Crossing railroad tracks

[+nekom]

First of all let me state that I fully understand and agree with GC's stance on banning caches near active railroad tracks. With trespassing on railroad tracks being both dangerous and illegal, it makes perfect sense. I have a cache site in mind. The only reasonable way to get to it would be to park on a dirt road and cross the railroad tracks by going under a tunnel that carries a shallow stream. The only other way would be to walk up and over the tracks, walk several miles to the nearest street crossing, or access by boat or canoe. Is such a cache acceptable? Is crossing underneath of railroad tracks considered trespassing on railroad property? The cache itself would be plenty far enough away from the tracks. It's a really cool area that I'd like to put a cache in, but I like to avoid trouble so I figured I'd see if there was a consensus on this.

[+sbell111]

If there is a legal way to access the cache location, even if it means hiking several miles or boating in, the cache -should- be acceptable.

 

Heck, I would argue that even if there is no legal way to the location other than helicopter than the cache should still be acceptable if the cache meets the guidelines.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Maybe legal...but is there a SAFE way to get to the cache? I see you say you can go under the bridge (although I'm not sure of the RR laws involved there) or walk for some distance, that would seem good to me. Just let people know of a safe way to get there other than crossing the tracks.

[+BigFurryMonster]

Why are caches near railroad tracks not allowed? Because of the safety of the cacher, or the "threat" (creating the perception of danger by placing an object near it) to the railroad?

[+nekom]

Well I think that passing through the tunnel carrying the shallow creek under the tracks would be as safe as walking anywhere is, but I don't exactly know if that's legal. I would only want to put a reccomended route on the cache page if I'm sure it's both safe and legal. I know people are going to do what they're going to do, people will say "I'm not getting my feet wet, screw this" and go on over, but if that happens, it was their decision, not my reccomended route.

[+sbell111]

Why are caches near railroad tracks not allowed? Because of the safety of the cacher, or the "threat" (creating the perception of danger by placing an object near it) to the railroad?

Caches aren't allowed close to railroad tracks because this area is typically controlled by the railway and being there would violate trespassing laws.

[+nekom]

Caches aren't allowed close to railroad tracks because this area is typically controlled by the railway and being there would violate trespassing laws.

 

And some railroads RELENTLESSLY enforce this. I know a guy who was out with 2 friends and got arrested for being on the railroad tracks. They were all fined $300. And I think there was a particular geocacher who got into a whole heap of trouble over going after a cache on the railroad tracks, don't have the link handy but I seem to remember he had a very bad time in the courts over it.

[+Moose Mob]

The Railroad guideline is in regard to legality only. It is far to subjective for GC or the reviewers to judge what is "safe".

 

One could argue that a city park is not safe since a cacher might seek a cache at 4:00 am and get mugged. A cache that requires a person to walk a rope bridge, or a canoe, or on a cliff is far to judgemental.

 

Now legality is a different issue... let's not tempt folks to do something that is clearly illegal.

Edited August 7, 2007 by Moose Mob

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Crossing railroad tracks anywhere other than legal street crossings is definitely trespassing.

[+Harry Dolphin]

I would hazard a guess that the culverts that carry streams under the railroad tracks are not considered public right-of-way.

All in all, this does not seem like a good choice of location for placing a cache.

[+J-Way]

It depends on the size of the waterway and your local or state laws. If the waterway is defined as "navigable", then the stream might be considered public property and you can walk through the culvert the same as if you floated a canoe along a river under a large trestle.

 

And before you dismiss this, you'd be surprised how small a stream can be and still be called "navigable". When doing environmental studies for secondary containment for chemical spills, we semi-jokingly say that it's navigable if a rubber duck can successfully float on it.

 

How tall is the culvert... can a tall person walk through it standing up, or will you have to stoop over? If there is a steady flow of water year-round several inches deep, then you may be good. But to make the reviewer happy you may have to repeat the "No tresspassing" rule and clearly warn against crossing the railroad. But ultimately, you're right... in spite of these warnings, would the cacher slosh through a tunnel or just look both ways and cross the tracks?

 

To answer BigFurryMonster's question, railroads are off limits because they are DANGEROUS. The walking surfaces are uneven, unstable, and the rails can be very slick. Also, trains can move deceptively fast. You don't realize how fast because of their bulk. A cousin of mine was killed when he was literally run over by a train when he was 10. We think he slipped and hit his head and was lying across the tracks, then a freight train couldn't stop in time.

[CoyoteRed]

I'm not sure, but I think roads aren't the only place you can cross railroad tracks. I know of plenty of trails that cross rails. I do think they are marked though as I seem to remember colored ties, but I don't know if those are markers for the trail.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Established trails usually constitute a 'right of way'. Nasty crossing on the AT, near the Susquehanna, just north of Harrisburg. PA. Major warnings for hikers. Likewise for the grade crossings of the Palisades Interstate Parkway and Taconic Parkway in New York. (Though I have heard rumors of a crawl-through culvert under the Taconic being planned.)

[+nekom]

It depends on the size of the waterway and your local or state laws. If the waterway is defined as "navigable", then the stream might be considered public property and you can walk through the culvert the same as if you floated a canoe along a river under a large trestle.

 

And before you dismiss this, you'd be surprised how small a stream can be and still be called "navigable". When doing environmental studies for secondary containment for chemical spills, we semi-jokingly say that it's navigable if a rubber duck can successfully float on it.

 

How tall is the culvert... can a tall person walk through it standing up, or will you have to stoop over? If there is a steady flow of water year-round several inches deep, then you may be good. But to make the reviewer happy you may have to repeat the "No tresspassing" rule and clearly warn against crossing the railroad. But ultimately, you're right... in spite of these warnings, would the cacher slosh through a tunnel or just look both ways and cross the tracks?

 

To answer BigFurryMonster's question, railroads are off limits because they are DANGEROUS. The walking surfaces are uneven, unstable, and the rails can be very slick. Also, trains can move deceptively fast. You don't realize how fast because of their bulk. A cousin of mine was killed when he was literally run over by a train when he was 10. We think he slipped and hit his head and was lying across the tracks, then a freight train couldn't stop in time.

 

It is in no way what *I* would say is navigable, even a rubber ducky would have a hard time unless he were released after a recent rain, where it does pick up a good bit. The tunnel carrying the stream is a good I'd estimate 16-18 foot high and 8-10 foot wide, plenty big enough to walk through. Heck if you walk it on a dry day, you can do so without even getting your feet wet if you're careful.

 

The fact of the matter is nobody would ever bother you there, BUT I'm wondering if it's TECHNICALLY legal to do so, because if not, I think I might just want to pass on it completely. I'm of the `don't rock the boat' mentality when it comes to the law.

[+Juicepig]

Depends on the crossing - If its in the middle of nowhere and the trail seems to stop at the tracks and re-appear on the other side, look both ways then cross!

 

Otherwise if could be a big splat - See Canadian Pacific rail chugger below:

 

[+Jimmy System]

Just passed this by my dad who is an Operation Lifesaver presenter and has many years of working for or working with railroads. His opinion is that yes, this would be considered trespassing on RR property. Even though there may be a bridge, tunnel, or whatever that you could cross under, the ground underneath it is still considered part of the right of way and railroad property. Whether the RR would enforce this is another matter, especially if it is considered a navigable waterway.

[+whistler & co.]

If there is a legal way there, go for it! People make their own choices as to how to access a cache.

 

(Edited for idiotic spelling.)

Edited August 8, 2007 by whistler & co.

[+Thrak]

If safety was an issue then a huge number of caches wouldn't ever be published. Check out some of the Psycho Urban Cache listings. Diving or climbing caches aren't safe. Caches in bear country aren't safe. Heck, I've seen a guardrail cache wiped out several times due to the guardrail being trashed by cars hitting it.

 

You also mentioned that the cache can be reached via hiking or boat. Those are pretty valid approaches. There are many caches that are ONLY approachable via boat. Of course that isn't "safe" either.........

 

[stupid typo........]

Edited August 8, 2007 by Thrak

[+genegene]

What about Right of ways? In the next town over from me there is a pond that has a make shift boat ramp on it. It is also the heart of the Housatonic River. There is a R.R. crossing about 1 mi south of the pond. The road leading up to the boat ramp goes directly along side the R.R. Tracks. In all the years that I have traveled along and over the tracks in my car, no one has ever said anything to me, Police or R.R. personal. Using Google Earth, these are the coordinates: 42°22'42.36"N 73° 6'48.16"W = railroad crossing, 42°23'11.17"N 73° 6'48.14"W = Boat launch

[+nekom]

Thanks everybody for the insight. I don't think there's any safety reason at all, but if the tunnel is considered railroad property and there's no public right of way, I'm sure it would be illegal. As a practical matter, it's in the middle of nowhere and nobody would ever say anything, but that's not the point. here's a link to the area on topozone http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=39.960...7&layer=DRG

 

You can see that without a boat, any other approach would be a LOOOOONG walk

[+sbell111]

Thanks everybody for the insight. I don't think there's any safety reason at all, but if the tunnel is considered railroad property and there's no public right of way, I'm sure it would be illegal. As a practical matter, it's in the middle of nowhere and nobody would ever say anything, but that's not the point. here's a link to the area on topozone http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=39.960...7&layer=DRG

 

You can see that without a boat, any other approach would be a LOOOOONG walk

According to the map it would either be a half mile walk from Rices Landing Road or a boat ride. Sounds OK to me.

Edited August 8, 2007 by sbell111

[+nikcap]

Thanks everybody for the insight. I don't think there's any safety reason at all, but if the tunnel is considered railroad property and there's no public right of way, I'm sure it would be illegal. As a practical matter, it's in the middle of nowhere and nobody would ever say anything, but that's not the point. here's a link to the area on topozone http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=39.960...7&layer=DRG

 

You can see that without a boat, any other approach would be a LOOOOONG walk

 

What's wrong with a LOOOOONG walk?

 

Of course, when you obtain permission to place the cache from whoever owns the property, you can ask them for a suggested route and parking.

 

FWIW, any time I can take a "secret" tunnel to a cache I do it. I love those types of adventures!

[+sbell111]

Here's a silly question:

 

Are those railroad tracks in use? One of the maps I just looked at shows them as 'abandoned'. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's legal to cross them, but it would certainly be safer with very little chance of getting in trouble.

[+nekom]

yes, they are in use. They are former conrail that service loveridge mine and a 4 day a week local from Brownsville to Morgantown. In my spare time, I'm also a railroad buff

[+sbell111]

yes, they are in use. They are former conrail that service loveridge mine and a 4 day a week local from Brownsville to Morgantown. In my spare time, I'm also a railroad buff

I guess so.

[+Thrak]

Thanks everybody for the insight. I don't think there's any safety reason at all, but if the tunnel is considered railroad property and there's no public right of way, I'm sure it would be illegal. As a practical matter, it's in the middle of nowhere and nobody would ever say anything, but that's not the point. here's a link to the area on topozone http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=39.960...7&layer=DRG

 

You can see that without a boat, any other approach would be a LOOOOONG walk

According to the map it would either be a half mile walk from Rices Landing Road or a boat ride. Sounds OK to me.

 

LOL!!! I can't imagine calling a half mile walk a LOOOOONG walk!

[+uxorious]

Whether the RR would enforce this is another matter, especially if it is considered a navigable waterway.

 

If it is considered a navigable waterway, the RR would have no say at all, as long as you stayed in the water. (on a boat, raft, inner tube, or even just wading. )

[+PJPeters]

yes, they are in use. They are former conrail that service loveridge mine and a 4 day a week local from Brownsville to Morgantown. In my spare time, I'm also a railroad buff

You're a cacher, and you've got spare time? How does that work?

[+68gypsy]

I have an area in mind to place a cache and the only "reasonable" way to it would be to park on the north side of railroad tracks where parking is in abundance, walking across the tracks and another 1/4 mile south.

Does this constitute a dangerous cache? If so, I will surly find another place.

Thanks for the imput.

68gypsy

[+cache_test_dummies]

If so, I will surly find another place.

Hey! No reason to get mad about it!

 

I have an area in mind to place a cache and the only "reasonable" way to it would be to park on the north side of railroad tracks where parking is in abundance, walking across the tracks and another 1/4 mile south.

Does this constitute a dangerous cache?

It's not about the danger - it's about legal access. Is the crossing point from the parking area to the cache a public right of way?

[+BlueDeuce]

...

Edited August 10, 2007 by BlueDeuce