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YOU CAN BE TICKETED


mikeacrossamerica.com
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I', about to be --ticketed--- so I need your help removing this cache. Heres the story.

 

I recently (randomly) decided to see if my account is still active- some other cachers have taken over my other caches because about 3 years ago I moved to NC and I now live in Washington DC - 395 miles from the cache -as the crow flies!! There is a note on this cache that says I can be ticketed. Since there is no way I can get to NY, let alone a cache placed a few miles into the adirondacks, Perhaps some locals will remove it for me? There has to be some willing parties- to protect geocaching from suffering this black eye.

 

:D

 

I simply have no way to get this job done or I would do it today, and it is not completely fair that I take total responsibility for this- especially legal responsibility. I could never have placed a 'geocache' out there without geocaching.com. Furthermore, I will never place a cache again knowing this is a possible outcome of a free and fun game played by a handful of strangers -and I hope others know about this situation so this cannot happen to them as well.

 

:rolleyes:

 

It's just random timing that I checked this account today- I did so because I ran into some geocachers in Baltimore the other night while I was working.

 

:D

 

And as for the ADK park, I respectfully disagree as a hiker, a naturalist, and as a person who wants the park left completely wild: there is no "undue pressure" on the ecosystem near my cache as evidenced by the 17 logs since the FTF in FEB 2004- if thats undue pressure I'll eat my hat! I placed it way way out in the lonely area of the woods on a state trail for that very reason. Very few people ever get near it. Go to Heart Lake if you want to see "undue pressure" on a natural area.

 

B)

 

I dont mean to sound upset or rude, but, if I'm stuck with a ticket because I cant drive 500 miles, that would make me, well, a little upset. I think thats reasonable. :D

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I simply have no way to get this job done or I would do it today, and it is not completely fair that I take total responsibility for this- especially legal responsibility. I could never have placed a 'geocache' out there without geocaching.com. Furthermore, I will never place a cache again knowing this is a possible outcome of a free and fun game played by a handful of strangers -and I hope others know about this situation so this cannot happen to them as well.

 

I dont mean to sound upset or rude, but, if I'm stuck with a ticket because I cant drive 500 miles, that would make me, well, a little upset. I think thats reasonable. :rolleyes:

Wow, that is a sour attitude that is off on a few levels.

 

"If that gun maker hadnt made that gun, i never would have bought it to commit murder!"

 

Why couldnt you place a cache without GC.com? I see no connection.

 

What cache are you referring to? If you cant maintain it then why do you have it? Cachers like you make this game difficult for others. Maybe you should have read this which you agreed to, before placing your trash uhh, cache.

 

If anyone should be mad it is other cachers for having to deal with irresponsible owners like you. :D

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I'm not sure which cache you're referring to but I did see this note on one of yours (GCH778)...

The rangers could be writing tickets today but The Bureau Chief has asked them to hold off until 1 July, 2007 giving us the opportunity to police ourselves.

 

Sounds like you have plenty of time to schedule some time to go remove your caches or to ask *nicely* that someone bail you out on this.

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This is the now Archived Cache to OP had in mind: Indian Pass Lean-To

 

But he missed this now Archived one: Anti-Malaria Sign

 

It seems this Cache owner hid some really great stuff in the early days. But at some point he simply abandoned them. I don't have any sympathy for him, but ALL his junk needs to be removed or adopted over to someone who actually understands the word RESPONSIBILITY.

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If anyone should be mad it is other cachers for having to deal with irresponsible owners like you. :rolleyes:

 

Yes, someone does have a sour attitude. By your definition, quite a few caches would be considered trash. I only get permission on an as-needed basis. If it's a public park, I consider that implied permission. I don't need to ask someone's permission to do other activities in the park.

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...and it is not completely fair that I take total responsibility for this- especially legal responsibility. I could never have placed a 'geocache' out there without geocaching.com...

 

When the geocache police came to my door and put a gun to my head, and told me to place a cache in the woods, I shut the door and ran away. How can you not be responsible? And how can anyone even "help you" when you don't say what cache you want removed. Jeesh.

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Yes, someone does have a sour attitude. By your definition, quite a few caches would be considered trash. I only get permission on an as-needed basis. If it's a public park, I consider that implied permission. I don't need to ask someone's permission to do other activities in the park.

When it comes to cachers not having permission for a hide, it leaves future cachers in a very awkward situation.

 

You may have permission to be there. But you certainly dont have permission to leave things behind. If you feel you didnt need permission, why not call the park system and ask how they feel? I am sure that they may have something to say about it. After all, it is their park.

Edited by knight2000
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...If you didn't have permission- then i wholeheartedly agree that you should be ticketed. Heck- you littered.

 

Litter involves an act of abandonment and it's defined in part by intent. Caches are not litter. The very fact that the OP checked on their caches and is now working to resolve the issue created by his moving is proof they are not litter.

 

This is not the topic to start a "Do we need permission to place a cache on public land" rant. It's a good time to talk about how to best deal with the caches in question and solve the problem pointed out by the OP.

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This is the now Archived Cache to OP had in mind: Indian Pass Lean-To

 

But he missed this now Archived one: Anti-Malaria Sign

 

It seems this Cache owner hid some really great stuff in the early days. But at some point he simply abandoned them...., but ALL his junk needs to be removed or adopted over to someone ...

 

The OP requested as much.

 

No. The OP reqested one Archived Cache be removed. He neglected to mention the other Archived Cache with exactly the same issue (see my post above).

 

But I was just as concerned about his 7 Caches that are NOT YET Archived.

 

Jay Peak "Beaver Pond Glade" - GCMKK8

Last Find on April 29:

"We exchanged the old container with a square lock-n-lock.

The log sheet was completely soaked too".

 

 

Keegmaster's Cache by the River - GCM24G

Last Find on February 12:

"Frozen solid in place.

The top is now broken and nothing will last through the spring".

 

Needs Maint Log on March 24

"Cache container lid is damaged and cache was full of water and ice.

Cleaned it out as best we could and replaced in crotch of tree

somewhat sheltered from the elements".

 

 

Alice's Wonderland - GCH510

Two finds on April 1:

"The cache is in need of some serious help and repair".

 

"Cache is in need of a better container".

 

 

St. Michel, it's true French name... - GCDA5

A recent find Log on September 4, 2006:

"There is something very sticky inside the container,

almost as if something leaked inside it.

Some of the contents are a bit messy".

 

 

Kendo's Magic - GCDAE8

A lot of Log Book Issues going back more than a year:

"No log so we left a little baggie with a miniature

deck of cards with our name and the date on it!"

 

"Cache needs a logbook; we signed on a loose piece of paper".

 

"needs alittle TLC. No Log we signed on the back of someone elses page".

 

"No more logbook in there. We signed at the bottom of a sheet"

 

"Cache needs some TLC. TNLN Signed a piece of paper in the cache".

 

"The cache could use some hoeing out. We could not find a logbook,

so we signed a sheet of paper like a few more cachers".

 

"This one needs a log book,"

 

 

In fairness to the OP: Two success stories.

 

Virtual Asgaard - GCD33B

Virtual Cache

No maintenance issues reported.

 

Kids Campus at Whiteface - GCDEFA

No maintenance issues reported.

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Something about all of this isn't sounding right... How are they going to ticket you? Does your cache have your name and address in it?

 

Of course you should make every attempt to comply, but you may want to independently verify what you've been told too.

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...I simply have no way to get this job done or I would do it today, and it is not completely fair that I take total responsibility for this- especially legal responsibility...

 

To be fair, you do have a way to get this done. Perhaps not immediatly but sometime this summer. If you are lucky someone will give you a hand. If not, plan a trip since you now know something needs done.

 

As for responsiblity. You as the cache owner have 100% full and legal responsiblity. That's absolutly how it has to be for geocaching to remain viable.

 

Take a look at Cardinal Red's second post. You have a few caches that can be spruced up or adopted out or pulled as the case may be.

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Wow! A fun, new sport! Let's kick the guy who's down and out! That'll teach him to come here asking for help! :D I wonder how many caches in your area dating from 2003 still have active owners? Regulations in the high Adirondacks seem to have changed. And the man is asking for help. So, instead, let's chastise him. What a fun, new sport.

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This is the now Archived Cache to OP had in mind: Indian Pass Lean-To

 

But he missed this now Archived one: Anti-Malaria Sign

 

It seems this Cache owner hid some really great stuff in the early days. But at some point he simply abandoned them. I don't have any sympathy for him, but ALL his junk needs to be removed or adopted over to someone who actually understands the word RESPONSIBILITY.

Very well out! Exactly my observations as well!

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Yes, someone does have a sour attitude. By your definition, quite a few caches would be considered trash. I only get permission on an as-needed basis. If it's a public park, I consider that implied permission. I don't need to ask someone's permission to do other activities in the park.

When it comes to cachers not having permission for a hide, it leaves future cachers in a very awkward situation.

 

You may have permission to be there. But you certainly dont have permission to leave things behind. If you feel you didnt need permission, why not call the park system and ask how they feel? I am sure that they may have something to say about it. After all, it is their park.

 

FYI, Adirondack Park and other DEC lands do not require permission for caches. There was a ban and they lifted it, with the only stipulation that we stay off the mountain peaks and separate the caches by at least 1/2 mile. When you get blanket permission, you don't need to have to go back and get it for every individual hide.

 

Now the irresponsible part comes when someone moves 500 miles away and leaves the caches in place.

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I hate to say this, but, if all this energy was spent solving the problem, as you are banging mikeacrossamerica, the cache or caches in question would be removed. The administrators note suggests that the NYSDEC is worried about the frequency of use and increased traffic into sensitive areas. It is not even clear that these park officials even know where these caches are place. And if they did, why don’t they simply remove them? We clearly don’t have all the information.

 

I hope a local cacher will help mikeacrossamerica remove his caches and protect the image of our hobby.

 

So… who wants to kick the guy again for good measure, while letting his caches remain, so we can create a bigger issue with the DEC? :o Anyone???

Edited by JATurtle
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I hate to say this, but, if all this energy was spent solving the problem, as you are banging mikeacrossamerica, the cache or caches in question would be removed.

 

It takes about 10 seconds and barely any calories are burned to type a forum post. The combined bashing effort of this thread only amounts to about a minute and perhaps 5 calories in total were burned.

 

It could take many hours to remove all of the caches in question and thousands of calories would be burned in the process. So by my calculations we'd have to spend the next 2.3 months bashing Mikeacrossamerica here to equal the effort required to remove the caches in question.

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I can't believe I'm the first one to make this connection, but wouldn't the OP's concern have to do with This ignored thread in the Northeast forum regarding the NYS DEC all of a sudden, out of nowhere, with no warning, deciding caches in the "high peaks region" of the Adirondacks need to be removed? I think Mikeacrossamerica could be given a little slack here. :blink: The caches were placed (at least the Adirondack ones) at a time when "vacation caches" were not as frowned upon as they are now.

Edited by TheWhiteUrkel
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If the OP has moved away then they should have had someone else watching the caches or had them removed before they moved. I hope someone can help but i dont feel too bad about this situation as the OP wasnt as responsible as they should have been.

 

Oh, I get it now. Never mind what I said, except the part about the DEC suddenly, out of nowhere deciding caches need to be removed from the High Peaks region. That's wacked. :) I had visited the Indian Pass Lean-to on several occasions before geocaching existed. I guess if I ever get my lazy arse back to it, there still won't be a cache to find. :blink:

Edited by TheWhiteUrkel
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I hate to say this, but, if all this energy was spent solving the problem, as you are banging mikeacrossamerica, the cache or caches in question would be removed. The administrators note suggests that the NYSDEC is worried about the frequency of use and increased traffic into sensitive areas. It is not even clear that these park officials even know where these caches are place. And if they did, why don’t they simply remove them? We clearly don’t have all the information.

 

I hope a local cacher will help mikeacrossamerica remove his caches and protect the image of our hobby.

 

So… who wants to kick the guy again for good measure, while letting his caches remain, so we can create a bigger issue with the DEC? :blink: Anyone???

Well as I'm the closest to his caches,sure I'll help.Oh wait...I can't.Small 5800 mile problem.

 

It's obvious no one is willing to go get these for Mike,so better get to driving then bud.Take the Northway up till ya get to Glens Falls.Fastest way from CT.Or USRT.7 to VT RT30 to VT/NY RT149.After that follow the GPS.

 

I looked at his hides and I still don't see which ones he's talking about.Like 90% of them are archived,and he doesn't own any of them...at least under the OP name.

Edited by vtmtnman
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Wow! A fun, new sport! Let's kick the guy who's down and out! That'll teach him to come here asking for help! :blink: I wonder how many caches in your area dating from 2003 still have active owners? Regulations in the high Adirondacks seem to have changed. And the man is asking for help. So, instead, let's chastise him. What a fun, new sport.

 

 

Well, the tone of the OP did invite this type of response. He was clearly trying to place the blame on geocaching.com rather than taking responsibility for his own actions.

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Wow! A fun, new sport! Let's kick the guy who's down and out! That'll teach him to come here asking for help! :) I wonder how many caches in your area dating from 2003 still have active owners? Regulations in the high Adirondacks seem to have changed. And the man is asking for help. So, instead, let's chastise him. What a fun, new sport.

 

 

Well, the tone of the OP did invite this type of response. He was clearly trying to place the blame on geocaching.com rather than taking responsibility for his own actions.

 

Lessee. How many cache owners do I know of (having found one or more of their caches) who have disappeared from geocaching, but still have caches out? Fifteen or twenty? Or cachers who have moved, and left caches behind. I can think of a few of them. Or, perhaps far worse, cachers who are still active, but never maintain one cache? I can even think of a few cachers who have died, but were not considerate enough to remove their caches.

At least this cache owner is asking for help.

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It's obvious no one is willing to go get these for Mike,so better get to driving then bud.Take the Northway up till ya get to Glens Falls.Fastest way from CT.Or USRT.7 to VT RT30 to VT/NY RT149.After that follow the GPS.

He he.

camarodrivingbigdi3.gif

In all fairness Mike, you wouldnt have to go completely across America. :)

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Wow! A fun, new sport! Let's kick the guy who's down and out! That'll teach him to come here asking for help! :) I wonder how many caches in your area dating from 2003 still have active owners? Regulations in the high Adirondacks seem to have changed. And the man is asking for help. So, instead, let's chastise him. What a fun, new sport.

 

 

Well, the tone of the OP did invite this type of response. He was clearly trying to place the blame on geocaching.com rather than taking responsibility for his own actions.

 

Lessee. How many cache owners do I know of (having found one or more of their caches) who have disappeared from geocaching, but still have caches out? Fifteen or twenty? Or cachers who have moved, and left caches behind. I can think of a few of them. Or, perhaps far worse, cachers who are still active, but never maintain one cache? I can even think of a few cachers who have died, but were not considerate enough to remove their caches.

At least this cache owner is asking for help.

Game point by Harry Dolphin.

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I hate to say this, but, if all this energy was spent solving the problem, as you are banging mikeacrossamerica, the cache or caches in question would be removed. The administrators note suggests that the NYSDEC is worried about the frequency of use and increased traffic into sensitive areas. It is not even clear that these park officials even know where these caches are place. And if they did, why don’t they simply remove them? We clearly don’t have all the information.

 

I hope a local cacher will help mikeacrossamerica remove his caches and protect the image of our hobby.

 

So… who wants to kick the guy again for good measure, while letting his caches remain, so we can create a bigger issue with the DEC? :) Anyone???

Well as I'm the closest to his caches,sure I'll help.Oh wait...I can't.Small 5800 mile problem.

 

It's obvious no one is willing to go get these for Mike,so better get to driving then bud.Take the Northway up till ya get to Glens Falls.Fastest way from CT.Or USRT.7 to VT RT30 to VT/NY RT149.After that follow the GPS.

 

I looked at his hides and I still don't see which ones he's talking about.Like 90% of them are archived,and he doesn't own any of them...at least under the OP name.

 

Well, there is a well known High Peaks region geocacher, but one of the last times he was spotted in these forums, he had to remove a "vacation cache" placed by someone from Ottawa: Lake Placid Maintainer needed :( This is (if I remember correctly) an easy, about 4 mile round trip walk on a flat trail from the Adirondack Loj, which is a very busy place this time of year. Surely someone will see this thread, and remove the cache. As Harry Dolphin said, no sense in angering the DEC further by not removing the caches in accordance with their ridiculous new policy.

Edited by TheWhiteUrkel
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It seems this Cache owner hid some really great stuff in the early days. But at some point he simply abandoned them. I don't have any sympathy for him, but ALL his junk needs to be removed or adopted over to someone who actually understands the word RESPONSIBILITY.

 

let's not assume great stuff. i have been to many of those caches and was, uh, unimpressed. gladware, aol disk tins, metal cookie boxes, pill bottle left exposed to elements, you get the idea. sure, i liked a couple of the locations, but i wasn't wild about some others. and the caches had a tendency to leak or to go missing.

 

and sometimes when you tick people off they are not of a mind to dash off to grossly inconvenient locations in order to help.

 

and in answer to whomever above said that the caches in question aren't under the op's name, there were some name changes. at least four that i can think of.

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http://www.nnygeo.gps-fun.com/

 

I sent a note through their contact asking if they could possibly look at this thread, in reading their forums they seem to avoid coming to this site and act more like a distinct group or club, not unlike the LIGO folk. But perhaps they can be prevailed upon to assist the sport. I would not go so far as to ask them to remove the cache, as that is the responsibility of the owner, but judging from what has been shown thus far he most likely would never get around to doing that. Perhaps they will deign it ripe for removal for the benefit of the hobby and take it upon themselves to remove it.

 

If it is still in place come August, I will personally attempt to retrieve it.

 

The abandonment of caches and the lack of a contactable responsible owner, will become a problems as more of these things pop up.

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and in answer to whomever above said that the caches in question aren't under the op's name, there were some name changes. at least four that i can think of.

That would be me.Very confusing list to look at.I guess I didn't dig deep enough in the list.I don't know. :)

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Hi,

 

I haven't been here is a while, but I was contacted, and made aware of the 2 caches (there are probably more that are similarly effected by the new ban on caches in those areas)...

 

NNYGeo will take care of retrieving the 2 caches before the July 1 deadline.

 

Not for nothing, but these should have been archived or adopted when the owner moved away...

 

How have things been in these forums? :blink:

 

Jamie - NFA

 

sorry for the multi-posting...the forum software was slower than I had remembered, feel free to delete the extras

Edited by NFA
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Hi,

 

I haven't been here is a while, but I was contacted, and made aware of the 2 caches (there are probably more that are similarly effected by the new ban on caches in those areas)...

 

NNYGeo will take care of retrieving the 2 caches before the July 1 deadline.

 

Not for nothing, but these should have been archived or adopted when the owner moved away...

 

How have things been in these forums? :P

 

Jamie - NFA

 

sorry for the multi-posting...the forum software was slower than I had remembered, feel free to delete the extras

Thank you for attending to this problem. It took me longer than 10 seconds to write this… but then I am getting old. I used to live in VT, but I moved to CT for the sunshine. :P
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The OP's caches are not eligibile for involuntary adoption.

I would encourage voluntary adoption using the do it yourself page at http://www.geocaching.com/adopt .

If there are no issues with a cache -- it's dry, has a log, and isn't in a prohibited area -- then leave well enough alone.

If there's an issue with a cache, post a needs maintenance or needs archived log, as appropriate.

 

I would like to thank NFA for his assistance; it is good to see you in the Forums.

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Is it even legal to fine someone who placed a cache before this rule was in place. I'm not argueing their point, the caches should be picked up, but to fine someone who didn't break any rules when they placed it doesn't sound right.

 

Log Date: 5/31/2007

I have been contacted by the Bureau Chief Forest Preserve Management NYSDEC in regards to geocaching in the high peaks areas of the Adirondack State Park. He expressed his concern of the sensitive ecosystem in the area and the undue pressure searching for geocaches and summit registers are placing on it. The Bureau Chief has asked us to remove all geocaches in this region. This includes the Western High Peaks Area (zone :blink: and the Eastern High Peaks Area (zone C) as indicated on this map. http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/33889.html

 

Regrettably I am archiving all geocaches within this area and asking they be removed as soon as possible. The rangers could be writing tickets today but The Bureau Chief has asked them to hold off until 1 July, 2007 giving us the opportunity to police ourselves.

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Is it even legal to fine someone who placed a cache before this rule was in place. I'm not argueing their point, the caches should be picked up, but to fine someone who didn't break any rules when they placed it doesn't sound right.

The fine wouldn't be from Groundspeak. It would be from the land managers, most likely for littering although i am not sure.

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Is it even legal to fine someone who placed a cache before this rule was in place. I'm not argueing their point, the caches should be picked up, but to fine someone who didn't break any rules when they placed it doesn't sound right.

The fine wouldn't be from Groundspeak. It would be from the land managers, most likely for littering although i am not sure.

I understand that, I just don't know how they can make a rule then penalize the individual for breaking it before it was a rule. I can see asking them to pick them up but fining them might be a bit overboard.

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I understand that, I just don't know how they can make a rule then penalize the individual for breaking it before it was a rule. I can see asking them to pick them up but fining them might be a bit overboard.

Im pretty sure its always been illegal to litter in parks.

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Im pretty sure its always been illegal to litter in parks.

 

Geocaching isn't littering...and the Adirondack Park is a 6 million acre park comprised of public and private land, where geocaching has been allowed for years...until without any notice the policy changed overnight in the high peaks area...

 

just sayin'

 

nfa

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Geocaching isn't littering...and the Adirondack Park is a 6 million acre park comprised of public and private land, where geocaching has been allowed for years...until without any notice the policy changed overnight in the high peaks area...

 

just sayin'

 

nfa

Yeah thats true. If permission was given, there should be some sort of notice. Then again, if you don't maintain your caches, then it wouldn't matter anyway because you live far away.

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I understand that, I just don't know how they can make a rule then penalize the individual for breaking it before it was a rule. I can see asking them to pick them up but fining them might be a bit overboard.

Im pretty sure its always been illegal to litter in parks.

 

Retroactive laws, of course, are unconstitutional. New interpretations of old laws are not. Selective enforcement of laws is a violation of common sense, but permissable. In a nutshell, you can't fight city hall.

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§620.2 General Procedure

(a) Whenever the commissioner finds, after an investigation, that any person is causing, engaging in or maintaining a condition or activity which, in the judgment of the commissioner:

 

(1) presents an imminent danger to the health of welfare of the people of the State, or results in or is likely to result in irreversible or irreparable damage to natural resources; and

 

(2) relates to the prevention and abatement powers of the commissioner in that the condition of activity pertains to or affects any of the objectives or goals of the Environmental Conservation Law, or relates to any of the permit, licensing, or regulatory programs of the Department; so that it appears to be prejudicial to the interest of the people of the State to delay action until an opportunity for hearing can be provided, the commissioner may, without prior hearing or notice, order such person to discontinue, abate or alleviate such condition or activity.

 

It is called a summary abatement order, the section is shown above, it has nothing to do with littering, it has to do with destruction of plant life in the Alpine Zone, the high peaks have protected plants and traversing off trail is frowned upon. It also is demonstrative of the power of government. So just watch it. :blink:

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It is called a summary abatement order, the section is shown above, it has nothing to do with littering, it has to do with destruction of plant life in the Alpine Zone, the high peaks have protected plants and traversing off trail is frowned upon. It also is demonstrative of the power of government. So just watch it

 

It's demonstrative of the government's idiotic response to non issues. I just looked at the affected caches as listed in NY Admin's bookmark list. 9 caches. Of them, only two could remotely be considered an "alpine zone".

One of the two had 2 finds in a bit over a year of it's life.

 

1 was near a trail by a lean-to. 3 were hidden along roads. One was hidden at a picnic area and two were hidden near hiking trails at around the 600 ft elevation.

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Please do not think that I in anyway agreed with the action, I was merely answering a query from someone who wondered How could they --well they have the power as I pointed out-- and I can't say anymore than that or I will run the risk of getting political--Besides I 'd much rather have them knocking at your door than at mine. :lol::D

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