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A charter member claimed a FTF at a cache that, that cacher never located. The log that was posted "Claiming FTF! At ground zero with 2 gps' over alot of readings is a container with a slip of paper with my name. Without the LINKS WORKING!! to find out the rules, (their rules), and using $10.00 worth of gas and spending 1.5 hours looking under every leaf and stick on a acre of land and its not listed as a multi cache or puzzle so it SHOULD BE at the coordinates listed or close to them!"

 

We went to the area and found the cache after extending the search area. We were FTF for the cache having signed the log!

 

What is the proper protocol? Is it not finding the cache first, not just showing up and looking to claim a FTF?

Just confused as this is a charter memebr who is claiming this.

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Yep, you found it and SIGNED the log first so you are first to find. The risk people take in trying to be FTF is the coords may be off or something else might be wrong that keeps you from finding the cache. If you got credit for searching around the area your GPSr says then I would never have a DNF and my logs would read something like this, "Gave it an effort. Thanks for the cache. TNLN (Didn't)SL"

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He can claim a 'first to get close'. You claim the FTF.

As the old saying goes, close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear bombs!

 

His was clearly a DNF. Searching and not finding is a DNF.

Nobody likes a DNF, but I sure wouldn't claim a 'ghost' find just so I didn't have to claim a DNF.

 

I have found several that were 50 feet or more away from the listed coordinates, even though my GPS said I was within 7 to 10 feet on accuracy. Searching at only the listed coordinates is a formula for creating DNF's in my book.

 

I don't have that many finds to my name yet, but I have already learned that at some point when you are having troubles finding a cache, it's time to put the GPS in your pocket and use your 'geosense' to find it. GPS accuracy vaires from day to day and under different conditions. The stated accuracy on your GPS does not indicate how close you REALLY are to the coordinates. It only indicates how close your GPS THINKS IT IS to the coordinates.

Edited by Stargazer22
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I agree with the consensus that the phantom find was not a FTF (or even a F). The cacher in question is well-respected locally, which makes this action a surprise. Reading the log, it seems to me that he was fed up with a series of bad coordinates and this was his way to vent about it. I suspect in the absence of this frustration the phantom find doesn't get logged. Doesn't make it right but may explain the reasoning.

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Umm,it's not rocket science.

 

If your name is first on the log of the cache you're hunting...You're FTF.If it's not,you're not.

 

That's pretty sad thing to do,charter member,basic member,peperroni member,platnium member,galactic member,backwoods member,charter throbbing member,premium female member,rusty aluminum member,smurfy member,charred member,unleaded member,or whatever kind of member you fancy your bad self.

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Well, I've been first to DNF on at least one case... and my dnf influenced one person around here not to go out in the weather I did in my attempt. It was ftf'ed by someone else the next day. If you didn't sign that log first, then you didn't ftf it.. sorry, no go..

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Reading the log, it seems to me that he was fed up with a series of bad coordinates and this was his way to vent about it.

 

That's how I see it too!

 

Okay, so the person claiming FTF has just posted a note refusing to back down so I'm revising my opinion of his actions. Frustrated or not, that's just poor behavior. :ph34r:

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A charter member claimed a FTF at a cache that, that cacher never located. The log that was posted "Claiming FTF! At ground zero with 2 gps' over alot of readings is a container with a slip of paper with my name. Without the LINKS WORKING!! to find out the rules, (their rules), and using $10.00 worth of gas and spending 1.5 hours looking under every leaf and stick on a acre of land and its not listed as a multi cache or puzzle so it SHOULD BE at the coordinates listed or close to them!"

 

We went to the area and found the cache after extending the search area. We were FTF for the cache having signed the log!

 

What is the proper protocol? Is it not finding the cache first, not just showing up and looking to claim a FTF?

Just confused as this is a charter memebr who is claiming this.

 

You always have some bad apples in every bunch. Please don't let the actions of one taint your view of the rest of us. Then again they may have been having a bad day and they might go back and edit the log later once they cool down a bit.

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Some experienced cachers here made a 600' mistake on a cache they recently published. Two of our local FTF hounds made that long, 100-mile round trip to find that cache, along with several others in the series.

 

On the cache with the incorrect coordinates, they posted a DNF.

 

No way would they have put a piece of paper down at GZ for the coordinates and clain the FTF. That's just silly . . . :ph34r:

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I have known people who will hold the log book upside down and backwards and sign their name on the 'very first page' in order to claim a FTF, but of course it's really the last page and exactly half of all finders afterwards follow suit and sign the wrong end of the book.

But in these cases at least they were actually at the cache in question.

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Seems some people are fogetting this is a game of fun and FTF get nothing more than bragging rights. Gota be more laid back about them and not worry... I woke up one winter morning and found 2 new parking lot micro's. I was new and went for it. Got to the first one and found footprints in the snow leading to the light pole. Log is blank so I sign the FTF spot. Go to the second one and again sign the FTF log.

 

Go to log it a bit later that morning and find my first FTF has been claimed, seems the claimer's pen frooze and would not write. Remembering this for fun I did not contest it... I did see foot prints after all.

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Clear to me that you are FTF and the other guy should have logged a DNF. I agree with many others that he was probably beyond frustrated after 11 cache hunts with bad coordinates. I read the logs on about 6 of those NEFF caches, I feel bad for anyone that spent a lot of time driving up for what seems to be a poorly organized series of caches.

 

Frustration clearly warranted and understood, actions as a result clearly not. Maybe he counts to 10 and logs the DNF. Or maybe the cache owner gets around to doing the right thing and deleting the false find log.

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There's a deeper issue here. The cache in question is part of a series put out by the New England Forestry Foundation. They have set up a series of 20 caches in NEFF lands throughout the region for the 2007 NEFF Geocache Challenge. (This link, unlike the one on the cache page, works!)

From the website:

The tournament kicks off on June 16, 2007. This is the first day of NEFF's 3rd annual Community Forest Discovery Days, a series of educational outdoor educational events throughout New England.

How to Win:

  • Visit at least 1 cache, record the secret cache word on your tournament sheet and return it to NEFF by September 28th 2007 to receive a NEFF t-shirt and 1-year newsletter subscription.
  • Visit 5 of the 20 caches, record the secret cache words on your tournament sheet and return it to NEFF by September 28th 2007 to qualify to enter to win the Grand Prize: an Earthmate PN-20 handheld GPS unit!
  • The first three people to visit all 20 caches, record the secret cache words, figure out the 2007 NEFF Geocache Code and return your tournament sheet to NEFF to win the DeLorme Topo USA 6.0 mapping software, great for planning and recording geocache outings!

So, really, there is more at stake here than FTF bragging rights. If the FT(dn)F bogus loggers can figure out the "Code" without the one keyword they didn't get (which, in my puzzle-solving experience is probably very likely) they could cheat their way into winning a pretty cool prize.

 

I've dealt recently with NEFF in regards to cache placement. They have some very well written policies in regards to geocaching on their lands. I think we should give a big round of thanks to Lisa from NEFF for all she's done for geocaching! :angry:

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Did anyone else notice that this cache appears to be part of a challenge series?

I did.

 

Notwithstanding that a non-find is a non-find and cannot in any stretch of imagination be called a "FTF", perhaps the bogus logger does have a point in his apparent aggravation.

 

Indiana DNR has also done a series like this and a few of the park managers have put out a caches since which are not in the "series."

 

It is my observation that several of these caches have had bad coordinates.

 

Perhaps it is a common characteristic of people placing "series" caches that they do not take adequate care in obtaining coordinates? Hurry perhaps?

 

While the forums are a more proper place to "vent" on such things, it could well be that the cache page itself is the only place where the cache owner would be likely to read it if perhaps the frustrated non-finder had emailed the owner and got no response.

 

We get little of the "whole" picture.

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Maybe GC.com needs a new Log type: "Phantom find", where you are "pretty darn sure that you are where the cache 'should be', and by gosh, I went to the trouble, so it's a find".

 

:angry:

 

Theat should help eliminate the 'Toss out a film cannister that lands somewhere near the ammo can you cannot find" log.

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Maybe GC.com needs a new Log type: "Phantom find", where you are "pretty darn sure that you are where the cache 'should be', and by gosh, I went to the trouble, so it's a find".

 

:angry:

 

Theat should help eliminate the 'Toss out a film cannister that lands somewhere near the ammo can you cannot find" log.

 

:angry:

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:angry:

There's a deeper issue here. The cache in question is part of a series put out by the New England Forestry Foundation. They have set up a series of 20 caches in NEFF lands throughout the region for the 2007 NEFF Geocache Challenge. (This link, unlike the one on the cache page, works!)

From the website:

The tournament kicks off on June 16, 2007. This is the first day of NEFF's 3rd annual Community Forest Discovery Days, a series of educational outdoor educational events throughout New England.

How to Win:

  • Visit at least 1 cache, record the secret cache word on your tournament sheet and return it to NEFF by September 28th 2007 to receive a NEFF t-shirt and 1-year newsletter subscription.
  • Visit 5 of the 20 caches, record the secret cache words on your tournament sheet and return it to NEFF by September 28th 2007 to qualify to enter to win the Grand Prize: an Earthmate PN-20 handheld GPS unit!
  • The first three people to visit all 20 caches, record the secret cache words, figure out the 2007 NEFF Geocache Code and return your tournament sheet to NEFF to win the DeLorme Topo USA 6.0 mapping software, great for planning and recording geocache outings!

So, really, there is more at stake here than FTF bragging rights. If the FT(dn)F bogus loggers can figure out the "Code" without the one keyword they didn't get (which, in my puzzle-solving experience is probably very likely) they could cheat their way into winning a pretty cool prize.

 

I've dealt recently with NEFF in regards to cache placement. They have some very well written policies in regards to geocaching on their lands. I think we should give a big round of thanks to Lisa from NEFF for all she's done for geocaching! :angry:

 

Ya know, I can almost see this guys frustration, and he says the coords on 11 of the 13 caches were way off, and there are all sorts of DNF's, and even SBA's posted on some of them (until the coords can be corrected). I dunno, wrong Datum set on the GPS for NEFF? :angry::angry: But of course dropping the paper, and claiming FTF is way over the top. I also note this Charter member with over 1,000 finds has never set foot in these forums, so he's not the least bit familiar how heated the discussions can get on some of these topics. I'd cut him some slack. :blink:

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I dunno, wrong Datum set on the GPS for NEFF?

That's what I was thinking.

 

As for slack...nah.Have some integrity in your body and log the DNF.Or don't.I've never logged ALL of my DNF's.No shame in doing either one.But dropping a new container is something else all together.

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I see no problem with being frustrated and even ranting a bit on the page....but how on earth can you claim a find on a cache that you didn't find? You left a new cache there and that's a "find"? :angry:

 

I guess I should quit being puzzled by all of these new "games" out there. Smileys for everyone!!!! And nice of the owner to leave such an obviously bogus log.

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I see no problem with being frustrated and even ranting a bit on the page....but how on earth can you claim a find on a cache that you didn't find? You left a new cache there and that's a "find"? :angry:

 

I guess I should quit being puzzled by all of these new "games" out there. Smileys for everyone!!!! And nice of the owner to leave such an obviously bogus log.

 

I'm just sayin', the guy has never once posted to these forums, and probably never even looked at them, as the majority of accounts created have in fact never looked at them. Like for example, the overwhelming majority of people who log the annual Wisconsin geo campout attended 60 times have no clue there's even a controversy, and are just doing what everyone else does. :angry: So you know, a "monkey see, monkey do" sort of thing. He's probably been offered finds on caches by owners that he didn't actually find many times. Don't get me wrong, dropping a piece of paper at your zero and claiming FTF is probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, geocaching wise. :angry:

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And so many judge cachers by their find count :angry:

I've gotten into email sparing matches with two who have been members for about 6 months but who have racked up 4 or 5 times my amount of finds. One even told me to go find another hobby because obviously caching isn't for me. :angry: One of whom has blocked my email. (hint - never block email. gather it as evidence, especially when dealing with classic passive-aggressive tactics). I tried everything I could to be friendly to these two, but have just given up.

 

Guess being pregnant and then under doctor's orders to not do anything more strenuous than hold my baby means nothing to them. :angry:

 

One of them got FTF on two of my caches and took an "ftf prize" that I had left not for ftf but for the person who felt it call to them. Talk about greedy. The other cache, they had to ask me for a hint on how to find it when they were pratically stepping on it. I found out later that they are bad for demanding hints from everyone.

 

Yah, they might have about 50 or more FTFs compared to my 3, but I enjoy the sport as something enjoyable to do, not as a contest of speed. I take my kids caching so I often end up with a ton of DNFs. That doesn't mean I'm a worse cacher or shouldn't be playing the sport. Just a different type of cacher.

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