Mislabeling cache listing

[+AlmondEyes]

Am I wrong? I'm very aggravated about caches that are listed as traditional or multi when, in my opinion, they are puzzle caches:

 

A cache listed as a traditional or multi shouldn't require any sort of puzzle to solve or paper to print out to find that cache. You should find some sort of container with the actual cache or at least new co-ordinates (or the information to find the new co-ordinates) at the posted co-ordinates on the cache listing that download into your GPS.

 

I download caches into my GPS. Those that say they are traditional or multi I leave as the treasure chest symbol. Those labeled as a virtual or puzzle I change the icon so I know I have to read the listing and print out the info before heading out to them.

 

I keep finding caches listed as traditional or multi that I head out for to find no container. Frustrated that I couldn't find the cache after looking for quite some time, I'm angry when I read the listing to find I needed to read a plaque or solve a puzzle or whatever to get new co-ordinates to find the real container.

 

Am I wrong or is the cache owner wrong who should have listed their cache as a puzzle.

[+admo1972]

I think I agree that it is a puzzle, but would have to see the GC# as an example...

[+sbell111]

I suspect that this is happening only with very old caches.

[+admo1972]

GC11N9K is an example of a multi that I think should be considered a puzzle. The posted coordinates bring you to a plaque, to which you so some simple math to get the final.

 

I guess these kinds are in a bit of a grey zone. I'd lean towards puzzle.

[+Miragee]

I understand your frustration and agree. For a Multi cache, you have to read the description before heading to the first waypoint to learn what you are looking for. However, you might need pen and paper, or your PDA calculator to figure out the coordinates for the next waypoint or the final cache.

 

If when you get to one of the Waypoints you have to figure out a Puzzle, you should bring that to the attention of your local Reviewer so they can change the cache designation to Puzzle. In the past, I contacted my Reviewer about a cache designated as a Puzzle that was really just a Multi. I also requested that a cache designated as a Traditional be changed to the Multi it really was. Each was changed to the correct designation.

 

I have looked for some older caches designated as Traditional that were technically Multis or "Offsets." I should have read the cache descriptions on those before heading off to the coordinates . . . Lesson learned, I hope . . .

[+sbell111]

GC11N9K is an example of a multi that I think should be considered a puzzle. The posted coordinates bring you to a plaque, to which you so some simple math to get the final.

 

I guess these kinds are in a bit of a grey zone. I'd lean towards puzzle.

I'd be happy with 'multi' or 'puzzle', but it's not a traditional, as you've explained it.

[+AlmondEyes]

Ok, so you folks agree with me. Is this a geocaching.com rule? Should I contact someone to complain? It would save other people the trouble of trekking out for a container they aren't going to find. I'd sure appreciate any such future caches to be changed before I waste my time again......

[+sbell111]

Ok, so you folks agree with me. Is this a geocaching.com rule? Should I contact someone to complain? It would save other people the trouble of trekking out for a container they aren't going to find. I'd sure appreciate any such future caches to be changed before I waste my time again......

If I really, really cared about the issue, I would contact the cache owner first. If nothing happened, I'd then shoot an email to the local reviewer.

Edited June 26, 2007 by sbell111

[+AlmondEyes]

I agree to contact the owner first before complaining 'higher up'. But my question is is this an actual rule/guideline when listing a cache? I have no leg to stand on to complain if I'm completely incorrect.

Edited June 26, 2007 by AlmondEyes

[+sbell111]

I agree to contact the owner first before complaining 'higher up'. But my question is is this an actual rule/guideline when listing a cache? I have no leg to stand on to complain if I'm completely incorrect.

You are correct. The definition of each cache type is clear in the guidelines.

[+Lotho]

If reading a plaque to get information and then doing a sum is a puzzle for you, maybe you should attend some sort of evening maths class XD

Edited June 26, 2007 by Lotho

[+Miragee]

GC11N9K is an example of a multi that I think should be considered a puzzle. The posted coordinates bring you to a plaque, to which you so some simple math to get the final.

 

I guess these kinds are in a bit of a grey zone. I'd lean towards puzzle.

What you describe here is a very typical Multi cache, not a Puzzle. I would have no problem with that cache being listed as Multi. If it were listed as Traditional, I would contact my Reviewer, because only the Reviewer can change the Type of cache.

[+tozainamboku]

Some older caches are listed as traditional that should be either mystery or multi. When I started geocaching this was very common. You had to read the cache page . Paperless caching has turned us into zombies who blindly follow the arrow on the GPS without reading. Perhaps we need an attribute - Cache can/cannot be done without reading the cache page.

 

That said, the reviewers have been pretty good at changing some of these mislabeled caches to the correct type. Drop a note to the local reviewer about the cache in question and they will take a look.

 

Finally, I don't agree that a multi can not include a puzzle portion. One type of mult is the offset cache. You go to the posted coordinates where you might find some information you need to find the final cache. This might involve computing the final coordinates or using clues to find the cache letterbox style. A similar setup could be used at any stage of multicache. I have seen some multi that have puzzles to solve at each stage. Also, this definition would fit night caches that use reflective tacks to guide you to the next stage. Again, if you don't read the cache page, you might try to do one of these in the daytime.

[+Teach2Learn]

Sorry, I don't think I agree at all, if I understand you correctly. Finding a plaque and obtaining numbers to a next stage makes it an offset, a form of a multi, not a puzzle or mystery cache.

 

From the Hide/Seek a Cache guidelines page, under the heading Multi-Caches:

"Offset caches are a variation on multi-caches. They are listed as a multi-cache when selecting a cache type. They are not found by simply going to some coordinates and finding a cache there. With the offset cache the published coordinates could be of an existing historical monument, plaque, or even a benchmark that you would like to have your cache hunter visit. At this spot, the hunter looks for numbers or information already appearing on the marker or on some part of the marker or site (geocachers NEVER deface public or private property). The geocacher is then able to manipulate these numbers or information using instructions posted on the cache page to continue the hunt."

 

I would not want this changed to a puzzle/mystery designation because I want people to read the cache page, not just head out after downloading every new cache listing because they want to go paperless. For me, that's part of the caching experience. Of course, I realize others may disagree and respect their opinions as I hope they do mine.

[+admo1972]

What you describe here is a very typical Multi cache, not a Puzzle.

 

This is true. It is the offset variation of a multi, not a puzzle. I still have a problem with the logic of it, though. I think of a true multi being an extension of a traditional. Go to the posted coordinates and get coordinates for the next leg (or a portion of the final).

 

I think of puzzle caches to be those where the posted coordinates don't bring you to the cache.

 

Basically, my logic goes like this: If you only have coordinates to the first stage and no other information, can you get to the final? If yes, it's a multi. If no, it's a puzzle. But, this is not the Groundspeak logic. Good thing I have all my area caches in my PDA. If I was simply storing waypoints in my GPSr, I'd be out of luck on a lot of multi-s.

[+gpsfun]

Sorry, I don't think I agree at all, if I understand you correctly. Finding a plaque and obtaining numbers to a next stage makes it an offset, a form of a multi, not a puzzle or mystery cache.

 

From the Hide/Seek a Cache guidelines page, under the heading Multi-Caches:

"Offset caches are a variation on multi-caches. They are listed as a multi-cache when selecting a cache type. They are not found by simply going to some coordinates and finding a cache there. With the offset cache the published coordinates could be of an existing historical monument, plaque, or even a benchmark that you would like to have your cache hunter visit. At this spot, the hunter looks for numbers or information already appearing on the marker or on some part of the marker or site (geocachers NEVER deface public or private property). The geocacher is then able to manipulate these numbers or information using instructions posted on the cache page to continue the hunt."

 

I would not want this changed to a puzzle/mystery designation because I want people to read the cache page, not just head out after downloading every new cache listing because they want to go paperless. For me, that's part of the caching experience. Of course, I realize others may disagree and respect their opinions as I hope they do mine.

I was about to post the same paragraph from the guidelines when I saw Teach2Learn's post above. The cache cited as an example (GC11N9K) is a legitimate multistage cache. It could also have been submitted as a mystery/puzzle cache.

[vtmtnman]

Some older caches are listed as traditional that should be either mystery or multi. When I started geocaching this was very common. You had to read the cache page . Paperless caching has turned us into zombies who blindly follow the arrow on the GPS without reading. Perhaps we need an attribute - Cache can/cannot be done without reading the cache page.

Yes

[+Cornerstone4]

If reading a plaque to get information and then doing a sum is a puzzle for you, maybe you should attend some sort of evening maths class XD

 

Uncalled for.

[+admo1972]

If reading a plaque to get information and then doing a sum is a puzzle for you, maybe you should attend some sort of evening maths class XD

 

Already solved GC119WF, thank you very much (it's in the same park as the other). Welcome to my ignore list, troll.

[+Teach2Learn]

Some older caches are listed as traditional that should be either mystery or multi. When I started geocaching this was very common. You had to read the cache page . Paperless caching has turned us into zombies who blindly follow the arrow on the GPS without reading. Perhaps we need an attribute - Cache can/cannot be done without reading the cache page.

Yes

I'm crazy enough to want to read every cache page before I find it. My favorites for seeking and hiding tend to be multis with medium to long hikes involved, but I know I may well be in the minority. I realize it's quicker and just as fun for many to find the park and grabs.

 

Because some cachers filter out puzzle caches (and multis too, though probably to a lesser extent), I like the current multi designation allowing for offset coordinates as long as there isn't too much "solving" involved that would make a cache a better fit for a puzzle/mystery designation. I don't expect tons of finds on my multi-caches, but I want the experiences to be enjoyable and memorable when people search for them, including the reading of the cache page descriptions. However, I realize many traditionals can also be successful in this respect and I enjoy them as well.

[+tozainamboku]

Basically, my logic goes like this: If you only have coordinates to the first stage and no other information, can you get to the final? If yes, it's a multi. If no, it's a puzzle. But, this is not the Groundspeak logic. Good thing I have all my area caches in my PDA. If I was simply storing waypoints in my GPSr, I'd be out of luck on a lot of multi-s.

The guidelines basically make any cache where there is something (either physical or virtual) to find at the posted coordinates that you need to use to find the final cache (or the next stage) a multi. The Unknown/Mystery type, however, is a catchall. So if a cacher wants to indicate there is a challeging puzzle to work or that multi might take several trips with some research done at home between the stages, she could use the Unknown/Mystery designation. The problem with your logic is that many cachers have the capability to solve puzzles in the field to get the next stage. Is doing simple arithemetic a puzzle? How about using your GPSr to project a waypoint? What about solving a sudoku puzzle? A common type of offset uses letterboxing type hints to guide you to the cache from the posted location. There are no hidden coordinates, though you'll have to use some information you find at the posted location to interpret the clues. Is this a puzzle?

[+AlmondEyes]

Basically, my logic goes like this: If you only have coordinates to the first stage and no other information, can you get to the final? If yes, it's a multi. If no, it's a puzzle. But, this is not the Groundspeak logic. Good thing I have all my area caches in my PDA. If I was simply storing waypoints in my GPSr, I'd be out of luck on a lot of multi-s.

 

This is my logic exactly. I'd never heard of an OffSet before today. I guess from now on I have to change the icon to the Multis that I download to something other than the treasure chest that is default in my GPS. That way I'll know I very well might be wasting my time unless I print out the info first. What a pain......

[+edscott]

If reading a plaque to get information and then doing a sum is a puzzle for you, maybe you should attend some sort of evening maths class XD

 

Uncalled for.

 

Perhaps the tone is a bit over the line, but the logic is right on. A simple math problem should not be considered a puzzle. I have a MULTI that requires some percentage calculation and a bit of adding and subtracting. It should not be a puzzle to anyone past 5th grade.

[+Miragee]

Basically, my logic goes like this: If you only have coordinates to the first stage and no other information, can you get to the final? If yes, it's a multi. If no, it's a puzzle. But, this is not the Groundspeak logic. Good thing I have all my area caches in my PDA. If I was simply storing waypoints in my GPSr, I'd be out of luck on a lot of multi-s.

 

This is my logic exactly. I'd never heard of an OffSet before today. I guess from now on I have to change the icon to the Multis that I download to something other than the treasure chest that is default in my GPS. That way I'll know I very well might be wasting my time unless I print out the info first. What a pain......

If you use a Program like GSAK to download your waypoints, you can have the Waypoint name tell you if the cache you see on your map, or in the list, is a Multi (M), or Virtual (V), or a Traditional (T).

 

I don't ever put Puzzle caches in my GPSr, until I have the Corrected Coordinates, but those also have a designation (Y) using GSAK's "Smart Name" codes.

[+admo1972]

A simple math problem should not be considered a puzzle. I have a MULTI that requires some percentage calculation and a bit of adding and subtracting. It should not be a puzzle to anyone past 5th grade.

 

Again, you are missing my point. I'm not talking about degrees of difficulty. What I am saying is that any cahce that REQUIRES the use of the cache page other than the posted coordinates, should be considered a puzzle. Again, consider heading out only with 1000 caches in your GPS. Those that are possible to be found should be traditional or multi, those that can not should be puzzle. Note I am saying should. It is clear what the actual definitions are for multis and puzzles are.

 

And again, it is a moot point for me. I have the caches in my Palm, so I could care less when I get to an offset. All I am saying is that I understand where the OP is coming from. And the OP's problem with encountering a plaque when a cache was expected, made me think of puzzle caches, where you know for a fact that the posted coordinates won't get you to a cache or any part of a cache.

[+CYBret]

If reading a plaque to get information and then doing a sum is a puzzle for you, maybe you should attend some sort of evening maths class XD

 

Uncalled for.

 

Perhaps the tone is a bit over the line, but the logic is right on. A simple math problem should not be considered a puzzle. I have a MULTI that requires some percentage calculation and a bit of adding and subtracting. It should not be a puzzle to anyone past 5th grade.

 

From the Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines:

 

Traditional Caches:

The coordinates listed on the traditional cache page are the exact location of the cache.

 

Mystery or Puzzle Caches

For many caches of this type, the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location.

 

It's a puzzle. It may not be a hard puzzle, but it's still a puzzle.

 

Oh, and from the Forum Guidelines:

Respect: Respect the guidelines for forum usage, and site usage. Respect Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, yourself, fellow community members, and guests on these boards. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they deserve the same respect.

 

Let's keep this a happy place.

 

Bret

[+Miragee]

A simple math problem should not be considered a puzzle. I have a MULTI that requires some percentage calculation and a bit of adding and subtracting. It should not be a puzzle to anyone past 5th grade.

Again, you are missing my point. I'm not talking about degrees of difficulty. What I am saying is that any cahce that REQUIRES the use of the cache page other than the posted coordinates, should be considered a puzzle.

<snip>

Multi caches always require the reading of the cache description, but they are not Puzzles caches. GSAK makes that distiction for me in my GPSr, so at a glance I can see if the cache is a Multi. If it is, I know I have to read the cache page to see what is required.

 

I enjoy Multi caches, but cannot figure out 99% of the Puzzle caches in this area. I filter out the Puzzle caches from my PQs, but I don't filter out the Multi caches because they can be very fun, challenging, and even educational.

[+Teach2Learn]

A simple math problem should not be considered a puzzle. I have a MULTI that requires some percentage calculation and a bit of adding and subtracting. It should not be a puzzle to anyone past 5th grade.

 

Again, you are missing my point. I'm not talking about degrees of difficulty. What I am saying is that any cahce that REQUIRES the use of the cache page other than the posted coordinates, should be considered a puzzle.

 

I'm not overlooking your opinion and respect it, but I agree with edscott. The degree of difficulty can make a difference in whether it should be considered a multi or puzzle. IMO, going paperless may be nice, but is not a primary goal for caching.

 

One puzzle cache I've hidden is part of a series that also contains multis. There's a difference. Reading and using the cache page in the field should not become a blanket guideline to list caches as puzzles.

 

edit: typo/clarification

Edited June 26, 2007 by Teach2Learn

[+Teach2Learn]

Mystery or Puzzle Caches

For many caches of this type, the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location.

 

It's a puzzle. It may not be a hard puzzle, but it's still a puzzle.

 

This may be true of a specific cache in question, but you're overlooking the offset description listed under the multi heading in the guidelines that gpsfun and I quoted earlier. It specifically states that a marker or plaque may serve as a beginning stage and require the cacher to obtain numbers/information leading to the next stage. An offset is not a puzzle

[+admo1972]

Multi caches always require the reading of the cache description

 

 

That's certainly not true. Granted, I've only done 4 multi's, but 3 of them could have been done without anything more than the coordinates to the first stage. The remaining multi was an offset similar to what the OP was/is complaining about, which would have required to print the cache page to get to the final.

[+Lotho]

If reading a plaque to get information and then doing a sum is a puzzle for you, maybe you should attend some sort of evening maths class XD

 

Already solved GC119WF, thank you very much (it's in the same park as the other). Welcome to my ignore list, troll.

Calm down you idiot, the thread poster has pmed me saying he didnt take offence in my post and that he knew it was just an offhand comment. Why dont you try and evening class in anger management? Oooh, i like this class referral business.

[+Miragee]

Multi caches always require the reading of the cache description

 

That's certainly not true. Granted, I've only done 4 multi's, but 3 of them could have been done without anything more than the coordinates to the first stage. The remaining multi was an offset similar to what the OP was/is complaining about, which would have required to print the cache page to get to the final.

Okay . . . some Multis don't require the reading of the cache page, like this eight-mile-long Multi-cache I did last week. However, it would sure be a good idea to read a Multi-cache page first to know what you are heading towards when you hit "Go To" on your GPSr. Otherwise how do you know what you are going to find there? How do you know how many waypoints to expect? How do you know you will have enough time to complete the Multi?

 

Many Multi-caches, including the very first one I ever did, take you to signs or markers where you have to figure out the coordinates from the instructions on the cache page.

[+tozainamboku]

Reading and using the cache page in the field should not become a blanket guideline to list caches as puzzles.

I fear we are moving in this direction. The most recent changes to the guidelines state

Caches with mandatory requirements in addition to signing the logbook should be listed as mystery caches.

This was clearly done to satisfy the people who complained that they found a cache and signed the log book but when they went to log online they found there was an additional logging requirement that they did not meet while in the field. The cache owner could delete thier found it log. So TPTB have said that these caches are mystery caches. Now we have people asking to change the definition of a multicache to one that can be done without reading the cache page. That means that each stage of a multi should be limited to have the coordinates for the next (or perhaps a container with instructions for finding the next stage). But you should not need to read the cache page to go look for a multi.

 

I don't feel any sympathy for someone who goes out to look for any cache without reading the cache page. And this is from someone that has done this himself. <off topic rant> More so now that my crummy PDA doesn't work half the time because of the cheap battery cover that is designed to hold the battery in place that breaks just from the pressure the battery puts on it and the flexing of the PDA in normal use. After replacing the cover once, I now have it being held together with Scotch tape which doesn't work very well.</off topic rant> The concept that paperless caches means there should be no need to read the cache page is silly. If you like the extra challenge of not having hints or descriptions or showing when the park is closed or bringing a TOTT the cache page tells you need to retrieve the cache, by all means enjoy that challenge. Don't complain if you get more DNFs this way.

[+admo1972]

Otherwise how do you know what you are going to find there?

You wouldn't. But that's no different than a traditional.

 

How do you know how many waypoints to expect?

You wouldn't. But that isn't always indicated in the cache page either.

 

How do you know you will have enough time to complete the Multi?

You won't. One multi I did was a 4 stage that I did over 4 days. Luckily, parking was only 5 minutes from work, so I did the stages during my lunch. I called it my multi-stage-multi-day cache

[+Teach2Learn]

...However, it would sure be a good idea to read a Multi-cache page first to know what you are heading towards when you hit "Go To" on your GPSr. Otherwise how do you know what you are going to find there? How do you know how many waypoints to expect? How do you know you will have enough time to complete the Multi?

Very true

 

Many Multi-caches, including the very first one I ever did, take you to signs or markers where you have to figure out the coordinates from the instructions on the cache page.

Yep, that's been my experience for multis, whether hiding or seeking. I would never consider those to be puzzles according to the offset/multi guidelines.

[Tahosa and Sons]

? caches according to our guidelines are listed as the "catch all" . When I started caching I believe they were listed as surprise caches, and now they are listed as puzzles or mystery. I own several of these kind of caches, one is actually a Virtual Cache, but somehow made it as a ? cache, and there has been no problems or questions on this cache, just some nice reviews on the logs.

 

And I wonder what is puzzling with these two caches: ??? Cache and ??? Cache. I have several multis that require you to go to a placque and do an algebraic word problem, but they are offset/multi caches. And many of my caches require the use of a compass which is puzzling to many cachers, so should I ask to have them changed to a puzzle cache because someone doesn't know how to use a compass. IMHO cachers should do their research and study the cache before one even leaves the comfort of their domicle.

[+briansnat]

GC11N9K is an example of a multi that I think should be considered a puzzle. The posted coordinates bring you to a plaque, to which you so some simple math to get the final.

 

I guess these kinds are in a bit of a grey zone. I'd lean towards puzzle.

 

This is an offset cache and would properly be listed as a multi.

[+StarBrand]

Wouldn't all of this be solved if we would all learn to take a moment and actually "read" the listing page??

 

Sounds more like a multi or offset to me - puzzle just doesn't seem right. Even so - nothing here to get upset about. So it is wrong - move on. Most are correct.

[+Teach2Learn]

Wouldn't all of this be solved if we would all learn to take a moment and actually "read" the listing page??

[+Cornerstone4]

If reading a plaque to get information and then doing a sum is a puzzle for you, maybe you should attend some sort of evening maths class XD

 

Uncalled for.

 

Perhaps the tone is a bit over the line, but the logic is right on. A simple math problem should not be considered a puzzle. I have a MULTI that requires some percentage calculation and a bit of adding and subtracting. It should not be a puzzle to anyone past 5th grade.

 

Maybe not a puzzle per-se, but the question mark does not mean it is a "Puzzle Cache". All it signifies is there is some "Unknown" involved...you can't get the cache just by visiting the numbers in the listing.

 

For instance, there is a new cache in our area. The cache is right on the numbers posted, but you need the combo to the lock on it. It is listed as an "Unknown" since you can't sign the log with just the numbers loaded from the listing.

[+admo1972]

Wouldn't all of this be solved if we would all learn to take a moment and actually "read" the listing page??

 

I couldn't agree more! And let me muse for a moment as to the origins of this. Way back when, there were just a few caches out there. One had to make a concerted effort to go and find one. Now that there are often hundreds of caches within 20 minutes of most peoples houses. This has a two-fold effect: 1) It makes people want to have as many cache finds as possible. 2) caching has become so much a part of our lives that we now have to work it into our routine. Out to the grocery store? Grab a cache. Barber in the next town? Grab a cache there. Because of this haphazard caching, consulting the cache page isn't always possible. Sure, you could have all the required info in your Palm or PocketPC (and this is truly the best way to go), but some people don't have the tech savy to do that, or the expences to support it.

 

So, the downside is that we cache differently now than in the past, but can run into the unfortunate situation that the OP ran into.

 

The ground speak distinction between puzzle and multi makes sense and logic. But so does the OPs wished to be able to distinguish caches that can be foun dsolely with the published coordinates and those that can't. That logic is just as valid, but just isn't the way the types are broken down.

[vtmtnman]

Wouldn't all of this be solved if we would all learn to take a moment and actually "read" the listing page??

Imagine that.

[+Miragee]

<snip>

 

Maybe not a puzzle per-se, but the question mark does not mean it is a "Puzzle Cache". All it signifies is there is some "Unknown" involved...you can't get the cache just by visiting the numbers in the listing.

 

For instance, there is a new cache in our area. The cache is right on the numbers posted, but you need the combo to the lock on it. It is listed as an "Unknown" since you can't sign the log with just the numbers loaded from the listing.

Is the combo given in the cache description? Or does the cacher have to figure out a Puzzle to get the combination? I found a Travel Bug Hotel with a combination lock. It was listed as a Traditional because the combination was clearly given in the cache description.

[+Cornerstone4]

<snip>

 

Maybe not a puzzle per-se, but the question mark does not mean it is a "Puzzle Cache". All it signifies is there is some "Unknown" involved...you can't get the cache just by visiting the numbers in the listing.

 

For instance, there is a new cache in our area. The cache is right on the numbers posted, but you need the combo to the lock on it. It is listed as an "Unknown" since you can't sign the log with just the numbers loaded from the listing.

Is the combo given in the cache description? Or does the cacher have to figure out a Puzzle to get the combination? I found a Travel Bug Hotel with a combination lock. It was listed as a Traditional because the combination was clearly given in the cache description.

 

The combo was given in the hint...but there was nothing to figure out. I asked Marko Ramius why it was a "Mystery" cache, and he said it was due to the new guidelines. If you can't log it without info from the page, then it can't be a traditional.

 

It's in Vista, you need to check it out next time you are in North County. There is a hawk's nest right by the cache with babies in it! It's called Orange Blossom.

[+Miragee]

Wouldn't all of this be solved if we would all learn to take a moment and actually "read" the listing page??

I couldn't agree more! <snip>

 

The ground speak distinction between puzzle and multi makes sense and logic. But so does the OPs wished to be able to distinguish caches that can be found solely with the published coordinates and those that can't. That logic is just as valid, but just isn't the way the types are broken down.

If the OP isn't going to print out cache pages, or make notes about them, they could just select to download only the Traditional caches when they do their search.

 

If a person is a Premium Member, they can chose to only get Traditional caches in their pocket queries. That would help the problem for people who don't want to read the cache pages.

 

However, it is still recommended to read the cache page to see if Parking Coordinates, or Park Hours, or other important instructions, or limitations, are posted there.

[+wildchld97]

Sorry, I don't think I agree at all, if I understand you correctly. Finding a plaque and obtaining numbers to a next stage makes it an offset, a form of a multi, not a puzzle or mystery cache.

 

From the Hide/Seek a Cache guidelines page, under the heading Multi-Caches:

"Offset caches are a variation on multi-caches. They are listed as a multi-cache when selecting a cache type. They are not found by simply going to some coordinates and finding a cache there. With the offset cache the published coordinates could be of an existing historical monument, plaque, or even a benchmark that you would like to have your cache hunter visit. At this spot, the hunter looks for numbers or information already appearing on the marker or on some part of the marker or site (geocachers NEVER deface public or private property). The geocacher is then able to manipulate these numbers or information using instructions posted on the cache page to continue the hunt."

 

I would not want this changed to a puzzle/mystery designation because I want people to read the cache page, not just head out after downloading every new cache listing because they want to go paperless. For me, that's part of the caching experience. Of course, I realize others may disagree and respect their opinions as I hope they do mine.

 

I agree. I have a cache that I have listed as a multi. Melting Pot

 

I tell you RIGHT UP FRONT on the cache page that the posted coordinates will take you to a veterens memorial where you will use that information to find the coordinates to the next stage. The next stage simply has a slip of paper with the coord's for the final.

 

The so-called "puzzle" is so easy that even a 3rd grader can solve it. I don't consider it any sort of a challenge...hence the reason I did not want it listed as a puzzle or mystery cache. My aim was also to get people to know something about our town and not just run strait into the woods for a tupperware container.

[+nikcap]

What you describe here is a very typical Multi cache, not a Puzzle.

 

This is true. It is the offset variation of a multi, not a puzzle. I still have a problem with the logic of it, though. I think of a true multi being an extension of a traditional. Go to the posted coordinates and get coordinates for the next leg (or a portion of the final).

 

I think of puzzle caches to be those where the posted coordinates don't bring you to the cache.

 

Basically, my logic goes like this: If you only have coordinates to the first stage and no other information, can you get to the final? If yes, it's a multi. If no, it's a puzzle. But, this is not the Groundspeak logic. Good thing I have all my area caches in my PDA. If I was simply storing waypoints in my GPSr, I'd be out of luck on a lot of multi-s.

 

I reality, any cache that is more then a container with a logbook is a variation of a traditional cache.

 

I feel it's a courtesy to your fellow cachers to list any cache that can't be found with only the coordinates as a Mystery/Puzzle/Surprise cache.

 

Based on some of the comments that I've read in the forums, some cache vehemently despise any type of question mark cache. I suspect that is why there is an argument regarding off-set caches being tagged with the ? icon.

 

What I find even more silly, is once a cache is published and found, the reviewers will not correct mis-labled cache types.

[+Miragee]

<snip>

 

I feel it's a courtesy to your fellow cachers to list any cache that can't be found with only the coordinates as a Mystery/Puzzle/Surprise cache.

 

Based on some of the comments that I've read in the forums, some cache vehemently despise any type of question mark cache. I suspect that is why there is an argument regarding off-set caches being tagged with the ? icon.

 

What I find even more silly, is once a cache is published and found, the reviewers will not correct mis-labled cache types.

A Multi cache is completely different from a Mystery/Puzzle cache. I don't understand why that is a hard concept to grasp . . .

 

If I walk to a plaque and get some numbers from it to put into my GPSr according to the instructions on the cache page and those new coordinates lead me to another plaque, or sign, or the final container, that is not a Puzzle. That is a Multi-cache. So is a cache where I walk to a place and get the actual coordinates of the next waypoint.

 

As for your comment about Reviewers not correcting mis-labled caches, that has not been my experience. Once, when I requested that a cache, listed as a Traditional,be changed to a Multi, especially since it required driving more than six miles, the Reveiwer changed it. I even requested that one of my caches, which had been listed as a Puzzle, be changed to a Multi, and it was.

[+AndrewRJ]

I have always found a simple way to think of it is like this.

 

1. Is the logbook at the coords (or confirmation info in the case of a virtual)? Yes? then its a Traditional

(the obvious exception is a puzzle where you need to solve to get the combo to open the lock but the cache is still at the coords)

 

2. If the logbook isn't at the coords, is there something at the coords? IE, a waypoint (virtual or not) plaque or sign that you get info off of to get to the next stage. Yes? then its a multi.

 

2a. If no (there is nothing at the coords, parking, a lake etc) then its a Puzzle as you have to get the coords somehow to find the final or the starting point. Stated another way, going to the coords does you no good since there is nothing there to find.

 

There are obviously a few exceptions to any system see the example in 1, or some older caches when an evil container or evil cammo were called unknowns, but for the vast majority these work very well with the listing guidelines.

 

Thanks to TotemLake for explaining this to me a few years ago when I was new. It has been straight forward since.

Edited June 28, 2007 by AndrewRJ

[+hydnsek]

I have always found a simple way to think of it is like this.

 

1. Is the logbook at the coords (or confirmation info in the case of a virtual)? Yes? then its a Traditional

(the obvious exception is a puzzle where you need to solve to get the combo to open the lock but the cache is still at the coords)

 

2. If the logbook isn't at the coords, is there something at the coords? IE, a waypoint (virtual or not) plaque or sign that you get info off of to get to the next stage. Yes? then its a multi.

 

2a. If no (there is nothing at the coords, parking, a lake etc) then its a Puzzle as you have to get the coords somehow to find the final or the starting point. Stated another way, going to the coords does you no good since there is nothing there to find.

 

There are obviously a few exceptions to any system see the example in 1, or some older caches when an evil container or evil cammo were called unknowns, but for the vast majority these work very well with the listing guidelines.

 

Thanks to TotemLake for explaining this to me a few years ago when I was new. It has been straight forward since.

Exactly the way I distinquish the cache types, as well. Nicely stated, AndrewRJ!