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Bear Mauling Banner Forest


Douglas_Clan

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I recall back in the '50s when my brother first started hiking and REI was a small co-op, one of the codes of hiking was never to bring dogs because they attracted and caused bear attacks. Everyone knew this. Everyone hiked with bear bells. Things are different now, but no one bothered to tell the bears. ...That is the few bears that remain. ...One less bear now.

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I recall back in the '50s when my brother first started hiking and REI was a small co-op, one of the codes of hiking was never to bring dogs because they attracted and caused bear attacks. Everyone knew this. Everyone hiked with bear bells. Things are different now, but no one bothered to tell the bears. ...That is the few bears that remain. ...One less bear now.

 

From the article it sounds like it was a Mama bear protecting her cubs from attacking dogs. But now they are determined to kill the mama bear. How sad.

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My son Tom lived on Takhula Lake in the Brooks Range of Alaska in a cabin that had been homesteaded for a few years. They had a Malmute. They did a lot of hiking in the mountains surrounding the lake. In the winter the Malmute, Tassik pulled a sled. Tom said they always knew when a bear was around as Tassik would stay very close to them. He knew enough to stay away from bears. Tom said the trouble with "ankle biters" is they will bark at the bears and them bring them right to you. Of course that is the opinion of a big dog lover.

They always carried a 44 magnum revolver and a large caliber rifle.

When I was up they by myself I walked up the trail to the cabin and when I rounded the corner to the cabin there was a black bear about ten feet from me. He took off at a high rate of speed up a steep hill.

I thought to myself "boy you are sure taking this calm like" when a squirrel barked at me and I jumped about 2 feet in the air. I think I was in shock. I have seen a few bears in Kitsap County when I was steelheading but was never that close before. Just glad the gentleman at Banner Forest was able to get away. Dick

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Wow. I have met bears in the woods, and never had a problem with them. That being said, I don't have a dog, and to go offf topic a bit, I don't hike with grizzlies.

I'm afraid part is the dog issue, and part is the fact that people are thriving, and moving constantly deeper into the woods. There's got to be some stress there for the bears.

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The mountain biker should be fined for having his dogs loose and far enough ahead he lost sight of them until he came around the bend. They obviously had time to harrass the bear which in turn took him as an additional threaat.

 

It's a shame because this may be a mamma bear defending her cubs and she will be put to death for it. :)

 

Users of the trails are wardens of the forests and the critters that live in them. We need to leave our arrogance behind and take care we don't endanger the well being of the critters that live there. By threatening them into a defensive position to attack us, we submit them to an unwavering policy to irreversibly punish them.

 

Having initiated the HOTM series, I'm glad to have met many geocachers with a sense of humility about them to recognize arrogance has no place on the trails.

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The mountain biker should be fined for having his dogs loose and far enough ahead he lost sight of them until he came around the bend. They obviously had time to harrass the bear which in turn took him as an additional threaat.

 

It's a shame because this may be a mamma bear defending her cubs and she will be put to death for it. :D

 

Users of the trails are wardens of the forests and the critters that live in them. We need to leave our arrogance behind and take care we don't endanger the well being of the critters that live there. By threatening them into a defensive position to attack us, we submit them to an unwavering policy to irreversibly punish them.

 

Having initiated the HOTM series, I'm glad to have met many geocachers with a sense of humility about them to recognize arrogance has no place on the trails.

NO arguments here. The man and his dogs were more at fault then the bear however the bear will pay for his stupidity/arrogance.

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Whenever I'm out hiking alone, I bring my well-behaved black lab along with me. My assumption has always been that he would aid me in a similar situation. Now I'm having second thoughts.

 

When on remote trails that's about the only time I can let my dogs run. So many people create so many rules in the city there isn't a place anymore for dogs to run. Sounds like that's why this guy was out as well. Reading the article it sounds like the Dogs ran ahead because the bear was already there. Not because they were hunting bear. I'd say they saved the guys life or at least kept the situation from being worse. If he had rode right into the bear on his bike that would have been uglier. The dogs gave warning.

 

The Bear could have run off at the sight of the dogs, but didn't. There is no reason to think that the bear would have run off when the guy came around the corner himself. With or without the dogs.

 

I'm not having second thoughts. Bears are dangerouse and they prove it every now and then.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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I have heard for some time about cougar being present in Banner Forest, and just assumed that a bear would be too every now and then. I remember a few years ago, a bear being shot out of tree near the Sedgwick Rd, and Jackson Ave. intersection, not too terribly far from Banner Forest, so they are around us.

I am glad that I have found all of the 11 active caches in Banner already, though.

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Whenever I'm out hiking alone, I bring my well-behaved black lab along with me. My assumption has always been that he would aid me in a similar situation. Now I'm having second thoughts.

 

When on remote trails that's about the only time I can let my dogs run. So many people create so many rules in the city there isn't a place anymore for dogs to run. Sounds like that's why this guy was out as well. Reading the article it sounds like the Dogs ran ahead because the bear was already there. Not because they were hunting bear. I'd say they saved the guys life or at least kept the situation from being worse. If he had rode right into the bear on his bike that would have been uglier. The dogs gave warning.

 

The Bear could have run off at the sight of the dogs, but didn't. There is no reason to think that the bear would have run off when the guy came around the corner himself. With or without the dogs.

 

I'm not having second thoughts. Bears are dangerouse and they prove it every now and then.

Bears will scamper away when given a chance. I doubt the dogs out of sight of the owner gave that any consideration. If there were cubs about, there's not much chance to gather them up AND get the heck out of there with two dogs hounding at your heels. I've had that kind of encounter with loose dogs and careless owners. You're chasing one away to have another sneak in from the side. My take on it is the bear decided to fight than flight in that situation and the owner got caught with his owner ignorance around his ankles.

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When on remote trails that's about the only time I can let my dogs run. So many people create so many rules in the city there isn't a place anymore for dogs to run. Sounds like that's why this guy was out as well.

While I'm not necessarily inclined to call someone I don't know "stupid" or "arrogant," it is clear that if the dogs were off leash the guy was violating the park's rules:

Animals: Pets, horses and domesticated animals allowed on designated trails only - leashed.

Given the circumstances - guy illegally letting his dogs run off ahead; guy himself riding a bike down a trail and ostensibly giving no warning; guy and/or his dogs surprising bear; guy's dogs barking at bear - it is not surprising that the bear attacked. That is a common and natural response to surprise and threat, particularly if cubs are around. This does not sound like an unprovoked attack by a bear that has become acclimated to humans, so the knee-jerk response of killing the bear is pretty disturbing.

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I heard on the news today that the person who was attacked is sure that it was a male bear.

I read that, too. Certainly possible, but surprising he had time for an anatomical check in the middle of being attacked. :D Even if it is male, that doesn't mean the bear should be destroyed for instinctively protecting itself from a perceived threat. ...Or perhaps hunting down a lone male plays better than killing a mother and orphaning her cubs.

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Given the circumstances - guy illegally letting his dogs run off ahead; guy himself riding a bike down a trail and ostensibly giving no warning; guy and/or his dogs surprising bear; guy's dogs barking at bear - it is not surprising that the bear attacked. That is a common and natural response to surprise and threat, particularly if cubs are around. This does not sound like an unprovoked attack by a bear that has become acclimated to humans, so the knee-jerk response of killing the bear is pretty disturbing.

 

Every black bear I've ever walked up on (and I've lost count) has hightailed it away as fast as possible, even one with a couple of cubs, but that may have been because I stopped and slowly backed away.

 

I would never consider taking my two retrievers up in Grizzly territory where I hike, let along off-leash.

 

I'll bet that if the dogs were not there and he came around the bend on his bike and managed to stop, the bear would have left the scene mighty quick.

 

It's a shame that the bear is being blamed for this.

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I heard on the news today that the person who was attacked is sure that it was a male bear.

I read that, too. Certainly possible, but surprising he had time for an anatomical check in the middle of being attacked. :D Even if it is male, that doesn't mean the bear should be destroyed for instinctively protecting itself from a perceived threat. ...Or perhaps hunting down a lone male plays better than killing a mother and orphaning her cubs.

You know, based on your remakr, I wondered about that and I did a little reading on Black Bear or ursus americanus here and here.

 

A male black bear typically weighs in at around 350 lbs whereas a female is typically half that size to about 150 lbs. So depending on the description the biker gave, he could easily have come across a male bear.

 

Surprisingly (to me), "the greatest misconception is that mother black bears are likely to defend their cubs against people. They usually do not. While grizzly bear mothers can be dangerous, no human deaths are known from black bear mothers defending cubs. Researchers often capture screaming black bear cubs in the presence of their mothers, and no attacks have been reported."

(That's a direct quote folks.)

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Whenever I'm out hiking alone, I bring my well-behaved black lab along with me. My assumption has always been that he would aid me in a similar situation. Now I'm having second thoughts.

 

When on remote trails that's about the only time I can let my dogs run. So many people create so many rules in the city there isn't a place anymore for dogs to run. Sounds like that's why this guy was out as well. Reading the article it sounds like the Dogs ran ahead because the bear was already there. Not because they were hunting bear. I'd say they saved the guys life or at least kept the situation from being worse. If he had rode right into the bear on his bike that would have been uglier. The dogs gave warning.

 

The Bear could have run off at the sight of the dogs, but didn't. There is no reason to think that the bear would have run off when the guy came around the corner himself. With or without the dogs.

 

I'm not having second thoughts. Bears are dangerouse and they prove it every now and then.

Bears will scamper away when given a chance. I doubt the dogs out of sight of the owner gave that any consideration. If there were cubs about, there's not much chance to gather them up AND get the heck out of there with two dogs hounding at your heels. I've had that kind of encounter with loose dogs and careless owners. You're chasing one away to have another sneak in from the side. My take on it is the bear decided to fight than flight in that situation and the owner got caught with his owner ignorance around his ankles.

And once again I'm agreeing with TL. Had the guy been out without the dogs he may have never know the bear was around cuz it could just as easily have scampered off the trail and waited for the biker to pass. There was no indication that the bear was out looking for trouble.

If I'm out on a trail and a couple of large dogs come bounding up to me I may be a little put out myself especially if I was thinking about the lady who was just attacked by a couple of pit bulls.

The biker could just as easily have come around that bend in the trail to see me getting ready to put his dogs down with a couple of well placed rounds.

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You, would never know there was a leash law by the people RUNNING their dogs in there.I am like Recdiver I have worried more about aggressive dogs in the woods than Bears or Cougars. I have a conceiled weapon permit but the weapon is usually locked in my vehicle. There have been times when I wished I had it along when meeting aggressive dogs. This is completely off subject but at the GeoLuau I have never seen so many nice mannered dogs. Everyone of them

was the kind you wanted to hug. Yes, I like well mannered dogs. Dick

Edited by W7WT
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I've only met well mannered bears. Met a few. Maybe the next encounter will change my mind, but I still think it's a question of shrinking habitat and stressed animals.

On the news, they showed a 15 year old boy who said he was going in there. I'd be willing to, as well.I think it was just an encounter that frightened an animal.

On the other side, now that the bear has been frightened, it's more likely to fight.

I'd go in, but maybe not so much alone.

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I DO let my dog run off leash as folks who hike with me know. However, at every turn when it is likely I'm going to lose sight of my dog, I call her back to me. When that happens, she must touch my hand before leading the way again.

 

When Snickers was alive and I was admittedly less than responsible on the trail with him, I was very concerned about the lack of control I had over him when needed to keep him near me and I began the training program that results in the come back routine that happens today with my dog.

 

On topic, the reason for not letting a dog go out of sight on a trail... They are known for starting fights with something then tucking tail and running back to the owner when they realize they picked the wrong fight. THAT can and will bring the bear to you in a very agitated state. You now become a target of that agitation because the mutt is behind you still egging the bear on! Go ahead Alpha... whoop his butt! Never let your dog run out of your sight. Out of sight is out of control. Out of control dogs are potentially dangerous to both people and critters sharing the trail. Your out of sight out of control dog can bring back potential danger to you.

 

That cyclist did everything wrong in bear country.

I'd say they saved the guys life or at least kept the situation from being worse. If he had rode right into the bear on his bike that would have been uglier. The dogs gave warning.

You have it wrong here RK and I'm surprised by that. I'm always seeing warnings on regarding dogs and bears. Dogs can provoke defensive behaviour in bears. The dogs caused the problem. They didn't give warning. However, they were only part of the problem.

 

 

The Bear could have run off at the sight of the dogs, but didn't. There is no reason to think that the bear would have run off when the guy came around the corner himself. With or without the dogs.

 

I'm not having second thoughts. Bears are dangerouse and they prove it every now and then.

This you have right. That bear was there, however, as a cyclist, speed and quietness put him at risk for sudden bear encounters. He needed to slow down through shrubby areas and approaching blind corners; Make noise, travel in a group, be alert and always watch ahead. (Go back to the section on Avoiding an Encounter for other advice).

 

One thing I've noticed when biking, what sounds like a lot of noise to the rider is very very quiet to the subject being approached. He's lucky to be alive alright, but not for the reasons you posted.

 

Don't have second thoughts about enjoying the trail with your dog. Have a responsible attitude when sharing that trail with your dog and others. That HAS to include the critters of the woods. The website I linked is just one of many that say the same thing. Washington government and civilian websites on trails emphasize this. I was surprised to learn Washington has a population of 25,000 black bear and that most adult bear deaths are directly related to human interaction. Very few die from natural causes. That's a careless, wreckless and arrogant attitude that doesn't do better to protect these aniimals from our dumbassed mistakes. Yes... I will use the word arrogance. It's either that or ignorance.

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I can't disagree with you Totem Lake. But, considering the fact that people ARE sharing these woods, what's best now? Is the bear not more dangerous because it's had a bad encounter? And, no, I'm not saying I want it euthanized, I don't, I'm asking because I don't know how it may have changed the bear's future behavior in human, or human/dog encounters.

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Remember, when you're out there, to always wear little bells and take pepper spray. But most importantly you must learn the difference in Black Bear scat and Grizzly scat so you know what's in the area.

 

Black Bear will have bits of bone and fur in it.

 

Grizzly will have little bells in it and it smells like pepper spray. ;)

 

(Sorry, someone had to do it. I'll slink back to Texas now)

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Yes, I enjoy the bear bell story. ;)

 

I'm still thinking this one over, and I think slowly, hence the multiple posts. If you have a bear that gets into your garbage can, and gets an easy meal, is the bear not forever changed, more likely to come looking for garbage cans?

 

If the bear was frightened by a bicyclist and dogs, and attacked, and it worked, the bear got away safely, are they not more likely to use the same tactic next time?

 

I don't know why, they have said that they would not relocate this bear, but I'd have to say that with my limited knowledge, that would be my choice.

Edited by bumblingbs
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The bear attacked a person? The bear needs to be destroyed, its that simple, its a threat to people.

 

Who's fault it was - bear, person, dogs - doesn't matter, its not a court of law, the bear has become a threat to human life.

 

That doesn't mean its not to be regretted, but it doesn't change the fact that there is a bear roaming that forest that has learned that it can attack humans - for whatever reason.

 

We have a bear (or bears) that has been an occasional visitor to our property for around ten years now. He's never caused a problem with garbage, our dogs (who run loose) or our livestock - if I've ever seen a bear look surprised it was when we got our first llama and the bear came out of the woods - I swear he was saying to himself "What the heck is that?" - and we always know he's around when the llama starts getting nervous and giving alarm calls. If we don't see him or hear of him we find his scat in the woods.

 

My point is: We've gotten along with bears just fine since we've lived here, but if one ever attacks a human he will need to be destroyed. I'm not going to lose a child, or a friend's, or an adult or anyone else on or near my property because some people wring their hands and say its not the bear's fault.

 

On a lighter note, advice on carrying a pistol for bear protection, told to a group of cheechakos who were discussing which huge pistol caliber would be best, 44 Magnum, 454 Casull, etc:

 

Old Alaskan: "It don't really matter which caliber pistol you choose to carry for protection against brownies or grizz, just make sure to remove the front sight and file it nice and smooth. That way, when the bear takes it and shoves it up your a@@ it won't hurt so bad."

Edited by alienbogey
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I can't disagree with you Totem Lake. But, considering the fact that people ARE sharing these woods, what's best now? Is the bear not more dangerous because it's had a bad encounter? And, no, I'm not saying I want it euthanized, I don't, I'm asking because I don't know how it may have changed the bear's future behavior in human, or human/dog encounters.

Well that's the real issue on the head. The bear's mistake was just doing what it does naturally and by instinct to a perceived threat. It has become habituated to humans, that is, it lost its fear of humans by the simple self-defense mechanism built into it by eons of evolution. You have two for sure choices and one experimental choice.

 

Euthanize or relocate are the for sure choices. Relocation is merely dumping your problem into someone else's backyard. Euthanizing the animal ensures it will never happen by that particular individual again. The problem with euthanization is the lesson is not passed down to future generations.

 

The experimental choice is to rebuild the fear of man into the bear. You'e seen this done with noisemakers, guns shot in the air, pots and pans clanging and fireworks. Thjere's no firm evidence this works. There is anecdotal evidence the bear will eventually learn to get past that noise and still hang around. There is a pack of grizzlies under study in Alaska that do not go very far from the trail when bear bells are heard on hikers. They got used to hearing them. So, eventually, that funny little joke about the scat will eventually become a sad truth.

 

I don't have any good answers for the bear caught in this situation. That's why trail users must be diligent to their protection as well as the bear's future.

Edited by TotemLake
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Every bear I have seen in the wild either ran away or quickly moved of the trail. I've never had to fear for my safety in a bear encounter on the trial, I wish I could say the same thing for dogs. I've had dogs growl at me on the trail and I was scared. I am a dog lover and I know the differnece between when a dog growls and really means it and when a dog is just testing the waters and actually wants to be petted.

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On a lighter note, advice on carrying a pistol for bear protection, told to a group of cheechakos who were discussing which huge pistol caliber would be best, 44 Magnum, 454 Casull, etc:

 

Old Alaskan: "It don't really matter which caliber pistol you choose to carry for protection against brownies or grizz, just make sure to remove the front sight and file it nice and smooth. That way, when the bear takes it and shoves it up your a@@ it won't hurt so bad."

No argument, we are at the top of the food chain and above all else, protection of self and the like are critical.

 

I'm merely adding the other addage about the right caliber of weapon. It doesn't matter so long as it slows down the person in front of me. :laughing:

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Relocating doesn't always mean moving the problem into someone else's backyard, in fact I wouldn't go there. There is still wide open territory. Well, maybe I'm being a Pollyanna. Is there a lot of space where humans don't go?

 

Lately we've gotten two of northwestern Montana's "Problem Grizzlies" and they haven't created much of a problem when let loose up in northern Idaho.

 

And I've subsequently found out that when I set my Gem & Estelle cache, the bear I saw was most probably the one from the Yaak (MT). I'm still alive, so...

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Relocating doesn't always mean moving the problem into someone else's backyard, in fact I wouldn't go there. There is still wide open territory. Well, maybe I'm being a Pollyanna. Is there a lot of space where humans don't go?

Let's go back to the 25,000 population. Each black bear has a territory of about 32 miles give or take a few dependant upon factors in the following order such as food availability, mating and rivals. Find a spot that isn't going to bump one back into the area that was just vacated.

 

Also, we all have heard how intelligent bears are and how they pass down their knowledge to be used over and over again. Once a bear learns that humans are easy targets, they keep that knowledge and they pass it down to the cubs. Exponentially, this information will be taught to other cubs and the bears can potentially become more aggressive towards humans over time. Relo after an attack will put that problem in somebody's backyard. Relo after an attack is not a good option in face of what we know about bears' capablity about teaching each other tricks of the trade.

 

The downside is the lesson of attack and be killed is not passed on when a bear is killed.

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Relocating doesn't always mean moving the problem into someone else's backyard, in fact I wouldn't go there. There is still wide open territory. Well, maybe I'm being a Pollyanna. Is there a lot of space where humans don't go?

 

Lately we've gotten two of northwestern Montana's "Problem Grizzlies" and they haven't created much of a problem when let loose up in northern Idaho.

 

And I've subsequently found out that when I set my Gem & Estelle cache, the bear I saw was most probably the one from the Yaak (MT). I'm still alive, so...

I'll bet those grizzlies haven't attacked a human yet. They're problem bears because they were entering a town causing a potential for more serious issues. And that's where the difference is.

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Relocating doesn't always mean moving the problem into someone else's backyard, in fact I wouldn't go there. There is still wide open territory. Well, maybe I'm being a Pollyanna. Is there a lot of space where humans don't go?

 

Lately we've gotten two of northwestern Montana's "Problem Grizzlies" and they haven't created much of a problem when let loose up in northern Idaho.

 

And I've subsequently found out that when I set my Gem & Estelle cache, the bear I saw was most probably the one from the Yaak (MT). I'm still alive, so...

I'll bet those grizzlies haven't attacked a human yet. They're problem bears because they were entering a town causing a potential for more serious issues. And that's where the difference is.

 

I was just commenting on the relocation comment, not specifically attacking a human. Every bear that's attacked a human for any reason that I've heard of has been killed.

Edited by IDLookout
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I thought your position was to save the bear, and I've had no problems with bears myself, I was willing to defend the bear.

 

But, some places you don't expect to see a bear, you go in behaving as you would anywhere else. I don't have a dog, but it seems there are so few places you can let them run free anymore. Our population is increasing. Did you see the story about the family who had 17 children and wanted more? They were being applauded for their parenting skills. (Apologies to all of you out there who have 17 children).

 

So, do we save the bear? Was it the bear's fault that someone came along and scared the heck out of it? Is there any way to put it back into its natural environment? And, more importantly, where are we headed, as a human race with an increasingly overloaded planet?

 

~Best

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We don't take the Bremerton Sun, but there must have been an article about a Seabeck Woman shooting a bear and then when they were tracking it, the bear attacked the woman who got off a shot with her

30-06 and her husband finished off the bear with a 44 handgun. If you google something like Seabeck Woman shoots bear, you will probable get the information. Dick

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I thought your position was to save the bear, and I've had no problems with bears myself, I was willing to defend the bear.

 

But, some places you don't expect to see a bear, you go in behaving as you would anywhere else. I don't have a dog, but it seems there are so few places you can let them run free anymore. Our population is increasing. Did you see the story about the family who had 17 children and wanted more? They were being applauded for their parenting skills. (Apologies to all of you out there who have 17 children).

 

So, do we save the bear? Was it the bear's fault that someone came along and scared the heck out of it? Is there any way to put it back into its natural environment? And, more importantly, where are we headed, as a human race with an increasingly overloaded planet?

 

~Best

It was never my position to save this particular bear. You'll need to re-read my posts. I was/am angry the bear has to be punished by death because someone was careless. That being said, policies on how to deal with bears have been set in place based on the level of interaction they have with man based on what we know of bears and their ability to learn and pass down their lessons.

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I did go back and re-read your posts and have always respected you. I wouldn't want to meet that bear in the woods. Not so much.

 

My point is that at the rate humans are reproducing, and creating trash and car emissions, and building houses deeper and deeper into the woods, well...you're going to lose more bears. And other species. And there will be more unpleasant encounters on the way to making them extinct. That's not an original thought, but it's the sad truth.

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And is that Pink Floyd? The lunatic is in my head?

 

I'd have to list that way up in my top 10 albums, (and, yes, I'm old enough to be talking vinyl) of all time, as far as differing perceptions.

Yep it is. My all time favorite too but for very odd reasons which I won't go into here. :huh:

 

My point is that at the rate humans are reproducing, and creating trash and car emissions, and building houses deeper and deeper into the woods, well...you're going to lose more bears. And other species. And there will be more unpleasant encounters on the way to making them extinct. That's not an original thought, but it's the sad truth.

 

I can't help but think you just shrugged your shoulders and said its going to happen anyway so why bother? If I misinterpreted that, I apologize. However, based on my perception, I'll answer with that's why we need to bother. It is our responsibility to do what we can to protect those most threatened by our encroachment, careless actions, and attitudes.

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