild or not), sitting there, unafraid of you, be wary. A slow, lilting, lumbering gait CAN BE indicative of rabies. Not always though. When in doubt, move away.

Bears GENERALLY dont see people as food. Yes, attacks happen. Black bears, when attacking, usually mean to kill you. However, proper trail etiquette (food storage, scent containment, etc) can prevent this. As well as being generally human-noisy. Alot of animals on major trails will lose some of their fear of humans, mainly in state parks. And, usually, those types of incidents are posted there.

Animals have to weigh engergy expenditure vs gain. If you are not on their prey list, unless they are starving, they will generally avoid you. They dont want to have to fight to eat.

And, I have been around firearms my whole life. Military, civilian, competitions. I have NEVER taken one while hiking. Unless I carry it where I can get at it immediately, it is useless. And, most folks dont take too well to someone walking around strapped.

An old adage; never point a weapon at something you dont intend to shoot; never shoot as weapon at something you dont intend to destroy; destruction of something is permanent. Be prepared to live with that.

[+ICHTHYS]

As a cop I always chuckle to myself when I take a report of a Breaking and Entering of someones house and they left their doors unlocked and the bad guys walked right in. They always say; "But I have lived here for years and never had a problem."

 

You only need the problem once for it to be a big problem. You may have spent years in the woods and never need it, but the next time you go out may be the time that you do.

 

I'd rather have it and never need it than need it and not have it.

[+fox-and-the-hound]

The best protection is to always hike with a buddy.....

 

 

 

 

....who runs slower than you!

 

Hands down the best defense is to hike with at least one other person and/or a dog. I've lived and hiked all over the states including heavily populated brown and grizzly bear areas and I've never needed anything more. It doesn't mean I didn't carry a big stick though (or a proper firearm) just in case On the one and only occasion we got into a pickle our 90lb mutt had the bear running for the high country in less than 5 seconds. Apparently the dog is more loyal than our friends who went running the other direction

 

edit 4 two spel

Edited February 13, 2008 by fox-and-the-hound

[+TotemLake]

The best protection is to always hike with a buddy.....

 

 

 

 

....who runs slower than you!

 

Hands down the best defense is to hike with at least one other person and/or a dog. I've lived and hiked all over the states including heavily populated brown and grizzly bear areas and I've never needed anything more. It doesn't mean I didn't carry a big stick though (or a proper firearm) just in case On the one and only occasion we got into a pickle our 90lb mutt had the bear running for the high country in less than 5 seconds. Apparently the dog is more loyal than our friends who went running the other direction

 

edit 4 two spel

We had a bicyclist over here who had dogs with him. Turns out they were ahead of him and agitated the mess out of a black bear who in turn attacked him when he came around the bend. IF you take your dog with you, always keep them in sight and in check. They will bring the bear back to you when they feel they've bitten off more than they can chew. You are, afterall, the Alpha.

[+JPD252]

As a cop I always chuckle to myself when I take a report of a Breaking and Entering of someones house and they left their doors unlocked and the bad guys walked right in. They always say; "But I have lived here for years and never had a problem."

 

You only need the problem once for it to be a big problem. You may have spent years in the woods and never need it, but the next time you go out may be the time that you do.

 

I'd rather have it and never need it than need it and not have it.

 

Couldn't have said it better. As for the bear spray. Correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe bear spray and OC spray (that law enforcement carries) are two different things? I know there is some OC in the "bear spray" but I do believe that Oleorsesin capsicum doesn't effect animals the same way and in some ways is totally ineffective. From what I have read and I don't rememer where but isn't sprays produced for animals targeted to rapidly dilate the capillaries in their eyes causing temporary blindness and to disrupt respiration? As for effectiveness, I personally was ceritified on OC spray in a class with 32 other people. We were told that OC spray does not effect 5% of the population. There were two people in my class, myself included that OC had no effect what so ever on. While others were coughing and gagging and had snot running everywhere the two of us just sat there. I also have seen people after being sprayed still continue what ever they were doing before except they did complain about burning or their nose running but it didn't stop them.

 

In short carry what ever floats your boat......as long as it is legal. Why not carry a stick, spray and a gun? Personally, I never leave the house without the latter.

[Shiraz-mataz]

Someone sent me a photo of a sign that was really cool. Wish I still had it! I'll try to convey its message which warned hikers of the difference between black bears and grizzly bears. The sign suggested that hikers carry pepper spray and hang bells on their hiking sticks. Then the sign told hikers how to tell the difference between black bear scat and grizzly bear scat. Black bear poop usually has berries in it while grizzly bear poop has bells in it and smells like peppers!

[+TotemLake]

A brief desciription of what is in bear pepper sprays and their effect. Capsaicinoids

 

Counter Assault has a comparison of the availale sprays and their capabilities, revised as of October 2007. The comparison sheet has a link to an EPA approved REGISTERED BEAR DETERRENT PRODUCTS IN UNITED STATES along with the company name, contact information and website, revised as of November 2006.

 

Edited to add this USGS link which explains in simpler terms what the spray has, does and the inherent hazards with brown bears after the spray has been expended.

Edited February 13, 2008 by TotemLake

[+fox-and-the-hound]

Hands down the best defense is to hike with at least one other person and/or a dog. I've lived and hiked all over the states including heavily populated brown and grizzly bear areas and I've never needed anything more. It doesn't mean I didn't carry a big stick though (or a proper firearm) just in case On the one and only occasion we got into a pickle our 90lb mutt had the bear running for the high country in less than 5 seconds. Apparently the dog is more loyal than our friends who went running the other direction

 

edit 4 two spel

We had a bicyclist over here who had dogs with him. Turns out they were ahead of him and agitated the mess out of a black bear who in turn attacked him when he came around the bend. IF you take your dog with you, always keep them in sight and in check. They will bring the bear back to you when they feel they've bitten off more than they can chew. You are, afterall, the Alpha.

 

A well trained and/or leashed dog is definitely going to be essential anytime you're out of doors. I've never heard of a bear chasing dogs anywhere with the exception of defending her cubs, but better safe than sorry.

 

Just out of curiosity was it a brownie or a black bear?

Edited February 13, 2008 by fox-and-the-hound

[+fox-and-the-hound]

Someone sent me a photo of a sign that was really cool. Wish I still had it! I'll try to convey its message which warned hikers of the difference between black bears and grizzly bears. The sign suggested that hikers carry pepper spray and hang bells on their hiking sticks. Then the sign told hikers how to tell the difference between black bear scat and grizzly bear scat. Black bear poop usually has berries in it while grizzly bear poop has bells in it and smells like peppers!

 

[+Nishnabotna]

Bear Spray hurts. My hard won advice is to not try to take the bear spray apart.

I also would rather have UDAP instead of a handgun if I was facing a bear.

[+TotemLake]

Hands down the best defense is to hike with at least one other person and/or a dog. I've lived and hiked all over the states including heavily populated brown and grizzly bear areas and I've never needed anything more. It doesn't mean I didn't carry a big stick though (or a proper firearm) just in case On the one and only occasion we got into a pickle our 90lb mutt had the bear running for the high country in less than 5 seconds. Apparently the dog is more loyal than our friends who went running the other direction

 

edit 4 two spel

We had a bicyclist over here who had dogs with him. Turns out they were ahead of him and agitated the mess out of a black bear who in turn attacked him when he came around the bend. IF you take your dog with you, always keep them in sight and in check. They will bring the bear back to you when they feel they've bitten off more than they can chew. You are, afterall, the Alpha.

 

A well trained and/or leashed dog is definitely going to be essential anytime you're out of doors. I've never heard of a bear chasing dogs anywhere with the exception of defending her cubs, but better safe than sorry.

 

Just out of curiosity was it a brownie or a black bear?

Edited February 13, 2008 by TotemLake

[+Criminal]

Watch the video on the upper right of this page. Then, put on your pack with your bear spray placed wherever you normally carry it. Now, press play and see if you have enough time to retrieve your spray, pull the safety pin, point and simulate firing it. Can you do that before the bear hits the camera? Realistically, can you do that while the bear is still ten to fifteen feet away? The bear in the video appears to be a trained bear, so one would assume that a wild bear sufficiently cheesed at you is probably going to move a bit faster.

[+TotemLake]

Watch the video on the upper right of this page. Then, put on your pack with your bear spray placed wherever you normally carry it. Now, press play and see if you have enough time to retrieve your spray, pull the safety pin, point and simulate firing it. Can you do that before the bear hits the camera? Realistically, can you do that while the bear is still ten to fifteen feet away? The bear in the video appears to be a trained bear, so one would assume that a wild bear sufficiently cheesed at you is probably going to move a bit faster.

Counter Assault has a thumb release safety which no longer requires two hands to undo. I have practiced pulling it out so there is some muscle memory for when the need arises and I make it a point not to strap my trekking poles to my wrists when I use them. Obviously, a direct hit into the face is always going to be the best, a sweep in the general direction of the bear will create a fog they have to run through. The can has a capacity of 7.2 secods to spray.

 

Criminal knows me but I want to make clear, I'm not advocating against the use of weapons. You use what you are comfortable with. As pointed out above, training is needed on the use of both deterrents.