Geocoin Thievery

[+keewee]

I have to jump in here and say that it is great to see people putting forward level headed, personal views with out getting personal, and that everyone is being accepting of others views, even when they don't agree. Well done everyone.

 

I personally will move copies (usually) as long as they are not really, really lame. Sure, it is disappointing to not find the real thing, but I can understand why people do it, especially if it is the result of theft or vandalism. I have enhanced a copy of a TB I came across, where the original had been destroyed while in Japan, and was replaced with a laminated card with a photo of the original TB. The original had been a memory SIMM, and being in IT I had old ones kicking around. So I contacted the owner and asked if they'd like me to tack on a real memory SIMM and they said thanks. So I did.

 

But, we are very, very lucky down here in New Zealand - not many go missing or are vandalised, so we usually see the real deal.

 

Anyone wanting some released into a safe environment - contact me.

[+Renegade Knight]

....Groundspeak does not discuss disciplinary actions in public.

 

These matters are kept between Groundspeak and the one being disciplined. This does not mean actions are not taken when required, we just do not hold public floggings, that went out centuries ago.

 

Groundspeak should publish what punishment goes with what Groundspeak crime. Even if Groundspeak chooses to hide it's disciplinary actions, we all should be aware of the consequences of our actions if they are deemed wrong.

 

For what it's worth, our court system does discuss it's actions to the public. They don't need to video an execution, but they do need to be able to say what's what at ever step of the way. No higher purpose is served when disciplinary actions are hidden. Unless they are innocent, but then we aren't supposed to punish the innocent.

[+keewee]

Maybe Eartha can explain what disciplinary action Groundspeak is going to take on a geocacher who openly admits to taking and destroying another players TBs. He destroys them because he doesn't like copies? I don't mind a copy, it is TB and that is all. I like geocoins a lot but I really don't think that all the others geocachers in the world must cater to my likes and dislikes, if they select a TB and place it in the game, I will move it.

 

Groundspeak does not discuss disciplinary actions in public.

 

These matters are kept between Groundspeak and the one being disciplined. This does not mean actions are not taken when required, we just do not hold public floggings, that went out centuries ago.

 

The issue is that the rest of us never, ever hear anything about it so we never know if Groundspeak does actually do anything. It is good to know that, from what you are saying, they do. Thanks Eartha.

[+Frozen Buns]

I have found that a sure way to keep a Coin IN Play is to drill a hole in it, put a key ring through the hole and a note telling what its mission is. So far so good,

[+Renegade Knight]

....Lots of people play the game slightly differently. I'm ok with that. If you want to keep your coins and release copies, I can live with that (even if I don't support it). I promise not to leave a snide log (I've seen alot of them for copy coins) and I won't do anything to damage or interfere with your TB. But, I also won't move it as a matter of personal choice. I'll let someone else come along and make a personal choice to help it move. ...

That works.

[+Renegade Knight]

Maybe Eartha can explain what disciplinary action Groundspeak is going to take on a geocacher who openly admits to taking and destroying another players TBs. He destroys them because he doesn't like copies? I don't mind a copy, it is TB and that is all. I like geocoins a lot but I really don't think that all the others geocachers in the world must cater to my likes and dislikes, if they select a TB and place it in the game, I will move it.

 

Groundspeak does not discuss disciplinary actions in public.

 

These matters are kept between Groundspeak and the one being disciplined. This does not mean actions are not taken when required, we just do not hold public floggings, that went out centuries ago.

 

The issue is that the rest of us never, ever hear anything about it so we never know if Groundspeak does actually do anything. It is good to know that, from what you are saying, they do. Thanks Eartha.

 

If you don't hear where they bury the bodies, you can't dig them up.

[+keewee]

Maybe Eartha can explain what disciplinary action Groundspeak is going to take on a geocacher who openly admits to taking and destroying another players TBs. He destroys them because he doesn't like copies? I don't mind a copy, it is TB and that is all. I like geocoins a lot but I really don't think that all the others geocachers in the world must cater to my likes and dislikes, if they select a TB and place it in the game, I will move it.

 

Groundspeak does not discuss disciplinary actions in public.

 

These matters are kept between Groundspeak and the one being disciplined. This does not mean actions are not taken when required, we just do not hold public floggings, that went out centuries ago.

 

The issue is that the rest of us never, ever hear anything about it so we never know if Groundspeak does actually do anything. It is good to know that, from what you are saying, they do. Thanks Eartha.

 

If you don't hear where they bury the bodies, you can't dig them up.

 

And, playing devils advocate, if you never hear about bodies being buried, then you think can get away with it - that there won't be any negative consequences.

[+wavector]

Groundspeak does not discuss disciplinary actions in public.

 

These matters are kept between Groundspeak and the one being disciplined. This does not mean actions are not taken when required, we just do not hold public floggings, that went out centuries ago.

 

Say what?

 

Public flogging? I don't think you are allowed to do that even if they did agree to your "Terms of Use".

 

I just hope that geocachers are aware that Groundspeak does recognize that it is not OK to take others TBs and destroy them because they don't meet a personal standard. Chapterhouse went a bit overboard and I think most of the people reading these forums do know that but that other guy went way way overboard.

 

Maybe we can get that other guy to come into the Forums so we can flog him a little with some wet noodles.

[+tokencollector]

I hope that most people recognize that I did not come up with the idea of helping other geocachers by moving their TB's so doing that is not playing the game "my way" it is actually the way the game is played. The TB is one of the two basic gamepieces in geocaching, it is a way to connect to other geocachers, a way to help them.

You don't come off as argumentative, you come off as sour which is exactly where I started.

Artificial coins are not what I was hoping to find and not what I try to promote by dropping hundresds of real travelling geocoins in geocaches.

So bully for you, you put real geocoins in caches and refuse to move other peoples TB's because they don't meet the standard you wish to promote. That is exactly what I said, you think other people have to please you.

As a matter of course I move every TB I find in a geocache unless I cannot help it along in it's mission. I don't judge the geocacher who placed the TB into the game, I don't judge the TB's I find and I don't try to "promote" some TBs and "demote" others, I try to help them all. This is pretty simple stuff and your answers are very clear. Let me guess, you also think you are really helpful and friendly. (as long as they put real geocoins in caches that is)

 

I am glad you recognize that the geocacher pointed out by Chapterhouse is a blot on the game and his actions are completely out to lunch. I am happy to know that you don't destroy the TBs of other geocachers.

 

At one level, I hate micturating contests, but I’m way too easy to bait.

 

If I come off as sour, that’s too bad. It would be silly of me to think I could please everyone. You asked why I would choose not (ok, you said refuse) to move a copy of a coin. I tried to give a straight, informative answer – from reading these forums over the years and coin logs, I know many others share my view, at least in part. There are many who don’t care for copy coins and who are aren’t ashamed to be unpleasant about them. Some folks like them – good for them, have at ‘em. I generally choose to take a passive approach and ignore copies of coins.

 

Please be careful in ascribing motive. You grossly misrepresent me when you stated that “you think other people have to please you.”

 

At the risk of doing the same disservice, your post seems rather condescending which implies displeasure that my actions or motives don’t meet your standards and hence don’t please you. Although you did not invent the idea of helping other people’s TBs move, your writing has promoted an additional requirement that everyone must ignore personal interest, quality and merit and help all equally – which is not the way “the game is played” by everyone.

 

I do think you have pretty high standards. By corollary, it would seem that anyone who doesn’t move every TB that they come across (that they could help) isn’t playing the game correctly either. I’ve met quite a few cachers who chose not to move TBs or choose to move only a few and they didn’t seem sour to me. They just chose not to participate fully in that aspect of the game.

 

It’s great that you move everything that you can and do not discriminate on any basis. (tone can be lost in typing – I mean that sincerely, not sarcastically) I’ve come across relatively few geocachers who are that dedicated to moving TBs. Personally, I hope that everyone who picks up my TBs is that conscientious. But, in reality, I know better. Some will move them quickly, others will hold them for a month or two or ten. Overall, I’m happy for the movements that I see and I’m just as glad to see a coin move that has been held for three months as I am to see movement of one that has been held for less than a week. And, I really don’t fret or judge those who visit a cache and leave my TB for another cacher to move.

 

I drop real coins in caches for a number of reasons. In general, I think they are a bargain relative to TB dog tags. They are easy to move from cache to cache. They tend to move more quickly than TB dog tags. And, people enjoy finding them in geocaches. I don’t put out copies because I think they are lame (sorry, but that is my opinion, and I’m sticking with it), because I wouldn’t enjoy reading the types of logs that I often see for copy coins, and because many geocachers discriminate against them and choose not to move them.

 

I do try to be helpful and friendly. I’ll grab as many TBs (coins or traditional) as I can help in a reasonable timeframe and I try to leave geocaches better stocked and in as good or better condition than when I found them. But you are right, I’m not as friendly toward geocoin copies as I am to other TBs. Just because I enjoy (and try to support geocaching) in general does not mean that I have should support every aspect of geocaching whether or not I like it.

 

A nice thing about geocaching is that different people can participate in the hobby in any number of ways and at many different levels. There are common courtesies that should be followed, but there are few hard rules. And, I think it’s great that one of the rules that does not exist is “Thou shall move every TB that you can regardless of whether you like it or not.” If that were a requirement of geocaching, I (and many others) would probably move on to something else. It’s great that you do move every bug you can – but it’s great that it’s not a requirement as well.

 

And lest there be any mistaken impressions - if you choose to send out a copy because you want to keep the original and share the icon or to replace a stolen coin – go for it. Lots of people do it and it is a common practice. Copies are apparently condoned by Groundspeak, and it’s you right to play the game that way. My opinion of the practice really doesn’t matter much in the end. However, at the risk of sounding sour, I reserve the right to discriminate against McCoins (even the really good ones). I would rather find a real geocoin, so I’ll do my bit to encourage the practice or releasing real geocoins setting an example of releasing real coins and by helping to move the real thing.

 

I think real coins in caches are a positive for the game and I’ll do what I can to encourage that part of the game. Whether you agree or not, I think McCoins are not as positive as real coins and while I will no nothing to discourage them, I also generally won’t support them.

 

edited for $#%# typos

Edited September 21, 2007 by tokencollector

[+Lazer]

I too have placed coins and they have gone missing, so I've just got a huge book that I take with me to events so others can see the coins and log them. I have a travel bug that is the book so I can email the list of the coins to the person when they discover my travel bug so that way I don't have to keep lists with me and others don't have to write down EVERY tracking number of the coin.

 

I often wonder if at least some of the time a newer cacher that may not be familiar with geocoins finds a geocache and takes the coin not knowing to log it separately or thinks its just a swag item so they use them as trade items

[+tokencollector]

I need to go to bed . . . but only after one more simple but blunt example regarding copies.

 

The coolest (in my opinion) TB that I ever released was a tubular rare earth magnet (Stuck on You). I bought a lot of magnets to find one that was strong enough to be fun, but no so strong as to be dangerous. It bounced around from cache to cache for a while and garnered some interesting logs. Unfortunately, it was eventually lost.

 

I could grab the copy tag and put a washer or laminated picture of the magnet on a chain and send it on its way. It would not be nearly as fun to find as the original TB. And while I suspect I wouldn’t get hate mail for it, I expect that it would be viewed as lame and would probably languish in the bottom of a cache somewhere. I’d bet that people wouldn’t be as willing to grab the “copy” as they would the original.

 

Would it be nice if people ignored the deficiency of the replacement and would be willing to move it just the same? Yes. But, human nature being what it is – the more typical reaction would be to take something (anything?) else instead.

 

Likewise, a copy coin is a still TB. But it is not nearly as cool to find as a real geocoin (many would say disappointing to find) and not nearly as enticing to move. Though, the icon does provide a little extra motivation for moving the McCoin.

 

In an ideal world, people might look past (insert favorite pejorative term here) used as a TB and move it anyway. And fortunately some (hopefully many) do. But, I and many other cachers are human and we’ll prefer to move the cool stuff and leave the (pejorative term) stuff behind. And, for better or worse, for many the (pejorative term) stuff includes McCoins.

 

Sad, perhaps. Sour, I think not. But, like it or not, it is probably an accurate picture from the front lines. If it bothers you, don’t simply condemn it – decide what could be done to improve the situation.

 

(And to seek some redemption before anyone jumps into my scat and condemns me for my human nature, I have been known to occasionally move and/or repair some (pejorative term) stuff too.)

[+wavector]

I think real coins in caches are a positive for the game and I’ll do what I can to encourage that part of the game. Whether you agree or not, I think McCoins are not as positive as real coins and while I will no nothing to discourage them, I also generally won’t support them.

edited for $#%# typos

 

I agree, real geocoins are a great thing to find in a cache.

 

It isn't a pissing contest so much as trying to clarify that I think Chapterhouse was perfectly justified in coming in here and complaining about the actions of that other geocacher, he actually didn't complain so much as he spammed everyone but at least his point was made, I wonder if he got his posting privileges revoked for spamming.

 

Destroying TBs because you don't like them is never acceptable, it doesn't matter if they are fake geocoin TBs or rosary beads or petrified dinosaur droppings.

 

I can understand why Eartha was mad at Chapterhouse but the other guy is a problem for everyone, his attitude may be acceptable to some he didn't stop at being sour about finding a TB he thought was lame, he took it out of play and destroyed it and then proceeded to explain why he felt justified in doing so.

 

I think you are very level and I think you make your points well but I don't think you will convince me that your refusal to move certain TBs because you think they are lame is positive, I will continue to view that as "sour".

A fake geocoin is just another TB and every TB is an opportunity to help another geocacher.

 

Did you actually read the logs left by that other guy?

There is no defense that works, his actions were way beyond the pale.

 

I enjoy talking to people who are willing to try and make their points politely. I am sorry if I come off as condescending because I really don't feel that way. I found a TB in the very first cache I ever found and I moved it, since then I have moved a lot of TB's, every one I see actually. I move them because I know that I am connecting to another geocacher when I do that. I don't see a fake geocoin, I see another geocachers TB. I think Chapterhouse likes his fake geocoin TBs a lot, I think Chapterhouse really doesn't think they are lame but thinks they are just TBs. I think his anger at having his TBs destroyed by someone who adjudged them "lame" was entirely justified.

 

I also think Eartha was entirely justified in getting angry because it was SPAM.

[+tokencollector]

 

[Lots of words that I agree wholeheartedly with.]

 

 

After reading Eartha's post, I dug around for the remaining chapterhouse post. It seemed pretty reasonable - including referencing the TB (I presume so that one could see what he was referring to - I didn't hunt the link.)

 

We may not look at TBs in exactly the same way, but destruction of someone's property is certainly way over the limit. It's one thing to dislike someone else's legit TB. It's another thing entirely to take the law into your own hands and lynch their bug. I can understand why a cacher would be outraged that his TB would be destroyed and want to see that something was done about it.

Edited September 21, 2007 by tokencollector

[+Eartha]

 

After reading Eartha's post, I dug around for the remaining chapterhouse post. It seemed pretty reasonable - including referencing the TB (I presume so that one could see what he was referring to - I didn't hunt the link.)

 

 

Which is why that post was allowed to remain. The rest contained private emails, and were spam.

 

I also think Eartha was entirely justified in getting angry because it was SPAM.

 

I did not get angry. I read the posts, I did what was required by the forum guidelines, and yes, I was a little exasperated having to edit 9 threads, and report a 10th, but I do not get angry doing this volunteer job. That would be bad for someone in a moderator position to have a temper, don't you think?

[+keewee]

...but I do not get angry doing this volunteer job. That would be bad for someone in a moderator position to have a temper, don't you think?

 

it would certainly make life interesting for those in the forums!

 

Oh man, I've been kicked from the forums for the 10th time today! And my avatar is now a WHAT!?

 

[+wavector]

That would be bad for someone in a moderator position to have a temper, don't you think?

 

No, I think everyone has a temper, some are more temperate than others but everyone has certain definite limits.

 

I really get pissed off when moderators try and advance their personal agendas using the moderator mode on any Forum. I also get pissed when moderators try to advance ideas that are clearly incorrect or contrary to established guidelines using the moderator mode.

 

Moderators have tempers. I don't blame you for geting "upset" for having to edit ten threads but I don't buy into the idea that you could never get angry, I bet I could piss you off if I really tried hard!

 

I think you are perhaps one of the most moderate moderators I have encountered online, certainly among the most moderate on this site, and I admire that, but that means that when your displeasure is obvious you do appear to me to be angry. Anger is not necessarily a bad thing, it is just another emotion and has a place in the repertoire of human interaction.

 

I disagree with you completely on the subject of emails, there is no guarantee of privacy in any unsolicited email. If you send me an email I feel quite free to post it, any expectation of privacy on your part is not warranted. I have received emails from geocachers urging me to a certain course of thought wherein the character of the writer was obvious, are you suggesting that by sending me an email they are binding me to silence? Extrapolate a bit, if I receive "hate mail" your suggestion is that I cannot talk about it or make it public because the person sending the email has some reasonable expectation of privacy? You are suggesting that complaining to the authorities about spam by sending them copies of the spam violates the spammers expectation of privacy, I don't think so.

 

Chapterhouse was entirely warranted in complaining. I hope you just gave him a warning rather than a suspension, that other geocacher was clearly out of line.

 

Disclaimer - I don't know Chapterhouse, I have never had any communication with Chapterhouse and I don't have any connection with any of the people involved.

[+Renegade Knight]

....If you don't hear where they bury the bodies, you can't dig them up.

 

And, playing devils advocate, if you never hear about bodies being buried, then you think can get away with it - that there won't be any negative consequences.

Exactly. It make it more likely that you or I will be one of those bodies.

[+Eartha]

That would be bad for someone in a moderator position to have a temper, don't you think?

 

No, I think everyone has a temper, some are more temperate than others but everyone has certain definite limits.

 

I really get pissed off when moderators try and advance their personal agendas using the moderator mode on any Forum. I also get pissed when moderators try to advance ideas that are clearly incorrect or contrary to established guidelines using the moderator mode.

 

And that isn't me

 

Moderators have tempers. I don't blame you for geting "upset" for having to edit ten threads but I don't buy into the idea that you could never get angry, I bet I could piss you off if I really tried hard!

 

It would take a lot, but please don't try. "Upset" isn't even the word for it. Think milder, it was just time I could have spent doing a lot better things, like packing up for caching, getting waypoints, loading my GPS, getting a pq, anything but scrolling through ten posts and editing them. Because I still have to get around to doing all of those things now, so I can have some fun too.

 

I think you are perhaps one of the most moderate moderators I have encountered online, certainly among the most moderate on this site, and I admire that, but that means that when your displeasure is obvious you do appear to me to be angry. Anger is not necessarily a bad thing, it is just another emotion and has a place in the repertoire of human interaction.

 

Thank you. I read twice before hitting submit, and most of my edits afterwards are done for spelling errors.

 

I disagree with you completely on the subject of emails, there is no guarantee of privacy in any unsolicited email. If you send me an email I feel quite free to post it, any expectation of privacy on your part is not warranted. I have received emails from geocachers urging me to a certain course of thought wherein the character of the writer was obvious, are you suggesting that by sending me an email they are binding me to silence? Extrapolate a bit, if I receive "hate mail" your suggestion is that I cannot talk about it or make it public because the person sending the email has some reasonable expectation of privacy? You are suggesting that complaining to the authorities about spam by sending them copies of the spam violates the spammers expectation of privacy, I don't think so.

 

Posting private emails is against the forum guidelines, and any discussions between two people that doesn't involve the community are supposed to be kept private. People should have a reasonable expectation that anything said in private, is kept private. The posts made by "the other cacher" were on a cache page, and that is public information, however the beef between the two parties should be between them and Groundspeak, no one else.

 

Chapterhouse was entirely warranted in complaining. I hope you just gave him a warning rather than a suspension, that other geocacher was clearly out of line.

 

Agreed, and I didn't completely obliterate ChapterhouseInc's complaint. I merely kept it to one thread and took out the private matters, and Groundspeak handles the rest.

 

Disclaimer - I don't know Chapterhouse, I have never had any communication with Chapterhouse and I don't have any connection with any of the people involved.

[+Eartha]

Now, let us put this thread back on the topic, and leave me out of it. We can still discuss this matter without talking about how a moderator operates.

[northwildwoodnjman19]

HeyI just had a thought!!! (dangerous) Does anybody know someone that works for LoJack? Maybe we could develop a new coin that could be tracked electronically. Than when the coin disappears, we could activate the tracking device, already built into the coin, and find and recover the coin.

 

I way just thinking the same thing. I just started Geocaching yesterday and aleady I read about a local cache that people are stealing the coins out of instead of sending then on to other caches. So they ask that if you put a trackable item in the cache, do not post it online so the thief doesn't know its in the cache. People can still steal them I guess but at least they wont go only to the caches with the trackable items in them to steal them. Yhe only other option is to not make things trackable anymore.