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Artist Edition


Renegade Knight

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I agree with those who say the term "Artist Edition" has been stretched beyond recognition. IMHO what is passing for AE's are nothing more than XLE. Now for those that take issue with this what is wrong with XLE? Why does it have to be called a AE? Answer = Marketing.

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I agree with those who say the term "Artist Edition" has been stretched beyond recognition. IMHO what is passing for AE's are nothing more than XLE. Now for those that take issue with this what is wrong with XLE? Why does it have to be called a AE? Answer = Marketing.

And silly me thought we would never agree on anything. <_< Here it is we are 100% in agreement.

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Well... I think everyone agrees that an Artist edition IS an extra limited edition, but it varies why?

 

Its in the metal, enamels, and features CHOSEN by the artist/designer OF that coin. Not by the minter, not as a general run, not as a regular limited edition.

 

Its an Artist Designed/Selected Edition of the coin. Hey, if it sells better, its not a crime. Its often no secret that designers have preferences in metals, finishes, etc.. that version of the coin might be GORGEOUS! And it is indeed limited, but I prefer to know if the edition is the Artist edition, vs. a regular SOLD LE, or XLE.

 

But thats my opinion!! An AE IS an XLE, but not a 'normal' one. Yeesh! You wouldnt think a defining term would be such a hot spot!

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Well... I think everyone agrees that an Artist edition IS an extra limited edition, but it varies why?

 

Its in the metal, enamels, and features CHOSEN by the artist/designer OF that coin. Not by the minter, not as a general run, not as a regular limited edition.

 

Its an Artist Designed/Selected Edition of the coin. Hey, if it sells better, its not a crime. Its often no secret that designers have preferences in metals, finishes, etc.. that version of the coin might be GORGEOUS! And it is indeed limited, but I prefer to know if the edition is the Artist edition, vs. a regular SOLD LE, or XLE.

 

But thats my opinion!! An AE IS an XLE, but not a 'normal' one. Yeesh! You wouldnt think a defining term would be such a hot spot!

I don't think many will disagree with what you have said. I know i don't. The disagreement comes with the number of coins. once it gets to be as many as a LE coin would be, it loses it's luster and becomes nothing more than a LE coin. this is where the artists feel they should get as many as they can for their work, where the collectors are sying it should be a limited amount to make it truly a special coin and not just another LE.

 

You think this is bad? Try defining a cache find!

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The disagreement comes with the number of coins. once it gets to be as many as a LE coin would be, it loses it's luster and becomes nothing more than a LE coin. this is where the artists feel they should get as many as they can for their work, where the collectors are sying it should be a limited amount to make it truly a special coin and not just another LE.

 

I have some questions...

 

What does the specific number of coins given as a gratuity have to do with whether it's an LE or AE?

 

Why would anyone other than the entity who owns the coin and the artist who did the work be involved in deciding what is or is not the AE version at all? Who are we to dictate what someone else can give as a gratuity?

 

Maybe the most important questions of all... Isn't it better to have some more new/unusual/beautiful versions of coins out there for everyone to enjoy than to berate people for doing something really kind? Isn't sharing these treasures the whole point? <_<

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What does the specific number of coins given as a gratuity have to do with whether it's an LE or AE?

 

Why would anyone other than the entity who owns the coin and the artist who did the work be involved in deciding what is or is not the AE version at all? Who are we to dictate what someone else can give as a gratuity?

 

Maybe the most important questions of all... Isn't it better to have some more new/unusual/beautiful versions of coins out there for everyone to enjoy than to berate people for doing something really kind? Isn't sharing these treasures the whole point? :D

These are no longer being used as a few coins for gratuity to which they were originally conceived. Some people are actually requiring these type of coins, in larger lots, as payment. Like most things coin related around here, it has moved from a the nice world of a friendly community into the extreme buisness sense of make as much as you can at all times.

 

These coins aren't out there for everyone to enjoy, and to say so is ridiculous. Most people here haven't seen a Moun10Bike which numbers in the hundreds yet alone an AE coin that there are only say 30 or so of. These aren't being shared with anyone other than the person claiming to have an AE instead of a LE or XLE, or who they sell them to.

 

I completely miss where you see this as an act of kindness. They take a large cut of coins, sometimes as large as the actual LE, with the intent to turn a larger profit on them by slapping the AE name on it. Where's the kindness I am missing? This is a buisness move.

 

You are the exception at this point. You received AE coins out of kindness of the person doing the coin. Had you required 30 coins of a 300 coin mint (10%) would you still be calling it an AE? Seems to go against what the term was to mean.

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I'm starting to get confused...

 

So if you had a deal with a coin site where they paid for the minting and sold 250 coins on their site and then gave 60 (different metal) coins to the person who came up with the idea. Are those 60 coins then AE's? Or is the person who was given the 60 coins not the artist?

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I'm starting to get confused...

 

So if you had a deal with a coin site where they paid for the minting and sold 250 coins on their site and then gave 60 (different metal) coins to the person who came up with the idea. Are those 60 coins then AE's? Or is the person who was given the 60 coins not the artist?

 

No, I don't think those 60 coins are AE, nor do I think anyone would consider them to be AE coins in such a case. These would simply be LE coins that the coin creator (irrelivant if they are also the artist or not) receives as part of the deal that was made with the coin manufacturer. These 60 coins are made because they are the creator/owner of the coin and not because they are the artist. If designing the artwork for your own coin, there would be no AE version of a coin created anyways.

 

Obviously there are still differing claims and opinions as to what an AE is or what people think it should be. I think it's clear that an AE is a Special Edition of a coin which is created in limited or very very limited quanitities which is primarily given to the artist for various reasons as outlined as follows:

 

AE (as a token of appreciation) - Usally 1 coin (something truly unique) or a few (5 or less) at most is made of a certain variant of the RE (Regular Edition) coin. The coin creator would decide on the finish (and or other details, like pain colour) of the AE coin and it is the coin creator's choice to give this coin to the artist, which usually comes as an unexpected surprise to the artist. This coin is given to the artist as a token of thanks and appreciation for their time, effort and skills that they put into creating the artwork for you. Since this potentially is a one of a kind coin, most likely the artist would keep this coin forever and would be priceless in their eyes. Could also be considered a Rare AE or LE AE or AAE (Artist Appreciation Edition).

 

AE (as a form of payment) - Multiple coins (usually between 20 up to 50 coins or 5% up to 10% of the total run of the coin) of a specific version are made, as decided upon by the artist or in combination with the coin creator and the artist. The quantity is decided before hand between the coin creator and the artist. The artist is expecting to receive this as payment for his work. The artist receives all or most of the coins of this version. The artist usually does not keep all of these coins and may sell, trade, give some of these coins away. Since coin creators can usually find an artist to make the artwork for their coin for around $100 (or sometimes even as low as $50 or even for free), some artists choose to be paid in coins because they can sell them for around $30-$50 each and if they choose to sell most, they could potentially earn $1000+ from the sale of these which is substantially more than the $100 they would have earned if they were paid in cash for their efforts. (This is smart business sense in my opinion and nothing wrong with that.) Could also be considered a Common AE or RE AE or APE (Artist Payment Edition).

 

I think there are destinct differences in AE as outlined above, and based also on what people are saying in this thread.

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These are no longer being used as a few coins for gratuity to which they were originally conceived. Some people are actually requiring these type of coins, in larger lots, as payment. Like most things coin related around here, it has moved from a the nice world of a friendly community into the extreme buisness sense of make as much as you can at all times.

 

But... is there really anything wrong with an artist preferring to be paid in coins? To me, this sounds like the artist is a bad person for WANTING to be paid. Its work, just like any other - and I guess I dont understand why profit is a dirty word.

 

These coins aren't out there for everyone to enjoy, and to say so is ridiculous. Most people here haven't seen a Moun10Bike which numbers in the hundreds yet alone an AE coin that there are only say 30 or so of. These aren't being shared with anyone other than the person claiming to have an AE instead of a LE or XLE, or who they sell them to.

 

I still fail to see how this is 'wrong' though - I guess I see it as the same as a person who buys coins that will not be activated, or will never travel. It happens, and is just part of the hobby.

 

I completely miss where you see this as an act of kindness. They take a large cut of coins, sometimes as large as the actual LE, with the intent to turn a larger profit on them by slapping the AE name on it. Where's the kindness I am missing? This is a buisness move.

 

Ive never seen an AE edition be as large as an LE - the most I have seen is like, 40 coins. Which is still a darn small edition. I usually take only PART of my 'payment' in AE coins - the rest I ask for the regular versions, so I have some to own and trade. (And even sell!)

 

You are the exception at this point. You received AE coins out of kindness of the person doing the coin. Had you required 30 coins of a 300 coin mint (10%) would you still be calling it an AE? Seems to go against what the term was to mean.

 

 

Again, I dont think the term means anything other than:

 

A small unique edition of coins created FOR the artist/designer.

 

I guess I dont see why anyone cares this much - other than the 'standard' meaning. :D

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These are no longer being used as a few coins for gratuity to which they were originally conceived. Some people are actually requiring these type of coins, in larger lots, as payment. Like most things coin related around here, it has moved from a the nice world of a friendly community into the extreme buisness sense of make as much as you can at all times.

 

These coins aren't out there for everyone to enjoy, and to say so is ridiculous. Most people here haven't seen a Moun10Bike which numbers in the hundreds yet alone an AE coin that there are only say 30 or so of. These aren't being shared with anyone other than the person claiming to have an AE instead of a LE or XLE, or who they sell them to.

 

I completely miss where you see this as an act of kindness. They take a large cut of coins, sometimes as large as the actual LE, with the intent to turn a larger profit on them by slapping the AE name on it. Where's the kindness I am missing? This is a buisness move.

 

You are the exception at this point. You received AE coins out of kindness of the person doing the coin. Had you required 30 coins of a 300 coin mint (10%) would you still be calling it an AE? Seems to go against what the term was to mean.

 

You said: "These are no longer being used as a few coins for gratuity to which they were originally conceived."

 

Wow, I don't know if you're just jaded or really, REALLY misinformed. For you to claim you know that how these coins are being used at all based on a few cases is amazing. Not every artist is doing what you say and I most certainly am not the exception. Not to mention that if even one artist continues to receive them as a gratuity then your statement is completely false. For you to lump all artists together or even as a majority is just an incredibly ignorant comment unless you know every artist and every coin made. This is not a flame against you, but I would like to know where you guys are getting your "facts" that you so freely toss about.

 

AE runs as big as LE's? That really surprised me. Where have you seen that? I've never had an AE represent more than 1.5% of a total run for myself except in one case where a mint misunderstood the request of the production company and made approximately 3%.

 

You miss the acts of kindness? It's ridiculous to say they're out there for people to enjoy? Are you freakin kidding me? Have you completely overlooked all the money raised for charities, all the cions donated to events, all the coins left in caches and all the gifts of these AEs made to friends? They're being shared at events, in person, and traveling from cache to cache. Even in the few cases that have been pointed out here there have been a hoard of acts of kindness involved from those artists. The AEs are showing up all over or you wouldn't even be aware of them.

 

"Taking a large cut of the coins" is also misleading. The artists (even the cases you're referring to) aren't "taking" anything. I don't care if they sell them, that's not the point here. They're given not taken. Whether they're given in payment or gratuity shouldn't matter either. The OP wants to know what an AE is. How they're being used after they're received has no bearing anywhere in this conversation in defining what they are or how they were originally aquired.

 

I understand if you don't like how you're seeing something used for purpose other than how you think it should be. It doesn't change what an AE is though. :D

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Greetings. There are people that DO turn around and sell the AE coins for income, if they recieved them as pay/barter for their work, they may do as they wish who is "anyone" to govern that ? Design a coin, get some AE's and do as they wish, its a free economy, there will be takers.

 

But there are also people like The Fox & Hound, That DO turn these special coins into treasured "gifts" This I sadly omitted from my first post in this topic. We have had no formal "trades" It's been me having something special he may be seeking along the way (sometimes just some special coins I have tucked away) Sent off and in return a care package shows up now and then with special AE treats, not asked for just gifted my way as a thank you for some trinkets sent his way :mad:A friendly exchange between friends. :mad:

 

Through the kindness of coin gestures back and fourth , he and I have exchanged many a coin. and I have many AE coins he has designed that will forever be treasures in my collection, They are listed in my coin "keeper" list as AE coins if you care to have a browse.

 

These treasured AE coins in my collection will be shared with anyone I meet, and never to be sold, Just to be admired. :D

 

As well Chris is holding a coin-test where a "bunch" more then I can count of AE coins will be prizes for folks releasing the coins he has designed and sold commercial into the wild.

 

Most reciently I recieved a AE Whail Trail coin from Tusn as a gift coin as well, that will never be parted with. So indeed these "special" coins are used for other then profit, only to bring smiles to those who recieve them,

 

EDIT:: To add also these may be dropped into caches, auctioned for charity and or special causes. Redwing Dave has done that just reciently with the da-vinci coins AE sets. There are many a good cause these special coins go to, If a charity strikes me perhaps a AE I have possesion of will be donated to the cause :D

 

Glenn

Edited by glennk721
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To muddy the waters even further, a line from a current ebay auction reads:

 

"THIS ANTIQUE COPPER XLE ARTIST EDITION GEOCOIN WAS NEVER MADE AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC!!!"

 

I suppose we can add XLEAE to the list of Geocoin terminologies? I can see both sides of this debate and have been schooled quite a bit from some of the posts here about the origins and original intent of the term AE. I think the issue now is that the use of the AE term has strayed and in some cases is being used for personal gain, which I believe was never intended.

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To muddy the waters even further, a line from a current ebay auction reads:

 

"THIS ANTIQUE COPPER XLE ARTIST EDITION GEOCOIN WAS NEVER MADE AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC!!!"

 

I suppose we can add XLEAE to the list of Geocoin terminologies? I can see both sides of this debate and have been schooled quite a bit from some of the posts here about the origins and original intent of the term AE. I think the issue now is that the use of the AE term has strayed and in some cases is being used for personal gain, which I believe was never intended.

 

:D That's a new one to me! The term may have strayed, but then I've seen coins on ebay listed as XLE, LE, VHTF and even SOLD OUT when they were still available in storefronts or from the creators. Using the term incorrectly doesn't negate what the correct meaning is though. :mad:

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Well... Guilty party here! LOL

 

When I listed an AE auction originally, I was emailed MANY MANY times to 'define' the term/idea (which is why this thread is interesting!)

 

The AE is in essence an Extra Limited Edition - meaning, smaller than any LEs made, yet its actually an ARTIST edition. But, on ebay - the rule when it comes to descriptive terms is "The more the better" - meaning, the more information you give, the better the auction goes. Hence XLE AE - (Extra Limited Artist Edition - as the coin HAD a regular LE)

 

But, also, keep in mind most eBayers use terms when describing an auction item that we may otherwise not use in daily life, or in arranging a trade! LOL The rule of ebay is to sell, sell, sell...

 

And.. I ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE about Artist Editions NOT being intended for personal gain.

 

Again WHY is profit a dirty word, and WHY is the artist NOT allowed to profit???? Why should we be relegated to only giving them away, or trading them? I guess I personally dont see the sin in selling an Artist Edition coin.

 

I mean, people purchase multiple coins from an original sales site to resell, people trade coins to resell, why shouldnt the artist be allowed to profit for work completed?

 

Heck, I'll continue to sell coins I design, and whatever RE, LE, XLE, AE, etc.. editions I have on eBay, and at events. But again, I do this for a living, and as was stated, the money 'earned' for design is minimal compared to the 'real value' of the work completed. Coins as payment helps bridge that gap, and keeps design affordable, while allowing the artist to actually earn a living if they choose to sell them!

 

Theres nothing wrong with selling a coin, and absolutely nothing wrong with making money at it. I can't see why the general opinion is that the artists are wrong for possibly profiting off of a design.

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I’ve been rather amused by the arguments about how many angels will fit on the head of a pin throughout this thread. The most vocal in the thread seem to be artists and “old-timers.” At the risk of being a troll, I thought I’d throw in the opinion of a member of the buying public. (I have a couple of Geojellies, a Geotag geocoin, and a design I might like to make one day, but I consider myself to be a consumer – not a producer – of geocoins.) For perspective, I am a heavy purchaser of geocoins, but I’m probably not a collector in the traditional sense. Many of the geocoins I’ve purchased have been released as travelers (>250) and the rest (if I counted them I'd get depressed over how much I’ve spent) are stored in boxes and bags rather than in nice albums for display.

 

At GW5, I saw a lot of AE coins for sale. It even seems to me that more coins were being sold as AEs than as LEs (though I could technically be wrong on that). As a buyer of geocoins, it seems to me that AE, as it is used now, is little more than a marketing term used to jack up the asking price for a geocoin. As a purchaser of geocoins, it means little more than LE or possible XLE to me.

 

To the artists, I apologize if that is not how you see your AE coins . . . but to this consumer, that is where the term has degraded to. I don’t see anything fundamentally wrong with trying to maximize income from geocoins – they are and have been primarily a commercial item for the last year – with some bordering on commodities. But, AEs – as the term is commonly applied today – is a marketing term for a subset of limited edition coins. To me, they are not intrinsically more special than any other limited edition coin. Their value is in their aesthetics and relative scarcity – not in the seemingly arbitrary label that has been attached to them.

 

As a consumer, I don’t perceive a difference in Joe Hiccup designing a coin and making 30 special edition coins and Rose Water designing a geocoin for Joe Hiccup and receiving 30 special edition coins as payment. 30 limited edition coins are 30 limited edition coins; regardless of the label attached to them. It DOES NOT matter if Joe Hiccup or Rose Water received them.

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Here was my defining factor...

 

If you want an RE, or LE - who do you contact to buy/trade them?

 

The person producing the coin.

 

If you want an AE coin, who do you contact?

 

The artist/designer.

 

Thats the main thing that differs - an AE is a limited edition coin that is ONLY available from the artist, hence the name "Artist Edition"

 

No more, no less. They are somewhat more scarce. 90% of my Artist Edition coins are still here with me. I sell, or trade a small number, but others I obsessively sit on for no particular reason. :D

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To the artists, I apologize if that is not how you see your AE coins . . . but to this consumer, that is where the term has degraded to. I don’t see anything fundamentally wrong with trying to maximize income from geocoins – they are and have been primarily a commercial item for the last year – with some bordering on commodities. But, AEs – as the term is commonly applied today – is a marketing term for a subset of limited edition coins. To me, they are not intrinsically more special than any other limited edition coin. Their value is in their aesthetics and relative scarcity – not in the seemingly arbitrary label that has been attached to them.

 

As a consumer, I don’t perceive a difference in Joe Hiccup designing a coin and making 30 special edition coins and Rose Water designing a geocoin for Joe Hiccup and receiving 30 special edition coins as payment. 30 limited edition coins are 30 limited edition coins; regardless of the label attached to them. It DOES NOT matter if Joe Hiccup or Rose Water received them.

 

Well said. :D

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At GW5, I saw a lot of AE coins for sale. It even seems to me that more coins were being sold as AEs than as LEs (though I could technically be wrong on that). As a buyer of geocoins, it seems to me that AE, as it is used now, is little more than a marketing term used to jack up the asking price for a geocoin. As a purchaser of geocoins, it means little more than LE or possible XLE to me.

 

To the artists, I apologize if that is not how you see your AE coins . . . but to this consumer, that is where the term has degraded to. I don’t see anything fundamentally wrong with trying to maximize income from geocoins – they are and have been primarily a commercial item for the last year – with some bordering on commodities. But, AEs – as the term is commonly applied today – is a marketing term for a subset of limited edition coins. To me, they are not intrinsically more special than any other limited edition coin. Their value is in their aesthetics and relative scarcity – not in the seemingly arbitrary label that has been attached to them.

 

As a consumer, I don’t perceive a difference in Joe Hiccup designing a coin and making 30 special edition coins and Rose Water designing a geocoin for Joe Hiccup and receiving 30 special edition coins as payment. 30 limited edition coins are 30 limited edition coins; regardless of the label attached to them. It DOES NOT matter if Joe Hiccup or Rose Water received them.

 

I Agree 100%

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I’ve been rather amused by the arguments about how many angels will fit on the head of a pin throughout this thread. The most vocal in the thread seem to be artists and “old-timers.” At the risk of being a troll, I thought I’d throw in the opinion of a member of the buying public. (I have a couple of Geojellies, a Geotag geocoin, and a design I might like to make one day, but I consider myself to be a consumer – not a producer – of geocoins.) For perspective, I am a heavy purchaser of geocoins, but I’m probably not a collector in the traditional sense. Many of the geocoins I’ve purchased have been released as travelers (>250) and the rest (if I counted them I'd get depressed over how much I’ve spent) are stored in boxes and bags rather than in nice albums for display.

 

At GW5, I saw a lot of AE coins for sale. It even seems to me that more coins were being sold as AEs than as LEs (though I could technically be wrong on that). As a buyer of geocoins, it seems to me that AE, as it is used now, is little more than a marketing term used to jack up the asking price for a geocoin. As a purchaser of geocoins, it means little more than LE or possible XLE to me.

 

To the artists, I apologize if that is not how you see your AE coins . . . but to this consumer, that is where the term has degraded to. I don’t see anything fundamentally wrong with trying to maximize income from geocoins – they are and have been primarily a commercial item for the last year – with some bordering on commodities. But, AEs – as the term is commonly applied today – is a marketing term for a subset of limited edition coins. To me, they are not intrinsically more special than any other limited edition coin. Their value is in their aesthetics and relative scarcity – not in the seemingly arbitrary label that has been attached to them.

 

As a consumer, I don’t perceive a difference in Joe Hiccup designing a coin and making 30 special edition coins and Rose Water designing a geocoin for Joe Hiccup and receiving 30 special edition coins as payment. 30 limited edition coins are 30 limited edition coins; regardless of the label attached to them. It DOES NOT matter if Joe Hiccup or Rose Water received them.

 

Well thought out and even better said! 100% agree

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I’ve been rather amused by the arguments about how many angels will fit on the head of a pin throughout this thread. The most vocal in the thread seem to be artists and “old-timers.” At the risk of being a troll, I thought I’d throw in the opinion of a member of the buying public. (I have a couple of Geojellies, a Geotag geocoin, and a design I might like to make one day, but I consider myself to be a consumer – not a producer – of geocoins.) For perspective, I am a heavy purchaser of geocoins, but I’m probably not a collector in the traditional sense. Many of the geocoins I’ve purchased have been released as travelers (>250) and the rest (if I counted them I'd get depressed over how much I’ve spent) are stored in boxes and bags rather than in nice albums for display.

 

At GW5, I saw a lot of AE coins for sale. It even seems to me that more coins were being sold as AEs than as LEs (though I could technically be wrong on that). As a buyer of geocoins, it seems to me that AE, as it is used now, is little more than a marketing term used to jack up the asking price for a geocoin. As a purchaser of geocoins, it means little more than LE or possible XLE to me.

 

To the artists, I apologize if that is not how you see your AE coins . . . but to this consumer, that is where the term has degraded to. I don’t see anything fundamentally wrong with trying to maximize income from geocoins – they are and have been primarily a commercial item for the last year – with some bordering on commodities. But, AEs – as the term is commonly applied today – is a marketing term for a subset of limited edition coins. To me, they are not intrinsically more special than any other limited edition coin. Their value is in their aesthetics and relative scarcity – not in the seemingly arbitrary label that has been attached to them.

 

As a consumer, I don’t perceive a difference in Joe Hiccup designing a coin and making 30 special edition coins and Rose Water designing a geocoin for Joe Hiccup and receiving 30 special edition coins as payment. 30 limited edition coins are 30 limited edition coins; regardless of the label attached to them. It DOES NOT matter if Joe Hiccup or Rose Water received them.

 

I read this a few times through and was surprised at the support you received for this arguement and even more so from who's supporting this statement. You have made one thing abundantly clear though. You see yourself as a "consumer" while I thought you were a cacher. You see AEs as a marketing term because dollars are the true value you perceive and that's the saddest part of these continuing diatribes. The fact that you can't perceive a difference between a person making an LE for themselves and a person making an AE as a special gift to someone else is even sadder. If the only true value of a geocoin to you is based on how much it's worth in dollars then you should seriously consider something else to fill your time with (maybe daytrading? since dollars seem so important to your arguements). Your sad perspective is the epitomy of what is destroying the whole point of geocoins. People are being so consumed with how much is it worth in money that they're forgetting how much it's worth in smiles, gratitude and human kindness. They're forgetting why they came to be. They're just a shiny new toy to squabble over in the schoolyard.

 

So go ahead and try to tear down something wonderful. You're doing a knock-up job so far. I hope it brings you true and lasting joy. I hope those consumer perceived dollar values bring you as much lasting joy as the generosity, smiles and good spirits my AEs are bringing to me. So bring it on. Let's see those true colors people. Where do you stand? Are you just in it as a "consumer" or are you cachers? Go ahead and shout all you want, but I think we're already starting to understand where you're coming from. Moun10Bike would probably be wretching by now if he to read this far down. :)

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As silly as I think it is silly to see someone break up another post and respond to it bit by bit, I feel the need to respond to Fox&Hound's post. So . . . here goes.

 

You have made one thing abundantly clear though. You see yourself as a "consumer" while I thought you were a cacher.

I am a cacher and I am consumer of geocoins. The two pursuits are not mutually exclusive. I have quite a few geocoins that were given to me as gifts and which I have received in trade which I appreciate greatly.

 

You see AEs as a marketing term because dollars are the true value you perceive and that's the saddest part of these continuing diatribes.

Nope, I see AE as a marketing term because that is how I see it used most often at the moment. I personally agree with many points in your earlier post about what you think an AE coin is. Unfortunately, many others do not share your point of view. I believe that at least one other poster referred to AE coins as "payment" for a design were artists editions. I'm under the impression that some geocoin companies see them as "payment" as well. Whereas I agree that a limited gratuity might rightly be called an artist edition, a series of special coins as payment for a design isn't much, if any, different from any other LE. When artists sell those coins at premium prices with AE in the description, it has become a marketing term.

 

The fact that you can't perceive a difference between a person making an LE for themselves and a person making an AE as a special gift to someone else is even sadder.

That arguement neglects the fact that many coins that are called AE (and, I believe the majority of them) are simply LEs offered as payment - not special gifts.

 

If the only true value of a geocoin to you is based on how much it's worth in dollars then you should seriously consider something else to fill your time with (maybe daytrading? since dollars seem so important to your arguements).

Be wary when ascribing motives to other people, and please, don't presume to tell me what I should do with my time. I don't buy geocoins as an investment. (Those in the boxes that I referred to are gererally awaiting activation and release - or trade for coins that I can activate and release) If I worried so much about money, I'd think AEs were a great opportunity to turn a profit. (Although I won't condemn those who want to turn a profit either. I don't require that everyone shares my principles and/or standards)

 

I'm actually a bit of a cheap SOB. The usual reason I buy geocoins is to release them into caches. I want the best price possible for a quality product so that I can watch it travel and share the joy of finding geocoins in geocaches. I don't have any AEs, and I have relatively few LEs. I haven't hidden many caches (I want those that I hide to be special in some way), so I choose to give something back to geocaching through the coins that I share freely. I'm sort of honored that a local cacher told me that I was one of two people that got him into geocoins through all the coins I left in local caches. Spreading joy is the PRIMARY reason I buy geocoins. If you look at the geocoins in my profile, you'll see that all but one are travellers (the Magellen Armed is a way to "discover" me).

 

Your sad perspective is the epitomy of what is destroying the whole point of geocoins. People are being so consumed with how much is it worth in money that they're forgetting how much it's worth in smiles, gratitude and human kindness. They're forgetting why they came to be. They're just a shiny new toy to squabble over in the schoolyard.

I basically agree with the above. It is sad that what I wrote is my perspective of AE geocoins. Unfortunatelly I, and apparently a few others, see that as were AE coins have gone. I do know why geocoins came to be (at least I think I do) - geocoins came to be to be moved like TBs from cache to cache! I can understand why people like to collect them, but I also think its sad that the drive to collect and hold on to them ultimately decreased the likelyhood that they will be found where they belong the most - in geocaches. AE, XLE and other "specially" minted geocoins are nice shiny trinkets, but the vast majority of them will never see the inside of a cache container. (I have read that you have dropped some in geocaches. I think that's awesome and well within the spirit of the geocaching community!)

 

After I re-read my reply I came to think it's rather arrogant to presume the "whole point of geocoins." Like geocaching, geocoins have a different "point" to different people. There is no single "point" of of them.

 

So go ahead and try to tear down something wonderful. You're doing a knock-up job so far. I hope it brings you true and lasting joy.

I'm not trying to tear anything down. I'm commenting on my perspective of the world as I see it. It does not, nor will it, bring me joy to see something which started as an expression of kindness turn into yet another marketing scheme.

 

I hope those consumer perceived dollar values bring you as much lasting joy as the generosity, smiles and good spirits my AEs are bringing to me.

I hope your AEs do continue to warm your heart and make you smile. I wll continue to get my smiles by buying and releasing geocoins and reading the logs of people who are happy to have found their first geocoin in a geocache - or who appreciate that someone let their geocoin travel free rather than keep it cooped up in a binder. Others may get joy by supplementing their income and better providing for themselves and/or their families. I hope that there is room in the world for all three perspectives.

 

So bring it on. Let's see those true colors people. Where do you stand? Are you just in it as a "consumer" or are you cachers?

Consumer - I think commercial geocoins are great. They help spread the joy of geocoins to the masses. I remember when editions sold out in a few minutes. Cool coins were almost impossible to get unless you had a couple $k to generate your own coin for trade or you were very lucky. I certainly wouldn't choose to go back to those days. In my opinion, the quality and creativity inspired by the commercialization of geocoins has been beneficial. In ~1100 caches, I've found around 50 geocoins. All of them have basically been commercial. I've never found a non-trackable personal geocoin. I'm sure that they are cool, but I think the current quality and accessabilty of geocoins is even better.

 

If geocoins to you are souveniers of fond memories of cachers and friends met - GREAT, there's nothing wrong with that. But that is not all geocoins can be. You, and I, can have our memories and enjoy the widely available creativity of others. And, some of us will continue to place a lot of geocoins in caches.

 

AEs, LEs, XLEs have their place too. Some use them as you envision, others as a way to receive just compensation for their creative efforts. Some might even envision them as get rich quick schemes. I generally won't pay extra for the cache of a LE coin, but others are willing to and that is OK with me. Purchase of a "rare" geocoin may not be as special as receiving it as a gift, but I assume that it is special to many of those purchasers.

 

Moun10Bike would probably be wretching by now if he to read this far down. :)

I've never met Moun10Bike and, even if I had, I wouldn't stoop to assuming what his reactions would be. I'm just as happy to speak for myself.

 

Time will inexorably move on and things will change. We might not like all the changes, but if we don't move on we will be left behind. The best thing to do is accept the inevetability of change and work to improve those things which we dislike. Grousing that things were better in the "good old days" may play well to a small choir, but it is a sermon largely ignored by those living for the future.

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For the different versions of the any coin release, I have yet to see anything more that an metal type or a finish or a paint color that differentiates that coin from another in the set between the so called AE versions and a regular edition.

 

There are versions of coins that have been released in .999 Silver, Gold Leaf, and other substantial metal additions. These changes add significantly to the value of the coin, no matter what the market.

 

So... I'm getting ready to release my Acme geocoin set... lets see...

 

absurd.jpg

 

Wonder how long before we get to this level of pricing tiers?

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I believe that at least one other poster referred to AE coins as "payment" for a design were artists editions. I'm under the impression that some geocoin companies see them as "payment" as well. Whereas I agree that a limited gratuity might rightly be called an artist edition, a series of special coins as payment for a design isn't much, if any, different from any other LE. When artists sell those coins at premium prices with AE in the description, it has become a marketing term.

 

Be wary when ascribing motives to other people, and please, don't presume to tell me what I should do with my time. I don't require that everyone shares my principles and/or standards)

 

Spreading joy is the PRIMARY reason I buy geocoins. I basically agree with the above. It is sad that what I wrote is my perspective of AE geocoins. Unfortunatelly I, and apparently a few others, see that as were AE coins have gone. I do know why geocoins came to be (at least I think I do) - geocoins came to be to be moved like TBs from cache to cache! AE, XLE and other "specially" minted geocoins are nice shiny trinkets, but the vast majority of them will never see the inside of a cache container.

 

After I re-read my reply I came to think it's rather arrogant to presume the "whole point of geocoins." Like geocaching, geocoins have a different "point" to different people. There is no single "point" of of them.

 

I'm not trying to tear anything down. I'm commenting on my perspective of the world as I see it.

 

I hope that there is room in the world for all three perspectives.

 

AEs, LEs, XLEs have their place too. Some use them as you envision, others as a way to receive just compensation for their creative efforts. Some might even envision them as get rich quick schemes. I generally won't pay extra for the cache of a LE coin, but others are willing to and that is OK with me. Purchase of a "rare" geocoin may not be as special as receiving it as a gift, but I assume that it is special to many of those purchasers.

 

I've never met Moun10Bike and, even if I had, I wouldn't stoop to assuming what his reactions would be. I'm just as happy to speak for myself.

 

Time will inexorably move on and things will change. We might not like all the changes, but if we don't move on we will be left behind. The best thing to do is accept the inevetability of change and work to improve those things which we dislike. Grousing that things were better in the "good old days" may play well to a small choir, but it is a sermon largely ignored by those living for the future.

 

I can't imagine that replying to this will make any difference, but I'll try anyway. Since the original point of this thread keeps getting buried. This thread is specific to defining what an AE is. If you want to talk about the degrading use of types of coins, let's start another thread. Keeping that in mind...

 

You wrote very eloquently and clearly and I will endeavor to do the same in reply keeping the OP in mind.

 

Whether a payment or a gratuity really shouldn't change the fact that an AE is a coin given only to the artist to do with as they will. It's may not seem like much of a difference to someone from outside the exchange, but I assure you that to an artist it is. It's just about the coolest thing that can happen. What an artist or anyone else does later with it doesn't matter. We're defining what an AE is not how the term has sometimes been used.

 

I appreciate your advice to be wary as I wouldn't presume to know exactly what your motives are. However, if you read what I said again it was a hypothetical. "If the only true value of a geocoin to you is based on how much it's worth in dollars then you should seriously consider something else to fill your time with." IF you find yourself feeling this way, then I stand by my advice. If how you see something being used determines your definition of what it is, then you would be well served to look elsewhere in this case. I don't care if you share my principles or standards. We're defining what an AE is. Telling me about how you see it being used in a rather limited basis doesn't change what it is or how it came to be.

 

You wrote: "Spreading joy is the PRIMARY reason I buy geocoins. I basically agree with the above. It is sad that what I wrote is my perspective of AE geocoins. Unfortunatelly I, and apparently a few others, see that as were AE coins have gone."

 

Good for you! :) It is sad to think that the perspective has taken on a negative. What bothers me most is that you write as if you see all AEs in a negative. This is the crux of my problem. How they're being seen in a few cases is how people are trying to define what they are in all cases. How can you make an assumption (I'm not saying you are, I'm asking a question) about an entire body of work when you only know about a few cases? Isn't the very basis of stereotyping?

 

You wrote: "After I re-read my reply I came to think it's rather arrogant to presume the "whole point of geocoins." Uhm, no. They have grown tremendously in variation and even have tracking numbers so they can travel, but the whole point was decided by the man who invented them. They were a personal signature item meant to be shared. Now they're even available as commercial coins for those who can't afford to have a personal made. They may have evolved, but I wouldn't attempt to redefine them because I see them being used in way I don't like personally.

 

You wrote: "AE, XLE and other "specially" minted geocoins are nice shiny trinkets, but the vast majority of them will never see the inside of a cache container" Really? You can account for all of them and state that as a fact? That's interesting. Care to share where you're getting your facts?

 

You say you're not tearing anything down, but I don't understand how you see that to be true. One person booing is louder than ten shouts of support. You offer your perspective which is entirely the point of these threads, but you must realize that unsupported negative claims would equate to tearing down the efforts to define what an AE is.

 

You wrote: "I've never met Moun10Bike and, even if I had, I wouldn't stoop to assuming what his reactions would be. I'm just as happy to speak for myself." Although I've never had the pleasure to meet Moun10Bike in person, he was quite wonderful in our exchanges. He personally defined for me the geocoin, signature items and other treasures. It's not "stooping" to relate to you what he related to me. His reaction would be likely be quite negative I'm sure considering how he feels about the direction some geocoins are taking and he has said so.

 

You wrote: "Time will inexorably move on and things will change. We might not like all the changes, but if we don't move on we will be left behind. The best thing to do is accept the inevetability of change and work to improve those things which we dislike. Grousing that things were better in the "good old days" may play well to a small choir, but it is a sermon largely ignored by those living for the future." Wow, and here I thought I was trying to move past a few negative instances to work toward establishing the definition of an AE. I thought that was the point of this thread.

Edited by fox-and-the-hound
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Great post Chris -

 

And, I think the bottom line is - regardless of personal opinion:

 

An artist edition is a limited version/series of coins only available from the artist/designer.

 

The 'opinion' can be that its a marketing term, etc... but it still holds true - An Artist Edition IS a coin edition that can not be traded for or purchased from ANYONE but the artist.

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And, I think the bottom line is - regardless of personal opinion:

 

An artist edition is a limited version/series of coins only available from the artist/designer.

 

To be on topic for a moment, I do agree with CB on the above statement with the possible semantic change to "initially available from the artist/designer." Once it leaves the artist's hands anything can happen. The coin is an AE because of what it is nad what it represents, not because of who owns it.

 

To chris, in principle, I thought we were close to being on the same page - perhaps I was wrong. My first exposure to the term AE was in the description of items for sale. Until your post in this thread on it's original use, I had only seen AE used as a marketing term similar to LE, XLE etc. From rechecking other posts, I don't think I have been alone in this perspective. I'm sorry if the use as observed by non-artists conflicts with your ideal, but I wrote about the use of AE use as perceived by, at least some, end-users. Please don't let the most public use of the term diminish your enjoyment of coins graciously offered to you in thanks for your efforts. A special series of coins given to me in exchange for my artistic efforts would be very sepcial to me regardless of their name (and in fact, the couple of LEs I have from this are unlikely to leave my posession).

 

Now, it's time to find some geocaches :) .

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I am sure I am about to anger some people but that isn't my intent and no disrespect is intended. I do not say these things to rile others and understand that sometimes we just can't see ourselves for whatever reason and at times things just need to be pointed out to be seen. It is in THIS sprit that I will proceed.

 

While I do not know evey artist, the ones I do know I like and respect for the work they ALL put into creating great coin designs. I don't believe anyone is saying anything "bad" (I know I am not) about the artists or the coins they are given as payment for their design work. I personally don't give a rats whisker if these coins are sold for a profit (everyone is entitled to make a living), given away or dropped in cans by the recipient of these coins. I will say that the artists that have replied here have a good argument and I see where they are coming from in defense of using the AE term. I also believe others viewpoints, including myself, are just as valid when they say it has the appearence of a marketing manuever.

 

So what really is the problem? What is personally troubling to me, and I suspect others as well, is that the artists are the ones who originated the "Artist Edition" designation rather than the community at large. As a result this designation definitely comes across as a little bit self serving and presumptuous. If the folks using it were honest with themselves they might see that this course of action may not be in their best interest. IMHO the artists would best serve themselves if they simply let the community determine the value and label the coins in question take on. No one will argue that these coins aren't hard to find so why all the defense of a specific term used to reference a coin type? It takes time but let the community at large shake out the term it will use to identify it whether it be AE, XLE, XHTF, whatever. By pushing this label on the community with such vigor the unintended consequences are that many will see this as a marketing ploy and push back. I believe this is the crux of the current situation in this thread.

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