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2007 Jeep Geocaching Challenge


Bryan
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What I don't understand is why aren't any of the Red Jeep Travel Bug going to start in Alaska or Hawaii. We know that residents of Alaska and Hawaii ineligible for any prises. But why deprive us of the Red Jeep Travel Bug too? If the worry is that the Reb Jeep Travel Bug will be out of play for too long I can tell you from first hand experience that starting a Travel Bug in Hawaii does not mean it will stay in Hawaii for very long. In fact I've found that the Travel Bugs I've started in Hawaii left the state much quicker than the Travel Bugs that I've started in California. I have a entire series of 'Haole' Travel Bugs who's goal is to stay in Hawaii and currently two of them are out of the state!

 

If you accept as a premise that the Jeep TBs are just part of a contest then it makes sense that they not be distributed to areas that cannot partake in the contest. Would you sell a lottery ticket in a state full of people that couldn't win? Now, the reality as we know is that Jeep TBs are a lot more than the means to entire a contest. Most cachers enjoy them without any participation in the contest. I fully agree that it is quite disappointing for AK and HI cachers not to be part of the initial drop but I understand the reasoning.

 

If I were an AK or HI cacher I would probably direct my efforts at state legislators to change the contest laws instead of directing my ire at Groundspeak or Jeep (which you have not done but others have).

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I was issued one of the Green Jeeps last year. I put it into a cache and it has moved maybe 3 times total. People snag them and hoard them. It sucks. I didn't even bother trying to get one this year.

 

No one's even bothered to get my green Jeep and it remains unfound...I guess the Grizzly Bear warning scared people off.

 

Gem & Estelle

 

I have my doubts that it will be found anytime soon. The mountaintop Geocaches aren't very popular. :smile:

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If I were an AK or HI cacher I would probably direct my efforts at state legislators to change the contest laws instead of directing my ire at Groundspeak or Jeep (which you have not done but others have).

 

Hawaii has some very odd restrictions on gambling. I tried to run a 50/50 raffle at work and I was shut down by the legal department. Hawaii state law forbids it. I was then told of a work around from someone that I work with. I now sell candy and you get a free ticket with each piece of candy you buy. I have no idea why one method is okay and other is not. I was talking to someone from our legal department who has lived in Hawaii all his life told me that some of the anti-gambling laws in Hawaii has to do with Las Vegas. Apparently the casinos there pay for a lobbyist here. If they can keep gambling out of Hawaii then people who want to gamble go to Las Vegas. It makes sense and I see advertisements all the time for Las Vegas, sometimes calling it the seventh island. I've also recently read a new article say that Las Vegas is the number one vacation spot for Hawaiians. Maybe some Hawaiian Geocachers vacationing in Las Vegas will bring a few of Nevada's Red Jeep Travel Bugs to Hawaii.

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For those of you who receive the weekly cache notification emailer from Groundspeak, you may have seen this announcement already. For those of you who don't, here it is:

 

The 2007 Jeep Geocaching Challenge begins on July 1st, 2007 in the USA. This year, it's a red die-cast Jeep Commander vehicle with a Travel Bug tag attached. As of today, we're enlisting geocachers to hide approximately 8,000 Jeep Travel Bugs in caches located in the lower 48 United States. If you are interested in placing a 2007 Jeep Travel Bug into a cache near you, please complete the request form, located here (while supplies last):

 

http://jeep.geocaching.com/signup/

 

Visit http://jeep.geocaching.com on July 1st for details about the 2007 Jeep Geocaching Challenge.

 

Just curious as to why you are excluding Hawaii and Alaska in this contest?

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If I were an AK or HI cacher I would probably direct my efforts at state legislators to change the contest laws instead of directing my ire at Groundspeak or Jeep (which you have not done but others have).

 

Hawaii has some very odd restrictions on gambling. I tried to run a 50/50 raffle at work and I was shut down by the legal department. Hawaii state law forbids it. I was then told of a work around from someone that I work with. I now sell candy and you get a free ticket with each piece of candy you buy. I have no idea why one method is okay and other is not. I was talking to someone from our legal department who has lived in Hawaii all his life told me that some of the anti-gambling laws in Hawaii has to do with Las Vegas. Apparently the casinos there pay for a lobbyist here. If they can keep gambling out of Hawaii then people who want to gamble go to Las Vegas. It makes sense and I see advertisements all the time for Las Vegas, sometimes calling it the seventh island. I've also recently read a new article say that Las Vegas is the number one vacation spot for Hawaiians. Maybe some Hawaiian Geocachers vacationing in Las Vegas will bring a few of Nevada's Red Jeep Travel Bugs to Hawaii.

 

I've heard this from a few directions but nobody really can point to the specific law that prohibits this. I've searched pretty extensively and cannot find this law. Does this same law cover Alaska? Or is this a Jeep law?

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If I were an AK or HI cacher I would probably direct my efforts at state legislators to change the contest laws instead of directing my ire at Groundspeak or Jeep (which you have not done but others have).

 

Here's the Gambling Law in Hawaii that I keep running into:

 

(4) "Gambling". A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome. Gambling does not include bona fide business transactions valid under the law of contracts, including but not limited to contracts for the purchase or sale at a future date of securities or commodities, and agreements to compensate for loss caused by the happening of chance, including but not limited to contracts of indemnity or guaranty and life, health, or accident insurance.

 

See anything here that applies to this Jeep contest here??

 

I am having trouble finding the "Red Jeep Travel Bug Law" that prohibits Hawaii and Alaska from even getting a travel bug anyway. If this elusive law is uncovered and we in fact can't have a contest like this, then this might be something that we should direct our ire other places. But Jen from Groundspeak is saying that Alaska and Hawaii don't get the TBs because this is the way Jeep said it is going to be. So for now, they get the ire.

Edited by Team GeoBlast
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If I were an AK or HI cacher I would probably direct my efforts at state legislators to change the contest laws instead of directing my ire at Groundspeak or Jeep (which you have not done but others have).

 

Hawaii has some very odd restrictions on gambling. I tried to run a 50/50 raffle at work and I was shut down by the legal department. Hawaii state law forbids it. I was then told of a work around from someone that I work with. I now sell candy and you get a free ticket with each piece of candy you buy. I have no idea why one method is okay and other is not. I was talking to someone from our legal department who has lived in Hawaii all his life told me that some of the anti-gambling laws in Hawaii has to do with Las Vegas. Apparently the casinos there pay for a lobbyist here. If they can keep gambling out of Hawaii then people who want to gamble go to Las Vegas. It makes sense and I see advertisements all the time for Las Vegas, sometimes calling it the seventh island. I've also recently read a new article say that Las Vegas is the number one vacation spot for Hawaiians. Maybe some Hawaiian Geocachers vacationing in Las Vegas will bring a few of Nevada's Red Jeep Travel Bugs to Hawaii.

 

The legal department where this person works may be more strict than the state law. So that is not a good indicator. Especially if your talking about a military base.

 

As to the part about selling candy and getting a “free” ticket; I can tell you if someone asks for a free ticket without buying anything you must provide it or else you are guilty of gambling. Look at all the similar giveaways such as Mc Donald’s Monopoly game. You get free game pieces with a purchase but if you ask for one, they will provide it. You have to make the request by mail though so they don’t get a lot of request.

 

Here is a link to a web site that seems to have the complete state law on gambling for Hawaii (updated March 2007). Can anybody see anything in this that prevents the Jeep giveaway from working here?

 

I can’t see this jeep giveaway thing being of much concern to Las Vegas. Especially since it’s available all over the rest of the country.

 

I would really like to hear from Jeep/Groundspeak about why this anti Hawaii and Alaska bias exists.

Edited by 68-eldo
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I was issued one of the Green Jeeps last year. I put it into a cache and it has moved maybe 3 times total. People snag them and hoard them. It sucks. I didn't even bother trying to get one this year.

 

Same here. They have a shorter life expectancy than your average Geocoin.

 

Oh well, I've got something better than a red Jeep TB:

 

PICT0014sm.jpg

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there are no laws in hawaii that prohibit a contest of this nature. there is no money involved and there is no risk of losing anything.....we have contests here all the time......local and from the mainland.

postage is not an issue.... if you use the USPS and a bulk rate there is no difference in postage than sending something from california to maine. hawaii residents get shafted all the time in this regard and it is due to simple ignorance on the behalf of the sender. the first thing i check when shopping on line is the shipping policies.....about half are hawaii friendly and half are lame.

as to recieving the winning prize.... hawaiians would be happy to take delivery on the mainland.....we know how to ship cars...we can also sell them....give them to a relative and maintain them as transportation while on the mainland.......there is no good excuse for this exclusion.

jeeps are themost popular rental vehicle here for tourists.....there are hundreds of them....... and we have jeep dealers too..... getting one here is not a problem.......all they would have to do is make the winner responsible for any delivery charges.....which they probably do already..

hawaii cachers are having a "NO JEEPS ALLOWED" event to highlight and draw attention to this inequity.

wish us luck.....

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If I were an AK or HI cacher I would probably direct my efforts at state legislators to change the contest laws instead of directing my ire at Groundspeak or Jeep (which you have not done but others have).

 

Here's the Gambling Law in Hawaii that I keep running into:

 

(4) "Gambling". A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome. Gambling does not include bona fide business transactions valid under the law of contracts, including but not limited to contracts for the purchase or sale at a future date of securities or commodities, and agreements to compensate for loss caused by the happening of chance, including but not limited to contracts of indemnity or guaranty and life, health, or accident insurance.

 

See anything here that applies to this Jeep contest here??

 

I am having trouble finding the "Red Jeep Travel Bug Law" that prohibits Hawaii and Alaska from even getting a travel bug anyway. If this elusive law is uncovered and we in fact can't have a contest like this, then this might be something that we should direct our ire other places. But Jen from Groundspeak is saying that Alaska and Hawaii don't get the TBs because this is the way Jeep said it is going to be. So for now, they get the ire.

 

So what is the official word from Jeep as to why they don't run the contest in HI or AK? It would be very hard to attempt to get things changed if we don't know what need to get changed. I've always assumed it was the Gambling laws.

Edited by Glenn
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If I were an AK or HI cacher I would probably direct my efforts at state legislators to change the contest laws instead of directing my ire at Groundspeak or Jeep (which you have not done but others have).

 

Here's the Gambling Law in Hawaii that I keep running into:

 

(4) "Gambling". A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome. Gambling does not include bona fide business transactions valid under the law of contracts, including but not limited to contracts for the purchase or sale at a future date of securities or commodities, and agreements to compensate for loss caused by the happening of chance, including but not limited to contracts of indemnity or guaranty and life, health, or accident insurance.

 

See anything here that applies to this Jeep contest here??

 

I am having trouble finding the "Red Jeep Travel Bug Law" that prohibits Hawaii and Alaska from even getting a travel bug anyway. If this elusive law is uncovered and we in fact can't have a contest like this, then this might be something that we should direct our ire other places. But Jen from Groundspeak is saying that Alaska and Hawaii don't get the TBs because this is the way Jeep said it is going to be. So for now, they get the ire.

 

So what is the official word from Jeep as to why they don't run the contest in HI or AK? It would be very hard to attempt to get things changed if we don't know what need to get changed. I've always assumed it was the Gambling laws.

 

Listen really closely...hear that? Yeah, that was a pin drop. The official Groundspeak answer is <drumroll> it is a decision that was made by Jeep. Jeep, hasn't elected to be exactly talkative about the subject either.

 

The downside of excluding any group in something like this (other than the bad karma) and not explaining it is that it is human nature to assume the worst. Instead of getting mad, we get even and for the past few years we have had tons of fun dissing Jeep at every opportunity.

 

For example, have you ever heard of a FEEP TB? Probably not, unless you have cached in Hawaii or Alaska or outside of the lower 48 states. This is a TB concept that was started by Lemon Fresh Dog that has some kind of a car attached with a goal to travel anywhere but the lower 48 states. Usually, there is some kind of a written protest to being left out of the contest attached. The funny thing is, I understand most of the Jeep TB get "collected" pretty quickly. The FEEPs just keep moving.

 

I think I speak for most folks out here, we really could care less about actually winning the Jeep. We just want to feel like we are part of the United States of America and see a few of these bugs in our caches.

Edited by Team GeoBlast
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I think I speak for most folks out here, we really could care less about actually winning the Jeep. We just want to feel like we are part of the United States of America and see a few of these bugs in our caches.

 

I promise you, if I ever find a cache that contains a Jeep TB, (I never have), I will PM you and arrange to send it to you to release in Hawaii. Sure, that takes it out of circulation for the game, but how is that any different than the first finder keeping it? It might as well get circulated a bit before it gets stolen.

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Listen really closely...hear that? Yeah, that was a pin drop. The official Groundspeak answer is <drumroll> it is a decision that was made by Jeep. Jeep, hasn't elected to be exactly talkative about the subject either.

I'm guessing if folks that live in Alaska and Hawaii really want help from Groundspeak on this one, you might want to elect a spokesperson that hasn't already attempted to torpedo Groundspeak by trying to get WalMart mad at them.

 

Just a thought.

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Listen really closely...hear that? Yeah, that was a pin drop. The official Groundspeak answer is <drumroll> it is a decision that was made by Jeep. Jeep, hasn't elected to be exactly talkative about the subject either.

I'm guessing if folks that live in Alaska and Hawaii really want help from Groundspeak on this one, you might want to elect a spokesperson that hasn't already attempted to torpedo Groundspeak by trying to get WalMart mad at them.

 

Just a thought.

 

You really never managed to get past that did you?

 

You'll be happy to know that I've since become pretty good friends with the manager of Walmart and have taken him and his family caching. They will probably sponsor our CITO event next year, if I can remember to get the paperwork in on time. It all worked out well and everyone is happy, except for you for some odd reason.

Edited by Team GeoBlast
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Listen really closely...hear that? Yeah, that was a pin drop. The official Groundspeak answer is <drumroll> it is a decision that was made by Jeep. Jeep, hasn't elected to be exactly talkative about the subject either.

I'm guessing if folks that live in Alaska and Hawaii really want help from Groundspeak on this one, you might want to elect a spokesperson that hasn't already attempted to torpedo Groundspeak by trying to get WalMart mad at them.

 

Just a thought.

 

You really never managed to get past that did you?

 

You'll be happy to know that I've since become pretty good friends with the manager of Walmart and have taken him and his family caching. They will probably sponsor our CITO event next year, if I can remember to get the paperwork in on time. It all worked out well and everyone is happy, except for you for some odd reason.

But be honest. What was your intention when you first contacted him? Was it to prove your point about how someone talking to a WalMart manager could pose a threat to the game, or was it to gain a friend to go caching with and get a CITO sponsor?

 

I'm just sayin'.

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I think I speak for most folks out here, we really could care less about actually winning the Jeep. We just want to feel like we are part of the United States of America and see a few of these bugs in our caches.

 

I promise you, if I ever find a cache that contains a Jeep TB, (I never have), I will PM you and arrange to send it to you to release in Hawaii. Sure, that takes it out of circulation for the game, but how is that any different than the first finder keeping it? It might as well get circulated a bit before it gets stolen.

 

Now that is very gracious of you! Mahalo!

 

Because we've never moved off square one, I'll confess to not really being familiar with how the contest actually works. I'd read the 2007 game rules but, well, they are not available. If to be eligible to win, someone that is in the lower 48 has to have it in their possession, you've got a pretty good chance of that happening anyway. Our caches here are hit by a very high number of visitors. Again, thanks so much for your kindness. Everyone at our NO JEEPS ALLOWED event will love to discover it!

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Listen really closely...hear that? Yeah, that was a pin drop. The official Groundspeak answer is <drumroll> it is a decision that was made by Jeep. Jeep, hasn't elected to be exactly talkative about the subject either.

I'm guessing if folks that live in Alaska and Hawaii really want help from Groundspeak on this one, you might want to elect a spokesperson that hasn't already attempted to torpedo Groundspeak by trying to get WalMart mad at them.

 

Just a thought.

 

You really never managed to get past that did you?

 

You'll be happy to know that I've since become pretty good friends with the manager of Walmart and have taken him and his family caching. They will probably sponsor our CITO event next year, if I can remember to get the paperwork in on time. It all worked out well and everyone is happy, except for you for some odd reason.

But be honest. What was your intention when you first contacted him? Was it to prove your point about how someone talking to a WalMart manager could pose a threat to the game, or was it to gain a friend to go caching with and get a CITO sponsor?

 

I'm just sayin'.

 

If you are serious about this and really missed the whole point of that, then I would be happy to explain it to you offline or via PM. However, I'd rather not get into a flame war if it is okay with you.

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So what is the official word from Jeep as to why they don't run the contest in HI or AK? It would be very hard to attempt to get things changed if we don't know what need to get changed. I've always assumed it was the Gambling laws.

 

Well to be truthful this question has not been officially ask.

 

To do that we need to know who is officially running the contest and where to contact them. That information would most likely be contained in the official rules. It is important too to see the clause in the official rules that excludes Hawaii and Alaska. Also I would like to see if there is a clause in the rules that state the winner is responsible for dealer cost.

 

Those rules have not been posted as yet. Which is a little strange, I would think that the rules should be posted first, before a cacher is allowed to request the game pieces, before the web page to request them is up and well before they are sent out. This may in fact be a violation of federal law, but at this point I won’t go there.

 

I would really like hear from winners of the previous Jeep Challenge contests to see how they received their Jeep and if there were any other issues.

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I don't know how a thread about a Groundspeak promotion got on a WalMart tangent between two people :P but I'll take a moment to post a quick reminder with the appropriate forum guidelines:

 

Some things to keep in mind when posting:

 

Keep on topic: Responses to a particular thread should be on-topic and pertain to the discussion. Users should use the New Topic button to start a new discussion which would otherwise be off-topic in the current thread. Threads that are off topic may be closed by the moderator.

 

Private Discussions: Sometimes, a discussion thread strays off into a friendly dialogue or a heated debate among a very small number of users. For these exchanges, use the private discussion feature that is provided through the Groundspeak forums, or the Geocaching.com e-mail system. Public forum posts should be reserved for matters of interest to the general community.

Thanks.

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What exactly is the “challenge”? Do you log the jeep TBs in order to be placed in a drawing or something?

I am thinking the challenge has become one of even finding the jeeps. They get swiped and disappear from existence usually right off the start. There are numerous caches in my area that show them listed on the cache page but there is no sign of the actual jeep anywhere in the cache. Makes me think that there are trolls hiding near caches just waiting for a jeep to show up so they can steal it. The trolls really take a lot of the fun out of the game.

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I am thinking the challenge has become one of even finding the jeeps. They get swiped and disappear from existence usually right off the start. There are numerous caches in my area that show them listed on the cache page but there is no sign of the actual jeep anywhere in the cache. Makes me think that there are trolls hiding near caches just waiting for a jeep to show up so they can steal it. The trolls really take a lot of the fun out of the game.
As part of the challenge, Jeep has tapped certain cachers to collect the Jeeps rather than release them. This makes the challenge of finding them all that more difficult. The officially Jeep sanctioned Jeep TB collectors are competing against each other, the winner gets the second Jeep the company is giving away for this promotion.

 

I hear people asking "Too Tall John, how do I get onto this list?" Rumor has it, platinum members can nominate other platinum members for this honor, but Jeep has the final word. I heard one cacher got tapped after they were involved in a freak accident while looking for a cache on property owned by Chrysler. I can't say that for sure, of course, but the lawsuit they were bringing against the company was dropped soon after TB collectors were selected last year.

 

This leads to the real reason Jeep isn't releasing TBs into Hawaii or Alaska. Turns out, anyone found collecting these bugs can be seen as participating in this more clandestine side of the contest, thus anyone in posession of a Jeep TB in these 2 states is breaking the law.

 

Well, that's what the word on the street is... :P

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For those of you who receive the weekly cache notification emailer from Groundspeak, you may have seen this announcement already. For those of you who don't, here it is:

 

The 2007 Jeep Geocaching Challenge begins on July 1st, 2007 in the USA. This year, it's a red die-cast Jeep Commander vehicle with a Travel Bug tag attached. As of today, we're enlisting geocachers to hide approximately 8,000 Jeep Travel Bugs in caches located in the lower 48 United States. If you are interested in placing a 2007 Jeep Travel Bug into a cache near you, please complete the request form, located here (while supplies last):

 

http://jeep.geocaching.com/signup/

 

Visit http://jeep.geocaching.com on July 1st for details about the 2007 Jeep Geocaching Challenge.

 

I just read Jeremy's almost apologetic post about the Google ads that Groundspeak is going to start allowing on the GC.com website. If it is going to put Groundspeak (read Geocaching) on more solid ground, then I'm all for this. In fact, I encourage more of it. I want to see the latest and greatest geo tools!

 

Geocaching is an activity that can involve some very specialized gear and technology and I would think that this would be a pretty easy sell to advertisers as a growing niche market. If this is in fact a trend for Groundspeak (again, I support it) , then I hope that these precious few advertising opportunities will be filled with time tested and proven products and will not go to the company and products that will pay the most for it.

 

Steady as she goes Quiggle.. I am coming back on topic now. :ph34r:

 

This said, I am guessing that Jeep and Garmin have probably been the main source of advertising dollars in the past. Using this same litmus test, it is my hope that Groundspeak will someday be in a position to look at a promotion like the "Jeep Geocaching Challenge" and ask the hard questions of the sponsor. Such as: "What about Hawaii, Alaska, AND the rest of the world?!" There's a ton of Geocachers that faithfully support and promote the game (read Groundspeak customers) that are getting left totally out in the cold on this promotion. This can't help but make -the rest of us- feel like "have-nots."

 

PS: I'd also like to thank the lower 48 for their patience while we discuss this matter.

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PS: I'd also like to thank the lower 48 for their patience while we discuss this matter.

 

Don't forget the good folks in Guam, Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands, etc too.

 

Maybe this has something to do with it. The following is based on geocachers with 200 plus finds (approx):

Alaska: 70; Hawaii 41.

 

So you are the Red Jeep Promotion Guy this year and you are thinking about AK & HI. Maybe this is what goes through your head. I don't know for sure, because I'm not the Red Jeep Promotion Guy otherwise I'd rename myself the Black (or Blue) Jeep Promotions Guy. I'm just guessing here about the thought process of HI & AK. Your Target Audience (a geocacher) is a smaller number in these two states, spread out over a large area (AK), it would cost more to ship there ($$$), and there may or may not be some legal issues to deal with (HI). You also may consider that you are trying to promote your product to the most people possible at one time and still remain a good relationship with Groundspeak and only you are privy to the information on whether or not the past 3 years of jeeps have had any improved impact on sales.

 

So what do you do? Send it to the 48 <b>Contiguous</b> states knowing that that is where your core target audience is located, that it is legal, that it is cheaper, AND you know that eventually your advertising gimmick will eventually travel outside of those states, into other states, territiories, provinces, and countries giving you "added advertising" and perhaps an added backsale boost later on in the year both domestic and foreign. It's cheaper, it's legal, perhaps practical from your standing, you still get a good bang for your buck, and above all else, your boss is probably happy.

Edited by Trevor and Kate
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those are good points... the other backside is the negative publicity generated among that same group of cachers. this year especiallly...and the trickle down effect of friends and family talking about it. the "no jeeps allowed" event scheduled for july 7th should be well attended..... the oahu cachers are working on media coverage.....since the lack of contest participation has affected the population statewide. people are aware of being slighted in this way...... a big name like jeep may get some print here to focus on the situation. so if it does get some print the negative publicity will be expanded to include the circulation of one of the two major media outlets here as a human interest story......

probably will make little difference but i think that the negative will out weigh the positive after 4 years of this for jeep.

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those are good points... the other backside is the negative publicity generated among that same group of cachers. this year especiallly...and the trickle down effect of friends and family talking about it. the "no jeeps allowed" event scheduled for july 7th should be well attended..... the oahu cachers are working on media coverage.....since the lack of contest participation has affected the population statewide. people are aware of being slighted in this way...... a big name like jeep may get some print here to focus on the situation. so if it does get some print the negative publicity will be expanded to include the circulation of one of the two major media outlets here as a human interest story......

probably will make little difference but i think that the negative will out weigh the positive after 4 years of this for jeep.

 

In which case, Jeep decides to stop doing the promotion in 2008, there is no contest, no one gets jeeps including Alaska and Hawaii (still!) but at least no one feels excluded anymore?

 

;)

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