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How do you define DNF's


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Ok, I know there will be some wiseguys out there that will say "DNF means did not find", whatever...

 

Do you define DNF as I not find the geocache after looking in the exact (or close to it) area?

 

Do you broaden it to mean DNF because there were people sitting on the bench where the geocache was hidden and you did not have time to wait them out? The road was washed out to the area of the geocache so that is a DNF? The city park where the geocache is located was being used for a wedding?

 

I could not get to geocache today because its located in a public golf course and there was a local tournament of sorts there. I was maybe 200 ft from the cache area and could not begin a search.

 

I am not logging that as a DNF? Would you?

 

What do you do?

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I would log that as a "Note." I only log a DNF if I actually get to the cache location and commence searching, or attempt to start searching.

 

Sometimes my DNF might say something like, "Well, I started the hunt but then muggles came and I didn't have time to wait them out, so maybe this should have been a 'Note' instead."

 

That way the cache owner knows the cache is likely there, I just didn't get to search diligently.

 

Edit for spelling that looked like really bad grammar . . . :anitongue:

Edited by Miragee
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Ok, I know there will be some wiseguys out there that will say "DNF means did not find", whatever...

 

Do you define DNF as I not find the geocache after looking in the exact (or close to it) area?

 

Do you broaden it to mean DNF because there were people sitting on the bench where the geocache was hidden and you did not have time to wait them out? The road was washed out to the area of the geocache so that is a DNF? The city park where the geocache is located was being used for a wedding?

 

I could not get to geocache today because its located in a public golf course and there was a local tournament of sorts there. I was maybe 200 ft from the cache area and could not begin a search.

 

I am not logging that as a DNF? Would you?

 

What do you do?

I wouldn't log that as a DNF because you never searched for the cache.
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I say it's a DNF - you started the search, you just couldn't get close enough. Would that be any different than coming at a cache from the wrong direction and can't reach it because of a river or cliff?

 

I've never thought a DNF log is ALWAYS a flag that the cache might be missing/in trouble. The CONTENT of the log will tell you that. Why would a owner get concerned with a DNF log like "I was a couple of hundred feet from the cache when a hail storm caught me and I made a mad dash back to the car. I'll try again later."

 

I've also logged DNF's on caches with bad co-ords. The cache page says "mtn bike park", the GPSr is pointing to a backyard. I obviously didn't get anywhere close to the cache location, so I should post a note? Not in my book, it's a DNF.

 

A few months ago I was in an accident on the way to a cache, I logged it as a DNF - I had started "the hunt" and was unable to complete it.

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Set out for the cache, never got there to look. = Note only if the reason I didn't get there is worth the story.

Looked for the cache but had to quit before I had exausted the places to look. = Note. The cache didn't get the best of me, the muggle, weather, or something else did.

Looked until I gave up. = DNF.

 

For your specific question, I'd probably log nothing. Since I didn't even get to look. Two exceptions. If it needed a note. "A golfe was rummaging through a box that looked a lot like a cache". Or it was a drunk mime troupe playing golf.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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I'm sure there's at least a dozen different ways people look at DNF, but my method is that if I searched and didn't find it, then it's a DNF. If bystanders stopped me from getting close, if I even log anything I post it as a note, since I didn't get a chance to search. In my opinion... you can't not find if you never searched to begin with :anitongue:

 

EDIT: Additional note... if I'm already searching, but bystanders wander along and basically force me to abandon my search... THAT I consider a DNF.

Edited by Kabuthunk
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Set out for the cache, never got there to look. = Note only if the reason I didn't get there is worth the story.

Looked for the cache but had to quit before I had exausted the places to look. = Note. The cache didn't get the best of me, the muggle, weather, or something else did.

Looked until I gave up. = DNF.

 

For your specific question, I'd probably log nothing. Since I didn't even get to look. Two exceptions. If it needed a note. "A golfe was rummaging through a box that looked a lot like a cache". Or it was a drunk mime troupe playing golf.

This is exactly how I do it. I'm glad you wrote it. I would never bother logging a cache that I didn't attempt. What's the point? Plus I only log DNFs when I get stumped and give up. Either you got me or the cache is missing. Then I will watch the cache to see which one it was. :anitongue:
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My definition of a DNF is that I set out to search for the cache and didn't find it. I'm not being a wise guy.

The reason is irrelevant. There was someone sitting on the bench? DNF. It was missing? DNF. The batteries died on my GPS? DNF. Coundn't find a place to park? DNF. I was just too stupid to find it. DNF.

 

If I put the coordinates into my GPS, hit go to and end up without signing the logbook, its a DNF in my book.

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My definition of a DNF is that I set out to search for the cache and didn't find it. I'm not being a wise guy.

The reason is irrelevant. There was someone sitting on the bench? DNF. It was missing? DNF. The batteries died on my GPS? DNF. Coundn't find a place to park? DNF. I was just too stupid to find it. DNF.

 

If I put the coordinates into my GPS, hit go to and end up without signing the logbook, its a DNF in my book.

To me "didn't find" assumes that you made a good attempt to try to find the cache. I guess that's the way I've always done it. What would you log if you get to the cache site and discover that it's an LPC. You roll your eyes and walk away. Would log that as a DNF? I hit the ignore button on those...
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My definition of a DNF is that I set out to search for the cache and didn't find it. I'm not being a wise guy.

The reason is irrelevant. There was someone sitting on the bench? DNF. It was missing? DNF. The batteries died on my GPS? DNF. Coundn't find a place to park? DNF. I was just too stupid to find it. DNF.

 

If I put the coordinates into my GPS, hit go to and end up without signing the logbook, its a DNF in my book.

To me "didn't find" assumes that you made a good attempt to try to find the cache. I guess that's the way I've always done it. What would you log if you get to the cache site and discover that it's an LPC. You roll your eyes and walk away. Would log that as a DNF? I hit the ignore button on those...

 

I agree with Briansnat on this one. If i begin my search, that means punching "goto" and starting towards the cache, then i either find it or i don't. Doesn't matter why i couldn't complete my mission, it's a DNF if i don't find the cache!

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I log a DNF if I made a pretty good effort to find a cache without success. The point of logging a DNF is to alert the owner the cache may be missing. If one person (especially me :anitongue: ) posts a DNF, it may not mean anything. But if three or four people in a row post them, it may mean the cache has been muggled.

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I log a DNF if I made a pretty good effort to find a cache without success. The point of logging a DNF is to alert the owner the cache may be missing. If one person (especially me :anitongue: ) posts a DNF, it may not mean anything. But if three or four people in a row post them, it may mean the cache has been muggled.
If everyone did this DNFs would provide useful info. I guess if people see me DNF their cache they know there's a pretty good chance that it might be missing. Maybe we need another log: DNFART = Did not find and really tried.
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To me a DNF means I failed to sign the log . . . whatever resason, no matter - no log no find. I have seen them, couldn't reach them and could not sign = DNF.

 

It happened tonight on the grandstand at a ball game . . . big-big fat lady was sitting right over the target & her even bigger boyfriend sat next to her = DNF and my life continued! :anitongue:

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What do you do?

I'd probably log a DNF if I logged anything.

 

My personal definition is if I started the hunt, and it doesn't matter how far along I am, if I'm thwarted for any reason that has to do with the hunt, I'll log a DNF. It could be a hornet's nest near the cache, a posted sign, washed out road, muggles, or anything along those lines.

 

If I call off a hunt because of something other than something with the hunt, like got a phone call, got a flat tire, got hungry and never returned, started raining, if I log anything it would be a note.

 

I think the major difference between the two is one is conditions in that area while the other isn't.

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<snip> What would you log if you get to the cache site and discover that it's an LPC. You roll your eyes and walk away. Would log that as a DNF? I hit the ignore button on those...

 

LPC? :anitongue:

 

Translation please (assuming it is family-friendly). :P

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....My personal definition is if I started the hunt, and it doesn't matter how far along I am, if I'm thwarted for any reason that has to do with the hunt, I'll log a DNF. It could be a hornet's nest near the cache, a posted sign, washed out road, muggles, or anything along those lines.

 

If I call off a hunt because of something other than something with the hunt, like got a phone call, got a flat tire, got hungry and never returned, started raining, if I log anything it would be a note.

 

I think the major difference between the two is one is conditions in that area while the other isn't.

 

Good angle. I was strugling with how to descrbe when I'd log something and when I wouldn't but you hit it.

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<snip> What would you log if you get to the cache site and discover that it's an LPC. You roll your eyes and walk away. Would log that as a DNF? I hit the ignore button on those...

 

LPC? :anitongue:

 

Translation please (assuming it is family-friendly). :P

 

Sorry - should have tried geolex first - Lamp Post Cache - mercifully rare in Oz. B)

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If I went looking and got in the general area of the cache, no matter what forced me away - then it is a DNF log. Muggles, weather, poor hunt skills, crying kids or missing container, If I got there to look and didn't walk away with a find then it is a DNF.

 

 

Genral area changes depending on the situation, a few hundred feet in town maybe, several miles for a rural cache location. Point is, I went to look and couldn't or didn't find. I log a DNF.

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<snip> What would you log if you get to the cache site and discover that it's an LPC. You roll your eyes and walk away. Would log that as a DNF? I hit the ignore button on those...

 

LPC? :P

 

Translation please (assuming it is family-friendly). B)

 

Sorry - should have tried geolex first - Lamp Post Cache - mercifully rare in Oz. B)

:anitongue:
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I log a DNF if I made a pretty good effort to find a cache without success. The point of logging a DNF is to alert the owner the cache may be missing. If one person (especially me :anitongue: ) posts a DNF, it may not mean anything. But if three or four people in a row post them, it may mean the cache has been muggled.

Sorry, but I vehemently disagree! A DNF is simple a Did Not Find log - the CONTENT may indicate a problem - but the fact that a DNF was logged just means that person did not find it. A series of DNF's may indicate a problem - whether it's with the cache or the hunters, again, CONTENT will say. I have a very difficult cache, so a series of DNF's doesn't always make me check it, but the one DNF that described the hunt well enough had me there the next day.

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Yep - I would log a DNF if a muggle was sitting near a cache and I couldn't get to it. If enough of those DNF's are posted it might encourage the cache owner to move the cache or let the next cacher know that this cache is a pain to get to and to simply move on...

I agree with Green Bay Paddlers. Obviously, if I honestly look and can't find it I'll post a DNF so the owner will have that information. But I also post a DNF if anything about the cache or it's location kept me from finding the cache and my log could be useful to the next cacher or the owner.

 

If a daycare group picnics there every day from 11 to noon, then my log will help the next person to know not to go there during those hours. If there is construction blocking the cache right now, they may want to wait a couple of weeks to look. You saw a tournament and that kept you from searching--if you posted that right away, someone else might see it and go later in the evening, or wait until the tournament is over (especially if you were able to learn whether it was a one day thing, a three day event, or a regularly scheduled weekly event).

 

I might or might not post a DNF over the weather or some other one-time reason. If no one had been there in weeks, I might post one, just to let the owner know that someone was still interested in finding the cache.

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I log a DNF if I made a pretty good effort to find a cache without success. The point of logging a DNF is to alert the owner the cache may be missing. If one person (especially me :P ) posts a DNF, it may not mean anything. But if three or four people in a row post them, it may mean the cache has been muggled.

Sorry, but I vehemently disagree! A DNF is simple a Did Not Find log - the CONTENT may indicate a problem - but the fact that a DNF was logged just means that person did not find it. A series of DNF's may indicate a problem - whether it's with the cache or the hunters, again, CONTENT will say. I have a very difficult cache, so a series of DNF's doesn't always make me check it, but the one DNF that described the hunt well enough had me there the next day.

In order to not find something you have to try to find it. Trying to find it doesn't mean checking to see if there is a muggle sitting on a park bench near the cache and then deciding not to try to look for it. Trying to find a cache means that you have looked under the bench and all around the area and you "did not find" the cache. IMHO, I think a lot of you are stretching the concept of not finding a cache. Finding and not finding are identical except that not finding is missing the very last part, which is discovering the location of the cache and signing the logbook to prove you found the cache. They both involve a full scale search and the only difference is the end result.

 

What if I told you that I didn't find any money on the floor of the bank today. Then you asked me when I was at the the bank and I replied that I never went to the bank. That's what some of you are saying and it sounds silly to me. :anitongue:

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The point of logging a DNF is to alert the owner the cache may be missing.

 

I've heard this before and I have no idea where this came from. The point of logging a DNF is to document the result of your cache hunt. Could it mean the cache is missing? Sure. It could also mean a number of other things.

 

In order to not find something you have to try to find it. Trying to find it doesn't mean checking to see if there is a muggle sitting on a park bench near the cache and then deciding not to try to look for it. Trying to find a cache means that you have looked under the bench and all around the area and you "did not find" the cache. IMHO, I think a lot of you are stretching the concept of not finding a cache. Finding and not finding are identical except that not finding is missing the very last part, which is discovering the location of the cache and signing the logbook to prove you found the cache. They both involve a full scale search and the only difference is the end result.

What if I told you that I didn't find any money on the floor of the bank today. Then you asked me when I was at the the bank and I replied that I never went to the bank. That's what some of you are saying and it sounds silly to me.

 

If I plug in the coordinates and hit go to on my GPS that means I'm attempting to find the cache. The journey to the cache is as much a part of the hunt as the physical search.

 

Your bank analogy falls short. Geccaching is not the serendipitous finding of something. The minute you plug in the coordinates and hit go to, you have a goal.

 

If I went to the bank to get money out and didn't get the money, the reason is not material. It doesn't matter if the bank was closed, they were out of money, a robbery was in progress or my car broke down. When the landlord asks me for the money, I don't have it. If there was a website where I logged the results of my bank visits my log would be, "Didn't get the money".

Edited by briansnat
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I think I make my distinction in the difference DNF and note based on the information I'm telling not just the owner but my fellow cacher, as well. With my definition, the purple face of a DNF tells others that I failed to find the cache for a reason related to the hunt. It could be a minor problem like muggles or it could be serious where I hunted ground zero for two hours on a 1/1.

 

Further, if someone sees a series of purple faces and they knew the reason those were there was because of something about the hunt then they'd know they'd likely not be successful. But OTOH, if the definition includes things external to the hunt then the purple faces really tells them nothing until they open the log and read it. The last four purple faces could very well be one where the kids started throwing a fit, one guy had a flat tire, another was called into work, and the last didn't like caching night. None of these would affect the next guy at all.

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If I look for it, and it isn't there, I claim my smilie. After all, I looked for it, didn't I? (just kidding)

 

My policy is to claim a DNF if I tried to find the cache, but didn't. I don't agree with Briansnat (say it ain't so!) about plugging coords into my GPSr as the determiner of the beginning of the hunt sequence, though; rather, it's when I make an attempt to find the cache that precipitates a DNF. For instance, I had planned to do a roadside cache on a highway in Kentucky, but as I drove by, roadwork precluded my stopping, That was a DNF. When my wife and I went on a short hike in a State Park recently, and I had put coordinates into the unit for a possible hunt, but did not try to find those caches, I didn't make any notation.

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If I didn't even start to look, how can I log a Did Not Find? Life happens when you make plans. If we had to veer off course on our way to the cache for some reason that didn't even have to do with the cache, no log would even be given.

 

Now, if there was something hindering my way to the cache. For this one it was a tournament, or say there was construction or maintenance going on at the site. Then I would write a note or needs maintenance to alert my fellow cachers and the owner.

 

If I made my way to ground zero and gave it an effort then that's when you see the DNF come out. When an actual search happens. Otherwise I think too many frowns muddys the logs and doesn't give a true picture of what is going on with the cache. IE, whether there is a problem with the actual cache or life just got in the way.

 

Muggle activity just heightens the stealth factor and may raise the difficulty level in my book. Then again, I come from a highly populated area where I have had to wait out muggles to actually search for caches.

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If I get out of my truck and begin the hunt I log a DNF.

Just yesterday I logged a note instead of a DNF. The cache was on the sidewalk outside a little coffee shop. It was a busy little tourist town.

I did a drive by and decided not to attempt at this time.

I logged the note to alert other cachers that Saturday afternoon is not the best time to visit the area for Caching, And let the owner know it was still a cool little town and a interesting area.

 

If I decided to attempt and got out of my vehicle and started my search, then noticed that I may be seen by the many muggles,and decided to stop my search,Then I would call it a DNF.

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Luckily, most of us agree that that it's good to post our DNFs if we actually get to the coordinates, make a search, and don't find the cache. Until a person gets to this point, there is no right or wrong way, which makes this an aspect of geocaching where everyone can pretty much decide how they want to play it. :anitongue:

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Luckily, most of us agree that that it's good to post our DNFs if we actually get to the coordinates, make a search, and don't find the cache. Until a person gets to this point, there is no right or wrong way, which makes this an aspect of geocaching where everyone can pretty much decide how they want to play it. :anitongue:
I agree. :P
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Luckily, most of us agree that that it's good to post our DNFs if we actually get to the coordinates, make a search, and don't find the cache. Until a person gets to this point, there is no right or wrong way, which makes this an aspect of geocaching where everyone can pretty much decide how they want to play it. B)

I only wish everyone who gets to a location and doesn't find the cache would log a DNF instead of a "Found it." :anitongue:

 

Recently, we wasted time looking for a cache on which someone had logged a "Found it" after several DNFs. Since I filter out caches that have had two DNFs in a row, especially when I am on a road trip, this cache wouldn't have even been in my GPSr . . . except for that false "Found It" log . . . :P

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For the past two years I have been posting DNA notes (Did Not Attempt) on caches where I never actually looked for the container because conditions at the location prevented me from searching.

I'm not going to use a DNF note to promote my agenda of what a good cache location is.

 

I'm posting a DNF if I actively looked for a cache once I parked, hiked, and got to the location where the cache is hidden. (assuming it wasn't found of course :anitongue:)

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DNF:

kids going squirrely (mine)

inability to look long enough because of kids, muggles, and more.

inability to look because I can't get down on my belly cause I'm carrying the baby

inability to look because its beside a busy road and the kids have/are escaped/escaping from their car seats

inability to find because the micro is crammed under a fence post top and the last person jammed it back on

inability to look because the weather suddenly turns

inability to look because I/we get spooked by animals.

 

Muggles don't worry me. Its our kids that are a real hazard to finds.

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I wonder if anyone ever shamelessly pads their DNF stats? Say, for instance, someone with a habit of logging temp caches went to an event that had 20 such temp caches hidden for the event. They hunted all 20, but only found 15. Would they then log 5 DNF's on the same event? :anitongue::P

Would they use a "Did Not Attend" log for that?

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Luckily, most of us agree that that it's good to post our DNFs if we actually get to the coordinates, make a search, and don't find the cache. Until a person gets to this point, there is no right or wrong way, which makes this an aspect of geocaching where everyone can pretty much decide how they want to play it. :anitongue:
I agree. :P

 

Even though we have a split on the exact time a note vs. DNF log is used, we seem to agree on what information is useful to the owner and that it does need to be logged.

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Put me down as one who logs a DNF anytime I get out of the vehicle and start a search, but didn't find it. The reason doesn't matter, if I get out of the car.

 

However, I do not always log a DNF on caches that I go after, and decide not to go all the way to look for. If the reason I do not look has nothing to do with the cache, or is personal, I do not log it.

 

Example would be a cache I get near and realize I do not want to take the dogs to this one. (even though dogs may be allowed) If I have to go out of sight of the car, and cannot leave the windows open I will not leave the dogs in the car. Or if my knees are hurting from previous caches that day, and when I near the cache, I decide to go home instead.

 

The important thing to me is whether the reason for not looking has to do with the cache or me personally.

 

I think Mudfrog said it best.

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I wonder if anyone ever shamelessly pads their DNF stats? Say, for instance, someone with a habit of logging temp caches went to an event that had 20 such temp caches hidden for the event. They hunted all 20, but only found 15. Would they then log 5 DNF's on the same event? B):anitongue:
B):P

I would post a DNF on a temporary event cache that I failed to find - except that choice isn't available in the drop down box.

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To quote Mr Garrison from South Park, "There are no stupid questions, only stupid people", I am going to be stupid and ask this:

 

When I am searching for geocaches to find and I choose not to find a micro, a puzzle, or whatever because I dont want to bother driving that far, or it sounds like too much hassle or it may rain so I am going home altogether.

 

Do those constitute a DNF?

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choose not to find

 

I don't think a "choose not to find" is the same thing as a "Did Not Find".

 

I log all my DNFs, I know it is handy if there is information in there that could help someone but as briansnat said, the results of a hunt are the results and if it is a DNF then that is what I log. I think the point of logging a DNF includes notifying the cache owner or other geocachers of any potential problems, even those which have nothing to do with whether or not the cache is there. I have looked for one cache several times but I have never gotten closer than 1/2 mile. I was stopped by an impassable road (I logged a DNF so that other cachers would know that a wet road means they can't reach the cache.) I was stopped by a fenced road allowance. (I logged a DNF because the fenced road allowance was a new condition and made a closer approach impossible, the owner benefitted from knowing that the road allowance had been closed.)

I have logged DNF's on caches that I have already logged as Found. :anitongue:

I went back to one cache to add a TB and it was under 4 feet of snow, I logged a DNF because that was the result of my hunt, logging the results of my hunt let other seekers know that the cache was under a snowdrift. If I think the cache is gone I will add that information to my DNF log but I write a DNF log every time a cache hunt results in not finding the cache.

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To quote Mr Garrison from South Park, "There are no stupid questions, only stupid people", I am going to be stupid and ask this:

 

When I am searching for geocaches to find and I choose not to find a micro, a puzzle, or whatever because I dont want to bother driving that far, or it sounds like too much hassle or it may rain so I am going home altogether.

 

Do those constitute a DNF?

IMHO, if you didn't search for it then you never really attempted to find it.
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I wonder if anyone ever shamelessly pads their DNF stats? Say, for instance, someone with a habit of logging temp caches went to an event that had 20 such temp caches hidden for the event. They hunted all 20, but only found 15. Would they then log 5 DNF's on the same event? :o:ph34r:
:o:D

I would post a DNF on a temporary event cache that I failed to find - except that choice isn't available in the drop down box.

 

What drop down box? Oh wait, you probably mean the drop down box of the event itself. If that's the case, then you'll also notice that there isn't a "found temporary cache" in that drop down either... :(

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I wonder if anyone ever shamelessly pads their DNF stats? Say, for instance, someone with a habit of logging temp caches went to an event that had 20 such temp caches hidden for the event. They hunted all 20, but only found 15. Would they then log 5 DNF's on the same event? :o:o
:(:ph34r:

I would post a DNF on a temporary event cache that I failed to find - except that choice isn't available in the drop down box.

 

What drop down box? Oh wait, you probably mean the drop down box of the event itself. If that's the case, then you'll also notice that there isn't a "found temporary cache" in that drop down either... :(

Since they are using "Attended" to log each temp cache they found, then they should use "Did not Attend" to log each temp cache that they did not find. But there is no choice for that... :D
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I wonder if anyone ever shamelessly pads their DNF stats? Say, for instance, someone with a habit of logging temp caches went to an event that had 20 such temp caches hidden for the event. They hunted all 20, but only found 15. Would they then log 5 DNF's on the same event? :o:(
:D:o

I would post a DNF on a temporary event cache that I failed to find - except that choice isn't available in the drop down box.

 

What drop down box? Oh wait, you probably mean the drop down box of the event itself. If that's the case, then you'll also notice that there isn't a "found temporary cache" in that drop down either... :(

Since they are using "Attended" to log each temp cache they found, then they should use "Did not Attend" to log each temp cache that they did not find. But there is no choice for that... :D

 

Ahhhh, you're right! :)

 

Actually, a while back, they had "did not find" as an option in the drop down box for events. You wouldn't think anyone would ever use it but i did one time. The little blue frownie is still there to prove it.

 

There was an Event that i wanted to attend over in Houston about 70 miles away but i ended up having to work late that day. I was irritated about getting off so late but we headed for Houston as soon a i got off anyway. The event had already started and the more i thought about it, the more irritated i got. Suffice it to say, i turned the Jeep around at about the halfway mark and came home. I had made an attempt to attend the event but didn't make it, so that made it a DNF for me. :ph34r:

Edited by Mudfrog
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If I look for it, and it isn't there, I claim my smilie. After all, I looked for it, didn't I? (just kidding)

 

My policy is to claim a DNF if I tried to find the cache, but didn't. I don't agree with Briansnat (say it ain't so!) about plugging coords into my GPSr as the determiner of the beginning of the hunt sequence, though; rather, it's when I make an attempt to find the cache that precipitates a DNF. For instance, I had planned to do a roadside cache on a highway in Kentucky, but as I drove by, roadwork precluded my stopping, That was a DNF. When my wife and I went on a short hike in a State Park recently, and I had put coordinates into the unit for a possible hunt, but did not try to find those caches, I didn't make any notation.

The step you missed was Brainsnat's "and hit go to". I have lots of caches loaded in the GPSr, but the hunt doesn't start until I hit "go to" - then if I don't sign the log (for whatever reason) I didn't find it, so that's how I log it.

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