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How do you stop the PAF network?


kailster

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I really can't see how that is the case. For the life of me, I can't imagine how I would be affected by the fact that another cacher used a PAF. It certainly doesn't change my accomplishment in any way.

It affects you as much as when a future finder claims a find on a cache that you found, that they never actually found.

 

(Not one bit.)

 

They went to the cache. They signed a log. They may have exchanged stuff. Since they signed the log at the cache's intended hiding spot, then they can put a "found it" log online.

 

No, it does not affect me if a future finder claims a find on a cache that I have found, that they didn't "find" but were at the actual cache and signed the log. Their actions do not take away the sense of accomplishment, do not take away from the fact that I gained enjoyment from the process of caching, and certainly do not take away the enjoyment of being at a neat place (assuming the cache was a worthy placement).

 

You see, I don't measure my worth in relation to others. I certainly do not rely on others' play/conduct in this activity to validate my geocaching experience.

 

It is my enjoyment, my past-time - and I will not allow myself anxiety in someone else's way of playing if they are not destroying the environment or destroying the credibility of geocaching.

 

Let 'em PAF, if they are PAFers. We all know who they are, and if some of us who know choose to "judge" their accomplishments in that light, so be it.

 

Sheesh.

Edited by Jeep_Dog
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I really don't see the need for the angst. Hunting for a cache is a personal challenge and if some people call someone else all they are doing is cheating themselves out of the joy of finding the cache on their own. They aren't depriving anyone else of anything.

 

Personally, I would rather log a DNF in the hopes of coming back later and finding it myself. To me that's the whole point, not wracking up found numbers, but I suppose other people feel differently about the game.

 

I'd say keep placing your caches as you are and know that more cachers than not get some pleasure out of the hunt whether they actually find them or not. Don't worry about the rest.

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I don't see this as a problem.

 

Of course, I don't have any friends. <_<

 

I'd be concerned that with the growing use of PAF's, the cache hiders will try to make their cache hides more and more difficult so as to puzzle the PAF "groups".

 

We hunt on our own too and go caching to find things, not to be outwitted. I even like LPC's (not for the parking lot, but to see the area around where the LCP is located. There can be stores I didn't know of, historic sites and markers, etc.)

 

But that's JMHO of course.

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I don't see this as a problem.

 

Of course, I don't have any friends. <_<

I'd be concerned that with the growing use of PAF's, the cache hiders will try to make their cache hides more and more difficult so as to puzzle the PAF "groups". ...
I think that this would only make it more likely for PAF networks to continue to develop.
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I don't see this as a problem.

 

Of course, I don't have any friends. <_<

I'd be concerned that with the growing use of PAF's, the cache hiders will try to make their cache hides more and more difficult so as to puzzle the PAF "groups". ...
I think that this would only make it more likely for PAF networks to continue to develop.

I agree. Last Sunday we arrived on the scene of a very tricky cache. Three cachers were already there and had been searching. One of them had his laptop open on the curb, connected to GC.com with WiFi, so he could read all the Past Logs. Once he saw a name for which another cachers had the phone number, the call was made. thumbsup.gif

 

I would have never figured out that devious, questionable :D, hide, or been able to physically retrieve it, without all the collaboration. B) And, I would have probably never returned to that particular location :D to attempt to "clear" that DNF. <_<

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...Certianly welcome any suggestions/debate.

 

You can't stop the PAF network. If you place a cache though you can keep in mind that the PAF network exists. There is no way to 'PAF' your way out of swimming through a shark infested pool, or 3 mile hike.

 

The PAF is best at making short work of difficult hides and solving puzzles, or shortcutting multi caches. For that you can do nothing but not place those kinds of caches while giving all the PAF logs the stinky eye.

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I generally don't have a problem with the PAF lifeline, if it is used as a lifeline in those situations where the cache is clobbering you. There has been more than once where I wish I'd had one. What I take issue with is cachers who abuse the PAF. I've seen logs by people that have 'found' 20 or 30 in a day where most of the logs they've posted said they had to '...make a call to be sure'. I've even heard other cachers say they were on the phone as they arrived at the cache site! They don't even bother to look first. It's similar to the logs I've seen from out of town (or newbie) cachers who hooks up with a seasoned local so the local can 'take them to all the good caches' that the local has already found.

 

As frustrating as it can be, if that's the way they want to play, there's really not a lot that can be done about it. Let them get their easy smiley and move on. Be happy knowing you got your smilies without using a lifeline.

 

- Kewaneh

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<snip>

 

It's similar to the logs I've seen from out of town (or newbie) cachers who hooks up with a seasoned local so the local can 'take them to all the good caches' that the local has already found.

 

<snip>

 

- Kewaneh

 

That's something totally different. When I go caching out of my 'local territory', I try to hook up with someone who lives there, and who knows where the good caches are. It doesn't automatically mean that they show me where the cache is! In fact, one of my most memorable finds was in Lincoln... I was ten feet up a tree when the cache was in a tunnel underground... and all my friend would tell me (AFTER I climbed) was that it wasn't in the tree!

 

Hey, if I'm going to use gas and go out of town, I don't want to end i[ hitting a series of bad caches. I like guides, but not spoilers. <_<

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PAFs tend to be small and discreet--

 

I know of a local list you can sign up for. I'm not suggesting these folks use it for cheating and it's been my impression that they are usually calling the cache owner, but the list is out there in plain sight for anyone who wants it.

 

 

 

edit: site/sight

Edited by BlueDeuce
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I really don't see the need for the angst. Hunting for a cache is a personal challenge and if some people call someone else all they are doing is cheating themselves out of the joy of finding the cache on their own. They aren't depriving anyone else of anything. ....

 

The cache owner had an experience in mind for the person to enjoy. If the finder short circuits all that then they rob themselves of the experience and they also rob the owner of the satisfaction of a job well done.

 

I'll compare it to going into a resteraunt and slapping ketchup on everything then telling the chef all about it in your "food log".

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If the finder short circuits all that then they rob themselves of the experience ...

Or not. The finder isn't necessarily robbing themselves of anything - they might have been interested in a having a completely different experience than what the cache owner had in mind.

 

and they also rob the owner of the satisfaction of a job well done.

Yes. There is this possibility.

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Well . . . here's another persepective . . .

 

I DNF'd a cache this afternoon after spending more than half an hour looking. I don't know what kind of experience that cache owner wants to have, but apparently they enjoy frustrating cachers. From looking at the Past Logs, there have only been DNFs, or "Found it" logs where people say something like, "Finally. Third trip here. Thanks for the lifeline."

 

Gee, I place my caches so people can find them, and maybe even enjoy the location I have brought them to. :laughing: I don't understand wanting to frustrate cachers by making the cache so difficult they can't find it without a lifeline call . . . :P

 

If people were having that much trouble finding a cache of mine, I would update the coordinates and leave a better hint than "Look down." :laughing:

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It's up to each person how they want to play the game. I could care less if people call friends for help on one of my caches unless it's a new puzzle cache. I ask people on the cache page not to divulge the solution until my new puzzle caches until it has been found by all the true puzzle solvers. After that I don't care.

 

I don't like getting DNF logs on my caches because it always makes me wonder if the cache is missing. However, I do ignore DNFs from the prolific DNFers. So if someone looks for my cache for a long time and then phones a friend for help, it actually helps me. They find my cache confirming that it's still there in good health. :P

Edited by TrailGators
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as a cache owner the only satisfaction i get is from people actually finding the cache. i had a route in mind for them but i'm not the only person with a brain so if they find a different one, whether that is better or worse, then so be it.

 

far better for the cache to be found than not. and on a personal matter, i'm hopeless at puzzles. and by that i mean completely and utterly useless. without help i would never find them, so PAF or not find..... which gives the owner more satisfaction?

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From all the above, it is apparent that there are many different flavors/styles of caches. Me - I am from the pound your head against a brick wall, spend 10s of hours at GZ and then kick yourself for not finishing sooner once the cache is found flavor/style. I know many (probably most) cachers are not of this variety -- but it is what I enjoy. Others in my area also share this approach. I understand and appreciate other styles (ie the destination cachers, the experience cachers, the numbers cachers, etc) and do often participate in those caches. But, at the end of the day, what I am looking for is for cachers of a different flavor to acknowledge this difference and respect the style of the cache. Many cachers say that they don't like parking lot caches and as a result don't do those caches. Why is it so hard to accept this philosophy on other cache flavors?

 

I want my cache finders to enjoy the extreme difficulty of the cache. It is the style I enjoy, and I want to share that with others. One of the major detractors of this style is the PAF network. I would like to minimize the effectiveness of the PAF network in finding my caches. Some creative solutions have been provided in this thread that I will be implementing (much thanks!). Any other ideas out there that are used?

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From all the above, it is apparent that there are many different flavors/styles of caches. Me - I am from the pound your head against a brick wall, spend 10s of hours at GZ and then kick yourself for not finishing sooner once the cache is found flavor/style. I know many (probably most) cachers are not of this variety -- but it is what I enjoy. Others in my area also share this approach. I understand and appreciate other styles (ie the destination cachers, the experience cachers, the numbers cachers, etc) and do often participate in those caches. But, at the end of the day, what I am looking for is for cachers of a different flavor to acknowledge this difference and respect the style of the cache. Many cachers say that they don't like parking lot caches and as a result don't do those caches. Why is it so hard to accept this philosophy on other cache flavors?

 

I want my cache finders to enjoy the extreme difficulty of the cache. It is the style I enjoy, and I want to share that with others. One of the major detractors of this style is the PAF network. I would like to minimize the effectiveness of the PAF network in finding my caches. Some creative solutions have been provided in this thread that I will be implementing (much thanks!). Any other ideas out there that are used?

Link to comment

From all the above, it is apparent that there are many different flavors/styles of caches. Me - I am from the pound your head against a brick wall, spend 10s of hours at GZ and then kick yourself for not finishing sooner once the cache is found flavor/style. I know many (probably most) cachers are not of this variety -- but it is what I enjoy. Others in my area also share this approach. I understand and appreciate other styles (ie the destination cachers, the experience cachers, the numbers cachers, etc) and do often participate in those caches. But, at the end of the day, what I am looking for is for cachers of a different flavor to acknowledge this difference and respect the style of the cache. Many cachers say that they don't like parking lot caches and as a result don't do those caches. Why is it so hard to accept this philosophy on other cache flavors?

 

I want my cache finders to enjoy the extreme difficulty of the cache. It is the style I enjoy, and I want to share that with others. One of the major detractors of this style is the PAF network. I would like to minimize the effectiveness of the PAF network in finding my caches. Some creative solutions have been provided in this thread that I will be implementing (much thanks!). Any other ideas out there that are used?

Link to comment

From all the above, it is apparent that there are many different flavors/styles of caches. Me - I am from the pound your head against a brick wall, spend 10s of hours at GZ and then kick yourself for not finishing sooner once the cache is found flavor/style. I know many (probably most) cachers are not of this variety -- but it is what I enjoy. Others in my area also share this approach. I understand and appreciate other styles (ie the destination cachers, the experience cachers, the numbers cachers, etc) and do often participate in those caches. But, at the end of the day, what I am looking for is for cachers of a different flavor to acknowledge this difference and respect the style of the cache. Many cachers say that they don't like parking lot caches and as a result don't do those caches. Why is it so hard to accept this philosophy on other cache flavors?

 

I want my cache finders to enjoy the extreme difficulty of the cache. It is the style I enjoy, and I want to share that with others. One of the major detractors of this style is the PAF network. I would like to minimize the effectiveness of the PAF network in finding my caches. Some creative solutions have been provided in this thread that I will be implementing (much thanks!). Any other ideas out there that are used?

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... I could care less if people call friends for help on one of my caches unless it's a new puzzle cache. ...

Most caches, most folks don't care. Some caches most folks do care. You also care in some situations.

 

If I just put a box out to find. I don't care. For others...yes I do, and I'll archive the cache if it's not working like I planned.

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From all the above, it is apparent that there are many different flavors/styles of caches. Me - I am from the pound your head against a brick wall, spend 10s of hours at GZ and then kick yourself for not finishing sooner once the cache is found flavor/style. I know many (probably most) cachers are not of this variety -- but it is what I enjoy. Others in my area also share this approach. I understand and appreciate other styles (ie the destination cachers, the experience cachers, the numbers cachers, etc) and do often participate in those caches. But, at the end of the day, what I am looking for is for cachers of a different flavor to acknowledge this difference and respect the style of the cache. Many cachers say that they don't like parking lot caches and as a result don't do those caches. Why is it so hard to accept this philosophy on other cache flavors?

 

I want my cache finders to enjoy the extreme difficulty of the cache. It is the style I enjoy, and I want to share that with others. One of the major detractors of this style is the PAF network. I would like to minimize the effectiveness of the PAF network in finding my caches. Some creative solutions have been provided in this thread that I will be implementing (much thanks!). Any other ideas out there that are used?

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From all the above, it is apparent that there are many different flavors/styles of caches. Me - I am from the pound your head against a brick wall, spend 10s of hours at GZ and then kick yourself for not finishing sooner once the cache is found flavor/style. I know many (probably most) cachers are not of this variety -- but it is what I enjoy. Others in my area also share this approach. I understand and appreciate other styles (ie the destination cachers, the experience cachers, the numbers cachers, etc) and do often participate in those caches. But, at the end of the day, what I am looking for is for cachers of a different flavor to acknowledge this difference and respect the style of the cache. Many cachers say that they don't like parking lot caches and as a result don't do those caches. Why is it so hard to accept this philosophy on other cache flavors?

 

I want my cache finders to enjoy the extreme difficulty of the cache. It is the style I enjoy, and I want to share that with others. One of the major detractors of this style is the PAF network. I would like to minimize the effectiveness of the PAF network in finding my caches. Some creative solutions have been provided in this thread that I will be implementing (much thanks!). Any other ideas out there that are used?

 

You have 5 posts with the same thing. Only hit the "Add Reply" button once regardless of what error your browser says. The error is always wrong and the first post always gets posted. :cry:
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I want my cache finders to enjoy the extreme difficulty of the cache. It is the style I enjoy, and I want to share that with others. One of the major detractors of this style is the PAF network. I would like to minimize the effectiveness of the PAF network in finding my caches. Some creative solutions have been provided in this thread that I will be implementing (much thanks!). Any other ideas out there that are used?

 

You could try something like this cache that we had for a while: "Got change for a cache?". The cache page description encouraged people to hide the cache in a way that was different from the way that they found it, either by modifying the camo, or the container itself, or even by moving the cache. Technically it wasn't a "moving cache", since they had to choose a spot that was within the usual EPE of the posted coords. But it was on a steep hill covered with boulders and mini caves, so there were a zillion potential hiding places all within the acceptable range.

 

If you did something like this, then the only person that a finder could call for help would be the person who found and re-hid it most recently. (And it's likely that that person, as the hider, would be reluctant to just give it away.)

Edited by the hermit crabs
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I know of a local list you can sign up for. I'm not suggesting these folks use it for cheating and it's been my impression that they are usually calling the cache owner, but the list is out there in plain sight for anyone who wants it.

Well, I'd hope it's being used in the way we've called friends and not as some have described where the searcher is at GZ for 2 minutes and then is on the phone.

 

Before anyone jumps up and down and calls me a hypocrite, yes, one person on our team will call a friend a lot sooner than the other. I can recall 2 instances where we've called a friend and one of those was to look up a previous log. It was one of those situations where the last 5 logs simply isn't enough and the best one we did have said, "We used 'Ubercacher's' coordinates to find cache quickly as the listed coordinates were 150 feet off."

 

I should also point out we absolutely don't mind calling the owner. In fact, we have our phone numbers all over the place, even on a cache page or two. If someone needs help on one of our caches, don't hesitate to call as we'll be happy to give a nudge in the right direction. Just don't expect an outright spoiler.

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... I want my cache finders to enjoy the extreme difficulty of the cache. It is the style I enjoy, and I want to share that with others. ...
Are you given more pleasure if someone logs a DNF and never returns or if someone logs a find after a long search ending with a PAF?

For me, it depends on the information the friend gave.

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... I want my cache finders to enjoy the extreme difficulty of the cache. It is the style I enjoy, and I want to share that with others. ...
Are you given more pleasure if someone logs a DNF and never returns or if someone logs a find after a long search ending with a PAF?

For me, it depends on the information the friend gave.

I was asking Kailster that question, but while I have you, could you explain why it depends? Why would you get more enjoyment out of someone not finding your cache?

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... I want my cache finders to enjoy the extreme difficulty of the cache. It is the style I enjoy, and I want to share that with others. ...
Are you given more pleasure if someone logs a DNF and never returns or if someone logs a find after a long search ending with a PAF?
For me, it depends on the information the friend gave.
I was asking Kailster that question, but while I have you, could you explain why it depends? Why would you get more enjoyment out of someone not finding your cache?

I know you were asking someone else, but it had been a couple of days and I wanted to give my opinion on how I felt about the issue. After all, I did preface it with "For me..."

 

The enjoyment comes not from whether the person found the cache or not--really that is irrelevant. It comes from their enjoyment of them rising the challenge of our cache. Folks can have a terrible time finding a cache or a blast on a DNF.

 

Additionally, as you know, I couldn't care less about smilies, so I'm less inclined to get satisfaction from folks finding cache if the only goal was a smilie and they cheated to get there. If they worked for it and used only a nudge from a friend, it's not so bad. If they didn't work a puzzle and were simply told the hiding location and technique, then I wouldn't get any enjoyment or sense of satisfaction what so ever.

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... I want my cache finders to enjoy the extreme difficulty of the cache. It is the style I enjoy, and I want to share that with others. ...
Are you given more pleasure if someone logs a DNF and never returns or if someone logs a find after a long search ending with a PAF?
For me, it depends on the information the friend gave.
I was asking Kailster that question, but while I have you, could you explain why it depends? Why would you get more enjoyment out of someone not finding your cache?

I know you were asking someone else, but it had been a couple of days and I wanted to give my opinion on how I felt about the issue. After all, I did preface it with "For me..."

 

The enjoyment comes not from whether the person found the cache or not--really that is irrelevant. It comes from their enjoyment of them rising the challenge of our cache. Folks can have a terrible time finding a cache or a blast on a DNF.

 

Additionally, as you know, I couldn't care less about smilies, so I'm less inclined to get satisfaction from folks finding cache if the only goal was a smilie and they cheated to get there. If they worked for it and used only a nudge from a friend, it's not so bad. If they didn't work a puzzle and were simply told the hiding location and technique, then I wouldn't get any enjoyment or sense of satisfaction what so ever.

If they worked hard for the cache but didn't enjoy the DNF would it give you more enjoyment than if they worked hard at it, used a PAF, and enjoyed their find?
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... I want my cache finders to enjoy the extreme difficulty of the cache. It is the style I enjoy, and I want to share that with others. ...
Are you given more pleasure if someone logs a DNF and never returns or if someone logs a find after a long search ending with a PAF?
For me, it depends on the information the friend gave.
I was asking Kailster that question, but while I have you, could you explain why it depends? Why would you get more enjoyment out of someone not finding your cache?
I know you were asking someone else, but it had been a couple of days and I wanted to give my opinion on how I felt about the issue. After all, I did preface it with "For me..."

 

The enjoyment comes not from whether the person found the cache or not--really that is irrelevant. It comes from their enjoyment of them rising the challenge of our cache. Folks can have a terrible time finding a cache or a blast on a DNF.

 

Additionally, as you know, I couldn't care less about smilies, so I'm less inclined to get satisfaction from folks finding cache if the only goal was a smilie and they cheated to get there. If they worked for it and used only a nudge from a friend, it's not so bad. If they didn't work a puzzle and were simply told the hiding location and technique, then I wouldn't get any enjoyment or sense of satisfaction what so ever.

If they worked hard for the cache but didn't enjoy the DNF would it give you more enjoyment than if they worked hard at it, used a PAF, and enjoyed their find?

It would depend on whether I had been answering piddly forum questions that try to nail down the most finite answers to every single little scenario possible--especially those where the answer can easily be gleaned from previous answers given.

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... I want my cache finders to enjoy the extreme difficulty of the cache. It is the style I enjoy, and I want to share that with others. ...
Are you given more pleasure if someone logs a DNF and never returns or if someone logs a find after a long search ending with a PAF?
For me, it depends on the information the friend gave.
I was asking Kailster that question, but while I have you, could you explain why it depends? Why would you get more enjoyment out of someone not finding your cache?
I know you were asking someone else, but it had been a couple of days and I wanted to give my opinion on how I felt about the issue. After all, I did preface it with "For me..."

 

The enjoyment comes not from whether the person found the cache or not--really that is irrelevant. It comes from their enjoyment of them rising the challenge of our cache. Folks can have a terrible time finding a cache or a blast on a DNF.

 

Additionally, as you know, I couldn't care less about smilies, so I'm less inclined to get satisfaction from folks finding cache if the only goal was a smilie and they cheated to get there. If they worked for it and used only a nudge from a friend, it's not so bad. If they didn't work a puzzle and were simply told the hiding location and technique, then I wouldn't get any enjoyment or sense of satisfaction what so ever.

If they worked hard for the cache but didn't enjoy the DNF would it give you more enjoyment than if they worked hard at it, used a PAF, and enjoyed their find?

It would depend on whether I had been answering piddly forum questions that try to nail down the most finite answers to every single little scenario possible--especially those where the answer can easily be gleaned from previous answers given.

Nailing down people's positions is how understanding of those positions happens. Without understanding of people's positions, it is impossible for meaningful discussion to happen. I'm sorry that you choose not to foster understanding of your own positions. Edited by sbell111
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I'm sorry that you choose not to foster understanding of your own positions.

What is there to not understand? I've made my position clear. Just because you want to muddy the issue with questions with vague details isn't my problem. For instance, you asked about PAF and did not indicate whether the help provided was simply a tiny nudge or an outright spoiler. You can't answer such a broad question with a finite answer. Additionally, you asked about a "find." Where you asking about the experience of finding the cache or being able to claim a smilie? Some folks enjoy only being able to log a smilie regardless of the experience actually finding the cache.

 

Personally, I saw the question as an attempt to back me into a corner. Maybe that was your intention or maybe it wasn't.

 

Perhaps if you reword your question in more finite terms you can glean the answer from previous posts.

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Oy.

I'm sorry that you choose not to foster understanding of your own positions.
What is there to not understand?
Well, those things that I asked questions about, I guess.
I've made my position clear. Just because you want to muddy the issue with questions with vague details isn't my problem. For instance, you asked about PAF and did not indicate whether the help provided was simply a tiny nudge or an outright spoiler. You can't answer such a broad question with a finite answer.
This thread is about PAF networks. The cache owner will likely not know how big of a nudge the finder received. Therefore, this information is not important, in my opinion. The finder received PAF assistance, or he didn't.
Additionally, you asked about a "find." Where you asking about the experience of finding the cache or being able to claim a smilie?
I'm defining 'find' as 'a cache seeker signed the logbook and is, therefore, eligible to log a 'find' on-line and get a smiley'. Your position appears to be that you would rather people don't enjoy your cache after a long fruitless search ending with a DNF than getting some enjoyment from it because after the fruitlesws search, they utilized a PAF and signed the logbook.
Some folks enjoy only being able to log a smilie regardless of the experience actually finding the cache.
That's an interesting theory, but not really on poi8nt to this thread or my question to you.
Personally, I saw the question as an attempt to back me into a corner. Maybe that was your intention or maybe it wasn't.
The question was an attempt to understand your position. Any corners are of your own making.
Perhaps if you reword your question in more finite terms you can glean the answer from previous posts.
whatever. Edited by sbell111
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whatever.

Kind of what I figured. You couldn't get me to vote PAFs, in general, up or down, and thus failed at your attempt to paint me into a corner, so you dismiss the fact you could have answered the question from what I've already said. Kind of points towards the "piddly questions" I alluded to earlier.

 

However...

This thread is about PAF networks. The cache owner will likely not know how big of a nudge the finder received. Therefore, this information is not important, in my opinion. The finder received PAF assistance, or he didn't.
Again, PAF networks are a sub-set of community help. The quality of help from the community is just as important in a PAF network. PAF networks neither operate in a vacuum nor are they a discrete entity to themselves. Just like folks coming to the forums to ask a question about a cache there is decorum that is followed. If it didn't matter the what type of help one received then asking for the solution for a puzzle here on the forums wouldn't be considered bad form. The information received is important.

 

Also, again, caching do not happen in a vacuum. The relationship between the finder and the hider is not the only interaction. There is a huge community linked in myriad of ways and what happens between one individual and another does have an impact on others to some smaller or greater extent.

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whatever.

Kind of what I figured. You couldn't get me to vote PAFs, in general, up or down, and thus failed at your attempt to paint me into a corner, so you dismiss the fact you could have answered the question from what I've already said. Kind of points towards the "piddly questions" I alluded to earlier.

 

However...

This thread is about PAF networks. The cache owner will likely not know how big of a nudge the finder received. Therefore, this information is not important, in my opinion. The finder received PAF assistance, or he didn't.
Again, PAF networks are a sub-set of community help. The quality of help from the community is just as important in a PAF network. PAF networks neither operate in a vacuum nor are they a discrete entity to themselves. Just like folks coming to the forums to ask a question about a cache there is decorum that is followed. If it didn't matter the what type of help one received then asking for the solution for a puzzle here on the forums wouldn't be considered bad form. The information received is important.

 

Also, again, caching do not happen in a vacuum. The relationship between the finder and the hider is not the only interaction. There is a huge community linked in myriad of ways and what happens between one individual and another does have an impact on others to some smaller or greater extent.

Fine.

 

Which of the following logs on a cache that you owned would please you more?

 

B) Jimbo and I looked for this one forever and just couldn't find it. We were pretty sick of looking and were about to leave when Jimbo remembered that he had SlowMo's phone number in his cel. He called him up and not long after we were able to sign the log.

 

-or-

 

:D Jimbo and I looked for this one forever and just couldn't find it. We were pretty sick of looking so we left to find something fun to do.

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Which of the following logs on a cache that you owned would please you more?

Neither would please me. It would be quite obvious they didn't enjoy my cache in either instance. Pretty much the only difference is in one scenario they got to log a smilie and the other they didn't.

 

If I absolutely had to pick, the one that would displease the least is the one where they choose to walk away from not having fun.

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I don't try to stop it. Sometimes I use it. Sometimes I participate in it. Many of the cacher sin my area do. You're welcome to label me a cheater if you like, or tell me that I spoil the fun of it... but after the sixth try at the same cache, the 'fun' part has disappeared.

 

The whole point of hiding caches is so that others can find them - I would never get upset if someone called for help on one of my caches - I know that people have. They've called me, they've called others who have found it. It doesn't bother me. I get my fun out of other people logging my caches. I love reading an online log of a successful find... an imaginative DNF log can be fun, too, but a log from a really frustrated cacher who didn't have any fun isn't any fun for /me/ either. By all means, call for help!

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Caching is also a social activity. You interact with many others to have some fun. So there is a grapevine and there always will be. It's actually fun to have friends that you can call for help, when you really need it. Around here when people use a lifeline they mention it in their log. They aren't trying to deceive anybody or cheat. They are just crying "Uncle!" Why should they have to go home; email the owner and then go back again? That is a waste of time. Remember that it's just a game. :D

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Caching is also a social activity. You interact with many others to have some fun. So there is a grapevine and there always will be. It's actually fun to have friends that you can call for help, when you really need it. Around here when people use a lifeline they mention it in their log. They aren't trying to deceive anybody or cheat. They are just crying "Uncle!" Why should they have to go home; email the owner and then go back again? That is a waste of time. Remember that it's just a game. :D

 

And it's usually those insanely difficult micros that I see PTO logs.

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I don't try to stop it. Sometimes I use it. Sometimes I participate in it. Many of the cachers in my area do. You're welcome to label me a cheater if you like, or tell me that I spoil the fun of it... but after the sixth try at the same cache, the 'fun' part has disappeared.

 

The whole point of hiding caches is so that others can find them - I would never get upset if someone called for help on one of my caches - I know that people have. They've called me, they've called others who have found it. It doesn't bother me. I get my fun out of other people logging my caches. I love reading an online log of a successful find... an imaginative DNF log can be fun, too, but a log from a really frustrated cacher who didn't have any fun isn't any fun for /me/ either. By all means, call for help!

Yup, my most recent DNF log included all my frustration . . .

Well, for a cache that is supposed to be a Difficulty 1.5, it sure seems to cause a lot of "difficulty" for people, including myself. I read the cache description before walking over from my car, which I parked on the street. I knew the cache wasn't in the bushes, according to the description, but that is where my GZ was. After wandering around and looking everywhere, including inside some openings and under the nearby lamp post skirt , I gave up and walked over to another nearby cache. After I found that one, I went to my car and read the Past Logs. Armed with different coords, and a couple of suggestions, I walked back and searched again, but had no luck. If I return, maybe I'll have to bring a rake.

:D

 

If I received a log like that for one of my caches, I would be very sad . . . B) I guess I should apologize to the cache owner . . . maybe then they will email me a hint so I will find the cache if I am ever in that area again.

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I have emailed for hints after 3 or 4 searches - but only to the owner.
It would really have to be a special cache to make me go back 3-4 times and not ask for help. We do have some hiders out here that are very special and I will suffer through those. I thin my record is going back 3 times but that only happened once. It really depends on the cache as to how much torture I'll go through. Most of the time, when I have called a friend for help; I'll find out the the coords were way off. B) Then I'm really glad that I called my friend. :D
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I don't try to stop it. Sometimes I use it. Sometimes I participate in it. Many of the cachers in my area do. You're welcome to label me a cheater if you like, or tell me that I spoil the fun of it... but after the sixth try at the same cache, the 'fun' part has disappeared.

 

The whole point of hiding caches is so that others can find them - I would never get upset if someone called for help on one of my caches - I know that people have. They've called me, they've called others who have found it. It doesn't bother me. I get my fun out of other people logging my caches. I love reading an online log of a successful find... an imaginative DNF log can be fun, too, but a log from a really frustrated cacher who didn't have any fun isn't any fun for /me/ either. By all means, call for help!

Yup, my most recent DNF log included all my frustration . . .

Well, for a cache that is supposed to be a Difficulty 1.5, it sure seems to cause a lot of "difficulty" for people, including myself. I read the cache description before walking over from my car, which I parked on the street. I knew the cache wasn't in the bushes, according to the description, but that is where my GZ was. After wandering around and looking everywhere, including inside some openings and under the nearby lamp post skirt , I gave up and walked over to another nearby cache. After I found that one, I went to my car and read the Past Logs. Armed with different coords, and a couple of suggestions, I walked back and searched again, but had no luck. If I return, maybe I'll have to bring a rake.

B)

 

If I received a log like that for one of my caches, I would be very sad . . . :D I guess I should apologize to the cache owner . . . maybe then they will email me a hint so I will find the cache if I am ever in that area again.

 

Ya know some caches are supposed to be difficult. If the D/T rating needs to be adjusted then say so. I'm not going to walk around complaining that a cache owner made it hard and then didn't give me a way to make it easier.

 

Cripes, it's just like people complaining that other cachers post routine logs that push logs with hints in them out of top five. Since when am I obligated to make it easy for whoever demands it?

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Ya know some caches are supposed to be difficult. If the D/T rating needs to be adjusted then say so. I'm not going to walk around complaining that a cache owner made it hard and then didn't give me a way to make it easier.

 

Cripes, it's just like people complaining that other cachers post routine logs that push logs with hints in them out of top five. Since when am I obligated to make it easy for whoever demands it?

I agree. If the difficulty is 3 or more, it is supposed to be challenging to find. People really shouldn't complain if they choose to take that challenge. If they are complaining and not having fun then they should use the filter feature on PQs to easily filter those caches out. :D
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The OP wanted the PAF network stopped. I think if people want to buddy up with the cache owner that's certainly one way to play it, if all parties are in agreement.

 

You can ask for assistance on my caches but I'll probably look to see that you are a newbie just learning the game. And if you are a caching buddy I would have no trouble reading the hint for you if you were out in the field with no internet access, but that's it.

 

I don't think we need to gear this game to give people every opportunity to find the cache unless that's what the owner wants. And I don't think we need to start illustrating how terrible caching is when an owner doesn't offer every clue.

 

And I don't think gps accuracy should be within millimeters.

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The OP wanted the PAF network stopped. I think if people want to buddy up with the cache owner that's certainly one way to play it, if all parties are in agreement.

 

You can ask for assistance on my caches but I'll probably look to see that you are a newbie just learning the game. And if you are a caching buddy I would have no trouble reading the hint for you if you were out in the field with no internet access, but that's it.

 

I don't think we need to gear this game to give people every opportunity to find the cache unless that's what the owner wants. And I don't think we need to start illustrating how terrible caching is when an owner doesn't offer every clue.

 

And I don't think gps accuracy should be within millimeters.

To me it's the same thing as buying a crossword puzzle book and looking in the back when you get stuck. Some people look right away and some people refuse to look. Then there's everyone else that are in-between the two extemes. When it comes right down to it, it's really up to them how they are going to play. If they really want to find out they will. Some people are really good at that. I still think that we should worry about about we play the game and not worry about everyone else plays. It's wasted energy.
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