Failure to protect the game piece

[+sbell111]

Over the last few days, a number of people have posted that, if confronted with a cache in a location where muggles are present, they would openly make the find, not caring if they are exposing the cache.

 

My thinking is that this is rude. It is disrespectful to the cache owner and any cacher who may attempt to find this cache after you. It also risks danger to the game itself, as these actions are much more likely to result in LEO intervention.

 

I seriously doubt that the people who take these actions would like their caches similarly exposed, whether in an urban environment or on-trail.

 

What do you think of this practice?

[+gpsfun]

If by stating "confronted with a cache" you mean that the geocacher has the cache in hand and is asked to explain what it is and where it came from by a muggle, I would offer a brief explanation of the game and let the muggle know how he or she can start playing if they want. I would also suggest the importance of leaving the cache hidden for the next player, hoping to enlist their support in maintaining the secret.

 

Having seen the aftermath of trying to spin a yarn to explain a cache or its placement, I favor the up front approach. YMMV

[+Mudfrog]

I do try to be stealthy when searching for a cache. I'll try to wait for a good opportunity to get it or sometimes even leave and come back. But To be honest, i'm not going to worry about it too much when the cache owner purposely places one in a spot where muggles routinely abound. Yes i'll try and grab it when no one is looking but there's not much else i can do when the cache is in a lightpole or in the bushes in front of a busy store entrance.

[+sbell111]

If by stating "confronted with a cache" you mean that the geocacher has the cache in hand and is asked to explain what it is and where it came from by a muggle, I would offer a brief explanation of the game and let the muggle know how he or she can start playing if they want. I would also suggest the importance of leaving the cache hidden for the next player, hoping to enlist their support in maintaining the secret.

 

Having seen the aftermath of trying to spin a yarn to explain a cache or its placement, I favor the up front approach. YMMV

No. I mean that the cacher has arrived at ground zero, but has not yet come into contact with the cache. There may be one or a hundred muggles at the location.

[+sbell111]

I do try to be stealthy when searching for a cache. I'll try to wait for a good opportunity to get it or sometimes even leave and come back. But To be honest, i'm not going to worry about it too much when the cache owner purposely places one in a spot where muggles routinely abound. Yes i'll try and grab it when no one is looking but there's not much else i can do when the cache is in a lightpole or in the bushes in front of a busy store entrance.

You could come back at another time or ignore the cache.

[+The Leprechauns]

Sometimes, waiting around and watching all the other people in the busy location looks WAY more suspicious than simply walking up to the hiding place, retrieving the cache, quickly logging in, and then calmly replacing the container. It's the standing around and peeking under things that arouses the suspicion. I've been able to retrieve caches within feet of muggles by simply looking like I was supposed to be there. I could be talking on the cellphone, or tying my shoe, or chatting with my daughter about where to eat lunch, all while logging a cache.

 

Of course, there are other times when there's no way to retrieve the cache without giving it away. A busy shopping center parking lot is different than a quiet scenic overlook. If there's people admiring the view and standing ten feet from the cache, I'll either wait them out or log a DNF. Here is a recent example. Retrieving that cache would have been bad manners and I think those muggles would have taken the cache. Logging a "find" because I "got to the right spot" would also be bad manners. So I happily returned another time, even though the cache was more than 30 miles from my home. (Notice how the DNF and later "Found it" logs are a LOT more fun to read than "I found where it was hidden and claimed a find....?")

 

So, it comes down to a mix of experience and judgement for me. If I can be stealthy, I'll retrieve a cache right under someone's nose. If I cannot avoid detection and risk to the cache, I will pass.

[+BlueDeuce]

If I can be stealthy, I'll retrieve a cache right under someone's nose. If I cannot avoid detection and risk to the cache, I will pass.

 

Ayep.

[+gpsfun]

I do try to be stealthy when searching for a cache. I'll try to wait for a good opportunity to get it or sometimes even leave and come back. But To be honest, i'm not going to worry about it too much when the cache owner purposely places one in a spot where muggles routinely abound. Yes i'll try and grab it when no one is looking but there's not much else i can do when the cache is in a lightpole or in the bushes in front of a busy store entrance.

You could come back at another time or ignore the cache.

When the OP stated "What do you think of this practice?" I thought it was a request for input and not a request for opportunities to criticize the inputs.

 

My misunderstanding; sorry.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

I do try to be stealthy when searching for a cache. I'll try to wait for a good opportunity to get it or sometimes even leave and come back. But To be honest, i'm not going to worry about it too much when the cache owner purposely places one in a spot where muggles routinely abound. Yes i'll try and grab it when no one is looking but there's not much else i can do when the cache is in a lightpole or in the bushes in front of a busy store entrance.

You could come back at another time or ignore the cache.

When the OP stated "What do you think of this practice?" I thought it was a request for input and not a request for opportunities to criticize the inputs.

 

My misunderstanding; sorry.

Very, very well-put! Thank you! My observation exactly! What I have seen here, instead of willingness to hear answers to the question, is the OP taking every chance to lecture others on how they should hunt lame urban micros

Edited July 26, 2007 by Vinny & Sue Team

[+luckycharmer]

We were recently confronted with that situation. The cache was hidden in a zoo with a lot of muggles around. It was an easy find and the clue was a dead give away. Unfortunately the only way to get it was to sit on the rock wall in front of it and calmly slip you hand in and grab it. When we got there a group of school kids were having snack there and the closest we could get to it was 3 feet away. We could actually see it. We would have to had put out arm around one of the kids to get it. We came back several times during our visit but it seems the group had made this spot their meeting place so someone was always there. We were 150 miles from home but no question - we needed to pass rather than draw attention to the prize. Others had passes giving us the chance and we owed that same chance to someone else. It was found by two different family of cachers the next day.

Edited July 26, 2007 by luckycharmer

[+Mudfrog]

I do try to be stealthy when searching for a cache. I'll try to wait for a good opportunity to get it or sometimes even leave and come back. But To be honest, i'm not going to worry about it too much when the cache owner purposely places one in a spot where muggles routinely abound. Yes i'll try and grab it when no one is looking but there's not much else i can do when the cache is in a lightpole or in the bushes in front of a busy store entrance.

You could come back at another time or ignore the cache.

 

I already stated that i sometimes leave and come back on caches. This is on caches where there's a chance that sooner or later, the muggle will leave. A cache placed in front of a busy walmart store is in my opinion, one that there is no reason to leave and come back for. It's going to be busy just about anytime you come by.

 

And you're right, i could skip the cache alltogether. My question is, why should i? Wasn't the cache placed for other cachers to find. It's no one elses fault that the owner purposely placed it in a busy location. Wouldn't you think that the owners of these caches know the risks of the cache going missing when they put it out in this busy location?

[+Kit Fox]

Over the last few days, a number of people have posted that, if confronted with a cache in a location where muggles are present, they would openly make the find, not caring if they are exposing the cache.

 

Most of the time, these caches have the same thing in common:

1. Cache was intentionally placed in "full view" of the general public.
   
2. The majority of these caches are 35mm canisters hidden underneath lamppost covers, in busy parking lots.
   
3. This type of cache almost always was placed on private property "sans permission."
   

My thinking is that this is rude. It is disrespectful to the cache owner and any cacher who may attempt to find this cache after you.

 

I've never been last to find on this type of cache.

 

It also risks danger to the game itself, as these actions are much more likely to result in LEO intervention.

 

I love your deliberate spin If anyone is endangering the game, it is the boneheads, who lack common sense, and keep insisting on placing caches in foolhardy spots to begin with. As for increasing the results of LEO intervention, I place most of the blame on the cacher who exhibits blatant jackassery, by hiding caches in this type of spot to begin with.

 

I seriously doubt that the people who take these actions would like their caches similarly exposed, whether in an urban environment or on-trail.

 

What do you think of this practice?

 

Based on the amount of effort that this type of cacher used to placed this type of cache, I doubt they care much.

 

I do try to be stealthy when searching for a cache. I'll try to wait for a good opportunity to get it or sometimes even leave and come back. But To be honest, i'm not going to worry about it too much when the cache owner purposely places one in a spot where muggles routinely abound. Yes i'll try and grab it when no one is looking but there's not much else i can do when the cache is in a lightpole or in the bushes in front of a busy store entrance.

You could come back at another time or ignore the cache.

When the OP stated "What do you think of this practice?" I thought it was a request for input and not a request for opportunities to criticize the inputs.

 

My misunderstanding; sorry.

Very, very well-put! Thank you! My observation exactly! What I have seen here, instead of willingness to hear answers to the question, is the OP taking every chance to lecture others on how they should hunt lame urban micros

 

Ditto

[+onfire4jesus]

I agree with the rest of you - if it can be done stealthily, great! Otherwise take a DNF.

 

Last month I went down to Titusville, FL to watch the Space Shuttle Atlantis launch. There's one park on the north side of town with three caches in it. One was along the fence line bordering the parking lot. I was easily able to grab it without attracting notice. I re-tied my shoe just in case there was someone watching. Another was a magnetic keyholder stuck to the bottom of a bench. I sat on the bench and was able to grab it inconspicuously. The third was more out in the open. My coordinates put me next to a concrete structure. I assumed it was hidden in the bushes surrounding the structure, but this was right across the street from a playground that was very busy with launch watchers waiting for zero hour. I circled the structure trying to be inconspicuous, hoping that if I spotted it, I could retrieve it with another shoe re-tie, but I finally decided it was too dangerous and took a DNF. It may be years before I get back down to Titusville, but I didn't lose any sleep over that DNF. I checked the log a few days later and someone else had found the cache on a quieter day.

[+chuckwagon101]

Over the last few days, a number of people have posted that, if confronted with a cache in a location where muggles are present, they would openly make the find, not caring if they are exposing the cache.

 

Most of the time, these caches have the same thing in common:

1. Cache was intentionally placed in "full view" of the general public.
   
2. The majority of these caches are 35mm canisters hidden underneath lamppost covers, in busy parking lots.
   
3. This type of cache almost always was placed on private property "sans permission."
   

My thinking is that this is rude. It is disrespectful to the cache owner and any cacher who may attempt to find this cache after you.

 

I've never been last to find on this type of cache.

 

It also risks danger to the game itself, as these actions are much more likely to result in LEO intervention.

 

I love your deliberate spin If anyone is endangering the game, it is the boneheads, who lack common sense, and keep insisting on placing caches in foolhardy spots to begin with. As for increasing the results of LEO intervention, I place most of the blame on the cacher who exhibits blatant jackassery, by hiding caches in this type of spot to begin with.

 

I seriously doubt that the people who take these actions would like their caches similarly exposed, whether in an urban environment or on-trail.

 

What do you think of this practice?

 

Based on the amount of effort that this type of cacher used to placed this type of cache, I doubt they care much.

 

I do try to be stealthy when searching for a cache. I'll try to wait for a good opportunity to get it or sometimes even leave and come back. But To be honest, i'm not going to worry about it too much when the cache owner purposely places one in a spot where muggles routinely abound. Yes i'll try and grab it when no one is looking but there's not much else i can do when the cache is in a lightpole or in the bushes in front of a busy store entrance.

You could come back at another time or ignore the cache.

When the OP stated "What do you think of this practice?" I thought it was a request for input and not a request for opportunities to criticize the inputs.

 

My misunderstanding; sorry.

Very, very well-put! Thank you! My observation exactly! What I have seen here, instead of willingness to hear answers to the question, is the OP taking every chance to lecture others on how they should hunt lame urban micros

 

Ditto

 

Help! I am lost in all the ...."quotes"...."unquote"!

 

Uhhhhhhh...were we talking about McToys??! Oh Boy!

[+nicolo]

I do try to be stealthy when searching for a cache. I'll try to wait for a good opportunity to get it or sometimes even leave and come back. But To be honest, i'm not going to worry about it too much when the cache owner purposely places one in a spot where muggles routinely abound. Yes i'll try and grab it when no one is looking but there's not much else i can do when the cache is in a lightpole or in the bushes in front of a busy store entrance.

You could come back at another time or ignore the cache.

 

I already stated that i sometimes leave and come back on caches. This is on caches where there's a chance that sooner or later, the muggle will leave. A cache placed in front of a busy walmart store is in my opinion, one that there is no reason to leave and come back for. It's going to be busy just about anytime you come by.

 

And you're right, i could skip the cache alltogether. My question is, why should i? Wasn't the cache placed for other cachers to find. It's no one elses fault that the owner purposely placed it in a busy location. Wouldn't you think that the owners of these caches know the risks of the cache going missing when they put it out in this busy location?

This is exactly how I feel. The cache owner knows that he/she is taking a risk by placing the cache in a high-muggle are and they implicitly accept that this will be a high-maintenance cache.

 

If the cache owner doesn't even bother to put a Stealth attribute or "stealth required" comment in their cache description then I don't feel obligated in the least bit to use stealth. Mind you, if there's someone 5 feet away, I'll just walk away ( and be very pissed off ).

[+sbell111]

I do try to be stealthy when searching for a cache. I'll try to wait for a good opportunity to get it or sometimes even leave and come back. But To be honest, i'm not going to worry about it too much when the cache owner purposely places one in a spot where muggles routinely abound. Yes i'll try and grab it when no one is looking but there's not much else i can do when the cache is in a lightpole or in the bushes in front of a busy store entrance.

You could come back at another time or ignore the cache.

When the OP stated "What do you think of this practice?" I thought it was a request for input and not a request for opportunities to criticize the inputs.

 

My misunderstanding; sorry.

I can understand why you would think that. It was, however, an opportunity to give input and discuss the issue.

[+sbell111]

I do try to be stealthy when searching for a cache. I'll try to wait for a good opportunity to get it or sometimes even leave and come back. But To be honest, i'm not going to worry about it too much when the cache owner purposely places one in a spot where muggles routinely abound. Yes i'll try and grab it when no one is looking but there's not much else i can do when the cache is in a lightpole or in the bushes in front of a busy store entrance.

You could come back at another time or ignore the cache.

When the OP stated "What do you think of this practice?" I thought it was a request for input and not a request for opportunities to criticize the inputs.

 

My misunderstanding; sorry.

Very, very well-put! Thank you! My observation exactly! What I have seen here, instead of willingness to hear answers to the question, is the OP taking every chance to lecture others on how they should hunt lame urban micros

You know, up to your post, I had posted three times in this thread.

1. The opening post.
   
2. A requested clarification of the opening post
   
3. the post in which you questioned because I offered other alternatives to the poster's 'not much else I can do' comment.
   

How is this evidence of 'taking every chance to lecture'? Cheese and crackers.

[+sbell111]

Several people have posted remarks that kind of sound like 'I hate these kinds of caches anyway, so why do I care if it goes missing'. My thinking is that if you don't like to stealthily find a micro in a field of muggles, then you should walk away and ignore the cache rather than ruin the cache for those people that believe that the stealth-factor is a big part of the fun of this game.

Edited July 26, 2007 by sbell111

[+Kit Fox]

Several people have posted remarks that kind of sound like 'I hate these kinds of caches anyway, so why do I care if it goes missing'. My thinking is that if you don't like to stealthily find a micro in a field of muggles, then you should walk away and ignore the cache rather than ruin the cache for those people that believe that the stealth-factor is a big part of the fun of this game.

 

I'll speak for myself, I can't stand this type of cache anymore, so I don't hunt them. Maybe I'm one of those types who doesn't get "pretending to be a spy, while looking for a 'secret' gamepiece."

[+Stussy]

I have to put my two cents in here. If there are that many muggles around, then the cache owner when placing it needst o keep this in mind. If the cache owner is giong to feel any bit upset that a muggle might find it, then he/she must do a better job in hiding it in the first place.

 

There are waaaayyy too many caches out there that are right on a path, under a bench, etc. There is one by my place where the cache is in the owners front yard.

 

I try to stay away from these caches because I am in it for the adventure and excercise doing a real treasure hunt.

 

Thanks for letting me have my say.

 

Stussy

[+Mule Ears]

Several people have posted remarks that kind of sound like 'I hate these kinds of caches anyway, so why do I care if it goes missing'. My thinking is that if you don't like to stealthily find a micro in a field of muggles, then you should walk away and ignore the cache rather than ruin the cache for those people that believe that the stealth-factor is a big part of the fun of this game.

 

Exactly. I'm incapable of stealth in public, so I stay the heck away from these hides. I will say, though, that cache owners need to be realistic. Eventually, no matter how careful and skillful searchers are, they are going to compomise the hide and you're going to end up replacing the cache. If you want maintenance-free cache ownership, 'stealth-required' hides are not the way to go.

 

This is probably a good thing, as the PITA factor for the owner may help hold down the rate of growth of this particular kind of hide.

[+sbell111]

Several people have posted remarks that kind of sound like 'I hate these kinds of caches anyway, so why do I care if it goes missing'. My thinking is that if you don't like to stealthily find a micro in a field of muggles, then you should walk away and ignore the cache rather than ruin the cache for those people that believe that the stealth-factor is a big part of the fun of this game.

 

Exactly. I'm incapable of stealth in public, so I stay the heck away from these hides. I will say, though, that cache owners need to be realistic. Eventually, no matter how careful and skillful searchers are, they are going to compomise the hide and you're going to end up replacing the cache. If you want maintenance-free cache ownership, 'stealth-required' hides are not the way to go.

 

This is probably a good thing, as the PITA factor for the owner may help hold down the rate of growth of this particular kind of hide.

Well put.

 

There's a big difference between trying to make the find without being spotted and just going for it not caring if anyone spots you.

Edited July 26, 2007 by sbell111

[+JohnnyVegas]

Several people have posted remarks that kind of sound like 'I hate these kinds of caches anyway, so why do I care if it goes missing'. My thinking is that if you don't like to stealthily find a micro in a field of muggles, then you should walk away and ignore the cache rather than ruin the cache for those people that believe that the stealth-factor is a big part of the fun of this game.

1st) Most of these cache are nothing more them midro spew

2nd) It would appear that these caches are not well thought out because of their placement

3rd) The cache owners will not include a hint (A hint can protect a cache from being muggled)

4th) If I a am hour or two form home I am not going to make a second trip to find the cache

5th) It is up to the cache owner to place the cache in a way that muggles will not be a major problem

[+StarBrand]

I'll give a somewhat mixed response.

 

I think some of the other recent threads and discussions center more on behavior of finders rather than comprimising the cache.

 

It is basically a judgement call based on the situation. Can I walk over and get this cache right now without someone following me close behind and taking it? That is the question we all have to ask.

 

My experience is that in many cases - walking boldly up to the spot, taking it out signing it and replacing it as though it was your very purpose and business in life is far better than lurking around and constantly looking over your shoulder acting nervous and jittery. Many times these types of caches are placed in high traffic muggle areas.

 

Having said that, I will (and I have) walk away if I determine that some of the folks nearby are likely to become too curious about my actions no matter what.

 

Some caches are just never going to be muggle free. The hider knew it when they placed it. I want to protect the gamepiece but can exploit the situation sometimes to do so by being bold. Mixed message - I know.

[+sbell111]

Several people have posted remarks that kind of sound like 'I hate these kinds of caches anyway, so why do I care if it goes missing'. My thinking is that if you don't like to stealthily find a micro in a field of muggles, then you should walk away and ignore the cache rather than ruin the cache for those people that believe that the stealth-factor is a big part of the fun of this game.

1st) Most of these cache are nothing more them midro spew

2nd) It would appear that these caches are not well thought out because of their placement

3rd) The cache owners will not include a hint (A hint can protect a cache from being muggled)

4th) If I a am hour or two form home I am not going to make a second trip to find the cache

5th) It is up to the cache owner to place the cache in a way that muggles will not be a major problem

1. 'Micro spew' is in the eyes of the beholder. Many people enjoy caches that you do not.
   
2. Many people enjoy the challenge that these caches offer.
   
3. Hints are not required. The absence of a hint does not void a cacher's responsibility.
   
4. You still have the option to walk away from it and either ignore it, or not.
   
5. Again, many cachers enjoy this type of cache. The guidelines don't require that a cache not be in an area with muggles. It is up to all cachers to try to make sure that they don't give away the cache location.
   

Edited July 26, 2007 by sbell111

[+sbell111]

I'll give a somewhat mixed response.

 

I think some of the other recent threads and discussions center more on behavior of finders rather than comprimising the cache.

 

It is basically a judgement call based on the situation. Can I walk over and get this cache right now without someone following me close behind and taking it? That is the question we all have to ask.

 

My experience is that in many cases - walking boldly up to the spot, taking it out signing it and replacing it as though it was your very purpose and business in life is far better than lurking around and constantly looking over your shoulder acting nervous and jittery. Many times these types of caches are placed in high traffic muggle areas.

 

Having said that, I will (and I have) walk away if I determine that some of the folks nearby are likely to become too curious about my actions no matter what.

 

Some caches are just never going to be muggle free. The hider knew it when they placed it. I want to protect the gamepiece but can exploit the situation sometimes to do so by being bold. Mixed message - I know.

I don't think that it was a mixed message, at all. From your post, I believe that you take every step to protect the caches. I see nothing wrong with making the find 'in the open' if it can be done in a way that doesn't bring attention to a cache. That's not the same as those caches who insist on logging every one just because they have arrived and that they will be durned if they aren't going to get their precious smiley, regardless of who witnesses their actions.

[+Mudfrog]

Several people have posted remarks that kind of sound like 'I hate these kinds of caches anyway, so why do I care if it goes missing'. My thinking is that if you don't like to stealthily find a micro in a field of muggles, then you should walk away and ignore the cache rather than ruin the cache for those people that believe that the stealth-factor is a big part of the fun of this game.

 

I don't hate these caches and in fact, i do sometimes enjoy the challenge that comes with finding them while non cachers are present. Also, i'm not saying that i go for the cache with no regard to who is watching, as i definitely try to be stealthy.

 

What i am saying is that if i drive in from out of town and come across one of these, then i'm going to do my best to use stealth and get it. Of course someone may see me but that's pretty much an unavoidable risk with this type of hide. People who put out caches in places like this should realize that there is a good chance that there is going to be alot of maintenance involved in keeping it going.

[+JohnnyVegas]

From the guidlines for placing a cache

 

Guidelines that Apply to all Cache Types

 

For all physical caches and waypoints, think carefully about how your container and the actions of geocachers will be perceived by the public. For example, a cache hidden in full view of office or apartment building windows exposes a geocacher to being seen by someone who may think the cache search looks suspicious.

 

A person needs to use their head when placing a cache.

I bigger threat to the game are illegal caches, A cache getting muggled is not really a threat to the game. I cache that is placed in an illegal way is the real threat to the game.

[+sbell111]

Several people have posted remarks that kind of sound like 'I hate these kinds of caches anyway, so why do I care if it goes missing'. My thinking is that if you don't like to stealthily find a micro in a field of muggles, then you should walk away and ignore the cache rather than ruin the cache for those people that believe that the stealth-factor is a big part of the fun of this game.

 

I don't hate these caches and in fact, i do sometimes enjoy the challenge that comes with finding them while non cachers are present. Also, i'm not saying that i go for the cache with no regard to who is watching, as i definitely try to be stealthy.

 

What i am saying is that if i drive in from out of town and come across one of these, then i'm going to do my best to use stealth and get it. Of course someone may see me but that's pretty much an unavoidable risk with this type of hide. People who put out caches in places like this should realize that there is a good chance that there is going to be alot of maintenance involved in keeping it going.

You and I are in agreement.

[Mr.Yuck]

I do try to be stealthy when searching for a cache. I'll try to wait for a good opportunity to get it or sometimes even leave and come back. But To be honest, i'm not going to worry about it too much when the cache owner purposely places one in a spot where muggles routinely abound. Yes i'll try and grab it when no one is looking but there's not much else i can do when the cache is in a lightpole or in the bushes in front of a busy store entrance.

You could come back at another time or ignore the cache.

When the OP stated "What do you think of this practice?" I thought it was a request for input and not a request for opportunities to criticize the inputs.

 

My misunderstanding; sorry.

Very, very well-put! Thank you! My observation exactly! What I have seen here, instead of willingness to hear answers to the question, is the OP taking every chance to lecture others on how they should hunt lame urban micros

You know, up to your post, I had posted three times in this thread.

1. The opening post.
   
2. A requested clarification of the opening post
   
3. the post in which you questioned because I offered other alternatives to the poster's 'not much else I can do' comment.
   

How is this evidence of 'taking every chance to lecture'? Cheese and crackers.

 

A very astute observation by Vinny. Despite this denial in post # 17, your very next reply in post 18 just screams out "I'm here to tell people how to hunt lame micros". Just do everyone a favor, and report your own thread.

Edited July 26, 2007 by TheWhiteUrkel

[+Thrak]

If I can retrieve and replace the cache without compromising it then I'll do so. Otherwise I'll return later or simply write it off as a cache I don't want to bother with.

 

I've seen cache listings where I knew that muggles would be an issue and simply gone at times when I figured most muggles wouldn't be in the area. I find caching after dark to be fun which helps a lot.

[+Mule Ears]

A different perspective: Some people have stated that their style of stealth involves projecting confidence. They make the find openly on the theory that it looks less suspicious than being furtive. The other group has stated that they make the find openly because they don't care if this kind of cache gets muggled.

 

The difference between the two may only be state of mind! To an observing Muggle, the finds may be identical.

 

The biggest threat to stealth-required caches is probably the un-stealthy individual who really wants to protect the cache, but doesn't realize that his efforts to be stealthy are drawing attention to him.

[+J-Way]

I make a distinction between a 35mm LPC and a creative micro/nano. LPC's exist purely for the numbers (one more hide for the hider, one more find for the finder). There is no thrill of discovery (the "AHA!" moment) after the first one, you are almost never brought to an interesting place, and they take a half step above zero effort to place or find.

 

Also, unless you're totally alone (unlikely in an urban area, even in the wee hours of the morning), there is NO inconspicuous way to lift a lamppost skirt, especially a metal one that squeals against the post as you lift. Maybe if I were to wear my muggle camouflage (hard hat, clipboard, and reflective orange vest), but I'm not going to that much trouble when all the owner did was chunk a 35mm film can in a parking lot. A more creative hide (where the owner actually puts a little work into it) DOES justify the effort, and I'll do everything I can to prevent muggle discovery.

 

So... after all this babbling, I guess I'm saying that my level of muggle deterrence effort is directly proportional to the level of hiding effort used by the owner. I'll walk away from a LPC if there is a party all around it or someone is directly watching the cache or me, otherwise go for it. I'll do everything I can to protect a creative and well-hidden micro.

[+sbell111]

A different perspective: Some people have stated that their style of stealth involves projecting confidence. They make the find openly on the theory that it looks less suspicious than being furtive. The other group has stated that they make the find openly because they don't care if this kind of cache gets muggled.

 

The difference between the two may only be state of mind! To an observing Muggle, the finds may be identical.

Based on posts by StarBrand and others, I suspect that there is more to it than that. In my opinion, the confidence-projecting cacher likely has analyzed the muggles behavior to determine whether, in his/her opinion, the confidence approach will work and will not go after the cache if failure is likely. The cacher who doesn't care, doesn't care.

[+sbell111]

I make a distinction between a 35mm LPC and a creative micro/nano. LPC's exist purely for the numbers (one more hide for the hider, one more find for the finder). There is no thrill of discovery (the "AHA!" moment) after the first one, you are almost never brought to an interesting place, and they take a half step above zero effort to place or find.

 

Also, unless you're totally alone (unlikely in an urban area, even in the wee hours of the morning), there is NO inconspicuous way to lift a lamppost skirt, especially a metal one that squeals against the post as you lift. Maybe if I were to wear my muggle camouflage (hard hat, clipboard, and reflective orange vest), but I'm not going to that much trouble when all the owner did was chunk a 35mm film can in a parking lot. A more creative hide (where the owner actually puts a little work into it) DOES justify the effort, and I'll do everything I can to prevent muggle discovery.

 

So... after all this babbling, I guess I'm saying that my level of muggle deterrence effort is directly proportional to the level of hiding effort used by the owner. I'll walk away from a LPC if there is a party all around it or someone is directly watching the cache or me, otherwise go for it. I'll do everything I can to protect a creative and well-hidden micro.

For me, your theory fails at the 'thrill of discovery' issue. You see, other cachers may love that cache because the thrill of being able to log it unnoticed is greater. It would be a shame if this enjoyment was ruined because you didn't show care an hour earlier.

[+J-Way]

I've seen cache listings where I knew that muggles would be an issue and simply gone at times when I figured most muggles wouldn't be in the area. I find caching after dark to be fun which helps a lot.

An excellent point; I also enjoy hunting urban caches after dark with a good flashlight. I had a rather enjoyable evening finding 9 of 10 of the Hide & Seek series in Clemson, SC one Friday night, with only one LEO and one athletic department confrontation. A quick explanation (and showing the container in one case) was all it took. These were all well hidden puzzle-cache nanos, and some were in VERY high traffic areas during certain times of the day (as in one was near one of the main gates for the Clemson Tigers football stadium). But I would not have gone to this level of stealth for 9 LPC's, nor would I have had as much fun.

[+J-Way]

For me, your theory fails at the 'thrill of discovery' issue. You see, other cachers may love that cache because the thrill of being able to log it unnoticed is greater. It would be a shame if this enjoyment was ruined because you didn't show care an hour earlier.

Good point, so ignore the first paragraph.

 

To summarize: I'll put as much effort into keeping the cache from being found as the owner put into actually hiding it.

[+CYBret]

Over the last few days, a number of people have posted that, if confronted with a cache in a location where muggles are present, they would openly make the find, not caring if they are exposing the cache.

 

My thinking is that this is rude. It is disrespectful to the cache owner and any cacher who may attempt to find this cache after you. It also risks danger to the game itself, as these actions are much more likely to result in LEO intervention.

 

I seriously doubt that the people who take these actions would like their caches similarly exposed, whether in an urban environment or on-trail.

 

What do you think of this practice?

 

For me, there's no shame in taking a DNF. I think it would be a shame to cause a cache to be exposed/muggled....any cache for that matter.

 

It's happened before. I've been right there...had the cache within reach, could even see it...and had to walk away.

 

Makes for a fun log.

 

Bret

[+mousekakat]

Just wondering, to a certain degree, aren't muggles kind of necessary to the game at times? I mean.... sure, a lot of people hear about Geocaching via word of mouth from other cachers or a news article, but isn't seeing it in action the best method to getting it out?

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't go out screaming "look what I'm doing!" but by the same token, if someone does happen to be out where I'm caching, usually at the top of a mountain or on a trail, I inform them of the sport and what it's about.

 

I just think that it's a good thing to educate others on this wonderful sport and let them see it in person than let them pick it up alone and make a total screw up of it...

 

Maybe that's how some of those folks who put out the lame lampskirt micro's got into it....

 

Just a thought!

[+mousekakat]

Stupid server...

 

grrr... double post!

Edited July 26, 2007 by mousekakat

[+Mule Ears]

A different perspective: Some people have stated that their style of stealth involves projecting confidence. They make the find openly on the theory that it looks less suspicious than being furtive. The other group has stated that they make the find openly because they don't care if this kind of cache gets muggled.

 

The difference between the two may only be state of mind! To an observing Muggle, the finds may be identical.

Based on posts by StarBrand and others, I suspect that there is more to it than that. In my opinion, the confidence-projecting cacher likely has analyzed the muggles behavior to determine whether, in his/her opinion, the confidence approach will work and will not go after the cache if failure is likely. The cacher who doesn't care, doesn't care.

 

Yeah, I'll admit there was more than a little wishful thinking in my original proposition

 

It does seem likely that a lot of the gruff talk is only talk meant to discourage folks from placing this kind of cache. A certain stigma attaches to being last to find a particular cache.

[+Mudfrog]

A different perspective: Some people have stated that their style of stealth involves projecting confidence. They make the find openly on the theory that it looks less suspicious than being furtive. The other group has stated that they make the find openly because they don't care if this kind of cache gets muggled.

 

The difference between the two may only be state of mind! To an observing Muggle, the finds may be identical.

 

The biggest threat to stealth-required caches is probably the un-stealthy individual who really wants to protect the cache, but doesn't realize that his efforts to be stealthy are drawing attention to him.

 

I think the same thing. For some, the harder they try to be stealthy, the more attention they garner from others in the area. I've watched people at times and it doesn't take long before their actions can make them look out of place.

 

Also. returning later in the evening is sometimes an option. But then, depending on the location of the cache, you may have a better chance of drawing the attention of nosey people and/or a law official. Flashlights used in certain areas definitely draw attention fast!

 

Both the hider and the finder have certain obligations when caching, but i think that the bigger burden falls on the hider to place the cache in a satisfactory manner. Sure it's ok to place his cache in muggle rich territory but he shouldn't get too upset if and when the cache gets muggled!

[Luckless]

I have gone after a cache with muggles around. I'll usually look around and try to size up the situation. How far away, what are they doing- are they preoccupied, do they look at all interested in what I'm doing...? Usually I'll walk away and leave the cache for another time...or never rather than risk others finding it. As for placing my caches I usually take the muggle factor into consideration. I have one in a park where there is a big lawn and two benches. The cache is just off the lawn in the trees and even if people are sitting on the benches it is situated so that the view from each bench is blocked by a tree. I try to situate a cache so there is something blocking cachers from view.

I'm not very good at stealth. I spend an awful lot of time looking over my shoulder which actually makes me look more suspicious. I have found that if muggles do begin to stare at me and wonder what I'm doing over there in the woods I start picking up sticks. Seems to keep them happy to know I'm just out there picking up sticks.

One time I did have a muggle sneak right in front of me and surprise the heck out of me, but then he wagged his tail and went on his way.

[+Kit Fox]

For me, your theory fails at the 'thrill of discovery' issue. You see, other cachers may love that cache because the thrill of being able to log it unnoticed is greater. It would be a shame if this enjoyment was ruined because you didn't show care an hour earlier.

Good point, so ignore the first paragraph.

 

To summarize: I'll put as much effort into keeping the cache from being found as the owner put into actually hiding it.

 

That is the best comeback line i've read in quite some time.

[+sbell111]

For me, your theory fails at the 'thrill of discovery' issue. You see, other cachers may love that cache because the thrill of being able to log it unnoticed is greater. It would be a shame if this enjoyment was ruined because you didn't show care an hour earlier.

Good point, so ignore the first paragraph.

 

To summarize: I'll put as much effort into keeping the cache from being found as the owner put into actually hiding it.

That is the best comeback line i've read in quite some time.

The problem with it is it attempts to punishes the cache hider, but is more likely to affect future cache seekers.

[+Kit Fox]

For me, your theory fails at the 'thrill of discovery' issue. You see, other cachers may love that cache because the thrill of being able to log it unnoticed is greater. It would be a shame if this enjoyment was ruined because you didn't show care an hour earlier.

Good point, so ignore the first paragraph.

 

To summarize: I'll put as much effort into keeping the cache from being found as the owner put into actually hiding it.

That is the best comeback line i've read in quite some time.

The problem with it is it attempts to punishes the cache hider, but is more likely to affect future cache seekers.

 

Call me self serving, or opinionated, but if a cache like we described in the beginning of this thread disappears, because of it's poor placement, and a new cacher doesn't get a chance to find this cache, there is a greater chance that they won't try to emulate such a poorly placed cache.

 

We could be improving the game.

[+sbell111]

For me, your theory fails at the 'thrill of discovery' issue. You see, other cachers may love that cache because the thrill of being able to log it unnoticed is greater. It would be a shame if this enjoyment was ruined because you didn't show care an hour earlier.

Good point, so ignore the first paragraph.

 

To summarize: I'll put as much effort into keeping the cache from being found as the owner put into actually hiding it.

That is the best comeback line i've read in quite some time.

The problem with it is it attempts to punishes the cache hider, but is more likely to affect future cache seekers.

 

Call me self serving, or opinionated, but if a cache like we described in the beginning of this thread disappears, because of it's poor placement, and a new cacher doesn't get a chance to find this cache, there is a greater chance that they won't try to emulate such a poorly placed cache.

 

We could be improving the game.

OK, done (and other things). Edited July 26, 2007 by sbell111

[+edscott]

Call me self serving, or opinionated, but if a cache like we described in the beginning of this thread disappears, because of it's poor placement, and a new cacher doesn't get a chance to find this cache, there is a greater chance that they won't try to emulate such a poorly placed cache.

 

We could be improving the game.

 

Yup.. culling the herd so to speak.. or maybe just a pinch of Darwinism. I like the concept.

[+sbell111]

Call me self serving, or opinionated, but if a cache like we described in the beginning of this thread disappears, because of it's poor placement, and a new cacher doesn't get a chance to find this cache, there is a greater chance that they won't try to emulate such a poorly placed cache.

 

We could be improving the game.

 

Yup.. culling the herd so to speak.. or maybe just a pinch of Darwinism. I like the concept.

I do too. From now on, if I don't like a cache (or cache owner), I'm going to sabotage it. That's a GREAT idea.

 

EDIT: to, two, too

Edited July 26, 2007 by sbell111

[+OEnavigators]

I'll give a somewhat mixed response.

 

I think some of the other recent threads and discussions center more on behavior of finders rather than comprimising the cache.

 

It is basically a judgement call based on the situation. Can I walk over and get this cache right now without someone following me close behind and taking it? That is the question we all have to ask.

 

My experience is that in many cases - walking boldly up to the spot, taking it out signing it and replacing it as though it was your very purpose and business in life is far better than lurking around and constantly looking over your shoulder acting nervous and jittery. Many times these types of caches are placed in high traffic muggle areas.

 

Having said that, I will (and I have) walk away if I determine that some of the folks nearby are likely to become too curious about my actions no matter what.

 

Some caches are just never going to be muggle free. The hider knew it when they placed it. I want to protect the gamepiece but can exploit the situation sometimes to do so by being bold. Mixed message - I know.

 

I agree. There's no shame in logging a DNF. It alerts other cachers to probable problems with too many muggles. I really don't care for micros that much but I do hunt them from time to time. I still remember one placed under a newspaper machine two feet from a Wal-Mart Supercenter entrance. That was fun!

I know cachers that filter out every cache but 1 star micros when they travel. To me that sounds DULL! But to them seeing their numbers is the excitement.

That being said I would never jeopardize a cache because I didn't like the placement. It would be wrong. That's just IMHO.