+SimonTuffGuy Posted July 26, 2007 Posted July 26, 2007 Basically... I was flying from PA to TX... I turned my GPS on to see "where" we were... The flight attendant saw my GPS, yelled at me, threatened to have me removed from the plane in handcuffs, etc... Does having my GPS on hurt the airplane equipment? It's not sending any signals, so I didn't see how it would, but I figured I'd ask the experts... Quote
+SimonTuffGuy Posted July 26, 2007 Author Posted July 26, 2007 To clarify just a bit... I'm using a GPSMap 60CSx and it was on a commercial airline flight. We were on a very small plane (ie. 2 seats, asile, 1 seat and then probably 13-14 total rows of seats) Quote
+SimonTuffGuy Posted July 26, 2007 Author Posted July 26, 2007 To clarify just a bit... I'm using a GPSMap 60CSx and it was on a commercial airline flight. We were on a very small plane (ie. 2 seats, asile, 1 seat and then probably 13-14 total rows of seats) Quote
TPKeller Posted July 26, 2007 Posted July 26, 2007 Basically... I was flying from PA to TX... I turned my GPS on to see "where" we were... The flight attendant saw my GPS, yelled at me, threatened to have me removed from the plane in handcuffs, etc... Does having my GPS on hurt the airplane equipment? It's not sending any signals, so I didn't see how it would, but I figured I'd ask the experts... No, it won't, and the flight attendant overreacted in a huge way. I would almost be tempted to complain about it. There are published lists of airlines that specifically allow and that don't allow GPS devices to be used during the cruise phase (just like all other electronic gear) of a flight. There has been much speculation as to why some airlines still don't allow them, but nobody thinks it is because of interference. The reaction you got just illustrates the ignorance of that particular flight attendant. Sure it might be against the rules of that airline, but there is no justification to threaten you with arrest for it. A simple "those aren't allowed during flight, could you please turn it off" would have been much more appropriate. What airline was it, if you don't mind saying? I will make sure to add them to my own "No Fly" list! Theron Quote
TPKeller Posted July 26, 2007 Posted July 26, 2007 (edited) Duplicate post... Edited July 26, 2007 by TPKeller Quote
+Airmapper Posted July 26, 2007 Posted July 26, 2007 No, it is not dangerous to have a GPS on a plane. As with all electronics, there is a very minor possibility it could interfere with the planes electrical system, but it would be extremely unlikely. That said, the GPS I use is no different from any other normal unit, and it's primary use is to be attached to the control column, not a foot away from the instrument panel and radio stack. Were you told not to use electronic devices? I think there are times when you are not allowed to use any device. Quote
+Nachtraaf Posted July 26, 2007 Posted July 26, 2007 Well, I can't tell if it harms or not, but I did it already a few times and we didn't crash :-) Look what nice effect this has on the first image: flight from Pisa (Italy) to Brussels-South (Belgium) Cool, huh? :-) Greetings, Hans Quote
+Miragee Posted July 26, 2007 Posted July 26, 2007 A couple of years ago, I used my Garmin Vista on a Southwest flight from San Diego to Las Vegas to Reno. I even had it on during a take-off and one landing and no one said anything to me. I think the flight attendent way over reacted. It would be interesting to know which airline it was, and if their general policy is to allow GPS receivers in use on their flights. If so, that flight attendent needs a bit of re-education . . . Quote
+Thrak Posted July 26, 2007 Posted July 26, 2007 My 76CSx has a "Jumpmaster Mode" for use by someone coordinating skydiver jumps. It's meant to be used in the plane.................... Quote
+Sputnik 57 Posted July 26, 2007 Posted July 26, 2007 (edited) Whether it is harmful is really irrelevant. Just follow a few simple rules: Rule No. 1: If the pilot wants it off, it stays off. Period. Rule No. 2: Check your airline's web site or in-flight magazine for a list of portable electronic devises. If it is on the approved list, use it when they give the announcement that it is okay to turn them on (over 10,000 feet). Rule No. 3: If a flight attendant freaks out, show him or her the in-flight magazine you found in Rule No. 2. That should solve the problem, but if it doesn't, turn it off. It just isn't worth having your name go on a suspected terrorist list. Rule No. 4: If the flight attendant tells you that the pilot wants it off, see Rule No. 1. The FAA says that it is the airline's obligation to confirm that electronic equipment doesn't interfere with airline safety. Airlines have done extensive testing with laptops and okay their use for fear of losing business travelers. They have little motive to test GPS receivers, but may do so as they become more ubiquitous. Some GPR receivers (e.g., Garmin Rino) do transmit position coordinates and have family radio transmitters built in. Southwest Airlines used to permit them, but sadly, they are now on the list of unapproved devices. Edited July 26, 2007 by Sputnik 57 Quote
+SimonTuffGuy Posted July 26, 2007 Author Posted July 26, 2007 The FA did announce that it was ok to turn on electronic devices... I looked in the books and didn't see anything that talked about GPS devices... it just said no to cell phones, pages, etc. It was extreme over-reaction... Went something like this: Flight attendant said it was fine to turn on electronic devices... I went ahead and turned on the GPS, it acquired the signals (took 5~ minutes to finally grab them)... It was on for another 5 minutes when the flight attendant walked past, saw my "electronic equipment" and had a fit. She said "You're not allowed to have anything that transmits a signal turned on sir", to which I replied "This is a GPS device, it does not transmit any signals, it only receives a signal to tell you where you're at"... She snapped back with a "Let me rephrase that, you're not allowed to have anything that transmits OR RECEIVES a signal turned on... I suggest you turn it off now, unless you want to leave this plane in handcuffs." I turned it off because I was on a pretty strict time schedule to get into TX on time... I didn't have time to be handcuffed... Quote
GeoBobC Posted July 26, 2007 Posted July 26, 2007 Airlines rules rule. Regardless of why, they have the right to demand they be turned off. Personally I've used one for many years, but respect the right of individual airlines to set their own rules. Some airlines such as Alaska specifically state they may not be used. I can choose to fly another airline if that really bothers me. Well, here's another "duh" thought: if the use of an electronic device such as a GPS can influence the aircraft's ability to fly safely.... why do they even allow them on the plane? You can't carry on nail clippers anymore, so why a GPS if it's that dangerous? Instead of box-cutters, I'll bring my GPS? Come on, airlines, get real. Quote
+sejtam Posted July 27, 2007 Posted July 27, 2007 There are published lists of airlines that specifically allow and that don't allow GPS devices to be used during the cruise phase (just like all other electronic gear) of a flight. There has been much speculation as to why some airlines still don't allow them, but nobody thinks it is because of interference. Anyone got a link to such a list? I have used my Vista (and Legend before that) w/o issues on UA and SQ even during takeoff and landing. It does depend on the individual FA mostly though.. Quote
GeoBobC Posted July 27, 2007 Posted July 27, 2007 Check this out: http://gpsinformation.net/airgps/airgps.htm Quote
+JaeCee Posted July 27, 2007 Posted July 27, 2007 (edited) She said "You're not allowed to have anything that transmits a signal turned on sir", to which I replied "This is a GPS device, it does not transmit any signals, it only receives a signal to tell you where you're at"... She snapped back with a "Let me rephrase that, you're not allowed to have anything that transmits OR RECEIVES a signal turned on... I suggest you turn it off now, unless you want to leave this plane in handcuffs." "*****, everything you look at is RECEIVING hundreds of signals whether you like it or not, and whether the object is aware of it or not. RECEIVING a signal is completely unavoidable and inconsequential in every way. It will still be in the presence of the signal when shut off. Go away or I will stab you with my bulky GPS device's antenna." For what it's worth, American Airlines is listed under "Do Not Use" in the above-mentioned link, and I had no problems using mine whatsoever. My flight from MA->CA, I had it laying on the tray table while I ate/looked out the window/napped. Never heard a peep. Edited July 27, 2007 by JaeCee Quote
+Train_Man Posted July 27, 2007 Posted July 27, 2007 That flight attendant was over-reacting, however there are some reasons they don't want gps technology. If a terrorist knows where they are, don't you think that could be a tool for them even it it doesn't shut off the planes radio stack? Also, as with phones, gps, pagers, and anything that's wireless will not interfere with the planes radio stack IF it's properly operating and was FCC authorized. Planes run in the range of 105-130MHZ , which is 100% reserved for flight control as far as the FCC knows, but the airlines are simply avoiding one thing: Devices that are NOT currently running under FCC policy. Also cell phones have a second reason for being banned and that is that they don't want people talking because that could annoy other passengers Quote
NaOHHazmat Posted July 28, 2007 Posted July 28, 2007 That's kind of a bunch of crap. The plane itself (commercial jet) has a GPS receiver. Yours is as likely to crash the plane as theirs is. If theirs is allowed, yours should be too. Are they going to ban people with little pocket FM radios? That's certainly receiving a signal. Quote
TPKeller Posted July 28, 2007 Posted July 28, 2007 (edited) That's kind of a bunch of crap. The plane itself (commercial jet) has a GPS receiver. Yours is as likely to crash the plane as theirs is. If theirs is allowed, yours should be too. Are they going to ban people with little pocket FM radios? That's certainly receiving a signal. Not sure if you are talking about posession, or actual use, but radio receivers of any kind have always been banned from use during flight. At least the last time I checked that was the case. If that is no longer true, I would welcome updated information. Theron Edited July 28, 2007 by TPKeller Quote
TomOfTarsus Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 (edited) I'll raise this thread again as I just flew American and was asked to turn it off. On the trip out I used it with no issue, but on the return I made the mistake of pointing it out to the flight attendant. I should note this was my laptop version with the USB GPSr stuck to the window, so ot's not like I was trying to hide anything. I wanted to raise the thread as well for the excellent link above that lists which arilines do and don't allow GPS. I flew Southwest two weeks back and the FA was enjoying it with me! As to my incident on American, it was much more reasonable that the one described in the OP. I'd recommend that anytime you take exception to an FA's request, you preface it with something to the effect, "I'm prepared to follow your order, but are you aware that this device dosn't transmit anything? It only receives signals from the same satellites that the avionics up front receive." I tried that approach and this poor fellow said, "Yes, but you're not allowed anything that transmits..." So off it went. He probably knew it was on their banned list, but didn't know why. I didn't know the ban worked airline by airline, another reason to be thankful for the thread. Don't the avionics up front listen to a different signal from the sats than our lowest-common-denminator consumer units? That would make another good reason not to have the ban... Best to all, Tom ETA receiver description... Edited June 30, 2008 by TomOfTarsus Quote
+webscouter. Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 A couple of quick points. 1. The flight attendant, pilot a crew have ultimate say over what you can and can't use. Cause a stir and they are well within their limits to have you removed from the plane. 2. Some GPS units transmit and most flight attendants don't want to learn the nuances of each unit. 3. The GPS unit installed in the plane is shielded differently and is tested with the avionics, your GPS isn't Quote
TomOfTarsus Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 (edited) Webscouter: 1. I agree completely. Never use anything but respect when discussing things with an FA. As I said, if you want to point out that it isn't a transmitter, preface your remark with "You're the boss, I will turn it off if you wish..." an then make your point. That's how I did and it was cordial and there were no problems. They have absolute authority and they must be obeyed, no matter how right or wrong it may seem. 2. The same can be said for any handheld electronic device, including laptops, as the point was made above- many users don't know how to turn off their wireless and it remains on. When it comes right down to it, the airlines need to help their pilots and FA's out with this decision. And of course, the real problem is that a saboteur whould not display the fact that they had some sort of jammer in their pocket transmitting much more powerfully than any GPS, laptop, Gameboy, etc. Take this argument about nuances to it's conclusion and all electronic devices will be banned. 3. I thought the thread above said that they were shielded, at least to Class B limits, which, if I've read right, are more stringent than Class A, and neither of which apply to handheld games, etc. But I'm no shielding expert... Edited June 30, 2008 by TomOfTarsus Quote
+Renegade Knight Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 To clarify just a bit... I'm using a GPSMap 60CSx and it was on a commercial airline flight. We were on a very small plane (ie. 2 seats, asile, 1 seat and then probably 13-14 total rows of seats) The FAA has determined that GPS is ok for use on flights. They however leave the use of them at the discression of the airline. The only issue with a GPS is that all electronics emmit some signal just by their use of electricity. GPS however is a a receiver and doesn't emit any signal by design. It just listens passivly. Quote
+Renegade Knight Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 ...2. Some GPS units transmit and most flight attendants don't want to learn the nuances of each unit... Good point. The GPS the OP used doesn't transmit. Garmin does make others that do. The Rhino for example. Bluetooth GPSs like would be used with a laptop also transmit. Quote
TomOfTarsus Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 Good point. The GPS the OP used doesn't transmit. Garmin does make others that do. The Rhino for example. Bluetooth GPSs like would be used with a laptop also transmit. Mine was a USB, not Bluetooth. Direct cable connection, Quote
+naviguesser74 Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 I was on a Southwest flight just this last w.e. I noticed that GPS was on the list for approved use when not taking off or landing (along with, for example, iPods). I use a BT GPSr with my MacBook Pro/MacGPS Pro software and maps all the time Quote
+JSWilson64 Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 Cause a stir and they are well within their limits to have you removed from the plane. At which point, you'll want a GPS with "Jumpmaster" mode! Quote
+Saint367 Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 I flew Jet Blue from Portland, ME to Tampa, FL and back in Feb and used my Garmin 60CSx both ways and nothing was said. I was suprised though I had to have it on the tray by the window seat to get a good signal. I tried to move it to my seat, 2nd from the window, and I would lose the signal. I downloaded the track to some mapping software...looks pretty good. Quote
TomOfTarsus Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 Cause a stir and they are well within their limits to have you removed from the plane. At which point, you'll want a GPS with "Jumpmaster" mode! I LOL'd... BUt anyway, can we here expound anything that buttresses our case - like, our devices use frequency "X", whilst in the cocpit the are listening to a different band? Quote
Wintertime Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 BUt anyway, can we here expound anything that buttresses our case - like, our devices use frequency "X", whilst in the cocpit the are listening to a different band? The aforementioned web page that lists the current policies of different airlines also offers suggestions on what to write in a letter to airline officials. A letter is the only channel through which you should try to argue against an airline's GPS prohibitions. If you're on an airplane, just smile and put the GPS receiver away... Patty Quote
+GPSlug Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 BUt anyway, can we here expound anything that buttresses our case - like, our devices use frequency "X", whilst in the cocpit the are listening to a different band?No case there. The plane's system is using the same frequency as your unit. Quote
+webscouter. Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 Cause a stir and they are well within their limits to have you removed from the plane. At which point, you'll want a GPS with "Jumpmaster" mode! I LOL'd... BUt anyway, can we here expound anything that buttresses our case - like, our devices use frequency "X", whilst in the cocpit the are listening to a different band? The problem is that even though you are not "listening" on the same frequency that electronics run several frequencies and those frequencies have harmonics and subharmonics, additive and subtractive standing waves, etc. The GPS unit is shielded but shielding can breakdown. You would be surprised how little it takes to ruin an EMF cage. Ever wonder why some manufacturers use so many screws in a shield cage? In some of the high frequency radios I used to calibrate the torque of a screw could affect the shielding of the radio. In practice the GPS would probably never interfere with the navigation system of an aircraft. However the time to find out is not while in the air. In order for an instrument to receive an air worthiness certificate it must go through a painstaking testing process. Quote
horseflesh Posted July 1, 2008 Posted July 1, 2008 Threatened with handcuffs! What a wonderful FA. As others have said, the rules on gadget use are pretty silly. "Your GPS might crash the plane, and we take that very seriously, so please--please don't turn it on. KTHXBYE." However, to pick nits, it isn't true that a radio receiver is a totally passive device. A modern radio receiver does produce some radio noise of its own. I quickly googled up something to quote at http://my.integritynet.com.au/purdic/am_rec.htm : A superhetrodyne receiver works on the principle the receiver has a local oscillator called a variable frequency oscillator or V.F.O. This is a bit like having a little transmitter located within the receiver. Now if we still have our T.R.F. stages but then mix the received signal with our v.f.o. we get two other signals. (V.F.O. + R.F) and (V.F.O. - R.F). By way of example, radio scanners will pick up spurious signals from their own guts, so your scan will stop on a freq that seems to be broadcasting emptiness... but it's a phantom. Scanner people call them birdies, and you get them because the scanner does produce signals of its own. Obviously, the amount of hash put out by our gadgets must be pretty benign, or we'd be buried under even more rules when we fly. I wish more airlines were GPS-friendly. Quote
winstonw Posted July 1, 2008 Posted July 1, 2008 (edited) Here's the deal as I am a pilot instructor for a legacy carrier. Our Flight Operations Manual (the real Bible for the airline) specifically states what electronic devices are allowed to be used on an airplane. Each airline sets their own rules, which when signed off on by the FAA, becomes "the law". As a ham radio operator, too, I know of very few radio receivers do not emit spurious radiation. The GPS is no exception. The aircraft was never meant to have "transmitters" in the cabin. Will one GPS cause a problem? Dunno. Will 10 cause a problem? Dunno. The same with cell phones. When you get spurious radiation running around in the wiring of the aircraft, harmonics can be injected in the wires. When the aircraft is flying, the last thing you want is a "command fly down" entering the autopilot or guidance system...or "reduce throttles to idle", etc. So, that is the main reason for not allowing electronic devices. Each type of aircraft (Boeing, Airbus, Embraer, Bombardier) manufacturer has their suggestions regarding electronic devices onboard. In the seat back, the inflight magazine usually has a generalized list of approved and un-approved devices. My carrier allows GPS, without a suction cup antenna, to be used above 10,000 feet. Remember, each carrier submits their operating rules to the FAA. "We will (not) allow GPS to be used onboard." That becomes LAW when signed by the FAA. Interference with a flight crew or flight is not something you want on your resume! It's a federal offense. If my airline diverts because of passenger non-compliance, the passenger is removed, in cuffs, by law enforcement, prosecuted for the offense AND sent the bill for the costs. Bottom line, check the approved list of electronic devices before you pull out the GPS! Edited July 1, 2008 by winstonw Quote
TomOfTarsus Posted July 1, 2008 Posted July 1, 2008 Winstonw: Thanks for an informative reply from a guy "up front." I did write American, but I must admit that if I were in their shoes, with safety being the absolute #1 paramount concern, I'd probably ban a lot more stuff than they -or any airline - bans. With such a plethora of electronic devices out there, it's quite a wonder (or a tribute to good standards) there isn't more problems than we experience. But I stll wanna play with my GPS! (we ned a crybaby smilie!) And let's reiterate it for about the dozenth time on this thread: The pilot (captain) bears ultimate reponsibiliity for his arcraft and the souls aboard - and therefore has ultimate authority. Therefore the FA's also bear that responsibility and authority. They must be obeyed. Period. In my case there was never any question of that on my part, nor any overbearing attitude on the FA's part; he was cordial and professional. But they are to be obeyed. Period. Especially over something like this, which simply is no big deal. Quote
Gamma68 Posted July 1, 2008 Posted July 1, 2008 I flew Jet Blue from Portland, ME to Tampa, FL and back in Feb and used my Garmin 60CSx both ways and nothing was said. I was suprised though I had to have it on the tray by the window seat to get a good signal. I tried to move it to my seat, 2nd from the window, and I would lose the signal. I downloaded the track to some mapping software...looks pretty good. Only place for the signal to get into the cabin is through the windows. Quote
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