Raffle Listings on Event pages

[+genegene]

Not sure where this topic belongs so I'm starting it here.

 

I am in the process of doing my first event picnic and I want to do a 50/50 raffle with all the money raised, going towards next years picnic event. Initially was told that I could not post a 50/50 raffle on the listing. A brief reason was given.

 

Then when I was looking around at how other picnics are being done I noticed that one group has stated that " raffle sales begin at 9:00am ". So I changed the listing to say this: ( " When you arrive you are given a ticket for the prize drawings at the end of the day and have an option to buy a special raffle ticket, with all proceeds going towards next years picnic." ). Isn't this the same thing as saying that there will be a raffle sale like the other picnic is doing.

 

We do not have an official website or group leaders yet but I did start a Group on Yahoo before I thought about hosting the picnic. I have had a lot of help on getting the final listing done before posting it to Geocaching.com.

 

So my questions are, why is a 50/50 not aloud to be posted on GC.com, Why is it that one group can sell raffle tickets for a lot of big prizes, But I cant for one big prize. Is the 50/50 raffle " not aloud to be listed " more of a guideline then a rule.

 

My administrator has asked me to remove the entire mention of selling a ticket and the 50/50 from the listing. I will comply with the request, even though I do not agree with it. I have asked many Questions of my administrator and I believe have built up a good Rep. I do not want to be on the bad side of my Administrator in any way, but this whole thing has me a bit confused.

 

Any help on this issue would be great.

[+FamilyDNA]

The 50/50 raffle would be gambling, which is, I believe, why it is prohibited. A raffle for premade caches or other donated items is a different thing. Especially if you get the ticket for a "donation" to the kitty.

[+genegene]

If I asked for donations for next years picnic that would be OK? And

if I changed it to say: ( When you arrive you are given a ticket for the prize drawings at the end of the day and have an option to buy more Raffle tickets for 50 cents a ticket, with all proceeds going towards next years event, prizes and park fees. ) Would this be acceptable in the listing and in cachers eyes.

 

I really want this to go over well but am on limited funds to pay for everything my self. Next year I hope to have a bigger group of people to help make all the preparations then this year. I will also have a sign up sheet for local cachers to sign up if they want to help next year.

[+Thrak]

I'm sure there are a number of events where a 50/50 raffle is held. It just isn't listed on the cache page. I agree with the guess regarding the "gambling" aspect of the raffle. That's probably why it won't be accepted on the cache listing page.

[+Lil Devil]

Why not just say "there will be contests and a raffle" on the cache page and explain the details at the event itself. I highly doubt anyone will base their decision to come on exactly what kind of raffle you're having.

[+wimseyguy]

I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV.

But I'm willing to bet that your reviewer looked at the applicable laws for your state and he determined that they do not allow the raffle you proposed. And the guidelines do cover that issue: "We also assume that your cache placement complies with all applicable laws. If an obvious legal issue is present, or is brought to our attention, your listing may be immediately archived."

 

Keeping the description in the listing vanilla is the best way to proceed.

And complying with all local laws is a good idea too.

[+Isonzo Karst]

My understanding is that a 50/50 raffle splits the money between the raffle holder and the holder of the winning raffle ticket? This is gambling in many states and can't be on a geocache listing because it is illegal.

 

Just stick with, there will be a raffle. Or just flat out ask for donations. I hate raffles at events, I'd rather just hand you $5 or $10.

[+briansnat]

This is gambling in many states and can't be on a geocache listing because it is illegal.

 

From what I could determine raffles are only illegal in Arkansas, Kansas and Hawaii. Many other states require permits

[+Moose Mob]

GC does not allow "for profit" events, but it does allow for reimbursement of expenses. Raffles are only one way to collect them, but Raffles may or may not be legal in a given area.

[+txoilgas]

I believe that if you want an event you should realize the cost of doing so. I have been to a number of events where the various hosts had elaborate food layouts to those that the host gave away a few cache containers. We have a lot of breakfast and lunch events which are meant to just have a bunch of fun and to go caching. The attendance will range from to 20 to over 70. The attendance did not depend on what was going on necessarly. An event for a cacher that had 4000 finds and 400 hides was a big event and lasted most of the day at the home of the cacher that was being honored.

 

To think people should reimburse you for your expense of the event I believe is asking a bit much. To me is sounds like you would like people to contribute money for each cache they find. Just have the event for the fun of the event.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Some of us can't just foot the entire bill ourselves Tx...sure having a cheap and easy M&G is great, but we host a weekend event which costs a few $$$ to get together!

 

We had coins made, using the profits to go into the event. We also had a silent auction of some donated items, which really helped considerably. I didn't want everyone paying for the event, but I also didn't have the funds to pay for everything myself.

 

I'm sure we could do it on the cheap, but with a little help from friends and the caching community, we had a GREAT weekend and will continue to host these as long as people have interest in attending!!

[+Shop99er]

We run raffles at nearly all of our events. We charge the usual $1 each, 6 for $5.

 

We also put out two donation jars.

 

We also make sure that it is well known that all the money goes to the cost of the event. And they are expensive. This way, our Reviewers know what we're up to, and everything is on the up and up.

 

{edit--fixed price info}

Edited August 10, 2007 by Shop99er

[+Always & Forever 5]

We run raffles at nearly all of our events. We charge the usual $1 each, 5 for $6.

 

Ummm, I'll just buy mine one at a time, then, and save $1...

[+andGuest]

I will start by saying I am not a lawyer and am only going to relay a personal experience. Also that the event took place in PA.

I used to be in a car club that had an annual cruise to benefit 2 local fire companies. We were informed by the local law enforcement that raffles were illegal and that he would be stopping by the cruise to make sure tickets were not being sold. Therefore they took donations and used the raffle prizes already purchased as door prizes. For attending the cruise it was $10 to register your car but don't think you could charge admission to an event.

For those that say that it is done at events that they attend. Just because they do it does not mean it is legal. Everyone talks about things that could reflect poorly upon geocaching and I think an article in a newspaper about cachers illegally gambling might reflect poorly. It would only take 1 hard nosed police officer to spoil the day.

[+Thrak]

In my local group our events are simple. We meet at a restaurant or park and have a potluck type of picnic (most recently we had a potluck breakfast at a park). Restaurant meets have been handled two ways - some are at a buffet and everybody pays for their own meals. Others have been at nicer places and we paid a set fee each for our meal. The cost of the meeting place and, in the case of the nicer meals, the cost of food prep, etc., is paid for out of our general fund. Pretty much anybody who wants to host an event can obtain funding (within reason) to rent a park pavillion, pay for the electricity, etc. We do have raffles where caches, etc. are raffled off. They are donated by members and the money from the raffle goes into the general fund. Same thing with a 50/50. The money goes into the fund. We also raffled off a number of sets of our group geocoins and, again, the money went to the fund. We thought we were doing pretty well but, all of a sudden, our fund looks pretty small. We're co-hosting GW VI. Just imagine what THAT is going to cost.

[+benh57]

We do have raffles where caches, etc. are raffled off. They are donated by members and the money from the raffle goes into the general fund. Same thing with a 50/50. The money goes into the fund. We also raffled off a number of sets of our group geocoins and, again, the money went to the fund. We thought we were doing pretty well but, all of a sudden, our fund looks pretty small. We're co-hosting GW VI. Just imagine what THAT is going to cost.

 

Thrak, it sounds like your raffles have been illegal in the state of CA.

 

Unless you have a nonprofit organization and a permit for each raffle.

 

http://ag.ca.gov/charities/faq.php#raffles

 

http://ag.ca.gov/charities/raffles.php

 

(donations and door prizes would probably be a legal method, like the cacher above used)

Edited August 10, 2007 by benh57

[+benh57]

We run raffles at nearly all of our events. We charge the usual $1 each, 5 for $6.

 

We also put out two donation jars.

 

We also make sure that it is well known that all the money goes to the cost of the event. And they are expensive. This way, our Reviewers know what we're up to, and everything is on the up and up.

 

I'm pretty certain this is illegal in washington state, too.

 

http://www.wsgc.wa.gov/faq/raffles_faq.asp

 

You need to be a charitable organization to hold a raffle. You can't just SAY 'it's going to expenses' - the law protects the public from unscrupulous people dong that - you have to legally confirm that, by being a charitable org.

 

http://www.wsgc.wa.gov/newsletters/5-164.pdf - states specifically that only certain bona fide organizations can perform raffles. A 'social' organization is OK, but there are some strict requirements such as notifying the police about 'public raffles', which a geocaching event would be.

Edited August 10, 2007 by benh57

[+FireRef]

Just about every event I have been to in some form or other has a 50/50 raffle as a fundraiser, and I guarantee most of them don't get a permit.

 

Almost every wedding I've ever been to, they've had one at the stag, one at the shower, and one at the reception, all benefiting the couple. I don't believe the couple actually sponsors them, but it is definitely a personal for-profit enterprise. How many have I ever heard of being prosecuted? None...

 

But you are right - it would look bad to associate gambling and geocaching...

[+niffir]

 

Almost every wedding I've ever been to, they've had one at the stag, one at the shower, and one at the reception, all benefiting the couple. I don't believe the couple actually sponsors them, but it is definitely a personal for-profit enterprise. How many have I ever heard of being prosecuted? None...

 

 

Wow...I've certainly never heard of doing that.

[+The Leprechauns]

Marriages have a 50-50 chance of working vs. ending in divorce. So it seems fitting to recognize this fact on the big day, by taking a gamble.

Edited August 10, 2007 by The Leprechauns

[+genegene]

I have just received another e-mail about the raffle and this is what I wrote and this is what I received back.

_____________________________________________________

When you arrive you will be given a ticket for the prize drawings at the end of the day and have an option to buy additional Raffle tickets for 50 cents a ticket, with all proceeds going towards next years event, prizes, and park fees.

_____________________________________________________

again, you CANNOT discuss the raffle on the cache page.

 

This is what I am hearing from Groundspeak. If you would like to ask them about it, please send them an email at contact@Groundspeak.com - make sure you reference the GC#.

 

I cannot publish this event with that info in there.

_______________________________________________________

 

What I don't understand is that in this listing, NY Capital Region Geocachers 5th annual picnic GC10EE5, has it written this way Saturday, September 15th, 2006

9:00am -- Registration Opens

9:00am -- Coin Sales Begin

9:00am -- Poker Run Registration

9:00am -- Downloading of Coordinates

9:00am -- Raffle Ticket Sales

10:00am -- Geocoin trading at the pavilion

11:45am -- Potluck Lunch

3:00pm -- 5:00pm Poker Run Check In

5:00pm -- Group Photo

5:15pm -- Raffle and Game Winners Announced

7:00pm -- Night caches available

8:00pm -- Campfire --At the pavilion

 

9:00am -- Raffle Ticket Sales ? why are they allowed to post it and I'm not?

 

I'm going to contact G.S. and find out the real reason for this and post it as soon as I here back from them.

[Keystone]

There is no vast frog-driven conspiracy against you or your event.

 

There are lots of reasons why a raffle is mentioned on the other event cache page. It could have been added after review and publication -- I find this to be a very common problem with events, as the organizers want to get a page up, and then they "fill in the details" later on, but in a way that violates the guidelines. Or, the reviewer could have missed that one line. We're human. Well, except for mtn-man.

 

Please worry about your own event, and focus on having fun. Stay away from stuff that isn't fun.

[Mushtang]

We're human. Well, except for mtn-man.

Hey now, that's my reviewer you're talking about. Don't make me come up there!

[+genegene]

Keystone:

 

When you say

 

" There is no vast frog-driven conspiracy against you or your event. "

 

I do believe you and in no way do I think that.

It sounds like that this is a continuing problem when it comes to events and that no one enforces the rules unless its reported. If I thought I could get away with it I would try the "EDIT LATER" idea. Unfortunately I am one that does not want to break the rules and get in trouble with GS or my administrator, besides mine might be coming to the event and I don't want to be on the bad side and get yelled at in front of everyone.

[+Shop99er]

We run raffles at nearly all of our events. We charge the usual $1 each, 5 for $6.

 

Ummm, I'll just buy mine one at a time, then, and save $1...

 

Oops...That should have said 6 for $5.....

[+The Herd]

We hold 50/50 drawings at our annual Pokagon Cacher's Campout, held every September here in Indiana. We originally posted this on the cache page, however, when the IDNR got on board as a sponsor, we had to remove it, as the IDNR can't sponsor an event with "obvious gambling." People know it's there, mostly because this is the 3rd year for it, and they were made aware of it when they attended a prior year.

We are hosting a small event here this month. We had to pay more for the shelter than we expected, therefore, we are holding a 50/50 at this event as well. We weren't given any problems with the listing. If we did though, I would just simply remove it, and promote it at the event itself. People are MORE THAN WILLING to help with things like this, ESPECIALLY if they know that the money is going to help defray costs. Just make sure that you let them know when they arrive/register.

 

Good luck with your event!

[+Ambrosia]

We run raffles at nearly all of our events. We charge the usual $1 each, 5 for $6.

 

Ummm, I'll just buy mine one at a time, then, and save $1...

 

Oops...That should have said 6 for $5.....

[avroair]

I just read through all of this and thought I would 'try' to help out. I spoke with Groundspeak about one of my events on a similar topic. What they are asking is that all commerical or promotional material be taken off the cache event listings. This includes, sales of geocoins (trackable or otherwise), raffles etc which are considered commercial in nature.

 

The way Groundspeak would like this to be handled is by providing a url link to another page with "For more event information click here" So that information such as that can be placed there and not on the cache page.

 

Hope this helps, here is an example: Event Page with More Info Link

[+Teamcoz]

I can only speak for the laws in New Jersey, but I would imagine most states would have similar regulations.

 

In New Jersey only not for profit organizations can hold Games of Chance (raffles), in order to do so they must first receive a registration from the State, the registrations are good for 2 to 3 years, can't remember which one. Once they are a registered organization, they can then obtain a license through the municipality in which they are holding the drawings.

 

There are fees for holding raffles that must be paid to the state and the municipality to obtain the license.

 

I would imagine if you are holding any games of chance at your event and you list it on a public website, you have the chance of getting investigated by the state. I know in NJ they have an active investigation unit.

[+FireRef]

I can only speak for the laws in New Jersey, but I would imagine most states would have similar regulations.

 

In New Jersey only not for profit organizations can hold Games of Chance (raffles), in order to do so they must first receive a registration from the State, the registrations are good for 2 to 3 years, can't remember which one. Once they are a registered organization, they can then obtain a license through the municipality in which they are holding the drawings.

 

There are fees for holding raffles that must be paid to the state and the municipality to obtain the license.

 

I would imagine if you are holding any games of chance at your event and you list it on a public website, you have the chance of getting investigated by the state. I know in NJ they have an active investigation unit.

 

So do we start calling them 45/45/10's, with the 10 being the government's take?

[+Mopar]

We've been running a "raffle" at our monthly event for years. I think it's mentioned on the event page, but I'm not really sure if it is we've just been doing it so long everyone just knows. In any case, even though we call it a raffle, it's not the same as the OP is talking about.

In ours the hosts and attendees voluntarily donate items to the raffle. These are generally on the lines of slightly better then average cache swag. everyone who attends the event (which has no admission fee) gets a chance for one of the prizes. On the rare occasions we have more stuff to give away then people, whatever's left goes into the next month's raffle. No money, no profits, no legal or GC.com problems (that I'm aware of).

[+genegene]

well now I edited it to say this

 

When you arrive you will be given a ticket for the "DOOR prizes" to be given away at the end of the day

 

"DOOR prizes" so far:

 

1 unactivated geocoin

1 unactivated geocoin

1 hand carved walking stick

1 $25.00 Dunkin’ Donuts rechargeable gift card ( for those early morning cachers )

1 $25.00 gift card to ARCADIAN SHOP

2 ready to place cache (evil Micros)

2 ready to place cache (regular)

 

If you have anything you would like to donate to the "Door prizes" please let me know so I can keep the list updated. The more things we have, the better the "Door prizes".

 

I think this will be allowed. let you know tomorrow

[+genegene]

still waiting . 3 days and counting

[avroair]

well now I edited it to say this

 

When you arrive you will be given a ticket for the "DOOR prizes" to be given away at the end of the day

 

"DOOR prizes" so far:

 

1 unactivated geocoin

1 unactivated geocoin

1 hand carved walking stick

1 $25.00 Dunkin’ Donuts rechargeable gift card ( for those early morning cachers )

1 $25.00 gift card to ARCADIAN SHOP

2 ready to place cache (evil Micros)

2 ready to place cache (regular)

 

If you have anything you would like to donate to the "Door prizes" please let me know so I can keep the list updated. The more things we have, the better the "Door prizes".

 

I think this will be allowed. let you know tomorrow

 

Like I said, save yourself the trouble and post it on a link to page. Groundspeak has been enforcing the commerical guidelines lately regardless of what people say they do, they probably won't be able to do that in the future if it is deemed commercial in nature by Groundspeak. I was specifically told its a 'case by case basis' so nothing is grandfathered in as being acceptable.

 

Avroair

[+NotThePainter]

We used to hold raffles at our 3 times a year Bread and Roses event. We had a corporate sponsor that donated knapsacks and $50 gift certificates. We did NOT sell tickets, we just gave the stuff away.

 

Recent Groundspeak policy changes made it so we were not allowed to mention our sponsor on the event page so we had to stop giving away stuff. Shame...

 

(And yes, I'm whining, I know...)

 

Paul

[+genegene]

deleted every thing refering to raffle or door prizes. Now i wait

[+wimseyguy]

It is possible that your reviewer had other things to do this weekend? Like find some caches himself? The guidelines do say that the initial review should take place within 72 hours, but I don't think there is anything in them about follow-up reviews. YMMV

[+Mopar]

deleted every thing refering to raffle or door prizes. Now i wait

Did you contact the reviewer by the means specified in their initial note? The reviewer does not automatically see you've made any changes. You need to contact them and let them know to review your cache again. Some like emails, some like notes left on the page. The notes don't automatically go to them either, so only use that method if the reviewer requests it.

[+CYBret]

still waiting . 3 days and counting

 

Well...I for one wouldn't expect my reviewer to have to work on his (or her) birthday!

 

Happy birthday, Madmin!

 

Edited August 13, 2007 by CYBret

[+genegene]

2 things,

 

1) I didn't realize it was her birthday

 

2) After reading all the posts I understood what was the problem and took out everything about a raffle or door prizes. then it was published. If G.S. had mad the rule a little bit clearer in the Guideline I would have not gone through all of the headaches I went through. I did add a link in the cache listing that talked about the raffle and then there was no problem with the listing