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The Alethiometrists

No Numbers Option for Premium Membership

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A group of runners, Group A, go to the track at the local high school. They gather and run everyday from 5:30 am to 6:30am. They simply enjoy running for that one hour a day. Then some others, Group B, start running at 5:30 am but they run until 6:30 pm. But they compete to see who has run the most laps. Group A is willing to share the track, but don't have the time or want to be in Group B's competition. Group B then makes a chart and includes Group A's laps on their chart. It makes Group A look inferior and nobody likes to look inferior. Group A knows they could kick Group B's rear ends if they had the time. :blink: So shouldn't Group A have the option of not being on this chart?

If group B's significant others are sitting in the stands and compiling said charts. And the Charts are then hung up for all to see at Group Bs clubhouse. How does that affect Group As performance on the track?

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OK try this analogy.

 

A group of runners, Group A, go to the track at the local high school. They gather and run everyday from 5:30 am to 6:30am. They simply enjoy running for that one hour a day. Then some others, Group B, start running at 5:30 am but they run until 6:30 pm. But they compete to see who has run the most laps. Group A is willing to share the track, but don't have the time or want to be in Group B's competition. Group B then makes a chart and includes Group A's laps on their chart. It makes Group A look inferior and nobody likes to look inferior. Group A knows they could kick Group B's rear ends if they had the time. :blink: So shouldn't Group A have the option of not being on this chart?

 

This would be better, IF geocachers with lower find numbers were actually viewed as inferior. I don't think I'm inferior to anyone with more finds, nor do I think I'm superior to anyone with less finds. And, I really don't give a rat's fuzzy butt if I'm viewed as inferior by someone else. I don't have any self-esteem issues.

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OK try this analogy.

 

A group of runners, Group A, go to the track at the local high school. They gather and run everyday from 5:30 am to 6:30am. They simply enjoy running for that one hour a day. Then some others, Group B, start running at 5:30 am but they run until 6:30 pm. But they compete to see who has run the most laps. Group A is willing to share the track, but don't have the time or want to be in Group B's competition. Group B then makes a chart and includes Group A's laps on their chart. It makes Group A look inferior and nobody likes to look inferior. Group A knows they could kick Group B's rear ends if they had the time. :blink: So shouldn't Group A have the option of not being on this chart?

 

This would be better, IF geocachers with lower find numbers were actually viewed as inferior. I don't think I'm inferior to anyone with more finds, nor do I think I'm superior to anyone with less finds. And, I really don't give a rat's fuzzy butt if I'm viewed as inferior by someone else. I don't have any self-esteem issues.

I don't think it's self-esteem issues. It's the competitive spirit in those that can't compete. :( Anyhow, it's so important to Group B to have Group A's numbers then there's not much Group B can do. Group B needs these numbers for some reason.... :lol: Edited by TrailGators

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Lord knows I am no nunbers hound with less than 600 finds in 5.5 years. I don't want the numbers for any sort of competition. But they do indicate some level of proficiency when i see a DNF or certain other comments in logs. Lets me know how "seriously" I should take it. It is at least an indicator.

 

As I stated before, the only reason I see to "opt" out is to make some kind of political commentary about how you feel.

Nothing changes for those who like the numbers. If someone is opting out now, you dont see the true numbers anyway, so how would this change? If Team 360 logs a DNF do you know how many finds he's had? How about this guy? I've personally done maybe 50 caches with him, and he's done many more. Speaking of, do you know how many caches I've found?

People who want to opt out of the numbers game for whatever reason already are doing it, so offering the option to hide your find count isnt going to hurt anyone else. The only thing different for anyone else would be a plus. People could opt out of the numbers and still post online logs for the cache owners and others to read. How is an online log by a person with no finds showing worse then no online log at all???? The opt out people would also be slightly reducing load on both the web and pq servers. How is speeding up the site a bad thing?

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...A group of runners, Group A, go to the track at the local high school. They gather and run everyday from 5:30 am to 6:30am. They simply enjoy running for that one hour a day. Then some others, Group B, start running at 5:30 am but they run until 6:30 pm. But they compete to see who has run the most laps. Group A is willing to share the track, but don't have the time or want to be in Group B's competition. Group B then makes a chart and includes Group A's laps on their chart. It makes Group A look inferior and nobody likes to look inferior. Group A knows they could kick Group B's rear ends if they had the time. :blink: So shouldn't Group A have the option of not being on this chart?

 

That sounds a lot like how track meets are conducted. They are competing even if they don't run at the same time. If Group A didn't want to be counted I recon they would be letterboxers.

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For the people that don't want to see the numbers, and want to opt out of the "numbers game", let them opt out so that nobody's numbers show up on any cache pages that these people look at. That way they're not bothered by numbers.

 

However, leave all of the numbers on the pages that I view, since I didn't opt out.

 

I rather like that idea.

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.......Shouldn't Group A have the option of not competing without hindering the competition of Group B?

Assuming that Group B is being somewhat non-intrusive about how they obtain the timing - what difference does it make to anybody in Group A?

 

Ignore the numbers if you want. Look at them if you want. Hiding them seems to serve no purpose except some kind of "commentary" on how you feel.

Well we certainly can't have THAT now, can we?

 

I'd love to have the option of checking a box in my profile to hide my numbers from others. Why would this make a difference to the other group?

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...I'd love to have the option of checking a box in my profile to hide my numbers from others. Why would this make a difference to the other group?

 

Several reasons.

 

If a random numberless cacher posts a comment on my cache that requires a judgment based on experience. Numbers help me gage my responce. Do I check on it? Do I just let it go because they expected to easily find what I know to be a hard cache.

 

Next of course compettion. You may not be competing or even care. But if I'm trying to be king of my town...It does me not good to be amogn 3000 cachers and I'm the only 1 with a number. "yeah I'm #1..I think..." It takes the fun out of numbers for those who do like them.

 

I really have a hard time with vice versa. How is having numbers harming those would really could care less?

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For the people that don't want to see the numbers, and want to opt out of the "numbers game", let them opt out so that nobody's numbers show up on any cache pages that these people look at. That way they're not bothered by numbers.

 

However, leave all of the numbers on the pages that I view, since I didn't opt out.

 

I rather like that idea.

Agreed - that is how an "opt" out should be applied in this case.

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.......Shouldn't Group A have the option of not competing without hindering the competition of Group B?

Assuming that Group B is being somewhat non-intrusive about how they obtain the timing - what difference does it make to anybody in Group A?

 

Ignore the numbers if you want. Look at them if you want. Hiding them seems to serve no purpose except some kind of "commentary" on how you feel.

Well we certainly can't have THAT now, can we?

 

I'd love to have the option of checking a box in my profile to hide my numbers from others. Why would this make a difference to the other group?

 

While we're on the topic, some of the colors on the website hurt my precious eyes. Let's have several different color and font options so everyone can feel good about themselves. And! How about the option to customize the icons, I never cared much for the treasure chests, I prefer a sack to a chest. (I'm hoping you can read the sarcasm)...

 

Where does this end?

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It's interesting to note that in 60 posts there has not be a single reasonable reason against the OP's idea.

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It's interesting to note that in 60 posts there has not be a single reasonable reason against the OP's idea.

Sure there is. I would miss seeing the find counts on online logs - while a few do not log online consistently - the vast majority of users do (based on my own sample polling of cachers I know). I use that count to lend credibility to what is said in the online log entry.

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...I'd love to have the option of checking a box in my profile to hide my numbers from others. Why would this make a difference to the other group?

 

Several reasons.

 

If a random numberless cacher posts a comment on my cache that requires a judgment based on experience. Numbers help me gage my responce. Do I check on it? Do I just let it go because they expected to easily find what I know to be a hard cache.

 

Next of course compettion. You may not be competing or even care. But if I'm trying to be king of my town...It does me not good to be amogn 3000 cachers and I'm the only 1 with a number. "yeah I'm #1..I think..." It takes the fun out of numbers for those who do like them.

 

I really have a hard time with vice versa. How is having numbers harming those would really could care less?

All hail RK, Cache King of ...wherever (I didn't look). :blink:

 

RK, I'm starting to get the idea that for some of the people the issue is that they do care--but they aren't at the top end--they do feel competitive, and they would like to be at the top, but people with more time, people who are less choosy about which geocaches they go after, or people in better health etc are racking up numbers too fast to keep up.

 

We've been geocaching for 3 years now. We have several hundred finds under our belts. We know people who have been around since the beginning who have found fewer caches than we have. We also know cachers who've been around less than a year with three or four times as many caches as we do.

 

I don't worry about it, because there is no way to compare one set of numbers with another in this case. This is not a science experiment with controls and so forth.

 

Some of us are old, some young; some are in good health, some are in poor phsyical condition. Somce of us are retired; some have to work long hours; some of us have weekends off; some of us work two jobs. Some of us cache alone; some have to wait for a family to go along. Some us will grab any cache with a number and others of us only like certain types. How could you ever compare all those variables in a way that creates competition among ALL cachers?

 

So what if someone else compares themselves to you? When we had been caching about a year, someone told us that he used our numbers as a gauge for his caching, just because we started about the same time. He was half our age, in much better shape, and cached alone most of the time. I though we were an odd choice for a competitor --telling yourself "Well, at least I'm ahead of Team Neos" really isn't saying much, after all (We recently went on a 6 day vacation and only snagged 50 caches the whole time).

 

I would be OK with someone else not being able to see any numbers from their account, as Mushtang suggested. I want to be able to see all the numbers. I want them for people like RK and our own sweet young competitor, who need those numbers to see how they are doing. But I'm OK with others having blinders on, if they perfer.

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It's interesting to note that in 60 posts there has not be a single reasonable reason against the OP's idea.

Sure there is. I would miss seeing the find counts on online logs - while a few do not log online consistently - the vast majority of users do (based on my own sample polling of cachers I know). I use that count to lend credibility to what is said in the online log entry.

The online find count means nothing. Who has the most credibility? Someone who's only logged 242 finds in 7 years of caching but most of them are long hikes with high terrain ratings (coughJeremycough)? Someone who's been caching a few weeks but has 250 finds because he did "Walmart urban cache series 1-150" one weekend and "attended" an event the next weekend 100 times for all the temp caches and pocket caches there? What about the guy with 1000+ finds but who doesn't log online at all?

I know my experienced local cachers. I don't need to see a number next to their name to know they are experienced. Besides, if the vast majority log online (and they probably do, though some people even in this thread have stated elsewhere that when comparing logbooks to online logs something like 40% of the people in the logbook never logged online) chances are they are not the people who would opt out of stats. Again, the OPs suggestion wasn't to do away with find counts, or even hide them by default. He merely suggested allowing the option for people who WANT to to do so.

Again, how does that negatively effect you? Almost half the cachers in some areas aren't logging online now.

If they do log a DNF on you cache when there is a problem, their find count isnt accurate now. It may even show them with zero finds. How is a DNF by someone with zero finds worse then a DNF log with no number shown? If that's the BEST reason you have to not allow find counts to be hidden..........................

It boils down to the same reason people want to see who's got a cache on their watchlist: Because I want to.

The site allows you to hide your bookmarks from public view.

It allows you to hide your email address from public view.

It hides your watchlist from public view.

What's wrong with offering the OPTION to hide you find count too?

Edited by Mopar

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It's interesting to note that in 60 posts there has not be a single reasonable reason against the OP's idea.

Sure there is. I would miss seeing the find counts on online logs - while a few do not log online consistently - the vast majority of users do (based on my own sample polling of cachers I know). I use that count to lend credibility to what is said in the online log entry.

The online find count means nothing. Who has the most credibility? Someone who's only logged 242 finds in 7 years of caching but most of them are long hikes with high terrain ratings (coughJeremycough)? Someone who's been caching a few weeks but has 250 finds because he did "Walmart urban cache series 1-150" one weekend and "attended" an event the next weekend 100 times for all the temp caches and pocket caches there? What about the guy with 1000+ finds but who doesn't log online at all?

I know my experienced local cachers. I don't need to see a number next to their name to know they are experienced. Besides, if the vast majority log online (and they probably do, though some people even in this thread have stated elsewhere that when comparing logbooks to online logs something like 40% of the people in the logbook never logged online) chances are they are not the people who would opt out of stats. Again, the OPs suggestion wasn't to do away with find counts, or even hide them by default. He merely suggested allowing the option for people who WANT to to do so.

Again, how does that negatively effect you? Almost half the cachers in some areas aren't logging online now.

If they do log a DNF on you cache when there is a problem, their find count isnt accurate now. It may even show them with zero finds. How is a DNF by someone with zero finds worse then a DNF log with no number shown? If that's the BEST reason you have to not allow find counts to be hidden..........................

It boils down to the same reason people want to see who's got a cache on their watchlist: Because I want to.

The site allows you to hide your bookmarks from public view.

It allows you to hide your email address from public view.

It hides your watchlist from public view.

What's wrong with offering the OPTION to hide you find count too?

I couldn't have said it better myself. :blink:

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....All hail RK, Cache King of ...wherever (I didn't look). :blink:

 

RK, I'm starting to get the idea that for some of the people the issue is that they do care--but they aren't at the top end--they do feel competitive, and they would like to be at the top, but people with more time, people who are less choosy about which geocaches they go after, or people in better health etc are racking up numbers too fast to keep up. ....

 

Some of us are old, some young; some are in good health, some are in poor phsyical condition. Somce of us are retired; some have to work long hours; some of us have weekends off; some of us work two jobs. Some of us cache alone; some have to wait for a family to go along. Some us will grab any cache with a number and others of us only like certain types. How could you ever compare all those variables in a way that creates competition among ALL cachers? ...

 

My king of days are gone.

 

Your comments are fair. There are a lof of things that can and should be factored in exactly like you point out (yeah, your point was the opposite but work with me here...). Real stats and real numbers can be spun a thousand ways. If they were, some people could see how they stack up agsint like minded folks where things are more balanced. Can't be king of your town, try your county. Like mountain climbing? Compete among caches over 6000'. SCUBA your thing? Underwater caches. An so on.

 

Don't care about any of that? See what your grandkids are doing in the caching world bye looking at the logs on their most recen't finds all filtered in on handy locations. Information used for stats lets you do wonderful non numbers things. Who are the newbies? Easy, just look. You can't really do that on this site now. Again possible with the same information needed for "numbers games".

 

Don't like raw numbers games, other games can be invented using teams and information that would be needed for stats. Battleship, Stratego, Risk, Othello...can be adapted to geocaching and mapped in real time. Other team games that haven't even been thought up can be created. Using the same information that numbers and stats would use.

 

There is a lot more potential than most people think about when they just focus on "The Numbers" and them being the root of all cache evil.

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....I know my experienced local cachers. I don't need to see a number next to their name to know they are experienced....

 

But you did need to see that they did a number of things to gain that title in your mind. You have a mental list of things that make an experienced cacher. The larger the number of things on that list you check off the more experienced you think they are. Numbers by another name.

 

Your numbering method has limitations and drawbacks just like any other. The most experience cacher in the world could sit next to you and you would think they were a rank noob if you could not run down your checklist. Once you got to talking, yes you could start checking things off the list. But then so can anyone who likes seeing the number of finds on a log.

 

Your mental numbers, the cache log numbers are all subject to their context. The limitations are part of the system. You just have to recognize them.

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...I'd love to have the option of checking a box in my profile to hide my numbers from others. Why would this make a difference to the other group?

 

Several reasons.

 

If a random numberless cacher posts a comment on my cache that requires a judgment based on experience. Numbers help me gage my responce. Do I check on it? Do I just let it go because they expected to easily find what I know to be a hard cache.

 

Next of course compettion. You may not be competing or even care. But if I'm trying to be king of my town...It does me not good to be amogn 3000 cachers and I'm the only 1 with a number. "yeah I'm #1..I think..." It takes the fun out of numbers for those who do like them.

 

I really have a hard time with vice versa. How is having numbers harming those would really could care less?

This has been the only response with any thought put into it, so I'll reply. To those who think that motives are because I or anyone else is 'ashamed' of our low numbers... If you can't even give a small effort to try and look at things from anyones elses perspective, I am not gonna waste my time trying.

 

So, RK, your first point is one that has some validity. As a cache owner, I can see using those numbers to make a judgment call on experience. If that were tacked onto the email that is generated for the cache owner, fine. It doesn't NEED to be online for everyone to see.

 

The second point I don't agree with. "How is having numbers harming those would really could care less?"? Simple. When people say things like "It's not about the numbers", they SHOULD be saying it's not about teh competition. I want to know my own numbers for tracking purposes, not for count purposes. I do NOT want to be in ANY part of a competition with others. I know you do, and that is OK. But PLEASE don't include me in it. I am not in a race. I am not caching to prove something to anyone but myself. I don't want my lawn measured so some group can get together and pat themselves on the back about the deviation ratio between their lawn height and mine. Leave me alone. You want to compete, fine. Why do you have the right to tell ME that I am going to compete with you, whether I like it or not? So you can have a greater pool of numbers from which to declare yourselves superior?

 

This is what I really don't understand about this issue. I don't want to compete, you do. By using my numbers, you are forcing me to do so. There are assuredly many cachers that don't post online for this reason. I like posting online for a number of reasons. Being used as a gauge for someone elses ego is not of those reasons.

 

So, if the first point, which I concede is a moderately valid point, is addressed by the number attached to an email of the log, why is there a NEED to force anyone to display numbers publicly?

 

I say there isn't a need. It is a 'want'. And not a 'want' by desired by every account holder.

 

EDIT: RK, by writing 'you' I realize I am implying you personally. I use it as a literary convenience, not an attempt to demean you as a person.

Edited by New England n00b

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....I don't want my lawn measured so some group can get together and pat themselves on the back about the deviation ratio between their lawn height and mine. Leave me alone. You want to compete, fine. Why do you have the right to tell ME that I am going to compete with you, whether I like it or not? So you can have a greater pool of numbers from which to declare yourselves superior?...

 

You should read my post above about the non numbers things that numbers let you do. That alone makes stats (which we don't have) worth it.

 

As for competing. What good is my feeling all smug and superior if you really don't care? "Hey I'm number 1! Whoo Hoo!". "Whatever dude, watch the spit, I want to enjoy this beer."

Edited by Renegade Knight

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"Hey I'm number 1! Whoo Hoo!". "Whatever dude, watch the spit, I want to enjoy this beer."
:D I'll join ya for a cold one, but I still don't see why you guys won't let us opt out....Seriously, what would really happen? How many would opt out? A third? Half? Do the numbers drive the game more than many would care to admit?

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I just don't get all the uproar.

 

I personally like the numbers. But I like numbers/stats in general. I like sports. I play fantasy sports. I keep the stats for my golf league. I just like numbers.

 

Most of my local cacher friends like the numbers roo. We compete for fun - most finds in a day, most consecutive days, etc. To me this just adds to the fun.

 

I respect those who don't want to show their numbers. I think they should have that right. Even for non-premium members. Who does it hurt? Nobody that I can think of. I think it helps.

 

Those who want to hide/not track their numbers would be more likely to post "find" logs. This would slightly reduce server activity - PQ's would be more accurate. This would help these cachers enjoy the game more - as they would not need to manually filter out their own finds from the PQ's. Having these cachers log their finds would also provide more feedback to those who hide caches. I have a few hides and do like to read the logs - good/bad/otherwise.

 

I log (almost) all of my DNF's. I do this mostly for my own knowledge. I check my DNF list occassionally and go back and try again. If I do find the cache, I change the DNF to a note. It's my way of keeping track.

 

I see no downside to giving those who do not want to show their numbers that option - even though I would never myself use it.

I see no downside

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"Hey I'm number 1! Whoo Hoo!". "Whatever dude, watch the spit, I want to enjoy this beer."
:D I'll join ya for a cold one, but I still don't see why you guys won't let us opt out....Seriously, what would really happen? How many would opt out? A third? Half? Do the numbers drive the game more than many would care to admit?

 

Done: There's that number thing again, but I'll bet you don't want to opt out of that one. :D

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"Hey I'm number 1! Whoo Hoo!". "Whatever dude, watch the spit, I want to enjoy this beer."
:D I'll join ya for a cold one, but I still don't see why you guys won't let us opt out....Seriously, what would really happen? How many would opt out? A third? Half? Do the numbers drive the game more than many would care to admit?

Done: There's that number thing again, but I'll bet you don't want to opt out of that one. ;)

There's nothing to opt out of. So sure! I'll have a few more of those! :D

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I have been doing this for a long time. Others who started at the same time as I are ahead of me by the order of thousands. Even though my cache find rate can only be described as in the slow poke catagory, they are important to me as a part of caching, and I still take pride in them. I even take pride in the fact that I have around 1600 and my friends have 5000 or so. Pride for me and them. Why would anyone be offended by numbers? Seems strange to me.

 

What does offend me is when I take the time and trouble to place a cache, and people don't log their find. That is my reward for putting it there. :D

Yup, seems strange to me too . . . :D

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I have been doing this for a long time. Others who started at the same time as I are ahead of me by the order of thousands. Even though my cache find rate can only be described as in the slow poke catagory, they are important to me as a part of caching, and I still take pride in them. I even take pride in the fact that I have around 1600 and my friends have 5000 or so. Pride for me and them. Why would anyone be offended by numbers? Seems strange to me.

 

What does offend me is when I take the time and trouble to place a cache, and people don't log their find. That is my reward for putting it there. :D

Yup, seems strange to me too . . . ;)

Who the heck is offended now? All I know is that some person accidentally spit on RK because they were so excited about being number one... :D

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I would also like the ability to remove my Find count from my logs. That number does not contribute to my enjoyment of geocaching and I would like to be able to opt out of that system.

I cannot think of any reason to publicly display that number on every log that I write.

Many geocachers in the area in which I live do not log online at all, they do this to distance themselves from controversy concerning numbers. The numbers problem is real, I can show you forum posts from geocachers who were accosted online or in email by complete strangers complaining about a perceived lack of integrity.

The geocachers who opt out of logging caches online might become Premium members and log online if they were allowed to opt out of the public display of their Find count.

In reading these forums there are very few geocachers who insist that numbers are important so perhaps this type of change might be well received by the community in general.

Thank you.

 

I have my own beef with 'found' logs and numbers - mostly because I _have been_ harassed via email by other cachers who feel they should be able to tell me what I can and cannot do in the caching world... or to point out that they have more finds than me... or to let me know they noticed I did x,y, and z over the weekend... or that I was with [insert random cachers name here].

 

Finally I got fed up and changed all of my finds to notes.

 

I would wholeheartedly support 'hiding' numbers by choice, but even moreso , I would wholeheartedly support not being able to 'track' people's finds via a cachers profile page. You know --> Profile --> Geocaches.

 

Until that happens, I'll keep to not logging my finds online, or only logging them as notes when the mood strikes.

 

Quite honestly, I have no bloody idea what my cache find count is these days, nor do I care.

 

 

michelle

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....

The online find count means nothing. Who has the most credibility? .....

 

You argue that it means nothing and has no value for the use I described above - and yet you want to hide it?? If it really means nothing, then why must it be hidden? To protect who? - from what? If it is indeed valueless.

 

Its a little like baseball stats. I don't care how many left handed pitchers have won 3 straight games at night on artifical turf. Means nothing to me. Yet I know someone somewhere could give me that stat. And it is important to them. Either way, the keeping of the information and the display of it do not affect my enjoyment (or lack thereof) in the least.

 

If the number had never existed on this site, I probably would never argue to start showing it. But taking it away will change things for me. Change the way I look at logs. That will have an impact on me. As all things do.

 

Again - I am competing with no one. I have a small find count for the time I have been around. I am not looking to start any competitions. I just like knowing the "relative" number of finds a cacher has. It helps to allow me to form an opinion of how seriously I should take comments left in the online logs of any type. Just me though.

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I just like knowing the "relative" number of finds a cacher has.

Maybe some folks think it's none of your business.

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It's interesting to note that in 60 posts there has not be a single reasonable reason against the OP's idea.

Sure there is. I would miss seeing the find counts on online logs - while a few do not log online consistently - the vast majority of users do (based on my own sample polling of cachers I know). I use that count to lend credibility to what is said in the online log entry.

 

I don't think you can use the numbers accurately to determine credibility. Just knowing the logger is a much better method. If I get a log by someone I don't know, I can't use his numbers to determine how good a cacher he is. Maybe all of his finds up until mine were easy LPCs.

 

We have people stretching the numbers by not logging as well as multiple logging. So I don't see where a few logs not listing find counts are a big deal. It may be such a small number you may not even notice.

 

Perhaps they could even make that posted number adjustable - Meaning, instead of listing the actual found count, listing an offset or a percentage of the real number. In truth, I would not really want to see that, but a percentage of the numbers listed don't represent the actual value anyway.

 

I'd be all for having the option to show/hide my numbers. Would I use the option? Not sure....

Edited by brdad

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I don't think you can use the numbers accurately to determine credibility. Just knowing the logger is a much better method. If I get a log by someone I don't know, I can't use his numbers to determine how good a cacher he is. Maybe all of his finds up until mine were easy LPCs.

Sorry, this is a straw man argument, if ever there was one. I find it hard to believe that anyone wouldn't hold more credibility to someone with 1,200 finds over someone with 12 (usually, anyway). The numbers ARE important. Don't use them if you don't want to. But don't hide them from anyone who chooses to use them.

Edited by Always & Forever 5

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Group A also notices that Group B is not running around the entire track. Instead they are running circles around light posts and counting those as laps....

:D;):D <-- (This means I'm joking!!!)

 

Joking or not, that is an apt addition to the analogy. The question that I have is how does including Group A's stats with Group B's stats provide anyone with competitive stats.

 

As a comparison to Geocaching, group A could consist of sprinters (LPCs), hurdlers (Mystery Caches), distance runners (Multi-Caches), cross country (long hikes) and ultra marathoners (5 D/T caches).

 

If group B consists of sprinters (LPCs) only how does adding group As time make it a competition. These times aren't comparable.

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I just like knowing the "relative" number of finds a cacher has.

Maybe some folks think it's none of your business.

 

Those same folks often think their opinion should matter. With no basis for people to give them any kind of credibility they are often disappointed. People want their opinion to matter. They should reasonably expect to offer up some reason it should. I will listen to my mechanic over a geocacher on car advice...until I somehow learn that the geocacher is also a mechanic in their day job.

========================

In simpler terms.

For most of the none of my business folks, I find their opinion is none of my concern.

Edited by Renegade Knight

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...or not, that is an apt addition to the analogy. The question that I have is how does including Group A's stats with Group B's stats provide anyone with competitive stats....

 

Back when we had stats the Skydiver system rewarded people for finding caches seldom found.

The Urban crowd would have lower "numbers" than the Rural crowd with that system.

 

True numbers and true stats give you the ability to do things like that.

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...I don't think you can use the numbers accurately to determine credibility. Just knowing the logger is a much better method. If I get a log by someone I don't know, I can't use his numbers to determine how good a cacher he is. Maybe all of his finds up until mine were easy LPCs....

 

Given no other information the raw number in the log is a gage of relative experience. It's not as good as knowing the cacher but in all cases you should be using the best information you have to make a judgment about something.

 

Perfectly accurate? Nope. But 10000% better than the nothing you would have if folks could hide their number and their logs. I'm not going to take the time to read a finders extended log set just to figure out if their "DNF" means something. I will use their number, and my personal knowledge of them or their other logs on caches we have both found (which I do tend to read when I log my finds).

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Sorry, this is a straw man argument, if ever there was one. I find it hard to believe that anyone wouldn't hold more credibility to someone with 1,200 finds over someone with 12 (usually, anyway). The numbers ARE important. Don't use them if you don't want to. But don't hide them from anyone who chooses to use them.

 

Well of course it's going to give some weight to a decision. But only as much as I use the number of posts made by posters here as a determination of how knowledgable they are, or using the amount of money someone has to determine how much they know about making money.

 

I really think there would be a relatively low number of people that would opt to hide their numbers AND that would be someone you didn't have an idea of their credibility by other means. The odds of that one number missing in a log making a huge difference in how you handle a situation is minimal at best.

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...The odds of that one number missing in a log making a huge difference in how you handle a situation is minimal at best.

The numbers were removed once from logs. Turns out it's like your rear view mirror. You don't care about them a bit until they are gone. Then boy howdy do you ever notice it's not there!

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I just like knowing the "relative" number of finds a cacher has.

Maybe some folks think it's none of your business.

 

What do you care? That's always your mantra -- "Play the game your own way"... Yet, you sure care a lot about other people seeing your find count.. Wonder why that is?

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The numbers were removed once from logs. Turns out it's like your rear view mirror. You don't care about them a bit until they are gone. Then boy howdy do you ever notice it's not there!

 

I remember that. But again, we're talking about occasional logs, not every log. Or do you think a larger percentage of cachers would choose to hide theirs? It seems to me a larger percentage of the community likes to promote their numbers than not.

 

If I had to make my own guess (And it is just a guess), I'd say less than one in ten would opt not to show their numbers.

Edited by brdad

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My guess is that there are 10 geocachers that would NOT show their numbers.

Remember that those of us on the forums are in whole, a tiny microcosm of the sport.

The largest group of cachers have never seen the forums, and don't log on-line.

 

I personally use the number count to determine if I should look for a cache after it is logged with a DNF.

If the DNF'er is a very low count, I may hunt for it. If the DNF'er has thousands of finds, I usually skip it.

 

Save me 7 minutes, and leave the stats on. :(

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How about a different mantra: Play the game any way you want. But don't force me to play your game.

 

Some of us are adverse to being included in stats and competitions. In my own personal non-moderator feelings, I feel that the competitive aspect of Geocaching has increased the proliferation of poorly-thought-out and lackluster caches. I've also seen that some who tout their 1K+ or 2K+ finds readily boast of finding 40-50 caches per day and log each with "2 of 40" and "15 of 40". And THEN these same cachers go on to try and belittle those with <1000 caches. :(

 

Can you blame me for not wanting to be a part of that?

Edited by Markwell

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I could not agree more, Markwell....

Edited by brdad

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I would also like the ability to remove my Find count from my logs. That number does not contribute to my enjoyment of geocaching and I would like to be able to opt out of that system.

I cannot think of any reason to publicly display that number on every log that I write.

Many geocachers in the area in which I live do not log online at all, they do this to distance themselves from controversy concerning numbers. The numbers problem is real, I can show you forum posts from geocachers who were accosted online or in email by complete strangers complaining about a perceived lack of integrity.

The geocachers who opt out of logging caches online might become Premium members and log online if they were allowed to opt out of the public display of their Find count.

In reading these forums there are very few geocachers who insist that numbers are important so perhaps this type of change might be well received by the community in general.

Thank you.

 

I have my own beef with 'found' logs and numbers - mostly because I _have been_ harassed via email by other cachers who feel they should be able to tell me what I can and cannot do in the caching world... or to point out that they have more finds than me... or to let me know they noticed I did x,y, and z over the weekend... or that I was with [insert random cachers name here].

 

Finally I got fed up and changed all of my finds to notes.

 

I would wholeheartedly support 'hiding' numbers by choice, but even moreso , I would wholeheartedly support not being able to 'track' people's finds via a cachers profile page. You know --> Profile --> Geocaches.

 

Until that happens, I'll keep to not logging my finds online, or only logging them as notes when the mood strikes.

 

Quite honestly, I have no bloody idea what my cache find count is these days, nor do I care.

 

michelle

 

I would love it if there were a feature where the profile, or at least the cache logs, could be hidden from people except those who are on the friends list or something similar.

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My guess is that there are 10 geocachers that would NOT show their numbers.

Remember that those of us on the forums are in whole, a tiny microcosm of the sport.

The largest group of cachers have never seen the forums, and don't log on-line.

 

I personally use the number count to determine if I should look for a cache after it is logged with a DNF.

If the DNF'er is a very low count, I may hunt for it. If the DNF'er has thousands of finds, I usually skip it.

 

Save me 7 minutes, and leave the stats on. :(

Microcosm or not the forums are still a sample of the population. I agree that the +/- error would be high because the sample size is small, but I would gladly bet that it is a lot more than 10 people! Also if were were just 10 people then why would anybody object? I think the objections show that many people think it would be a big chunk that would somehow threaten the way they play the game. Like I said I really don't care either way but I think people have a right to play the game the way they want per Markwell's remarks. :(

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I would love it if there were a feature where the profile, or at least the cache logs, could be hidden from people except those who are on the friends list or something similar.

Oh, great idea! And, how about if we hide all webpage activity from all other members of QC.com, and secretly find caches, but don't log them, and move TB's around, but don't log them, and have event caches, but don't notify anybody of the event, and claim it's only because we don't want to be accused of competing with anybody!

 

Sheesh....!

 

Sorta defeats the purpose, hmmm?

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I like the numbers. However, I don't see any reason that there shouldn't be a simple switch available for those who don't care to have their numbers show. I really love to see logs on my caches and to read them on other folk's caches. I think that having the ability to hide one's numbers might actually encourage more folks to log online.

 

I really don't understand what the big controversy is. Let folks who don't mind their numbers showing keep things the way they are. Let the folks who don't want their numbers to show have that option. Why does that idea upset people so?

Edited by Thrak

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I don't care about the numbers. However, I like my numbers. I know that each one equals a cache I have found, or one Event I have attended. :( I wouldn't hide my numbers. :ph34r:

 

That said, if having the ability to hide numbers would encourage people who don't log online now to do so, then I guess I would vote for this feature . . . otherwise I don't understand what the big deal is . . . :(

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....if having the ability to hide numbers would encourage people who don't log online now to do so, then I guess I would vote for this feature . . .

 

I personally know 4 cachers that have never logged online. This feature might encourage one of them to start. Here are the reasons they gave me:

 

Fear of privacy issue connected with posting "anything" onto the Internet at anytime. (ok not real rational but I get it)

 

"Really have nothing to say that would interest anybody" (I disagree but his opinion stands)

 

"I like that I can participate and have an impact and yet be so anonymous - like the wind." (odd but ok)

 

"I am embarassed about How low my finds are and that I am so terrible about finding them. I don't want anybody to know about it. But I enjoy going out"

 

I think only the last person would so much as consider logging - even then i doubt it.

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I would love it if there were a feature where the profile, or at least the cache logs, could be hidden from people except those who are on the friends list or something similar.

Oh, great idea! And, how about if we hide all webpage activity from all other members of QC.com, and secretly find caches, but don't log them, and move TB's around, but don't log them, and have event caches, but don't notify anybody of the event, and claim it's only because we don't want to be accused of competing with anybody!

 

Sheesh....!

 

Sorta defeats the purpose, hmmm?

 

Who's purpose? Yours?

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I just like knowing the "relative" number of finds a cacher has.
Maybe some folks think it's none of your business.

What do you care? That's always your mantra -- "Play the game your own way"... Yet, you sure care a lot about other people seeing your find count.. Wonder why that is?

Gee, I've gone from being accused of trying to force folks to cache my way to telling folks to cache your own way. Kind of like a right-wing, commie, liberal, conservative hippie--depending on who you're talking to.

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I would love it if there were a feature where the profile, or at least the cache logs, could be hidden from people except those who are on the friends list or something similar.

Oh, great idea! And, how about if we hide all webpage activity from all other members of QC.com, and secretly find caches, but don't log them, and move TB's around, but don't log them, and have event caches, but don't notify anybody of the event, and claim it's only because we don't want to be accused of competing with anybody!

 

Sheesh....!

 

Sorta defeats the purpose, hmmm?

 

Who's purpose? Yours?

Yep. Mine and a majority of the other people (not necessarily on the forums, either) who use GC.com as their geocaching domain. Mine and a HUGE majority of the other members. From what I can tell, mine and all but a very smal handful of people, most of which are very vocal on the forums.

 

I personally don't know a single cacher who doesn't log online. Not that there aren't any, but I don't know of any. I also don't know of any who don't like the numbers, either. At least none of the regulars in my neck of the woods.

 

IMHO, if you don't like the numbers, don't become a member. Go find all the caches you want to, and don't log a single one of them. I personally don't care.

 

But, if you log, let the rest of us see the numbers. Because, contrary to what a very few people seem to think, most of the members use the numbers for one reason or another.

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