Keeping "Destroyed" Benchmarks? (how-to)

[wwflover13]

I'm not too familiar with the whole benchmarking process, but I understand some of it. I'm really curious as to how you could take a "destroyed" benchmark. I mean, how could someone take something that's actually destroyed? This just really stumps me. Basically, I'm wondering how someone would go about taking a destroyed benchmark?

[+m&h]

When you say "take," do you mean "log," or "pick up and abscond with"? If the latter, the short answer is that you can't. Now for something a little longer:

 

If a mark's whole setting, such as a bridge abutment, has been removed, the destruction is obvious and the mark has vanished. But say instead that the abutment has begun to crumble around the setting of a disk, and the disk itself has worked loose, maybe heaved all the way out of its setting. So it exists, and in that sense is not "destroyed," but its value as a precise mark of an exact point on the earth's surface is now zero. That is the kind of destroyed mark that appears to be available for the taking. HOWEVER, it remains the property of the NGS, and they don't want you to just walk off with it, even if it's lying on its side several feet from where it was set. If you notify Deb Brown of its condition, and document it with photos, she may well offer to let you have the disk. That is not taking it, but rather accepting it as a gift.

[+m&h]

P.S. Take a look at mloser's great photos in the thread "what does the disk look like beneath its setting?"

[mloser]

Yes, I was given permission to keep it! LOL

 

However, since I got that disk it seems the NGS may not really be able to give them away, or at least may be only one part of the permission needed to obtain them. In most cases they were set by the USGS and, I assume, they remain the property of the USGS, so permission from your local USGS office should also be obtained before snagging one. In my area Ernmark reports that the USGS wants the disks back for their "display wall". Go figure.

 

So far I haven't convinced Deb to destroy any marks on bridges that have been replaced (I haven't tried to be honest)--the rules are pretty strict: No disk, no "destroyed" status. In most cases you can be 100 percent sure that the bridge is totally new but without evidence of the actual disk all you can submit is a "not found" and the reason why. I have one case where I stopped to give a cursory glance at the wingwall of what I KNEW was a new bridge and was shocked to discover that they had used the old bridge structure and just put new headwalls up. The disk was exactly where described.

 

I DO have one instance where I got a mark declared destroyed without having the disk in hand. KW0824 was in a wind sock at our local airport, which had been closed for 20+ years. When the area was redeveloped to put a road in the windsock base was removed. I verified this with the construction manager, who said he removed the disk and gave it to the property owner (a local company) who said they would send it back (my guess is that it became a souvenir instead). I emailed Deb with all the information I knew and was able to convince her that the mark was indeed gone, WITHOUT ever showing a mark. This sort of instance would be rare though.

[wwflover13]

Alright, so I would contact Deb Brown about destroyed NGS benchmarks. Is there not a person in the USGS to contact if the destroyed benchmark is one of theirs? There's also North Carolina G.S. and I've also seen US Coast Guard benchmarks..

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Alright, so I would contact Deb Brown about destroyed NGS benchmarks. Is there not a person in the USGS to contact if the destroyed benchmark is one of theirs? There's also North Carolina G.S. and I've also seen US Coast Guard benchmarks..

 

I have a question for you. Since you have only logged '3' marks with GC.com it might be hard for you to determine what exactly is a "Destroyed" mark. Are you sure that these marks are in fact destroyed? Also, if the disk is in fact destroyed, one agency might consider it destroyed while another might consider it still usable.

 

We do not declare marks "Destroyed" very often, due to the fact that we are not professionals and the amateurs that are playing this game very often have found the wrong disk and do not even see the correct disk that is close by.

 

You could consider going to your local county surveyor's office and talk to him, he is the professional. It has come to our attention that they declare marks destroyed due to construction in their area and you might be able to get one of those without worrying if you might get in trouble by just up and taking a benchmark without going through all of the channels.

 

Or you could just go to Bernsten International and order yourself your very own personal benchmark. Now, that would be too cool!

 

Just a word of caution...until you find more marks and get a feel for this new sport, (newbies make many mistakes...we did) it would not be such a wise thing to try to get a mark destroyed just to have that mark in your possession.

 

Shirley~

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

...

 

So far I haven't convinced Deb to destroy any marks on bridges that have been replaced (I haven't tried to be honest)--the rules are pretty strict: No disk, no "destroyed" status. In most cases you can be 100 percent sure that the bridge is totally new but without evidence of the actual disk all you can submit is a "not found" and the reason why. I have one case where I stopped to give a cursory glance at the wingwall of what I KNEW was a new bridge and was shocked to discover that they had used the old bridge structure and just put new headwalls up. The disk was exactly where described.

 

...

I had a bunch of marks declared destroyed in New York City that were on structures which had been razed or replaced (like the Third Avenue Bridge). I submitted pictures of the place where the structure was located and in some cases web sites or news articles saying "such-and-such bridge was replaced in 1959 ..." that got the item destroyed. None of my submissions for destroyed marks were rejected.

 

In some other cases it was the building itself (e.g. an intersection station) that was the station, those were also marked destroyed. I think they will still take destroyed logs for intersection stations (but not recoveries) so as to clean up the data base a little.

[wwflover13]

I have a question for you. Since you have only logged '3' marks with GC.com it might be hard for you to determine what exactly is a "Destroyed" mark. Are you sure that these marks are in fact destroyed? Also, if the disk is in fact destroyed, one agency might consider it destroyed while another might consider it still usable.

....

Just a word of caution...until you find more marks and get a feel for this new sport, (newbies make many mistakes...we did) it would not be such a wise thing to try to get a mark destroyed just to have that mark in your possession.

 

Yes, I've only logged three benchmarks on GC.com - I'm not claiming to be incredibly knowledgeable on this subject. I cannot express enough that I am not planning on getting a mark destroyed just so that I can have one. I really wan't referring to an actual specific benchmark, just gathering information for future reference. If there comes a time where I do find a mark that I would consider destroyed, I'd make sure the agency that owns it agrees with me, before going back to retreive the mark. But for me to confirm the "destroyed" status, I would have to know the contact information of the benchmark-owning agencies - that's what I need help with.

[Z15]

If its in the NGS database, contact them (see NGS site for info on what to do) with proof. Photos of the actual mark proving its destroyed are required before they will log it as such. As for other agencies, most of them do not have a person who you can contact or if they do, they do not advertise it. They often don't really care about it and will worry about it if they ever need to use the mark again.

Edited August 6, 2007 by Z15

[+Harry Dolphin]

Hmm... I'll agree with Papa Bear NYC. It is very rare, but it is possible to get disk stations declared destroyed without the disk. For example: KV0143. The proper historic documentation helps. "The first Hackensack High School on First and High Streets was built in 1897. This site is now occupied by a public housing project (Central and First Streets). "

 

On the other hand, when the Home Depot of Westfall, Pa was built right over LY2601, "Well, it might still be there somewhere." Understandable discretion demanding certainty. The only way to go.

[+BuckBrooke]

I've run across 4 or 5 New Mexico Highway Commission disks whose monuments had tumbled down from eroded highway cuts. I took photos and contacted Deb to have it destroyed on the NGS end of things, and contacted the New Mexico Highway Department for their end. I actually got a response, and approval, from the head of the surveying section of the NMHD, which was unexpected.

[Z15]

Ever notice the data sheets never say the mark is destroyed?

 

They say, "The mark was reported destroyed"

[WVski]

Ever notice the data sheets never say the mark is destroyed?

 

They say, "The mark was reported destroyed"

 

I have actually found a BM that the NGS marked as "Reported destroyed" When in reality, the boulder that it was set in had been turned over by a dozer when they logged the area. You could tell the boulder had been rolled too, but for some reason the datasheet said destroyed. Once they logged the area, they came back in to clean up and i happened to be atv riding in the area and asked a dozer operater to try and roll the boulder back over. I explained to him what i was looking for and he was kinda interested. So he rolled it over for me and sure enough, there it was. So things arent always what they seem.........

[+Ernmark]

..in this case, the "destroyed" status (by the NGS) is correct, as the disk was moved out of its surveyed position & therefore would be of no value to a surveyor.

[Bill93]

For a surveyor, what is "Found good", "Found poor", or "Destroyed" is the precise position, not the object that is or was used as the marker of the position.

 

On the geocaching site, most people will only be concerned about the object, but people who understand the surveyors point of view will usually take not of both the object and the position.

[+cowpill]

I changed one of my marks from destroyed to not found, just for the fact I couldn't find the darn thing. There was recent construction so I assumed but then I saw a mark recovered blow 6 inches of asphalt and changed my "find" The other mark I thought was destroyed but I later found it in the base civil engineers office to be replaced. Prairy dogs built a nest under it and it sunk.

[+PFF]

Bill93 makes a good point about the definition of "destroyed", as it applies to our hobby. The term does not mean the disk is gone. It does not mean the referenced building/rock/bridge is gone.

 

The disk may exist in a "destroyed" state, indicating that it no longer serves its intended purpose--i.e.; marking a precise point or elevation. But if you go to the site, you will see it.

 

Occasionally, a mark will have been marked "destroyed" in error, which is why our group encourages a "Not Found" status report over a "destroyed" submission. It saves being embarrassed, later. (Never mind how we know!)

 

Employing the "destroyed" status sparingly preserves history. Often, a mark is referenced in the descriptions of other marks. During the past three years, we have been able to recover several meridian markers and state boundary markers set in the 1800's by reading the descriptions of nearby benchmarks. If these modern benchmarks disappear from the database, we lose valuable information about the past.

 

-Paul-