OK ethics people

June 6, 2007

I helped a new cacher place a cache.I don't own the cache,only he does.There's already been an FTF.Can I find it or no?

(No this is not hypothetical-There really is a cache I helped with here.PM me for the GC# if you like but I'm not posting it)

2.7k · June 6, 2007

I am only responsible for my numbers. I can only speak for myself. I could not "FIND" it because I would already know where it is.

I have logged finds on Caches that I LATER adopted. I have logged Caches where someone else in the group found it 50 feet away. I would not do this. Let your conscience be your guide.

June 6, 2007

I think no. The purpose of the cache is the hunt more than the cache itself. I found a cache once. Then went out with my brother-in-law to the same cache which was his first. I let him do all the leg work and gps stuff, so he found it legit. I did not log that visit as a find. If anything, post a note saying that you were there. But a found it log is not quite accurate.

9.3k · June 6, 2007

There is no true answer to that question, as it's not addressed in the guidelines. There are some who will claim that, since you know where it is, you can't technically "find" it, which seems to ring true with me. I think, that if enough time passes that you couldn't find it without a GPSr, you wouldn't need to beat yourself up over it. About a year ago I helped my daughter set up a multi, and I could tell you it's in the Wiregrass Prairie Preserve, but I couldn't find it to save my life, without hopping through all the hoops that any other cacher would go through. Some day I'll do a maintenance run on it, and if I manage to locate the final, I'll log a find.

18.9k · June 6, 2007

Under my current best practice beliefs (has evolved over time) - the answer would have to be "no". Simply because you already knew where it was and therefore you cannot "find" it. Much the same as placing it yourself.

June 6, 2007

I wouldn't do it. And yes, the same thing has happened to me! I went on a hike with a buddy when he placed a cache and never thought about it until we were at the location... I'll never get to find this one! :lol:

In fact, he ended up making me "co-hider" on the cache page.

Now we don't talk about hide plans, locations, etc. so we can enjoy hunting each other's hides.

DCC

1.8k · June 6, 2007

I likely wouldn't log it, but I wouldn't think more or less anyone else based on their decision in this situation.

June 6, 2007

I can't believe you even have to ask this question!!! I wouldn't claim it as a find. That said, you're the only one who can defend your own honor!!!

1.4k · June 6, 2007

I helped a new cacher place a cache.I don't own the cache,only he does.There's already been an FTF.Can I find it or no?

(No this is not hypothetical-There really is a cache I helped with here.PM me for the GC# if you like but I'm not posting it)

I think you already know the answer to this question, but you can't find something that you had a hand in hiding can you?

On the other side of this coin I commend you for what you did, taking one for the team. You've sacrificed your own fun so that others will be able to enjoy it. But most of all, you've helped a new cacher "get it right" and understand things about hiding a cache that are mostly learned through trial and error and often at the expense of others.

June 6, 2007

This is in a some kind of gray sone. But as long as you do not claim FTF I think it is ok. I have seen this happen from time to time. You did find the cache. And you did sign the log. Thus it is a legimite find.

Actually discovering TBs and Coins (on events mostly) is allowed on GC. So why not.

1.5k · June 6, 2007

I'm in the not a find category myself. It would be nice if TPTB had a "shared-hider" option so you could have that cache show up as one that you helped hide, but since the site doesn't, I'm in the boat of how did you find something you helped hide?

Others have differing opinions of course and in smiley town, it doesn't really matter in the end if you choose to log it or not.

June 6, 2007

Yeah,I figured most everyone would be on the no side. :angry:

I was honestly divided about it,as new finds are far and few between on our FOB (5 just turned into four,as one was archived :lol: ) and it's FAR and few between to get a new cache here.Even knowing where it is and the trip to go log it is more fun than waiting for someone to hide another one.

I think I'll post a pic or two of the area or cache site and log a note...the hides in Iraq aren't usually anything above a 3...rarely you'll see one.

I think the real smiley here was getting a newbie hooked on the sport.

Edit-I should add if I was at home this wouldn't even have been a consideration.

Edited June 6, 2007 by vtmtnman

June 6, 2007

There is no true answer to that question, as it's not addressed in the guidelines. There are some who will claim that, since you know where it is, you can't technically "find" it, which seems to ring true with me. I think, that if enough time passes that you couldn't find it without a GPSr, you wouldn't need to beat yourself up over it. About a year ago I helped my daughter set up a multi, and I could tell you it's in the Wiregrass Prairie Preserve, but I couldn't find it to save my life, without hopping through all the hoops that any other cacher would go through. Some day I'll do a maintenance run on it, and if I manage to locate the final, I'll log a find.

This seems reasonable to me

4.5k · June 6, 2007

This is in a some kind of gray sone. But as long as you do not claim FTF I think it is ok. I have seen this happen from time to time. You did find the cache. And you did sign the log. Thus it is a legimite find.

Actually discovering TBs and Coins (on events mostly) is allowed on GC. So why not.

There is no gray zone here. If he helped hide the cache and knows right where it is, then how can he go out and find it? :lol:

I've helped hide several caches around our area and since i know right where they are planted, it would be silly for me to go out and say i found them. I put these on my ignore list to keep them from causing any grief in a nearest unfound list or pocket query. I also have them on my watchlist since i am co-owner and like to see when they are logged.

24.7k · June 6, 2007

Under my current best practice beliefs (has evolved over time) - the answer would have to be "no"....

Same here:

In older times I'd log it just to get it off my "nearest caches list" or to balance out that even though it's Co-hide It won't show up as one of my hides. (I wish it would).

Now I watch them and ignore them. That gives me find logs, and clears it from my nearest caches list. My numbers are high enough to where one cache doesn't matter.

June 6, 2007

I'm only a newb here, so you can take this with a grain of salt but, what do the numbers really mean? This is not some sort of competition were the one with the most finds wins a prize, this is for fun I thought. If you helped someone hide it and you know where it is, why would you log it as a find? Again, I am new to the Geocache community, and I began this adventure for the fun of it, not to see how many I could find or how many more I could find then the next guy. This is just my opionion and I don't want to offend anyone who has been doing this for many many years.

38.2k · June 6, 2007

I wouldn't do it. Seems silly to "find" something when I already know where it is. The whole turning your back while the other guy hides it doesn't cut it for me either. Basically your hand was held 99 percent of the way there and you know where it is. Maybe not exactly which tree stump, but you have a pretty good idea.

1.8k · June 6, 2007

Drive to the parking area, then start walloping yourself over the head with your GPSr. Continue until you're completely disoriented and have forgotten where the cache is hidden. Now, go find it and log it with pride!

9.3k · June 6, 2007

There is no gray zone here. If he helped hide the cache and knows right where it is, then how can he go out and find it?

The grey area would start growing some time after the hide. I was instrumental in placing my daughter's cache, and I can tell you with certainty, that, 1.5 years, and a few hundred caches later, I have absolutely no clue where it is. For me to do anything with this cache, I would need to find it first.

June 6, 2007

I agree with the majority. Since you already know where it is, you can hardly log it as a find. I would probably post a note for it stating my involvement in the cache......

June 6, 2007

how about a compromise:

Go find it - using your GPS the whole way. Then sign the log as a "note" then log it as such online also.

Nope - won't go towards #'s - but I bet you don't care about that.

Yup - like a DNF - it will add to the history of the cache - and your friend can always look back at that and smile knowing he hid his first cache with a friend. And THAT is worth alot in my book.

PS: are you overseas? civilian or mil.?

Edit: Pepsi Man beat me to it - so I agree with him! (but not in the Best Soda/Pop dept.)

Edited June 6, 2007 by wvnewbie

24.7k · June 6, 2007

...There is no gray zone here....

Here is the gray zone.

Two of us find a cache. We can both log it. It shows up in our profiles.

Two of us hide a cache. Only one of us can truly list it. It only shows up in one profile.

The real solution is a joint hide. Both are owners. It shows up correctly in the profile. If there is a problem the approver can yell at both at the same time.

The cheezy soltuion is to "Find the cache". Now you find count is one too high and your hide count is one too low. But taken together it's where it needs to be. Plus the cache is not on your nearest caches list.

People are solving a problem left by the gray area. Others may not like the solution.

It's actually the same with event only caches. There is no event only cache log and so they are solving a differnet problem via the only means they have at their disposal. Since Event only caches are important to a lot of events and a lot of fun...there really is an issue to be solved. I'm now a fan of adding an Event Only Cache Log somehow to the site.

24.7k · June 6, 2007

There is no gray zone here. If he helped hide the cache and knows right where it is, then how can he go out and find it?

The grey area would start growing some time after the hide. I was instrumental in placing my daughter's cache, and I can tell you with certainty, that, 1.5 years, and a few hundred caches later, I have absolutely no clue where it is. For me to do anything with this cache, I would need to find it first.

Heck the way finders move caches, you often have to find your own cache even when you did know where it was. I've actually had to email the last finder to ask him where my cache was because I could not find it and he did.

3.9k · June 6, 2007

I helped a new cacher place a cache.I don't own the cache,only he does.There's already been an FTF.Can I find it or no?

(No this is not hypothetical-There really is a cache I helped with here.PM me for the GC# if you like but I'm not posting it)

Speaking for myself, I would be tempted to go visit the cache and "find" it, and then log an online find, if and only if the cache has a Terrain rating of 4.5 or higher and it takes a lot of time, work, sweat and creativity to even reach the cache and retrieve it. And, on the other hand, if it just a quick walk in the woods, and if I had seen the new cacher make the hide, I would not bother to log a find online.

June 6, 2007

After much thought and debate in another thread... I have to side on the go back, follow your GPS and find it again. Log it online as a find. I would not log it immediately after placing it, and I would not log it as a FTF. If there were a way it could show up on my hide count, I would not log it as a find.

There are people out there that will now look upon me with much disdain... but after a certain comment in another thread I have no solidly made up my mind that caching is about the enjoyment you have, the logs (find, dnf, etc...) are about the pleasure you receive from the caching experience.

The reasons I would log it as a find (especially the one which you are talking about) are as follows:

1) I like to look at the caches near me or near the areas that I have cached in quickly see which ones I have done and/or am not planning on doing again in the near future. When I look on the cache page of caches near me, it will show up with a check mark and a grey bar which lets me know that I have had an experience with that particular cache which I can return to the log and reexperience.

2) Without that check mark and grey bar... I will constantly pop on my list of caches that I want to visit.

3) I don't want to put it on my ignore list... because then I can't see it.

4) This is a particulary unique cache based on its location... and that is something I want to remember.

For me... I'd log it as a find... if people lose respect for me because of it? Well... I wasn't looking for their respect to begin with... so no lose there.

24.7k · June 6, 2007

...For me... I'd log it as a find... if people lose respect for me because of it? Well... I wasn't looking for their respect to begin with... so no lose there.

Rodney Dangerfield must have been a geocacher. He DNFd respect, and he was looking.

4.5k · June 7, 2007

There is no gray zone here. If he helped hide the cache and knows right where it is, then how can he go out and find it?

The grey area would start growing some time after the hide. I was instrumental in placing my daughter's cache, and I can tell you with certainty, that, 1.5 years, and a few hundred caches later, I have absolutely no clue where it is. For me to do anything with this cache, I would need to find it first.

Heck the way finders move caches, you often have to find your own cache even when you did know where it was. I've actually had to email the last finder to ask him where my cache was because I could not find it and he did.

Was going to add this before RK's post but got tied up on something.

If i thought like that then i guess i could go ahead and log a find on one of my own caches since someone took it upon themselves to move it. Afterall, i had to go find it in order to put it back where it belonged.

I just don't see why it's so important for some people to have that dang smilie?

7.3k · June 7, 2007

The question I've heard over and over in this thread is, "How can you find something when you already know where it is?", as the answer to why this shouldn't be logged.

How about these situations:

1. You're caching with some people, and they find the cache before you do. You didn't find it, so how can you log it? But now, you know where it was hidden, so you can never find it again.

2. You see a new cache pop up in your town. Because of the map and/or the description, you know exactly where the cache is. So you can't log it, cause you already know where it is.

I'm sure there are more examples then this, I just thought of a couple off the top of my head. I think that people get a bit silly over these things.

June 7, 2007

You're caching with some people, and they find the cache before you do. You didn't find it, so how can you log it? But now, you know where it was hidden, so you can never find it again.

What a great point!!!!! That's why some of us don't "Geo-Herd." By going solo, I know that I "found" the cache and was not just "along for the ride." :lol:

Geo-Solo!!!! It's the only way to know that "you" really found it!!!!!!!!

Edited June 7, 2007 by eagletrek

June 7, 2007

Well they have already thrashed me in here so you might as well read this thread LOL :lol: regarding the whole issue or something along the same line

LOLOL

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...=163889&hl=

Edited June 7, 2007 by hike n'bike

5.6k · June 7, 2007

The question I've heard over and over in this thread is, "How can you find something when you already know where it is?", as the answer to why this shouldn't be logged.

How about these situations:

1. You're caching with some people, and they find the cache before you do. You didn't find it, so how can you log it? But now, you know where it was hidden, so you can never find it again.

2. You see a new cache pop up in your town. Because of the map and/or the description, you know exactly where the cache is. So you can't log it, cause you already know where it is.

I'm sure there are more examples then this, I just thought of a couple off the top of my head. I think that people get a bit silly over these things.

Almost exactly what I was going to write. Aother point, what about those "replacement" caches in honor of some oldie, place in the same location? If you found the original, you can't find the new one just because you know where it is?

It's very silly to agonize over this - log it if you want.

9.3k · June 7, 2007

I think that people get a bit silly over these things.

Exactly. It's as silly as two religions arguing over who has the better invisible friend. I was thinking about logging a find on Vinny's PUC-13 cache, since I've visually located it. After all, we can't have more than one defenition of "find", right? :lol:

7.3k · June 7, 2007

The funny thing is, I can get a bit strong about most of the logging "rules", but not that one.

24.7k · June 7, 2007

...1. You're caching with some people, and they find the cache before you do. You didn't find it, so how can you log it? But now, you know where it was hidden, so you can never find it again.

2. You see a new cache pop up in your town. Because of the map and/or the description, you know exactly where the cache is. So you can't log it, cause you already know where it is....

I can't resist!

You cache with a group. Before you got there you didn't know where it was. When you left you do. That means you found it otherwise, you could not say that. After all if you didn't find it, you would not know where it is.

Next.

You only think you know exactly where it is. But you will never know until you go look. It may be small but there is still an element of suprise.

7.3k · June 7, 2007

Before you got there you didn't know where it was. When you left you do.

Hm...I could say the same thing if I helped someone hide a cache. :lol:

June 7, 2007

Well they have already thrashed me in here so you might as well read this thread LOL regarding the whole issue or something along the same line

LOLOL

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...=163889&hl=

Yet again I get blasted about not doing a forum search.... It's funny...Everytime I do one it never returns any matches to the topic.Then whenever I don't do one there's fifteen topics already.

wvnewbie-Yes I'm overseas(I'm positive,afterall I did have to get up in the middle of writing this response because a nice big VBIED went off...fun fun),I'm civilian.

24.7k · June 7, 2007

Before you got there you didn't know where it was. When you left you do.

Hm...I could say the same thing if I helped someone hide a cache.

Good one.

7.3k · June 7, 2007

Before you got there you didn't know where it was. When you left you do.

Hm...I could say the same thing if I helped someone hide a cache.

Good one.

Why, thank you.

June 7, 2007

imo, go ahead and log it as find - if you go out and actually find it. See, it might need maintenance or it might have been moved or more. So if you were there when it was hid, you can still find it afterwards.

4.5k · June 7, 2007

...1. You're caching with some people, and they find the cache before you do. You didn't find it, so how can you log it? But now, you know where it was hidden, so you can never find it again.

2. You see a new cache pop up in your town. Because of the map and/or the description, you know exactly where the cache is. So you can't log it, cause you already know where it is....

I can't resist!

You cache with a group. Before you got there you didn't know where it was. When you left you do. That means you found it otherwise, you could not say that. After all if you didn't find it, you would not know where it is.

Next.

You only think you know exactly where it is. But you will never know until you go look. It may be small but there is still an element of suprise.

We can nit pick this all day long but there really is no reason to. This thread was started by the OP who stated that he helped hide a cache. I'm taking it that he was at the cache location when it was hidden and knows exactly where it is hidden. If this is the case, then he shouldn't log it as a find.

24.7k · June 7, 2007

...We can nit pick this all day long...

If a cache falls in the forst but there is nobody there to hear it, can I log it at an event?

June 7, 2007

If it was on a page of my cache searches will all check marks but that one... I would log it.

I'm OCD like that though :lol:

June 7, 2007

...We can nit pick this all day long...

If a cache falls in the forst but there is nobody there to hear it, can I log it at an event?

:anibad:

June 7, 2007

Go find it. Sign the logbook. Log it online as a find. Never ask such a complicated question again!

June 7, 2007

I can't believe you even have to ask this question!!! I wouldn't claim it as a find. That said, you're the only one who can defend your own honor!!!

I had to ask this question because obviously I was divided on the issue.The fact that I asked about it before doing so shows I wanted a vote on it basically.It's better than some who'd just log it and not ask.

3.8k · June 7, 2007

I helped a new cacher place a cache.I don't own the cache,only he does.There's already been an FTF.Can I find it or no?

(No this is not hypothetical-There really is a cache I helped with here.PM me for the GC# if you like but I'm not posting it)

This is not a question of ethics. Either log it or not. You've got my blessing to do either one with no hard feelings.

6.5k · June 7, 2007

Yeah,I figured most everyone would be on the no side.

I was honestly divided about it,as new finds are far and few between on our FOB (5 just turned into four,as one was archived ) and it's FAR and few between to get a new cache here.Even knowing where it is and the trip to go log it is more fun than waiting for someone to hide another one.

I think I'll post a pic or two of the area or cache site and log a note...the hides in Iraq aren't usually anything above a 3...rarely you'll see one.

I think the real smiley here was getting a newbie hooked on the sport.

Edit-I should add if I was at home this wouldn't even have been a consideration.

How can you find something if you know exactly where it is hidden?

Next time turn your back for the last 100 yards so you do not know exactly where it is hidden.

And you are right that there are better smileys out there then adding one to your find count.

June 7, 2007

In THEORY, there's a loophole around all of that. If you can pull a favour from another geocacher, have 'em hide it about... 30 feet away or whatnot, just like... shortly before you plan to be there, and give you the "new" coordinates. Then you can go 'find' it, and put it back to normal

Although even still that's a REALLY iffy situation, because then you're not finding the cache in the hiding spot it was made to go in.

June 7, 2007

Well they have already thrashed me in here so you might as well read this thread LOL regarding the whole issue or something along the same line

LOLOL

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...=163889&hl=

Yet again I get blasted about not doing a forum search.... It's funny...Everytime I do one it never returns any matches to the topic.Then whenever I don't do one there's fifteen topics already.

wvnewbie-Yes I'm overseas(I'm positive,afterall I did have to get up in the middle of writing this response because a nice big VBIED went off...fun fun),I'm civilian.

I think those are the AQ approved caches that some people try and find... I guess the VBIED would be like a moving cache. I'm sure those have been grandfathered in by the AQCaching.com... or you'd only be finding the IED's.

The question is... did you log it?

June 7, 2007

I helped a new cacher place a cache.I don't own the cache,only he does.There's already been an FTF.Can I find it or no?

(No this is not hypothetical-There really is a cache I helped with here.PM me for the GC# if you like but I'm not posting it)

Sure! Go for that smiley! Ever heard of "selective amnesia"?

You just "forget" allllllllll about that cache! Then.......enter the cords........VOILA!

OK ethics people

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