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To trespass or not to....that is the question!


Rockin Roddy
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I would look around, and go for it.

Around here, we are more worried about criminals (not you Crim),

and the Police might help us hunt for it.

 

Once we were in a bad part of town, in a closed park by 30 feet or so.

The Officer asked why we were in this bad part of town at night.

We explained that one of our friends hid something in the park, and we are supposed to find it.

The Officer said " You need new friends !"

 

edited spelling.

Edited by ventura_kids
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I just read the sign at the park that's across the street from my house. It has Dawn to dusk hours. Since it's the shortcut to walk to Night Stalkers house. Since my kids play there, since my dog runs through there when she hears a loud noise, I recon I'm going to be a lawbreaker.

 

Maybe I will take the law more seriously if they would fix my view of the park.

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Not that it changes my opinion about after hours caching, does anybody know of a park system that has outlawed geocaching due to cachers night caching?

 

no, but land managers sometimes get goofy over the weirdest things. once it goes bad, you rarely get it back.

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How come everyone ‘assumes’ they will be getting caught? That seems defeatist to me.
What i don't understand is how it makes it right if you don't get caught.

 

My belief system:

 

Black is black, white is white. Right is right, wrong is wrong. many times it is hard to tell which is which. Not getting caught, like not recognizing impropriety for what it is, does not change black to white or wrong to right.

 

Neither does changing its name. No matter how many times you say a lump of coal is white, it will still in reality be black.

 

Beliefs may vary... in at least that much, we are a free country.

Have you ever driven over the posted speed limit?

Glad you asked, sir.

 

Actually, i HAVE driven over the posted limit and in fact i used to do so deliberately.

 

last year I got a speeding ticket from an officer of the agency for whom i do most of my work. At that time i came to a cosmic revelation.

 

Mind you, I drove at a reasonable speed. My ticket was 79/70.

 

In the past, I liked to get to where i was going as quickly as reasonably possible in order to minimize the police radio down time so that officers would not get shot because their radios didn't work (don't ask- it's the mantra they always chant when their radios act up).

 

The revelation? Oh yes... you see, sir, I get paid by th HOUR. So I came to the realisation that the longer it takes me to get to the site, THE MORE I GET PAID. The real beauty of it is that THEY CAN"T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT because to ask me to break the law would be illegal, unethical and immoral.

 

The way i see it, I stand to make somewhere between $2000- $3000 per year additional overtime SIMPLY BY OBEYING THE SPEED LIMIT. i think you could call that's a WIN-WIN situation, no?

 

I know you intended your response to be smart ***, but you see, obeying the law ALWAYS has benefits.

 

To answer your REAL question, NO I am not perfect. I don't recall ever claiming to be. And I didn't direct my comments at any one nor make any personal attacks.

Actually, I wasn't trying to be a smartasterisk. I was simply trying to point out that your level of moral outrage was wildly exagerated. The fact that you attempt to retain this moral high ground while not admitting that you are actually wrong when you break the law amazes me.

 

[smartasterisk]Gosh. What if it got out that you were on the way to find a cache when you got a speeding ticket. That sure would be bad for the game. ;) [/smartasterisk]

Edited by sbell111
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OR, you COULD end up down town because Johnny Law needed one more bust to make quota

Quota? Do you have any clue how insulting that nonsense is to real cops?

I think you should run him in just out of principle. An added benefit is that it will help you meet your ...

 

Umm, nevermind.

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Whaaat? No quotas to be met? You're not from Lenawee (Anyway) County in MI! Our local LEOs are a flashback to the "Roscoe and Enus" days (Boss Hogg is the sheriff in this case though). And our State force is even worse! :unsure:<_<:o If you'd like any of the "horror" stories, give me a yell!

 

I meant no offense Clan, I didn't realize there were actually some places that DON'T have quotas!!

 

Hey, maybe that's why I'm so jittery about our trespasses around here...Johnny Law would rather shoot first and ask questions later here!

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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I hate the idea that a land manager or someone who doesn't know much about geocaching would come to the forums and stumble upon this thread. That trespassing is even an option would immediately turn me off to wanting to allow geocachers to use an area that i may control.

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This seems to be an exclusively US problem... to reassure those who might visit this side of the pond - don't worry too much about "trespass" here. Unless you can be shown to have caused damage, you can't face arrest for trespass. You're free to wander at will unless you cause damage or invade privacy.

 

If you climb over the gate to attempt a cache in a closed London park - well, you might have to explain your motives if someone spots you and calls the police. Simply because it's not obvious that your intentions are innocent, and London has a history of terrorist incidents over many decades.

 

Even in London, if there's merely a sign saying that the park is closed after a certain hour, I'd bet that virtually no-one would pay it any regard. There is such a park (Newstead, once home of Lord Byron) near my home town which has closing hours (you have to pay to get in) but also a public footpath allowing access at any time - I'd have no worries about using the footpath for access when the park is "closed", nor would I be bothered by seeing a police patrol.

 

There's a park near here (on the IOM) which charges for admission during the day, but locals use it to walk their dogs in the evening (you have to climb over the turnstile to get in!). No caches (yet) though...

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I hate the idea that a land manager or someone who doesn't know much about geocaching would come to the forums and stumble upon this thread. That trespassing is even an option would immediately turn me off to wanting to allow geocachers to use an area that i may control.
I doubt that it would shock any land manager to learn that people might enter the grounds at off hours.
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I hate the idea that a land manager or someone who doesn't know much about geocaching would come to the forums and stumble upon this thread. That trespassing is even an option would immediately turn me off to wanting to allow geocachers to use an area that i may control.
I doubt that it would shock any land manager to learn that people might enter the grounds at off hours.

 

I doubt any land manager would be shocked, but I don't doubt that it could give him a negative perception of this sport.

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I hate the idea that a land manager or someone who doesn't know much about geocaching would come to the forums and stumble upon this thread. That trespassing is even an option would immediately turn me off to wanting to allow geocachers to use an area that i may control.
I doubt that it would shock any land manager to learn that people might enter the grounds at off hours.

 

I doubt any land manager would be shocked, but I don't doubt that it could give him a negative perception of this sport.

Or of dog walking, short-cut taking, evening constitutionals, etc.

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What say you? Are FTFs a reason to break the law?

 

No, of course not. However, last night I was close to getting my car locked in a park. BTW, I was FTF on the cache in question.

 

I got to the park about 7:40 and expected a fairly quick find in a new neighborhood park. Actually, the cache was 0.4 miles away and I had to actually head farther away at first to get to the right path. Made the find at 8:25 and got back to the parking lot about 8:45. The local park volunteer was there calling out that she was about to close the gates. I actually got to talk to her about geocaching and she thought it was pretty interesting.

 

The cache.

 

Happy trails...

Edited by DudleyGrunt
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...On the other hand, what about asking the reviewer, when publishing the cache, to not allow it to release until the park opens? Is that possible? Then, the issue becomes semi-moot.

 

It would be nice if they had a "cache timer" for when you would like your listing published. Then the reviewer can do their job. Then the cache timer will automaticly publish when the right time is reached. No need for the reviewer to hang out by the computer...

That is a good idea...

That actually is a great idea! The submitter could give the Reviewer a desired date and time for the cache to 'go live', the Reviewer could review it, clear all issues and set a timer for the cache to publish.

 

If I am having an event I could submit the caches for it at will, the Reviewer could review them at their convenience, and they could all be set to publish at 9 a.m. the morning of the event.

 

Way cool.

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...On the other hand, what about asking the reviewer, when publishing the cache, to not allow it to release until the park opens? Is that possible? Then, the issue becomes semi-moot.

 

It would be nice if they had a "cache timer" for when you would like your listing published. Then the reviewer can do their job. Then the cache timer will automaticly publish when the right time is reached. No need for the reviewer to hang out by the computer...

That is a good idea...

That actually is a great idea! The submitter could give the Reviewer a desired date and time for the cache to 'go live', the Reviewer could review it, clear all issues and set a timer for the cache to publish.

 

If I am having an event I could submit the caches for it at will, the Reviewer could review them at their convenience, and they could all be set to publish at 9 a.m. the morning of the event.

 

Way cool.

The only problem with that plan is that other cachers wouldn't know that the spot was 'taken' until it is too late.

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I think the same thing would happen that occurs if you submit a cache too close to a Multi waypoint or a Puzzle cache. Even though the new caches haven't gone "live" yet, the Reviewer knows where they are and can tell the other cacher they have to move their cache. :rolleyes: He doesn't have to tell them why . . . :unsure:

 

If sucn a timer were implemented, and I think it is a great idea, it has to have a short time frame.

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I hate the idea that a land manager or someone who doesn't know much about geocaching would come to the forums and stumble upon this thread. That trespassing is even an option would immediately turn me off to wanting to allow geocachers to use an area that i may control.
I doubt that it would shock any land manager to learn that people might enter the grounds at off hours.

 

I doubt any land manager would be shocked, but I don't doubt that it could give him a negative perception of this sport.

I guess when i think of a geocacher i think of someone with a higher respect for things than the average person. Someone who would not want to damage anything. Someone who would want to follow the laws, leave no trace, CITO, that sort of thing.

 

Whatever all of us do, it affects geocaching. It may be small, but it does. Personally i do not want to affect things in a negative way. I think others feel the same. I also think some just dont care one way or another and will continue to do what they dadgum well please at all costs.

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I guess when i think of a geocacher i think of someone with a higher respect for things than the average person. Someone who would not want to damage anything. Someone who would want to follow the laws, leave no trace, CITO, that sort of thing. ...
[mythbusters]Well, there's your problem![/mythbusters]

 

In reality, geocachers are just normal, everyday, run of the mill, people.

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Posted park hours are a regulatory issue. It is not inherently evil to disobey them. The law makes this distinction, in fact, in the difference between malum in se and malum prohibitum ("wrong in itself" versus "wrong because prohibited"). Park hours are a good example of malum prohibitum. Thought experiment: If the park hours are 8am to 8pm today, and the town council changes them to 8am to 7pm tomorow, are you a bad person if you're in the park at 7:30pm tonight? Tomorrow night?

 

While an argument can be made that the authorities had good reasons for setting park hours (e.g., public safety, saving money on lighting or staffing, simplifying nighttime police patrols, etc.), the benefits aren't lost because the occasional dog-walker, short-cutter or Geocacher breaks the rule. General obedience is good enough; individual infractions don't cause any demonstrable harm.

 

The issue that rule-breakers who happen to be Geocachers will give authorities ammunition to prohibit Geocaching is a red herring. The real issue is that some cachers are willing to risk a ticket in order to be FTF and others are not. Those who are not are annoyed that what they see as their virtue prevents them from getting the FTF. They rationalize that those who don't behave as they do are "hurting the sport." This justification comes up again and again whenever someone sees behavior they dislike--they work out a mechanism by which it "hurts the sport" and call for additional sanctions. Face it, if authorities want to ban caching, there are plenty of justifications they can use (bomb-squad incidents, injured-hiker rescues, trail formation, etc.).

 

That said, I think that the honorable Geocacher who is caught after hours in a park should not offer Geocaching as his reason for being there. And the infraction ought to be left out of logs. If a cacher doesn't blab about being in the park after hours to the authorities or in a log, there can't be any harm to Geocaching, correct? The rest is between the cacher and his tolerance for the risk of a ticket.

 

Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache.

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What I REALLY think is what I've been saying all along Mule Ears, please don't assume you know what my thoughts are!

 

If you have any question as to what my thoughts are, read from the start!

 

AND...if you happen to get caught in the park after hours say with your caching bag, some TBs, your GPS and the print-out , it might be hard to deny what you were doing! And wouldn't it be a hoot if the LEOs happened upon you just as you grabbed the cache? Odds aren't favoring, but obeying the law means there is 100% chance it WON'T happen!

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Posted park hours are a regulatory issue. It is not inherently evil to disobey them. The law makes this distinction, in fact, in the difference between malum in se and malum prohibitum ("wrong in itself" versus "wrong because prohibited"). Park hours are a good example of malum prohibitum. Thought experiment: If the park hours are 8am to 8pm today, and the town council changes them to 8am to 7pm tomorow, are you a bad person if you're in the park at 7:30pm tonight? Tomorrow night?

 

While an argument can be made that the authorities had good reasons for setting park hours (e.g., public safety, saving money on lighting or staffing, simplifying nighttime police patrols, etc.), the benefits aren't lost because the occasional dog-walker, short-cutter or Geocacher breaks the rule. General obedience is good enough; individual infractions don't cause any demonstrable harm.

 

The issue that rule-breakers who happen to be Geocachers will give authorities ammunition to prohibit Geocaching is a red herring. The real issue is that some cachers are willing to risk a ticket in order to be FTF and others are not. Those who are not are annoyed that what they see as their virtue prevents them from getting the FTF. They rationalize that those who don't behave as they do are "hurting the sport." This justification comes up again and again whenever someone sees behavior they dislike--they work out a mechanism by which it "hurts the sport" and call for additional sanctions. Face it, if authorities want to ban caching, there are plenty of justifications they can use (bomb-squad incidents, injured-hiker rescues, trail formation, etc.).

 

That said, I think that the honorable Geocacher who is caught after hours in a park should not offer Geocaching as his reason for being there. And the infraction ought to be left out of logs. If a cacher doesn't blab about being in the park after hours to the authorities or in a log, there can't be any harm to Geocaching, correct? The rest is between the cacher and his tolerance for the risk of a ticket.

 

Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache.

 

wow. i'm staggered.

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Mule Ears - Great post. What really amazes me is that it I understand it and it makes sense.

 

RR - Mule Ears was not trying to tell you what you think. He was just sharing his thoughts on WHY you were thinking what you were.

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And again, please don't assume you know what I'm thinking or why. As I said, if you wonder as to what I think or why read from the start!

 

Those that would break the law to find a cache, ANY cache, is dead wrong and a black eye to our sport! Period!

 

:rolleyes: I'm in yer head Rockin Roddy :unsure:

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That said, I think that the honorable Geocacher who is caught after hours in a park should not offer Geocaching as his reason for being there. And the infraction ought to be left out of logs. If a cacher doesn't blab about being in the park after hours to the authorities or in a log, there can't be any harm to Geocaching, correct? The rest is between the cacher and his tolerance for the risk of a ticket.

 

Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache.

 

Seems a bit deceitful, perhaps, but a very good idea!

 

So, I was involved in a fender bender in a parking lot yesterday morning. I was pulling into a parking spot when someone hit me behind the gas cap. (Should satisfy the insurance company. I hate insurance points!)

So, I'm looking for a piece of paper to write down the other driver's info, before going into the store to call the cops. So, I grab the printout for benchmark KV6823, and write the info on the back. Officer arrives, and tells me: You don't need to write down his info, it'll be on the police report (which you can pick up on Thursday). Give that back to him. Other driver says: It's got a map. Maybe he needs it. Officer strikes me as being a bit surly (?) (Hey, with his last name, he should know who I am!) Officer: Where are you going? Me: To work. Officer: You need a map to go to work? (No need to mention the other sarcasm uttered by the officer in question.)

I agree. Best to leave geocaching out of it.

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Sounds like we're hearing from more that would be happy to break the law for a cache! Must make you all proud! What's next? Breaking and entering for gas after hours? How about knocking the doors down for some after hours fast food? Sure, if you don't get caught, you didn't really break the law...did you?

 

Way to rationalize your willingness to break a law just for a cache!

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sanity? are we now equating sanity with amoral tripe?

edit: well, that's my problem, then. if i was sane, maybe i'd have fewer morals.

 

Don't want to be harsh here, because I believe you're sincere. But the concepts I outlined, the ones that draw a distinction between what's fundamentally wrong and what's merely against the rules, that "amoral tripe" constitutes important foundational principles of our tradition of law. It helps protect us from some of the excesses of less-advanced legal systems that subject people to imprisonment, death or mutilation for violating the edict-of-the-day of some authority.

 

Equating an administrative rule such as the time of a park closure with morality trivializes morality and invites tyranny. I realize that's rather dramatically stated, but there it is. And I understand the desire not to see people benefit from rule-breaking, but a little perspective is called for.

 

Heck, if this is an important issue, there's an easy bit of direct action anyone can take: Next time a park cache is published in the evening, call the police and tell them you have a inside info that there will be multiple violations of the park-closure time that night. If it's an enforcement priority, they'll roll.

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sanity? are we now equating sanity with amoral tripe?

edit: well, that's my problem, then. if i was sane, maybe i'd have fewer morals.

 

Don't want to be harsh here, because I believe you're sincere. But the concepts I outlined, the ones that draw a distinction between what's fundamentally wrong and what's merely against the rules, that "amoral tripe" constitutes important foundational principles of our tradition of law. It helps protect us from some of the excesses of less-advanced legal systems that subject people to imprisonment, death or mutilation for violating the edict-of-the-day of some authority.

 

Equating an administrative rule such as the time of a park closure with morality trivializes morality and invites tyranny. I realize that's rather dramatically stated, but there it is. And I understand the desire not to see people benefit from rule-breaking, but a little perspective is called for.

 

Heck, if this is an important issue, there's an easy bit of direct action anyone can take: Next time a park cache is published in the evening, call the police and tell them you have a inside info that there will be multiple violations of the park-closure time that night. If it's an enforcement priority, they'll roll.

 

I gotta say, that's a pretty logical argument. That post provides a different twist to this debate.

 

What I've said still holds true for me- I won't hunt for caches in closed parks. But I was wondering why I couldn't get as worked up about this as others. The bold parts up there may be the distinction for me.

Edited by Googling Hrpty Hrrs
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Why Criminal, you law breakers going to ruin this sport and we're going to need a new one soon?

 

No perspective will lead me to believe it's fine to break the law for a game...rationalize as you feel you must, but breaking the law IS breaking the law (admin rule? Really?? I seem to remember seeing the law stated right on the signs at most parks...starts with P.A.)! If you feel you are so d@mned right, call the law and tell them you'll be in the park after hours yourself! Just stay away from caches while doing it!

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The issue that rule-breakers who happen to be Geocachers will give authorities ammunition to prohibit Geocaching is a red herring. The real issue is that some cachers are willing to risk a ticket in order to be FTF and others are not. Those who are not are annoyed that what they see as their virtue prevents them from getting the FTF. They rationalize that those who don't behave as they do are "hurting the sport." This justification comes up again and again whenever someone sees behavior they dislike--they work out a mechanism by which it "hurts the sport" and call for additional sanctions. Face it, if authorities want to ban caching, there are plenty of justifications they can use (bomb-squad incidents, injured-hiker rescues, trail formation, etc.).

 

What words can I use to address this? How about nonsense? Maybe rubbish or poppycock. Wait, I know. Codswallop!. The image of the sport is a very real issue. Man, I'm glad you aren't a geocacher.

 

Hey, I'm no moral goody twoshoes. I despise all these stupid little laws and regulations ("Any fool can make a rule and every fool will mind it" - H. D. Thoreau) and break them all the time. Speed limits? I know what speed is safe for me and sometimes it doesn't jib with what is posted (they were often determined in a time before radial tires, disc brakes, crumple zones, etc...), No camping? If its a nice spot and I won't hurt anything and because I clean up after myself, I go for it. etc... But when I get caught, I'm the one who takes the fall. If I'm nabbed speeding, they aren't going to ban driving.

 

But where do these stupid little laws and regulations come from? They are often overreactions that come from the pens of small minded bureaucrats and politicians, but they usually stem from the actions of a few who ruined it for the rest.

 

Where I draw the line is where my actions can affect others. We saw in SC how some people can take the actions of a few and use them to paint an entire group.

Edited by briansnat
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Sounds like we're hearing from more that would be happy to break the law for a cache! Must make you all proud! What's next? Breaking and entering for gas after hours?
I wouldn't bother. I'm not sure that I would be able to figure out how to turn the pumps on. Besides, most of the local stations are 24/7.
How about knocking the doors down for some after hours fast food?
While that sounds like a good idea at first blush, I think that the time that it would take to get the friers up to speed would make it counterproductive. Also, I'd have to figure out how to use the shake machine. That's way too big of a hassle.
Sure, if you don't get caught, you didn't really break the law...did you?

 

Way to rationalize your willingness to break a law just for a cache!

As far as I can tell, almost no one has seriously suggested that it's a good idea to break the law. However, I'm not going to get stressed out if someone attempts a cache in a park after hours. I don't see a few infractions of this nature being harmful to the overall game. I know that you disagree with me and that is certainly your right.

 

BTW, nice posts, Mule Ears.

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The issue that rule-breakers who happen to be Geocachers will give authorities ammunition to prohibit Geocaching is a red herring. The real issue is that some cachers are willing to risk a ticket in order to be FTF and others are not. Those who are not are annoyed that what they see as their virtue prevents them from getting the FTF. They rationalize that those who don't behave as they do are "hurting the sport." This justification comes up again and again whenever someone sees behavior they dislike--they work out a mechanism by which it "hurts the sport" and call for additional sanctions. Face it, if authorities want to ban caching, there are plenty of justifications they can use (bomb-squad incidents, injured-hiker rescues, trail formation, etc.).
What words can I use to address this? How about nonsense? Maybe rubbish or poppycock. Wait, I know. Codswallop!. The image of the sport is a very real issue. Man, I'm glad you aren't a geocacher.

 

Wait, you are. dadgum!

 

Hey, I'm no moral goody twoshoes. I despise all these stupid little laws and regulations and break them all the time. Speed limits? I know what is safe for me and sometimes it doesn't jib with what is posted (they were often developed in a time before radial tires, disc brakes, crumple zones, etc...), No camping? If its a nice spot and I won't hurt anything and because I clean up after myself, I go for it. etc... But when I get caught, I'm the one who takes the fall. If I'm nabbed speeding, they aren't going to ban driving.

 

Where I draw the line is where my actions can affect others. We saw in SC how some people can take the actions of a few and use them to paint an entire group.

Actually, what we saw is some people making up actions of no one and using those to try to paint an entire group.

 

The real issue that I have with your post is that it kinda says that it's OK for you to break rules, but others doing the same is 'bad for the sport game'.

 

If you are speeding going to look for a cache, is that bad for the game? If you are camping during an overnight cache spree, is that bad for the game? Why do you think those are any different than if you were to enter a park for twenty minutes after hours? After all, by your definitions, if you do no harm, it's OK.

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The real issue that I have with your post is that it kinda says that it's OK for you to break rules, but others doing the same is 'bad for the sport game'.

 

If you are speeding going to look for a cache, is that bad for the game? If you are camping during an overnight cache spree, is that bad for the game? Why do you think those are any different than if you were to enter a park for twenty minutes after hours? After all, by your definitions, if you do no harm, it's OK.

 

:drama::signalviolin::mmraspberry:

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Since the mantra is that violating park rules to snag a cache endangers caching's public relations (PR) with park officials, let's look at this another way: How much harm did this thread do?

 

If the original inicident had gone unremarked, no PR damage to Geocaching would have occurred. A tree fell in the forest. For there to have been PR damage, the cacher would have to have been caught, given up Geocaching, created enough trouble to have generated a police report, that report would have had to end up on the desk of an interested park official, who would have had to read it, process what he read, and be sufficiently concerned to act upon it. Whew.

 

Instead, what apparently happened is that indignant Geocachers raised a stir on two Internet forums, one local and one national. The threads generated a lot of debate, some recounting of other incidents, some accusations of a criminal mindset among dissenters, and one boring Civics lesson.

 

Now this nonissue is available to any park official anywhere who might be actively looking for a reason to decline permission for a park Geocache. Not that he has to expend the effort; he can simply say "no" and the passivity of Geocachers will do the job for him.

 

This thread, and particularly the overheated statements of the the outraged, has done/will do vastly more harm to their supposed cause than the original incident.

 

The rebuttal that if no one ever broke park rules we wouldn't have this problem is invalid. No rule or law has ever driven the incidence of the prohibited act to zero (unless the act was impossible to begin with). But this kind of discussion can make a single incident seem like an epidemic. Therefore, this discussion causes vastly more harm than it prevents. This is one of the reasons that I suspect the outrage is over something other than Geocaching's image with park officials. If image were the issue, those concerned would logically want to hush things up, not broadcast them.

Edited by Mule Ears
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