An unfortunate risk when logging a DNF

[+Trucker Lee]

Miragee has it right, folks. Log those DNFs! It serves as a reward to the hider for job well done, as well as several indicate the cache may need to be checked.

 

It doesn't reflect badly on you, we all get them. It shows those in your nearby geo-community that you are active, you were out there trying. Take it instead as a personal challenge to overcome the DNF, makes killing it that much more rewarding.

[+nekom]

I've luckily never had that happen, but I have had cache owners politely e-mail me to let me know they are willing to give hints if needed. I think that's the BEST way to do it, but putting a little note like that on a DNF log would probably solve it. I think it's a case of people just trying to be helpful and not realizing some people prefer no help.

[+tozainamboku]

It occured to me that I have be subjected to far more unwanted spoilers from people posting a spoiler in their log or from overhearing a discussion about a cache at an event than from people trying to help because I've posted a DNF. A note on your DNF can go a long way to letting the cache owner or previous finders know not to send you help, but beyond wearing earplugs at an event and never checking logs you can't stop the other more common spoilers.

 

Just this morning I received notification that two cachers had found a cache I DNF'd recently. I watch caches I've DNF'd to see it anyone finds them after I've looked. One posted in his log that they had gotten the 'wrong' coordinate at WP1 for this multi and once they went back and found the 'right' coordinates they found the cache. From this I could deduce that there is a decoy set of coords at the first waypoint. I wasn't too upset about finding this out. But the other cacher posted a detailed description for the decoy so now I knew it was what I had found before. He didn't post a spoiler as to where the real coordinates are except to indicate they were close to the others, but somehow I feel cheated that I explicitly know about the decoy.

 

I also dislike the logs that make a pun out of the hiding spot that gives away the cache location. However, I may have done this a few times myself; it's hard to resist.

[+KBI]

Well, it has happened again.

 

It keeps happening, in fact.

 

I recently spent the better part of an hour searching for a cache that, according to the description and logs, is a very well-hidden, very clever and very entertaining hide.

 

After two visits in one day I remained stumped. I plan to return someday soon and resume the search.

 

Based on past experience I was worried that logging a DNF might generate an unwanted hint, but I am also fully aware of all the reasons why logging a DNF is a good thing, so .... I posted my DNF with the explanation that I would be back to search again – along with a polite-yet-clear request that no one provide any hints or spoilers.

 

The owner responded almost immediately with an email containing a very helpful-sounding – and very UNwanted – hint.

 

Some of the clever-sounding caches I fail to locate make me really really look forward to enjoying the satisfaction of eventually finding them without any help. Those hides compel me to return again and again in anticipation of that rewarding mental gratification. It’s one of my favorite elements of the game.

 

Why, then, does it always seem to be those caches that get spoiled via unrequested help when I post a DNF?

 

I’ve just about decided to stop logging any DNFs, period.

[+TrailGators]

Well, it has happened again.

 

It keeps happening, in fact.

 

I recently spent the better part of an hour searching for a cache that, according to the description and logs, is a very well-hidden, very clever and very entertaining hide.

 

After two visits in one day I remained stumped. I plan to return someday soon and resume the search.

 

Based on past experience I was worried that logging a DNF might generate an unwanted hint, but I am also fully aware of all the reasons why logging a DNF is a good thing, so .... I posted my DNF with the explanation that I would be back to search again – along with a polite-yet-clear request that no one provide any hints or spoilers.

 

The owner responded almost immediately with an email containing a very helpful-sounding – and very UNwanted – hint.

 

Some of the clever-sounding caches I fail to locate make me really really look forward to enjoying the satisfaction of eventually finding them without any help. Those hides compel me to return again and again in anticipation of that rewarding mental gratification. It's one of my favorite elements of the game.

 

Why, then, does it always seem to be those caches that get spoiled via unrequested help when I post a DNF?

 

I've just about decided to stop logging any DNFs, period.

The game is really about the numbers to some people to the point that it doesn't dawn on them that some people enjoy the hunt. Based on what keeps happening to you, I would post your DNF after you have either given up or after you have found the cache. It seems like the only way to keep your anonymity and your quest alive.

[+briansnat]

Easy enough to solve. Just put your fingers your ears and say "Nah, nah, nah I can't hear you" when reading geocaching related e-mails.

[+Proud Soccer Mom]

Well, it has happened again.

 

It keeps happening, in fact.

 

I recently spent the better part of an hour searching for a cache that, according to the description and logs, is a very well-hidden, very clever and very entertaining hide.

 

After two visits in one day I remained stumped. I plan to return someday soon and resume the search.

 

Based on past experience I was worried that logging a DNF might generate an unwanted hint, but I am also fully aware of all the reasons why logging a DNF is a good thing, so .... I posted my DNF with the explanation that I would be back to search again – along with a polite-yet-clear request that no one provide any hints or spoilers.

 

The owner responded almost immediately with an email containing a very helpful-sounding – and very UNwanted – hint.

 

Some of the clever-sounding caches I fail to locate make me really really look forward to enjoying the satisfaction of eventually finding them without any help. Those hides compel me to return again and again in anticipation of that rewarding mental gratification. It’s one of my favorite elements of the game.

 

Why, then, does it always seem to be those caches that get spoiled via unrequested help when I post a DNF?

 

I’ve just about decided to stop logging any DNFs, period.

 

You're not alone, KBI. I actually get these. One time I was just caught in the rain and decided to note that we didn't stay because of the rain. There was nothing in my DNF to say that we couldn't find the cache because it was hidden beyond our searching capabilities and needed a hint. And their hint didn't have anything to do with controlling the weather (which is what would have been really helpful and applicable to my DNF). The CO was just being helpful, like they always are, and I considered it an extension of friendship and community. For this person to send me a hint after a DNF is their way of saying, "I want you to find my cache and enjoy what I've done." The intention means more to me than the hint.

 

If you see a message from the CO after DNFing, don't read it. They'll think they did an awesome job of helping a fellow cacher and you will have preserved your fun, because, if you haven't figured it out yet, you aren't going to get people to change.

[Clan Riffster]

I have yet to experience this rather odd phenomenon. I suppose that the potential looms just over the horizon, as I dutifully log all my DNFs. If the day ever comes when I receive the dreaded hint e-mail, I reckon I'll follow R.P.s footsteps and just consider it as I would any gift, accepting it in the spirit in which it was given. Surely it would impact my expectations, as I do enjoy a good hunt, but I wouldn't let it get under my skin.

 

As a hider, I only provide hints when asked, and then I try to feel out the seeker to determine how much hand holding they want,

Once I've figured out what they want, I provide it. Everything from a slight nudge to full disclosure.

[+Muniman]

First I must admit....I have sent emails to DNF's without the cacher asking.

 

********Don't Look Spoiler Ahead ********

 

I will stop. I did not fully realize the impact of the well intended gesture.

[+Proud Soccer Mom]

First I must admit....I have sent emails to DNF's without the cacher asking.

 

********Don't Look Spoiler Ahead ********

 

I will stop. I did not fully realize the impact of the well intended gesture.

 

And now you're going to get complaints...

 

"muniman used to send us hints when we DNFd and he just stopped all of a sudden. I guess he doesn't care if we find his caches!"

 

[Mr.Yuck]

I dunno KBI, people must just like you, and want to help you out. This has only happened to me like twice in 1,700 finds. And it never even occured to me to send unsolicited hints to DNF's.

[+KBI]

I dunno KBI, people must just like you, and want to help you out. This has only happened to me like twice in 1,700 finds.

I have yet to experience this rather odd phenomenon. I suppose that the potential looms just over the horizon, as I dutifully log all my DNFs. If the day ever comes when I receive the dreaded hint e-mail, I reckon I'll follow R.P.s footsteps and just consider it as I would any gift, accepting it in the spirit in which it was given. Surely it would impact my expectations, as I do enjoy a good hunt, but I wouldn't let it get under my skin.

I’m surprised to hear, from you and others, that this is not a more common problem.

 

And no, it’s not the end of the world. It’s just an annoyance. My only complaint is that it discourages me from logging those otherwise valuable DNFs in the first place.

 

As I said in my OP:

I know that the

intentions

of those doing the spoiling are good – they’re only trying to help me find the cache. The problem is that too many people apparently don’t consider that the person logging the DNF may not yet be ready for any help. The caches I have enjoyed the most are the truly difficult ones that I have nevertheless succeeded in finding all by myself – especially if I could find them without decrypting the hint! If I want a bigger hint, I’ll ask for one.

 

And it never even occured to me to send unsolicited hints to DNF's.

As a hider, I only provide hints when asked, and then I try to feel out the seeker to determine how much hand holding they want,

Once I've figured out what they want, I provide it. Everything from a slight nudge to full disclosure.

Like you guys, I never send unrequested hints.

 

When I do, I sometimes like to send more than one hint – a weak hint, a medium hint, and a total spoiler. I send them via three separate emails, each with the contents clearly labeled in the subject line. That way the receiver of the emails can choose exactly how much help to use, and can even print out the unread emails and bring them along on his next attempt in case he changes his mind (about reading them).

[+KBI]

First I must admit....I have sent emails to DNF's without the cacher asking.

The sentiment is always appreciated, even when the hint is not.

 

I will stop. I did not fully realize the impact of the well intended gesture.

Please don’t completely stop helping fellow cachers. All I ask is for cache owners not to send unrequested help.

Edited January 25, 2009 by KBI

[+Muniman]

My post was a little tongue in Cheek. I have received only one (1) such email in 1300 finds (probably 100 DNF's) . I have sent about 5 such emails. Not every DNF got an email. I understand your point.

 

I should only send when requested.

 

Thanks.

Edited January 26, 2009 by muniman

[AZcachemeister]

The subject of logging DNFs has been discussed many times in the past, and I am thoroughly convinced of their value, but I don’t recall seeing this particular point ever having been made:

 

One unfortunate disadvantage of logging a DNF is that it seems to invite unwanted spoilers.

 

I’m a slow learner, but I have recently noticed that almost every time I post a DNF to a cache page – even if I make it clear in my log that the cache sounds like a good one and that I intend to continue my attempt to find it – I soon get an unrequested email that reveals way more than I wanted to know about the hide, usually in the form of a complete spoiler. These emails usually come from the cache owner, but sometimes it’s a previous finder doing the unwelcome spoiling.

 

The first few times this happened to me I responded by politely pointing out that one should probably ask first whether more information is desired before one risks ruining an otherwise challenging and satisfying find for another cacher. All of my response emails have been met with silence.

 

I know that the intentions of those doing the spoiling are good – they’re only trying to help me find the cache. The problem is that too many people apparently don’t consider that the person logging the DNF may not yet be ready for any help. The caches I have enjoyed the most are the truly difficult ones that I have nevertheless succeeded in finding all by myself – especially if I could find them without decrypting the hint! If I want a bigger hint, I’ll ask for one.

 

I’m considering adding this extra bit of text to every DNF that I log in the future:

 

"To my fellow cachers: Please do NOT ruin my enjoyment of this fun, challenging and potentially satisfying cache by emailing me with any unrequested hints or spoilers. I’d like to maintain the option of asking for help ONLY when I want it. Thanks! "

 

 

Opinions?

 

Has anyone else had this problem?

 

Does anyone think my 'solution' is too blunt?

 

We have a local who usually prefaces his DNFs in a similar (but more concise) manner.

I, too, have been subjected to unwanted hints, but that was quite a while ago.

Unless you are prepared to pay someone to censor all your 'Groundspeak' EMail, there is no such thing as 'too blunt'.

The only other option would be to post-log your DNFs after the (hopefully eventual) find to preclude the spoilers.

[+Lakebum]

Okay, I am guilty as charged.

I am one the nice schmuks who have sent an unsolicited hint to KBI after a DNF on one of my caches.

 

So from the other side of the coin:

 

1) your a GGA member with a vote. I am proud of this cache and want you to vote for it. You won't vote for it if you don't find it.

By the way, after the hint I have you 6 months ago you still have not been out there to look again. What gives? While you are there I have some other good ones in the area that need votes, so an email with hints is on the way.....

 

2) More seriously now: We have met, I appreciate your caches, I want you to enjoy mine. So it was a little prod to get you back out there. You have helped me on one of yours I was returning the favor.

 

3) I think my unsolicited hint was very small, and I did honor your request to not spoil it any further. So hopefully I am not the complete bain of this chain

 

I do give unsolicited hints regularly to new cachers. I try to start out with what I think is a small hint that will entice them to look again and lower their frustration level. I offer to give bigger hints or complete spoilers if they want. Some folks take me up on it and some don't.

[+Parabola]

I get a spolier e-mail every once in a while but not very often. I do log all my DNF's but usually I get an e-mail asking first if I want or need a hint or spolier from the owner. I've gotten a few e-mai'sl that say they have posted a spolier but they have put it a the bottom of the e-mail so if I don't want it I don't read threw it and get a hint I didn't want.

 

But I think I post more DNF's than the average user. I don't mind them as long as it's stated in the beginning of the e-mail that there's a spolier so I can choose to read ahead or not.

[+KBI]

Okay, I am guilty as charged.

I am one the nice schmuks who have sent an unsolicited hint to KBI after a DNF on one of my caches.

 

So from the other side of the coin:

 

1) your a GGA member with a vote. I am proud of this cache and want you to vote for it. You won't vote for it if you don't find it.

In case you were wondering: it wasn’t you who prompted me to gripe. In fact, the hint-email that prompted me to post came in response to a DNF I logged under my other account.

 

I’m embarrassed to admit this ... but I only vaguely remember getting a hint from you at all, and as for the hint itself, I no longer remember what it was. I even had to scan my profile just now to see which cache you were referring to.

 

By coincidence I was looking at your cache page just the other day after having seen it listed in the recent GGA 2008 Most Outstanding awards winners list. Congratulations, by the way! I’m glad you won for Most Outstanding Cache Title – I LOVE the name! (I even know where it comes from!)

 

Based on the logs I fully expect to be amazed and impressed. Don’t worry; if I remember to vote next time around, I’ll keep your cache in mind.

 

I have always enjoyed your hides.

 

By the way, after the hint I have you 6 months ago you still have not been out there to look again. What gives? While you are there I have some other good ones in the area that need votes, so an email with hints is on the way.....

Thanks for the warning, and thanks in advance for the hints. I’ll print them out without reading them, and I will take them along with me whenever I go back out there.

 

The reason I haven’t been back to your Tadpole cache yet is that I’m saving the caches in that area for the next time the weather is warm enough (and I’m back in shape enough) for another bicycle ride on the Greenway. If I remember correctly they should have the southern section of the Greenway connected to the Roswell Big Creek Park by now.

 

2) More seriously now: We have met, I appreciate your caches, I want you to enjoy mine. So it was a little prod to get you back out there. You have helped me on one of yours I was returning the favor.

As I have explained in this thread, the thoughtfulness itself is very much appreciated. It’s just that an unexpected hint can sometimes spoil the fun and satisfaction of trying to conquer a difficult challenge without help.

 

I’m sure you understand.

 

3) I think my unsolicited hint was very small, and I did honor your request to not spoil it any further. So hopefully I am not the complete bain of this chain

No, you are not. You are not the reason for my complaint, and I wasn't even thinking of you. Like I said, I no longer remember the hint itself, but I do vaguely remember it being more of a weak nudge than a spoiler.

 

If it only happened rarely I wouldn’t whine, but lately it seems that every time I log a DNF I get an unrequested hint, sometimes in the form of a total spoiler.

 

I log waaay fewer DNFs these days for that very reason.

 

I do give unsolicited hints regularly to new cachers. I try to start out with what I think is a small hint that will entice them to look again and lower their frustration level. I offer to give bigger hints or complete spoilers if they want. Some folks take me up on it and some don't.

Same here. The only thing I do different is that I ask first whether a hint is desired.

 

Thanks for the post, Lakebum! You cache has been on my to-do list all winter, and I am looking forward to conquering it soon.

[+Mudfrog]

Now this is a coincidence that this thread just recently popped back up. In all the time i've been caching and with quite a few dnfs, i had never gotten one of these "helpful" emails,,, until yesterday. Didn't even dawn on me that there might be a spoiler and before i realized it, i had read too much. I know the cacher that sent it and i know he's only trying to help so i'll just have to make sure that i handle future dnfs that i may encounter on his caches, a little differently.

[+Kabuthunk]

I've only had unwanted hints come up once... maybe twice, can't remember. It was a puzzle cache too, and the email basically just straight-out told me the answer. I was thinking along the lines of "aw MAN... well... this just became a Traditional cache for me now".

 

However, in regards to the OP... if it's happening on a more common basis, I think your response is too... "high and mighty", for lack of a better phrase. It sounds just... too... much, in my mind. Can't think of a way to describe it.

 

In either case, I'd personally end the DNF log with pretty much exactly "I'm not looking for hints yet though! I'll be back!". Quick, to the point, and can kinda blend into the log without basically screaming 'do not send me hints'.

[+Proud Soccer Mom]

Well, to be fair, I don't think KBI sounded "high and mighty". I think it was just a post about something that was annoying... and the fact that it happened again and just won't stop happening... well, I'm sure that becomes its own annoyance. There's nothing wrong with a reminder to eager and helpful cache owners that we ought to maybe back-off a little with the helpfulness.

[+TotemLake]

I've had this happen a couple of times. Truth be told, when I see someone consistently DNFing my cache, I feel bad for them and will send an email asking them if they want a more direct pointer.

 

I typically receive a No but thanks for asking kind of answer.

[+WRASTRO]

I've had this happen a couple of times. Truth be told, when I see someone consistently DNFing my cache, I feel bad for them and will send an email asking them if they want a more direct pointer.

 

I typically receive a No but thanks for asking kind of answer.

Yep, this is the way I approach the issue as well. It must be a Kirkland thing.

[+TrailGators]

I've emailed people that DNFed my cache to find out where they looked to try to figure out if it was missing or not. If they looked where it was then I'd go check it out. If not, I tell them to let me know when they need some help.

[+Pat in Louisiana]

I actually had this happen last week.

Got notified of a dnf from an airline pilot and sent him a hint for the next time he was back in town. He emailed me that he had requested no hints or spoilers in his log.

I felt bad because I did not read it to the end and jumped the gun.

[+TrailGators]

I actually had this happen last week.

Got notified of a dnf from an airline pilot and sent him a hint for the next time he was back in town. He emailed me that he had requested no hints or spoilers in his log.

I felt bad because I did not read it to the end and jumped the gun.

Did you check the forums to see if the airplane pilot started a topic about it? Edited January 28, 2009 by TrailGators

[+Unkle Fester]

<snip>

 

I don't log dnf's unless I think the cache might be missing. I've never gotten a spoiler response other than one scrolled down on the page so I had the option of ignoring.

If you didn't find the cache, how do you know it might be missing . . .

 

I log all my DNFs.

 

If I make a thorough search and look at all the likely places with no luck, then it suggests that the cache might be muggled.

 

However, on a couple of occasions I suggested that the cache might be missing and it was logged found the next day or so, so I now end my logs with the caveat that I could be wrong.

 

But not always is the cache there either... I've logged the DNF along with others, seen someone log it found and then the owner disables it because it was muggled. I've also pulled a cache at the request of a parks department only to get home at the end of the day and someone logged it as found before I could disable.

 

I do agree with logging DNF's but only do it once per cache. if I DNF, I DNF, nothing changes that.

 

I hate the ones that you DNF, accept the hint and you realize had your hand on/sat on/stepped on/examined without realizing you had it. But those are usually the very cleaver hides.

 

As for the OP, I only skim the emails, I get 25-30 a day during the winter and over 100 a day in the summer for log notifications. So I have setup my email to sort messages so cache logs go in one folder, maintenance requests go in another, new cache notification... on down the line. If someone contacts me, it's either a question or it's a spoiler.

 

I don't really mind the spoilers because by the time I get back there, I will have forgotten.

[+Unkle Fester]

I actually had this happen last week.

Got notified of a dnf from an airline pilot and sent him a hint for the next time he was back in town. He emailed me that he had requested no hints or spoilers in his log.

I felt bad because I did not read it to the end and jumped the gun.

Did you check the forums to see if the airplane pilot started a topic about it?

Was the cache in his airplane?

 

SPOILER: Log is in the rear lavatory, lift the lid... What, you didn't want one?

[+Rockin Roddy]

I used to email people DNFing my caches and ask them if they'd like a hint...not just send the hint and DEFINITELY not a spoiler unless asked. I have also had the unwanted hint sent to me on a few occasions, but I didn't let them bother me, I was glad to have someone care enough to lend a hand!

 

I like the idea of covering your ears and shouting while reading the email...that'll work!!

[+TrailGators]

I like the idea of covering your ears and shouting while reading the email...that'll work!!