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Letterbox vs. Letterbox Hybrid


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In another thread there was some discussion on exactly how a hybrid is different from a letterbox. The gist of the thread was that A letterbox starts you out at a certain spot and then you follow clues to find the letterbox. A Hybrid could do that, or it could just give you the coordinates for the box and you find it just like a cache.

 

Does the hybrid serve any real purpose? Would it be better to drop hybrids and list letterboxes which stick to the oringal idea. Start at a spot (which your GPS takes you to, or which is described) follow the clues, use a stamp. At least it would be consistant and a fun variation to a cache.

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As long as reviewers able to check distance from cache to other caches in the area.

One way of doing it that I heard of on Atlas Quest was to have the coordinates at the top of the page take you to the start of the clues (just as you suggested) then also have an additional waypoint for the actual cache, so it can be found either by letterboxing or gps.

For those with no gps it shouldn't be too hard to map the starting coordinates on line before they leave home.

 

I agree it would be nice if there was a bit more consistance.

Maybe that way more people would be inclined to place one at there in addition to placing tradional caches.

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Wouldn't that make it more of a puzzle/unknown type cache?

 

Yes, if it was a cache and not a letterbox it would.

 

Same general idea, different traditions.

 

I'm not sure if this site actually approves letterbox style puzzle/offset caches since they don't really require the use of a GPS for the "stages" or clues in a letterbox.

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Would it be better to drop hybrids and list letterboxes which stick to the original idea. Start at a spot (which your GPS takes you to, or which is described) follow the clues, use a stamp. At least it would be consistant and a fun variation to a cache.

 

I think this would be great, so long as the format was closer to the current geocache format than the Waymarking format (which would make sense since there would be a physical container). I did a letterbox or two way back when and while I really like the concept, the user interface on the current LB site leaves alot to be desired, IMO. I think LBs would really take off if it were easier to browse/choose LBs in an area of interest.

Edited by gnbrotz
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...Does the hybrid serve any real purpose?

 

Thanks for the question RK. For me the hybrid by it's simplest definition...a box with a stamp in it (and a logbook)...is a nice change from trinkets. Instead of trading trinkets, stamp images are traded. For me, the stamp images are collectables. And it's even more collectable when it's someone's own personal piece of art, a hand-carved stamp image. I also find that I enjoy my letterbox logbook even more with the addition of stamped signature images, drawings, stickers and the dog paw prints - they personalize the logbook and add a little more fun to an already enjoyable past-time.

 

Regarding methods of finding a letterbox - I like the traditional method of finding a letterbox and try to adhere to it, i.e. take the finder to a starting point (like a trailhead) and give them directions from there. Recently I started adding an additional waypoint that marks the location of the box, so those who prefer to hunt them the gps way can - but I wouldn't like to see it made a mandatory requirement. I find that most finders are reporting that they chose to find my letterboxes the traditional LB way with directions. If we had to pick one method over the other I'd choose the traditional letterbox method with the gps used to get to the start of the hunt but I hope we don't have to choose and can continue to enjoy the variety of letterbox hunting methods we currently have on the site.

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we were excitied to find our first "hybrid' recently and it turned out to be a waterproof match holder container up in a tree with only log pages. yes, there were some stamps made on the log but certainly no room for a stamp in the cache it's self or no room for swag. We were dissapointed, it really was a small/mirco cache vs. a 'hybrid'. so this is an example that should not have hybrids due to the fact hard to define & actually have a true 'hybrid'.

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Does the hybrid serve any real purpose?

 

Yes, it allows geocachers to place a container that will serve both communities.

 

Since that same container could serve both communities as a offset/puzzle cache or a regular cache. The hybrid itself doens't seem like anything useful. Especially since on this site, it doesn't have to conform to a letterboxing style.

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About a year or so ago, I thought there was a post from Jeremy where he said that Groundspeak was going to start a letterboxing site.

 

If I can find the post I'll Markwell it here.

 

Markwell

Now that would be "dope yo". :lol:

 

Seriously that would be cool if Groundspeak started a boxing site.More folks could get started in letterboxing,or geocaching for boxing.I wouldn't mind trying it.

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I did a letterbox or two way back when and while I really like the concept, the user interface on the current LB site leaves alot to be desired, IMO. I think LBs would really take off if it were easier to browse/choose LBs in an area of interest.

I suspect that the biggest hang-up for organizing letterboxes on the website is the lack of coordinates. Much of the browsing and searching on GC.com starts with a central point and a radius of interest. Also, there seems to be less variety in the size of a letterbox, because a stamp must be included, with a log book big enough for stamps, which means not having to sort based on size. On a positive note, there aren't lamppost micro letterboxes (for those who disdain that sort of thing)...

 

...unless we make letterbox hybrids. I am only just now working on making a stamp, and I feel that most geocachers might not understand all that goes into the letterbox concept. Personally, I think every geocacher should have a stamp or a sticker, to keep things colorful. A hybrid cache seems like a clash of cultures, though, mixing stamps and signatures.

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A hybrid cache seems like a clash of cultures, though, mixing stamps and signatures.

Our hybrids that were more box than cache I've archived and have made pure letterbox. The others are pretty much just a cache with a stamp.

 

In the beginning I was all fired up in trying to combine boxing and caching, but have come to the conclusion that it really isn't a good mix. You get a bastardizaton of both. The letterbox experience suffers the most.

 

As for the OP idea, I'm not sure if that is not available at present. I believe there was a concern over how hybrids were supposed to be listed, but I'm not sure there was ever a definitive answer. I mean, considering you can place a cache similar to the OP's suggestion of an offset with the listed coordinates pointing to the starting point and using clues to find the final. That happens already.

 

Also, what's wrong with having bogus coords for hybrids? You can have them for puzzles and boxes are inherently a coords-less type of hunt. Yeah, yeah, I know the hunt here has to incorporate grid coordinates somehow, but doesn't that further point to hybrids not being a good fit?

 

Plus, letterboxing has absolutely no restrictions on the types of clues it can have--including grid coordinates. Hybrids (a letterbox with a GPS coordinate clue) would actually fit better as a sub-set of letterboxing than the other way around.

 

I suspect that the biggest hang-up for organizing letterboxes on the website is the lack of coordinates.
No hang up what so ever. The box can be described within some zipcode, near some town, in some county, or what have you. Those things have coordinates. The system can present a list of the nearest boxes in the background. Of course, there wouldn't be the same granularity, but that doesn't really matter. How many folks use a zipcode for their Nearest Cache List listings? That's not much different.
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Does the hybrid serve any real purpose?

 

Yes, it allows geocachers to place a container that will serve both communities.

 

Since that same container could serve both communities as a offset/puzzle cache or a regular cache. The hybrid itself doens't seem like anything useful. Especially since on this site, it doesn't have to conform to a letterboxing style.

 

It doesn't need to conform to the letterboxing style. Reference it by coords and post it on geocaching.com. Reference it using clues and post the same container on AtlasQuest or Letterboxing.org. Both communities can then enjoy the hunt in the traditional manner of their sport.

 

It allows someone who enjoys both sports to use one container and location for their hide. Otherwise if I find a great spot that I would like to bring both geocachers and letterboxers to, I'd have to hide two containers. THAT seems pointless to me.

Edited by briansnat
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...It doesn't need to conform to the letterboxing style. ...

 

Because you were right in how this site views the hybrid, that brings us full circle.

 

If a letterbox hybrid doesn't need to confirm to a letterbox style it serves no useful purpose as it's own kind of cache. Without the style it's no different than the puzzle/offset type. Cross listing a cache does not take a special cache type. Which is why I posted the question. Should the Letterbox hybrid be replaced with a Letterbox cache that does conform to the letterbox style?

 

Per Jeremy the answer is that it's worth having a letterbox site, though he didn't cover replacing the hybrid type with a letterbox on this site.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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I guess we just need something to talk about here, huh?

 

The OP has never hidden any letterbox hybrids and only found 2. The majority of people who posted to this thread have found two or less with some having found none and hidden none. How irrelevant do we want to get? One person has hidden 16 and found 15. That makes one person who might be qualified to really take part in the discussion.

 

I'm not qualified to take part, either. (Maybe I'm just grumpy from having gotten up no the wrong side of the bed.)

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...The OP has never hidden any letterbox hybrids and only found 2....

 

Fair point. I didn't even know I was up to two. You can't see my letterbox find since it's not listed on this site as a hybrid or on any other site that I can find.

 

So far as I can tell you are qualified to have an opinion.

 

As for a letterbox style hide, I've gotten the impression that if I tried that it would not be approved due to the GPS usage rules even if the coords took you to the start point. I'd not have list it as a hybrid though since I don't have a stamp.

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...The OP has never hidden any letterbox hybrids and only found 2....

 

Fair point. I didn't even know I was up to two. You can't see my letterbox find since it's not listed on this site as a hybrid or on any other site that I can find.

 

So far as I can tell you are qualified to have an opinion.

 

As for a letterbox style hide, I've gotten the impression that if I tried that it would not be approved due to the GPS usage rules even if the coords took you to the start point. I'd not have list it as a hybrid though since I don't have a stamp.

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As for a letterbox style hide, I've gotten the impression that if I tried that it would not be approved due to the GPS usage rules even if the coords took you to the start point. I'd not have list it as a hybrid though since I don't have a stamp.

How about if the posted coords take you to the trailhead, from which point you follow LB-style clues. Put the final coords as an additional waypoint so that it would work for GPS-only users, too?

 

Or vice-versa... anyone who wants to follow the LB clues would need to read the cache description page so you could specify the coords to the trailhead there.

 

dave

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If a letterbox hybrid doesn't need to confirm to a letterbox style it serves no useful purpose as it's own kind of cache.

 

Sure it does. It allows an owner to serve both communities with one container

 

Without the style it's no different than the puzzle/offset type .

....or a traditional.

 

From a geocacher's perspective, yes.

 

Cross listing a cache does not take a special cache type.

 

Cross listing is not a requirement of a letterbox hybrid, but would make sense, though I understand some letterboxers do look here for hybrids.

 

The only actual requirement of a hybrid is the existence of a stamp.

 

Which is why I posted the question. Should the Letterbox hybrid be replaced with a Letterbox cache that does conform to the letterbox style?

 

No. This is a geocaching website. The hybrids serve both communities, but this website's primary purpose is to list geocaches.

Edited by briansnat
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We just found our first letterbox (non-hybrid) today. It was just a few feet away from a geocache. While we were standing at the letterbox the geocache was in plain sight. Very interesting circumstance. With multiple listing sites for hidden containers there seems to be that distinct possibility. If letterboxes were routinely listed on GC.com, then that problem would possibly vanish. I don't know that the hybrid is the solution, but coordinate cross-referencing could be used to promote better spacing between letterboxes and geocaches.

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If letterboxes were routinely listed on GC.com, then that problem would possibly vanish. I don't know that the hybrid is the solution, but coordinate cross-referencing could be used to promote better spacing between letterboxes and geocaches.

 

It wouldn't work because of the nature of letterboxing. Unlike geocaching, letterboxing isn't largely tied to one major website. As letterboxing was born many years before the Internet (and computers for that matter), letterbox clues can be found in numerous places outside the Internet. They are found in other letterboxes, passed between letterboxers, in printed catalogs, by word of mouth, etc...

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I'd be willing to bet that letterboxing could be largely tied to one major website in the future, if the web designers make it as user-friendly and marketable as GC.com.

 

True that. At least one newer site has made inroads just by doing a better job than the others.

Atlas Quest. It's come a long way since 2004. Lots of web features. Easy to use.

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We have a guy in our area that specializes in Letterbox Hybrids. This cacher is absolutely brilliant. He usually gives the coordinates for a designated parking area then gives a list of clues to follow to your destination. There is also really cool hand drawn maps that can be utilized if you are stumped. The maps are kind of primative and somewhat cartoonish, but that is what I like about them. This particular cacher goes thru great efforts to make your caching experience an adventure. :blink: Even the homemade letterboxing stamps are very crafty and I keep a logbook and an ink pad, just for that purpose. Can't wait to find some more! :rolleyes:

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We have a guy in our area that specializes in Letterbox Hybrids. This cacher is absolutely brilliant. He usually gives the coordinates for a designated parking area then gives a list of clues to follow to your destination.

A friend of mine tried to get a cache listed that used the same setup (coordinates to a starting point and clues from there), but it got turned down because it was deemed to not be a geocache because the finder didn't need a GPSr to find the container. I wonder if he'd included coordinates to the cache container AND the clues if it would have been accepted because a finder could either use the coordinates to the container OR use the clues.

 

Is this the crux of the issue with letterbox-hybrids?

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We have a guy in our area that specializes in Letterbox Hybrids. This cacher is absolutely brilliant. He usually gives the coordinates for a designated parking area then gives a list of clues to follow to your destination.

A friend of mine tried to get a cache listed that used the same setup (coordinates to a starting point and clues from there), but it got turned down because it was deemed to not be a geocache because the finder didn't need a GPSr to find the container. I wonder if he'd included coordinates to the cache container AND the clues if it would have been accepted because a finder could either use the coordinates to the container OR use the clues.

 

Is this the crux of the issue with letterbox-hybrids?

One way to get around this, is to put the starting coords for the Hybrid 1.5 miles into the woods, and start the Letterbox clues from there...

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Letterbox hybrids will not get approved in my area unless you give a set of starting coordinates, then a description of how to proceed form there. That is the way it is described in the geocaching guidelines. They are fun if done well. Lets stop complaining about what geocaching is allowing. You have the ability to ignore cache listings if you don't like them. We already lost locationless caches, APE caches are almost extinct, virtuals and webcams no longer get approved. Lets be thankful for the variety we have and go out and cache.

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We have a guy in our area that specializes in Letterbox Hybrids. This cacher is absolutely brilliant. He usually gives the coordinates for a designated parking area then gives a list of clues to follow to your destination.

A friend of mine tried to get a cache listed that used the same setup (coordinates to a starting point and clues from there), but it got turned down because it was deemed to not be a geocache because the finder didn't need a GPSr to find the container. I wonder if he'd included coordinates to the cache container AND the clues if it would have been accepted because a finder could either use the coordinates to the container OR use the clues.

 

Is this the crux of the issue with letterbox-hybrids?

One way to get around this, is to put the starting coords for the Hybrid 1.5 miles into the woods, and start the Letterbox clues from there...

Actually the starting coordinates were to a spot out in the woods, not to the parking lot.

 

My question is: How are letterbox hybrid cache listings supposed to be constructed to that they are acceptable for listing on the geocaching.com site? Am I correct that they have to be able to be found BOTH via clues AND coordinates to the container?

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My question is: How are letterbox hybrid cache listings supposed to be constructed to that they are acceptable for listing on the geocaching.com site? Am I correct that they have to be able to be found BOTH via clues AND coordinates to the container?
Geocaching.com guidelines for letterboxing are pretty simple:
They should contain a signature stamp that stays with the box, and they must conform to the guidelines for geocaches and therefore must contain a logbook and involve GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. A letterbox hybrid cannot be designed to be found using only clues.
Basically, they can't be designed to be found without the use of a GPS to be listed here, and they need to have a stamp in them. If you choose to list the hybrid on one of the letterboxing sites (LbNA or Atlasquest, for example) it will probably be better received by the community if you provide hints to find the box rather than coordinates.

 

I'd like to point out that many letterboxes are what letterboxers call "Word of Mouth" (WOM) boxes, which aren't listed on any listing service, and that coordinates can be considered a proper clue, thus in order to be considered a letterbox you need do no more once you've listed it here. Granted, you will receive many many more visits if you do list on one of the other sites (which do seem to cross reference each other).

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We have a guy in our area that specializes in Letterbox Hybrids. This cacher is absolutely brilliant. He usually gives the coordinates for a designated parking area then gives a list of clues to follow to your destination.

A friend of mine tried to get a cache listed that used the same setup (coordinates to a starting point and clues from there), but it got turned down because it was deemed to not be a geocache because the finder didn't need a GPSr to find the container. I wonder if he'd included coordinates to the cache container AND the clues if it would have been accepted because a finder could either use the coordinates to the container OR use the clues.

 

Is this the crux of the issue with letterbox-hybrids?

One way to get around this, is to put the starting coords for the Hybrid 1.5 miles into the woods, and start the Letterbox clues from there...

Actually the starting coordinates were to a spot out in the woods, not to the parking lot.

 

My question is: How are letterbox hybrid cache listings supposed to be constructed to that they are acceptable for listing on the geocaching.com site? Am I correct that they have to be able to be found BOTH via clues AND coordinates to the container?

 

In terms of guidelines, a Letterbox hybrid should be no different from a Mystery box. Here's what the guidelines say for Mystery boxes:

For many caches of this type, the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby
parking location
. Unless a good reason otherwise can be provided, the posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles (2-3 kilometres) away from the true cache location.

Why would a reviewer place more restrictions on a letterbox hybrid then they would on a mystery box? (I am so grateful for my local reviewer who does not treat hybrids differently from mystery caches.)

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My question is: How are letterbox hybrid cache listings supposed to be constructed to that they are acceptable for listing on the geocaching.com site? Am I correct that they have to be able to be found BOTH via clues AND coordinates to the container?

 

You would not be correct. A letterbox hybrid can be directly referenced by coordinates (as in a traditional cache) or can involve an offset. The key difference between a hybrid and other caches is that it contains a stamp.

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