Reviewer FTFs

[+egami]

I was very careful in crafting this particular cache page to ensure any reviewer would not have an advantage and that there could be no doubt about the validity of the find, but unfortunately I didn't account for a person's ability to jump to conclusions without all the facts.

 

It's still brings up a good question.

 

Should reviewers be FTF on caches with money when they have the advantage of publishing the cache at possibly their convenience and getting first crack at it?

 

Regardless of the integrity of the reviewer to have to jump through the proper hoops this is still a good question, imo.

[+sbell111]

I was very careful in crafting this particular cache page to ensure any reviewer would not have an advantage and that there could be no doubt about the validity of the find, but unfortunately I didn't account for a person's ability to jump to conclusions without all the facts.

It's still brings up a good question.

 

Should reviewers be FTF on caches with money when they have the advantage of publishing the cache at possibly their convenience and getting first crack at it?

 

Regardless of the integrity of the reviewer to have to jump through the proper hoops this is still a good question, imo.

I trust the reviewers. I could seriously care less if they find a cache prior to someone else.

 

If there's a pattern, raise a flag to Groundspeak.

[Keystone]

I am not insinuating you shouldn't be allowed to play the game like others. However, by the very nature of the fact that you dictate when the cache hits the streets you're at a competative advantage, so it's not "like everyone else" in that regard.

Due to the "insta-notify" feature, I'd argue that even the advantage of timing is removed from the reviewer. (Well, except when there's a problem with the e-mail server, of course!) Anyone with insta-notify finds out about the cache being published pretty much the same time when I do. They can then hop in the car to go get that FTF. Now, of course, I could drive to the trailhead and publish the cache in my car using a mobile WiFi connection, and I don't think that would be fair! More realistically: having published a cache five miles from my house, I turn to the next cache, which might be in Toledo, because that owner is entitled to a prompt review, too. My last FTF was accidental, and occurred in August 2004 on a cache more than 150 miles from my home that I published before leaving for a road trip.

 

For traditional caches, reviewers have no real advantage because we see the same maps, coordinates, etc. as everyone else does. So, we can be the FTF on those whenever we want. If the reviewer made a habit of it, I'm sure there'd still be complaints. So I don't do it, even though I *could* if I wanted to. I used to enjoy being the FTF but I would not enjoy it anymore.

 

For puzzle caches and multicaches, it's best to wait for someone else to get the FTF, or to allow enough time to pass that everyone says "gee, we sure had our fair chance at FTF" and nobody gets bent out of shape. Or, I could just ask another reviewer to publish the puzzle cache near my home so that I could try to solve it and be the FTF. (This is hypothetical as everyone knows I am terrible at puzzles.)

[+egami]

I am not insinuating you shouldn't be allowed to play the game like others. However, by the very nature of the fact that you dictate when the cache hits the streets you're at a competative advantage, so it's not "like everyone else" in that regard.

Due to the "insta-notify" feature, I'd argue that even the advantage of timing is removed from the reviewer. (Well, except when there's a problem with the e-mail server, of course!) Anyone with insta-notify finds out about the cache being published pretty much the same time when I do. They can then hop in the car to go get that FTF. Now, of course, I could drive to the trailhead and publish the cache in my car using a mobile WiFi connection, and I don't think that would be fair! More realistically: having published a cache five miles from my house, I turn to the next cache, which might be in Toledo, because that owner is entitled to a prompt review, too. My last FTF was accidental, and occurred in August 2004 on a cache more than 150 miles from my home that I published before leaving for a road trip.

 

For traditional caches, reviewers have no real advantage because we see the same maps, coordinates, etc. as everyone else does. So, we can be the FTF on those whenever we want. If the reviewer made a habit of it, I'm sure there'd still be complaints. So I don't do it, even though I *could* if I wanted to. I used to enjoy being the FTF but I would not enjoy it anymore.

 

For puzzle caches and multicaches, it's best to wait for someone else to get the FTF, or to allow enough time to pass that everyone says "gee, we sure had our fair chance at FTF" and nobody gets bent out of shape. Or, I could just ask another reviewer to publish the puzzle cache near my home so that I could try to solve it and be the FTF. (This is hypothetical as everyone knows I am terrible at puzzles.)

 

Yeah, I was mainly contesting that an approver could wait to approve when it's convenient to their schedule. Not that they get notified earlier per se. In the case of a "puzzle" cache that time could by them solving the puzzle.

 

Just to clarify.

 

And, again, I don't see this is a major problem...just hypothetical and I like that TPTB seem to maintain a pretty ethical position in dealing with potential abusers of the system.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

I was very careful in crafting this particular cache page to ensure any reviewer would not have an advantage and that there could be no doubt about the validity of the find, but unfortunately I didn't account for a person's ability to jump to conclusions without all the facts.

 

It's still brings up a good question.

 

Should reviewers be FTF on caches with money when they have the advantage of publishing the cache at possibly their convenience and getting first crack at it?

 

Regardless of the integrity of the reviewer to have to jump through the proper hoops this is still a good question, imo.

I feel that reviewers should, with very rare exceptions which would likely be obvious, have an equal chance --- if they wish -- to be FTF on caches. Obviously, there may be a few times when they may need to use a bit of discretion, if only for sake of appearances, but I would not sweat about it.

[Jeremy]

 

Should reviewers be FTF on caches with money when they have the advantage of publishing the cache at possibly their convenience and getting first crack at it?

 

 

I wish caches didn't have money in them.

 

The reviewer policy is to give me the chance to FTF any caches with money in them before publishing them. This allows me to subsidize my jet fuel. Gas prices are pretty atrocious these days!

[+wandererrob]

Not that it's been said otherwise, but... I think it's worth mentioning that reviewers, to the best of my knowledge, are invited to be so by TPTB for having a solid, up-standing reputation in the geocaching community. I'm not saying it isn't possible for some shenanigans to take place, but I tend to think the vast majority of reviewers above such behavior.

 

They don't get to be reviewers by be slippery little buggers.

 

Or is that how they slip in the their in the first place.

[+wandererrob]

The reviewer policy is to give me the chance to FTF any caches with money in them before publishing them. This allows me to subsidize my jet fuel. Gas prices are pretty atrocious these days!

 

[+StarBrand]

 

Should reviewers be FTF on caches with money when they have the advantage of publishing the cache at possibly their convenience and getting first crack at it?

 

 

I wish caches didn't have money in them.

 

The reviewer policy is to give me the chance to FTF any caches with money in them before publishing them. This allows me to subsidize my jet fuel. Gas prices are pretty atrocious these days!

 

Seriously, I trust ALL the reviewers just based on the charcter of the 4 or 5 I have personally met. FTF is a perception/contest created by cachers not by the website. I know that the reviewers will "earn" the find just like everybody else. I know most will wait a few days to give others the chance to find first but figure it is out for anybody to find after that. Either way, I trust them not to "use" the system to get an advantage.

[+Snoogans]

Reviewer FTFs, Should they or shouldn't they?

 

 

They're cachers too!

 

 

I wish caches didn't have money in them.

 

 

Me too.

 

 

I trade extra for all the money and change I find in caches. Foreign money is the only thing I leave behind.

 

 

The last thing we need is muggles thinking there's real money to be found in caches.

[+Kit Fox]

I've never even worried weather or not a reviewer would be FTF on my cache. Me, personally, i'm more worried about feeding my family, paying my bills, and buying gas for my vehicles, rather than who gets FTF.

 

On a side note:

 

I know of a reviewer who enjoys publishing caches at 2:00 or 3:00 am, just for the FTF chasers. The reviewer envisions a bunch of FTF hounds being awakened by email alerts, on their cell phones, while their "other halves" shaked their heads, and go back to

 

sleep.

 

Seriously, I trust ALL the reviewers just based on the charcter of the 4 or 5 I have personally met. FTF is a perception/contest created by cachers not by the website. I know that the reviewers will "earn" the find just like everybody else. I know most will wait a few days to give others the chance to find first but figure it is out for anybody to find after that. Either way, I trust them not to "use" the system to get an advantage.

 

Excellent point, FTF is the "OCD" of geocaching.

Edited May 17, 2007 by Kit Fox

[+egami]

 

Should reviewers be FTF on caches with money when they have the advantage of publishing the cache at possibly their convenience and getting first crack at it?

 

 

I wish caches didn't have money in them.

 

The reviewer policy is to give me the chance to FTF any caches with money in them before publishing them. This allows me to subsidize my jet fuel. Gas prices are pretty atrocious these days!

 

I thought that was what PM was for.

[+WeightMan]

This has nothing to do with reviewer FTFs, but at a recent event there was a question raised by one cacher to a reviewer who was there. That reviewer looked at the cache which had a hold on it. It appeared that the hold was there only to get the cache published the morning of the event (which was a breakfast) and so that reviewer published it at that time. Cell phones were heard going off all over the event.

[Keystone]

I know of a reviewer who enjoys publishing caches at 2:00 or 3:00 am, just for the FTF chasers. The reviewer envisions a bunch of FTF hounds being awakened by email alerts, on their cell phones, while their "other halves" shaked their heads, and go back to sleep.

[+sbell111]

I know of a reviewer who enjoys publishing caches at 2:00 or 3:00 am, just for the FTF chasers. The reviewer envisions a bunch of FTF hounds being awakened by email alerts, on their cell phones, while their "other halves" shaked their heads, and go back to sleep.

That still looks like scuba-signal, to me.

[Cascade Reviewer]

I feel my ears burning. Twice.

[+tobe4evr1]

I don't think a reviewer should use their position to give them an advantage on a cache.

 

If they want to use the privileged information they possess they should wait till after there is a FTF posted.

 

Especially if there is a prize involved.

[Keystone]

What advantage does a reviewer have in finding a traditional cache? See my prior post.

And when finding puzzles and multicaches, we do NOT use the privileged information acquired during the review process. For one thing, it's hidden from view on the "player" version of the cache page. For another thing, we review so many caches we can't remember the details anyways. And for a third thing, it's unethical. But to avoid the appearance of impropriety, it's a good idea to refrain from attempting an FTF, as I noted in my prior post.

[+briansnat]

As Keystone mentioned, reviewers really don't have much of an advantage in the day of insta-notification. I think however that most (if not all) reviewers will wait a reasonable amount of time before attempting a cache just to avoid the appearance of impropriety. Now if a cache is published on Monday morning and still sitting unfound on Tuesday evening, then all bets are off.

 

If a reviewer were found to be abusing his position to get FTFs, cheat on puzzles, etc.. I don't think he would remain a reviewer very long.

[+egami]

What advantage does a reviewer have in finding a traditional cache? See my prior post.

 

A FTF prize.

 

And when finding puzzles and multicaches, we do NOT use the privileged information acquired during the review process. For one thing, it's hidden from view on the "player" version of the cache page. For another thing, we review so many caches we can't remember the details anyways. And for a third thing, it's unethical. But to avoid the appearance of impropriety, it's a good idea to refrain from attempting an FTF, as I noted in my prior post.

 

I agree with this and I don't have an issue with reviewers being FTF of any type of cache so long as it's not conveniently when a prize is involved or something.

 

Like I said before...TPTB seem to have high standards and as stated by others they wouldn't last long if that were the case.

Edited May 17, 2007 by egami

[Cascade Reviewer]

Clarifying my earlier post:

 

My ears aren't burning because of FTF issues. I can't remember the last time I got a FTF. Not something that's important in my life. I'm just happy whenever I can go caching!

[+StarBrand]

What advantage does a reviewer have in finding a traditional cache? See my prior post.

 

A FTF prize.

 

....

Yes but how do they have any advantage over every other area cacher?? Except for maybe knowing the coordinates 2 minutes sooner. And as stated most all of them will wait a day or 2 for others to get FTF before heading out themselves.

[Keystone]

What advantage does a reviewer have in finding a traditional cache? See my prior post.

 

A FTF prize.

OK. A fair point! Although that's not really an advantage because one has to find the cache first, and I have no more information than the next guy. I do suppose that a reviewer making a habit of picking up valuable FTF gifts would not be looked upon kindly by those living in the area.

 

I pretty much quit trading about 1,500 finds ago, and my last FTF was in August 2004, so I wasn't thinking of this. When I do leave something in a cache, it's either an unexpected bonus prize of $20 or an unactivated geocoin for the next finder.

 

Although at one recent cache that I *wanted* to find right away because it was so cool, I did trade after someone else found the cache. I left an unactivated mtn-man Admin Brick geocoin because there was a book in the cache that I just *had* to have:

 

 

A book about llamas is far more important than an FTF prize.

Edited May 17, 2007 by Keystone

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

What advantage does a reviewer have in finding a traditional cache? See my prior post.

 

A FTF prize.

OK. A fair point! Although that's not really an advantage because one has to find the cache first, and I have no more information than the next guy. I do suppose that a reviewer making a habit of picking up valuable FTF gifts would not be looked upon kindly by those living in the area.

 

I pretty much quit trading about 1,500 finds ago, and my last FTF was in August 2004, so I wasn't thinking of this. When I do leave something in a cache, it's either an unexpected bonus prize of $20 or an unactivated geocoin for the next finder.

 

Although at one recent cache that I *wanted* to find right away because it was so cool, I did trade after someone else found the cache. I left an unactivated mtn-man Admin Brick geocoin because there was a book in the cache that I just *had* to have:

 

 

A book about llamas is far more important than an FTF prize.

 

I thought you were supposed to mail the $20.00 bonus prizes directly to Jeremy to help him save on jet fuel.

 

As for the topic, reviewers are cachers to, they already give up alot of their free time to approve caches without pay, if they want to grab a few FTF's, even ones with $50.00 prizes, I have NO problem with that.

[+WeightMan]

Clarifying my earlier post:

 

My ears aren't burning because of FTF issues. I can't remember the last time I got a FTF. Not something that's important in my life. I'm just happy whenever I can go caching!

You were also the reviewer that had the hold on the cache I was talking about.

 

[Cascade Reviewer]

Clarifying my earlier post:

 

My ears aren't burning because of FTF issues. I can't remember the last time I got a FTF. Not something that's important in my life. I'm just happy whenever I can go caching!

You were also the reviewer that had the hold on the cache I was talking about.

 

Yup. One of the reasons why my ears were burning. The other is listing caches at 2am.

[+TexasGringo]

***This allows me to subsidize my jet fuel. Gas prices are pretty atrocious these days***

 

Yea, my YUGO used to burn JET-A too....Now I have to use 80/87 (The Red Stuff).

[+Silny Jako Bek]

I can see a potential problem with reviewers and puzzle caches aside from the FTF issue. Many puzzles are easier to figure out "backwards" (figuring out the gag for the puzzle from the actual coordinates). A reviewer would have easy access to the final coordinates, and even if he/she decided that they could not find the cache until they figured out how to arrive at the actual coordinates, they would still have an advantage. And it would be almost impossible to know if someone was taking advantage of their position as a reviewer if they were using this method to figure out puzzles.

[+Bad_CRC]

Seems like a fair trade for reviewers to get FTF in return for all the work they do.

 

Also seems pretty unlikely that they could travel the entire area/state of their reviews.

 

Our reviewer said that it was the end of his FTFs when he took the reviewer position, and I think most reviewers would do the same just to avoid any complainers.

 

I really don't care, as it's always the same 2 or 3 people who get all the FTFs around here anyway, so nobody but those people probably would even notice.

[+Thrak]

If my reviewer was after the FTF I'm sure I would have run into him at a cache by now. I have a 12.65% FTF rate.

 

Of course a reviewer could be FTF on a puzzle if they wanted to cheat. The wouldn't even have to solve the puzzle since you need to give them the REAL coordinates when you submit the cache so they can verify that the placement is ok. I just can't imagine anybody who was chosen to be a reviewer doing that. It's not like just anybody gets to be a reviewer. I'm a FTF freak and, if I should ever be made a reviewer (not likely!) I would cease to even look for caches that hadn't been found unless they had already been found by someone else.

 

I just don't think this is really an issue. I trust the integrity of the reviewers.

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

If my reviewer was after the FTF I'm sure I would have run into him at a cache by now. I have a 12.65% FTF rate.

 

Of course a reviewer could be FTF on a puzzle if they wanted to cheat. The wouldn't even have to solve the puzzle since you need to give them the REAL coordinates when you submit the cache so they can verify that the placement is ok. I just can't imagine anybody who was chosen to be a reviewer doing that. It's not like just anybody gets to be a reviewer. I'm a FTF freak and, if I should ever be made a reviewer (not likely!) I would cease to even look for caches that hadn't been found unless they had already been found by someone else.

 

I just don't think this is really an issue. I trust the integrity of the reviewers.

[+Moose Mob]

As far as I am concerned, any cache that hasn't been found in a week or so is fair game. As far as traditionals, I tend to let them sit for a few hours before I leave the house.

[+mtn-man]

I know of a reviewer who enjoys publishing caches at 2:00 or 3:00 am, just for the FTF chasers. The reviewer envisions a bunch of FTF hounds being awakened by email alerts, on their cell phones, while their "other halves" shaked their heads, and go back to sleep.

Oh my. That is so funny. I have never thought about that actually. I am a late night reviewer a lot of the time too. I also do it at work, so there are folks having the cell phones going off at work too I suppose. I can imagine the tease that must be to hardcore FTF hounds!

[+bilbad]

I got my 2nd FTF yesterday.... there was no FTF prize so I took a nice keychain and it was in a baggie so I wrote FTF prize on it and hung it here by my computer..... funny huh? I left a lotto ticket... now the 2nd to find could get 10000 bucks... I hope whoever finds it wins that much and it would not matter who it was! I feel a reviewer has about the same chance as me and this is not an issue.

[+Corp Of Discovery]

This same thing has come up a few times before. Reviewers have a huge advantage if they want to be FTF hounds in that they can see everything about any cache in their queue well before it gets published. I've never heard of any of them abusing that advantage tho.

[+sbell111]

...

...

Wow. It looks like you might be squeezing that hampster a little too hard.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Llama!

[+the mad cow]

...

...

Wow. It looks like you might be squeezing that hampster a little too hard.

I think Keystone had a bad experience with some animals when he was young!!

 

Hamsters, Llamas, Frogs... Is this turning into a Geo-Zoo??

[+Renegade Knight]

As far as I am concerned, any cache that hasn't been found in a week or so is fair game. As far as traditionals, I tend to let them sit for a few hours before I leave the house.

 

I'd go 24 hours. If any reviewer has waited 24 hours...that's more than enough time for non reviewers to have found it. It's fair game and the reviewer has more than let everone have a fair shot.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Rant Eradicated...

Edited May 18, 2007 by Renegade Knight

[+flask]

no one seems to have covered the reviewer advantage of simply knowing when a cache will be published.

 

i don't think reviewers have any business jumping to FTF in the first few hours. after that unless there's additional information like secondary coordinates, the field is level and it's all fair game.

 

i used to like the days before insta- notify. it took dedication to hunt up new listings. now everyone and his dog can get them sent to their phones. where's the sport in that?

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

no one seems to have covered the reviewer advantage of simply knowing when a cache will be published.

 

i don't think reviewers have any business jumping to FTF in the first few hours. after that unless there's additional information like secondary coordinates, the field is level and it's all fair game.

 

i used to like the days before insta- notify. it took dedication to hunt up new listings. now everyone and his dog can get them sent to their phones. where's the sport in that?

 

I won't let my dog have a phone until he gets a job and starts supporting himself, as long as I'm paying the bills I get the only phone.

[Clan Riffster]

I'd go 24 hours. If any reviewer has waited 24 hours...that's more than enough time for non reviewers to have found it.

Around here, I'd wait 10 minutes. FTF'ers are crawling out of the woodwork in these parts.

[+Miragee]

Yup, around here that's about how long our Reviewer would have to wait.

 

FTF Event #1

 

FTF Event #2

 

For Puzzle Caches, our Reviewer will wait several days to a week before going for a FTF.

[+Michael]

no one seems to have covered the reviewer advantage of simply knowing when a cache will be published.

 

i don't think reviewers have any business jumping to FTF in the first few hours. after that unless there's additional information like secondary coordinates, the field is level and it's all fair game.

 

i used to like the days before insta- notify. it took dedication to hunt up new listings. now everyone and his dog can get them sent to their phones. where's the sport in that?

 

With the instant notify, on a traditional, everyone is on the same playing field. The reviewers have their own practices when it comes to FTF's. It boils down to trust. If you trust the reviewer then you don't worry about him cheating. If you don't trust your reviewer then it really doest matter. You will believe that he is cheating no matter what the guidelines for the reviewer are. Its that simple.

Edited May 18, 2007 by Michael

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

no one seems to have covered the reviewer advantage of simply knowing when a cache will be published.

 

i don't think reviewers have any business jumping to FTF in the first few hours. after that unless there's additional information like secondary coordinates, the field is level and it's all fair game.

 

i used to like the days before insta- notify. it took dedication to hunt up new listings. now everyone and his dog can get them sent to their phones. where's the sport in that?

 

With the instant notify, on a traditional, everyone is on the same playing field. The reviewers have their own practices when it comes to FTF's. It boils down to trust. If you trust the reviewer then you don't worry about him cheating. If you don't trust your reviewer then it really doest matter. You will believe that he is cheating no matter what the guidelines for the reviewer are. Its that simple.

 

Here Here! Well said and 100% true. I just wish I had a clapping Signal emoticon to put here.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

no one seems to have covered the reviewer advantage of simply knowing when a cache will be published.

 

i don't think reviewers have any business jumping to FTF in the first few hours. after that unless there's additional information like secondary coordinates, the field is level and it's all fair game.

 

i used to like the days before insta- notify. it took dedication to hunt up new listings. now everyone and his dog can get them sent to their phones. where's the sport in that?

 

With the instant notify, on a traditional, everyone is on the same playing field. The reviewers have their own practices when it comes to FTF's. It boils down to trust. If you trust the reviewer then you don't worry about him cheating. If you don't trust your reviewer then it really doest matter. You will believe that he is cheating no matter what the guidelines for the reviewer are. Its that simple.

Well put. And the unhappy paranoids will continue to create their own realities, in which they will continue to feel sure that they have been betrayed or cheated by their local reviewer, regardless of what the reviewer may or may not have done. Much as Ed (AR) wrote the other day, much of what a person experiences in this sport lies entirely in what they bring to it. If they walk in the door caryring bucketload of suspicion and hostility, they are bound to have some experiences that they will label as "bad experiences".

Edited May 19, 2007 by Vinny & Sue Team

[+flask]

are you guys hinting that i'm unhappy or malcontent?

 

i'm not ever afraid that my reviewer is jumping the gun. for starters, he's an upstanding guy. beyond that, he couldn't get a FTF around here if he flew in by helicopter.

 

i was under the impression that the thread was about whether or not reviewers should race for FTF, rather than if people are worried about this happening. there is an advantage in knowing when a cache is going to pop up. maybe it isn't a significant advantage, but it is an advantage.

 

were i a reviewer, i would feel i had to recuse myself from FTF hunts for at least several hours after the publication, if for no other reason than the appearance of being above reproach. there's a lot of petty squabbling that goes on down on the ground and i believe that the reviewer needs to stay above the fray.

 

as for the insta-notify, you used to have to be thinking. you used to have to be ready. nowadays you just get a message and so does everyone else. it takes a lot of the edge off. i miss the days when i used to get up in the night to check for new caches. i'd be out of the house by five to drive across the state in a snowstorm.

 

these days everyone who has a phone has the same information at the same time, whether or not they were looking for it. i miss the old way; there was something sharp and predatory about it.

[+Hemlock]

I've only managed 4 FTFs since I started reviewing 4 years ago.

 

The most fun I've had on an "almost FTF" was one that I reviewed at work at the end of the day. It was about 2 miles from the office, in a location I was very familiar with. I hit the Publish button, then shut down my laptop and packed it in its case. I stopped by the restroom, walked to the lobby, entered the alarm code to activate it, and walked to my car. I arrived at the cache site about 8 minutes after it was published.

 

There was a crowd of a dozen cachers standing in the parking lot. They had already found the cache and returned it to its hiding place and watched and laughed at me as I searched for it.

 

One of them was sitting in that very parking lot, 100 feet from the cache, when she got the Insta-notify on her phone. Most of the others were driving home when they got the notify.

 

Another time I stopped at a drive-thru on the way to the cache. I arrived and no one was there so I thought I was FTF. I opened the log to find 2 others had already been there just minutes before (the logs included the time).

 

Two of the actual FTFs were on caches hundreds of miles from home, weeks after they were published. One of those was a 3.5 star difficulty that had 3 DNFs before me and I was the first one to actually find it.

[+TrailGators]

What advantage does a reviewer have in finding a traditional cache? See my prior post.

 

A FTF prize.

OK. A fair point! Although that's not really an advantage because one has to find the cache first, and I have no more information than the next guy. I do suppose that a reviewer making a habit of picking up valuable FTF gifts would not be looked upon kindly by those living in the area.

 

I pretty much quit trading about 1,500 finds ago, and my last FTF was in August 2004, so I wasn't thinking of this. When I do leave something in a cache, it's either an unexpected bonus prize of $20 or an unactivated geocoin for the next finder.

 

Although at one recent cache that I *wanted* to find right away because it was so cool, I did trade after someone else found the cache. I left an unactivated mtn-man Admin Brick geocoin because there was a book in the cache that I just *had* to have:

 

 

A book about llamas is far more important than an FTF prize.