Question for those who geocache armed:

[+rdaines]

Thinking about adding a gun rack to the ATV I haven't bought yet. Probably not the smatest idea since you can't leave it onthe ATV when you arrive at a hiking point and there's allows the potential for a crash.

[+escondido100]

aloha.... i have a Taurus 9mm that i would take with me when i traveled around oregon. now that i live in hawaii it is another matter.....all guns MUST be registered and in order to carry a handgun you must have firearm certification(class) and have a permit in addition to registration..... the law technically allows for a concealed permit but the word MAY instead of MUST sprinkled throughout the law allows the sherrif or chief of police extreme latitude in issuing such.... that being said... there is no record of any police chief issuing a concealed permit. also if you have a handgun it can only be present on your property or in your vehicle while travelling to and from a firing range or place of hunting.....you cant just drive around with it in plain view on the seat next to you .if transporting it must be in a secure container seperate from ammunition if its for hunting you must have a hunting license and comply with all the above....since you really cant hunt with a pistol easily you would have to have a rifle along as well. very cumbersome laws here..... also as an alternative form of protection pepper spray and stun guns are illegal as well......you may have a very weak and very small type of spray but no one sells it here and no one will send it thru the mails.......soooo as much as you might like to carry while caching ...you just cant feasibly do so. some of our remote caches have feral pigs present that it sure would be nice to have a way to fend them off...as it is common for the boars to attack.because of the way the laws are written, hawaii doesnt show up as a state that has restrictive laws on concealed carry.

[+Confucius' Cat]

aloha.... i have a Taurus 9mm that i would take with me when i traveled around oregon. now that i live in hawaii it is another matter.....all guns MUST be registered and in order to carry a handgun you must have firearm certification(class) and have a permit in addition to registration..... the law technically allows for a concealed permit but the word MAY instead of MUST sprinkled throughout the law allows the sherrif or chief of police extreme latitude in issuing such.... that being said... there is no record of any police chief issuing a concealed permit. also if you have a handgun it can only be present on your property or in your vehicle while travelling to and from a firing range or place of hunting.....you cant just drive around with it in plain view on the seat next to you .if transporting it must be in a secure container seperate from ammunition if its for hunting you must have a hunting license and comply with all the above....since you really cant hunt with a pistol easily you would have to have a rifle along as well. very cumbersome laws here..... also as an alternative form of protection pepper spray and stun guns are illegal as well......you may have a very weak and very small type of spray but no one sells it here and no one will send it thru the mails.......soooo as much as you might like to carry while caching ...you just cant feasibly do so. some of our remote caches have feral pigs present that it sure would be nice to have a way to fend them off...as it is common for the boars to attack.because of the way the laws are written, hawaii doesnt show up as a state that has restrictive laws on concealed carry.

Wow!

Do you have to register a rock if you pick it up in the woods?

I thought we accepted Hawaii as a STATE!

(not much different from A FEW other states though)

Amendment 2 is the only constitutional right for which you need a permit to exercise it. Funny, huh?

[+KadoKashers]

Reading this thread makes me jealous. I love Canada but our handgun laws are so strict that having one legally is pretty much useless. The best thing we can carry up here is a 12 guage defender and that will be going in my backpack. Only for bears if ever needed. I am not a big fan of urban cacheing.

Edited June 3, 2007 by KadoKashers

[+Confucius' Cat]

Reading this thread makes me jealous. I love Canada but our handgun laws are so strict that having one legally is pretty much useless. The best thing we can carry up here is a 12 guage defender and that will be going in my backpack. Only for bears if ever needed. I am not a big fan of urban cacheing.

Not wanting to stray too far afield, but if this is really important to anyone, the simple solution is: move.

 

Everything has a priority and everyone prioritizes differently. If we live in a free country (I realise some who might read this do not), we can choose based on our personal priorities and then we ultimately weigh the options and take the good with the not so good wherever we land.

 

Since you "love Canada" (something that is heard VERY OFTEN from Canadians), I'm sure you will "bite the bullet" (pls excuse the awful pun) and stay where you are.

 

I am one that DOES consider my firearm rights important.

 

I grew up in the same house for 25 yrs or so and I had this idea that there wasn't any place else to live.

 

My experience in the town of my birth was that you could not keep anything in your yard or your car without it being stolen and when you walked the streets you stood a good chance of giving up your wallet to some ******* with a club or a knife or just a few more people than were walking with you.

 

My dad was robbed INSIDE Krogers!

 

When I finally came to the realisation that there were the same McDonalds and Coca-Cola anywhere i went, it was extremely liberating.

 

When I was looking to "move on" (and up) in my company and as I checked out available internal opportunities, I checked packing.org before I even submitted a resume'. If the firearms laws sucked, they did not get my resume'.

 

To get back on topic, how to carry when carrying is not allowed is a tough subject. It is kinda interesting that for the 25 odd years that i have carried, I have only had one person ever comment on noticing I was armed. At that time, my police ID and badge made it irrelevant.

 

My point here is, not intending to encourage anything illegal, but that if one hides it well, does not go looking for trouble, and stays out of places where one is likely to get frisked for whatever reason, one is very unlikely to ever get in trouble for carrying a gun. The biggest drawback is that one would get in a lot of extra trouble if one did have to use it- in some places even if it was clearly used in defence of imminent danger to one's life.

 

A gun dealer advised me (yes, i know he wants to SELL guns) "you have to make a personal decision regarding carrying where you are not supposed to carry - is the risk on your life significant enough to risk the consequences of getting caught?"

[+rdaines]

aloha.... i have a Taurus 9mm that i would take with me when i traveled around oregon. now that i live in hawaii it is another matter.....all guns MUST be registered and in order to carry a handgun you must have firearm certification(class) and have a permit in addition to registration..... the law technically allows for a concealed permit but the word MAY instead of MUST sprinkled throughout the law allows the sherrif or chief of police extreme latitude in issuing such.... that being said... there is no record of any police chief issuing a concealed permit. also if you have a handgun it can only be present on your property or in your vehicle while travelling to and from a firing range or place of hunting.....you cant just drive around with it in plain view on the seat next to you .if transporting it must be in a secure container seperate from ammunition if its for hunting you must have a hunting license and comply with all the above....since you really cant hunt with a pistol easily you would have to have a rifle along as well. very cumbersome laws here..... also as an alternative form of protection pepper spray and stun guns are illegal as well......you may have a very weak and very small type of spray but no one sells it here and no one will send it thru the mails.......soooo as much as you might like to carry while caching ...you just cant feasibly do so. some of our remote caches have feral pigs present that it sure would be nice to have a way to fend them off...as it is common for the boars to attack.because of the way the laws are written, hawaii doesnt show up as a state that has restrictive laws on concealed carry.

 

That's' a tough break with the gun laws out in such a beautiful state, I'm sure the criminals obey those laws to the letter too. Gee and no one driving with a loaded weapon in the car, certainly don't see that in MO but that is what concealed carry is all about, concealed means concealed. So let's say one did carry concealed while caching in Hawaii and one was attacked by a blood-thirsty pig and one did defend themselves and shoot said pig, what would happen (other than having a bloody pig)?

[+escondido100]

if you did carry while cachiing or any other activity and had touse your weapon....if it was in the wilds ..no one would know....however if you had to use it to protect yourself against a person..... from what i can tell you would be in big trouble....i think its a felony and you would be looking at aome jail time....or a very expensive defense in court.....sam with just being caught with an unregistered weapon....basically youcan have a gun to protect your own home but elsewhere your outta luck. I have spoke with several residents and all the ones that would admit to having a gun say they dont have it regisered....there is quite a bit of hunting here and in the rural areas youwill shots in th edistance quite often...probably the feral pigs....

the state just hired a company from new zealand to hunt pigs to control the damage they do....so you can see theydont sanction local people owning guns.....

[+rdaines]

if you did carry while cachiing or any other activity and had touse your weapon....if it was in the wilds ..no one would know....however if you had to use it to protect yourself against a person..... from what i can tell you would be in big trouble....i think its a felony and you would be looking at aome jail time....or a very expensive defense in court.....sam with just being caught with an unregistered weapon....basically youcan have a gun to protect your own home but elsewhere your outta luck. I have spoke with several residents and all the ones that would admit to having a gun say they dont have it regisered....there is quite a bit of hunting here and in the rural areas youwill shots in th edistance quite often...probably the feral pigs....

the state just hired a company from new zealand to hunt pigs to control the damage they do....so you can see theydont sanction local people owning guns.....

 

Not to take this thread too off topic but if one's life was in danger from some thug and one had a gun to protect and therefore, save their life, I'd rather have a lengthy trail and some jail time rather than be dead.

This would also apply to my family members as well. Saving them would be worth the consequences. Heck, you might even get off but not if you do nothing and die.

[+Confucius' Cat]

if you did carry while cachiing or any other activity and had touse your weapon....if it was in the wilds ..no one would know....however if you had to use it to protect yourself against a person..... from what i can tell you would be in big trouble....i think its a felony and you would be looking at aome jail time....or a very expensive defense in court.....sam with just being caught with an unregistered weapon....basically youcan have a gun to protect your own home but elsewhere your outta luck. I have spoke with several residents and all the ones that would admit to having a gun say they dont have it regisered....there is quite a bit of hunting here and in the rural areas youwill shots in th edistance quite often...probably the feral pigs....

the state just hired a company from new zealand to hunt pigs to control the damage they do....so you can see theydont sanction local people owning guns.....

 

Not to take this thread too off topic but if one's life was in danger from some thug and one had a gun to protect and therefore, save their life, I'd rather have a lengthy trail and some jail time rather than be dead.

This would also apply to my family members as well. Saving them would be worth the consequences. Heck, you might even get off but not if you do nothing and die.

The "rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6" thing is well true, but the real issue in carrying illegally is what if you get caught carrying in a situation where you DIDN'T need the gun and didn't even willfully SHOW it to anyone, such as if you were pulled over and frisked because somebody with the same colour skin as yours stole a pack of cigarettes from the 7-11 a couple of blocks back?

 

IMO, this is the MUCH greater risk- especially if your skin colour doesn't match that of the majority of residents in a given area or you drive the wrong kind of car or any number of other reasons which might render you "suspicious."

 

It would truly be a shame to spend years in prison for doing nothing more than exercising your rights as an American citizen.

 

Packing is outlawed in many places where people typically cache. Usually carrying in such places is not a felony though if you are otherwise allowed to legally carry and your chances of being caught if you are doing nothing wrong are pretty slim.

 

This is one reason I don't consider open carry a good idea. if you missed the "no firearms" sign on your way in and you are carrying openly, you are very likely to get caught. if you missed the sign and no one sees your hardware, no harm done.

[+rdaines]

if you did carry while cachiing or any other activity and had touse your weapon....if it was in the wilds ..no one would know....however if you had to use it to protect yourself against a person..... from what i can tell you would be in big trouble....i think its a felony and you would be looking at aome jail time....or a very expensive defense in court.....sam with just being caught with an unregistered weapon....basically youcan have a gun to protect your own home but elsewhere your outta luck. I have spoke with several residents and all the ones that would admit to having a gun say they dont have it regisered....there is quite a bit of hunting here and in the rural areas youwill shots in th edistance quite often...probably the feral pigs....

the state just hired a company from new zealand to hunt pigs to control the damage they do....so you can see theydont sanction local people owning guns.....

 

Not to take this thread too off topic but if one's life was in danger from some thug and one had a gun to protect and therefore, save their life, I'd rather have a lengthy trail and some jail time rather than be dead.

This would also apply to my family members as well. Saving them would be worth the consequences. Heck, you might even get off but not if you do nothing and die.

The "rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6" thing is well true, but the real issue in carrying illegally is what if you get caught carrying in a situation where you DIDN'T need the gun and didn't even willfully SHOW it to anyone, such as if you were pulled over and frisked because somebody with the same colour skin as yours stole a pack of cigarettes from the 7-11 a couple of blocks back?

 

IMO, this is the MUCH greater risk- especially if your skin colour doesn't match that of the majority of residents in a given area or you drive the wrong kind of car or any number of other reasons which might render you "suspicious."

 

It would truly be a shame to spend years in prison for doing nothing more than exercising your rights as an American citizen.

 

Packing is outlawed in many places where people typically cache. Usually carrying in such places is not a felony though if you are otherwise allowed to legally carry and your chances of being caught if you are doing nothing wrong are pretty slim.

 

This is one reason I don't consider open carry a good idea. if you missed the "no firearms" sign on your way in and you are carrying openly, you are very likely to get caught. if you missed the sign and no one sees your hardware, no harm done.

 

You make your choices, since I don't have a crystal ball, I don't know exactly when I might be attacked and therefore can't pick the optimal times for carrying. Know the laws in your area and know the consequences should you chose to break some of those laws. The 2nd Amendment has to been repealed yet.

[+pklong]

Wow you really do carry guns all the time! Who are you planning to shoot?

 

I'm from the UK so carrying a gun is out for me (nor would I want to). However I do carry a pen, and the pen is mightier than the sword and all that

[+pcunningham]

Wow you really do carry guns all the time! Who are you planning to shoot?

 

I'm from the UK so carrying a gun is out for me (nor would I want to). However I do carry a pen, and the pen is mightier than the sword and all that

 

Were I able to accurately plan for such an occurrence I would simply avoid the situation. However, not being endowed with omniscience, I prefer to be prepared to save my own life rather than rely on the government who, in the final analysis, are much better at writing reports with their pens than protecting my life with their guns.

Edited June 4, 2007 by pcunningham

[Clan Riffster]

the pen is mightier than the sword and all that

I've heard that before, and decided to put it to the test a few years ago. I own two swords, an Agincourt and a B@st@rd. I also own a bunch of pens, both the clicky kind and the non-clicky kind. In striking one with the other, my conclusion was that, in every single test, the sword beat the pen. I think this statement could only be valid if you owned a really big pen.

[+Recdiver]

Back to the OP. When I carry while caching I have it in a fanny pack. Is that obvious to most observant folks? Yep, do I care, nope. And I do have a concealed gun permit.

[+rdaines]

Back to the OP. When I carry while caching I have it in a fanny pack. Is that obvious to most observant folks? Yep, do I care, nope. And I do have a concealed gun permit.

 

I'm not sure that fanny packs scream, "Hey, I'm armed." We old folks have all kinds of thing to carry, fat wallets, second pair of glasses, glucose meter if diabetic (glucose tabs as well), keys, cell phone, PDA, and probably more. Heck, there's hardly any room now for Browning Hi-Power.

[+Confucius' Cat]

Wow you really do carry guns all the time! Who are you planning to shoot?

 

I'm from the UK so carrying a gun is out for me (nor would I want to). However I do carry a pen, and the pen is mightier than the sword and all that

Aye, the pen IS mightier than the sword m'lad, but woe to he that hath only a pen and needeth a sword!

[+schristi69]

No One Dares.....

 

http://img.geocaching.com/cache/log/f28137...fcddd678a14.jpg

 

My HOA would love to see that in my front yard.

 

And here is a link to very nice concealable holster

 

http://www.smartcarry.com/

Edited June 5, 2007 by schristi69

[+schristi69]

I usually carry a swiss army knife loose in my rucksack, but rarely use it

 

 

Yep, been dying for an opportunity to use the corkscrew

 

Back on-topic: Fanny-pack carry is considered 'concealed' here (AZ), so I use a holster. Those who do carry in a fanny--er, "lumbar"--pack: Isn't it difficult to lay hands on the weapon quickly? Same with other concealed carries; seems like it would take a lot of practice to be able to draw promptly under stress.

 

Fanny packes desigend for concealed carry are actually easy to get into. Most are held closed by Velcro. Just like everything else, practice makes perfect. Even a holster requires practice to detach any restraining system, draw, aim and shoot. The user should be intimately familiar with any system that holds your weapon so you are able to bring your weapon to bear as quickly and efficiently as possible. And in response to a previous post, if you do not have the desire and willingness to employ deadly force, then you have no reason to carry a hand gun and are more of a danger to yourself and everyone around you. A weapon in a backpack is useless unless you are given time to take it off and remove your weapon. Not a likely scenario.

 

Of course, primarily I would employ either my collapsible baton or hiking staff. Deadly forsce would be employed only as a last resort. Remember, your LIFE must be in imminent danger before you can employ deadly force.

[+Confucius' Cat]

<snip>

A weapon in a backpack is useless unless you are given time to take it off and remove your weapon. Not a likely scenario.

 

Of course, primarily I would employ either my collapsible baton or hiking staff. Deadly forsce would be employed only as a last resort. Remember, your LIFE must be in imminent danger before you can employ deadly force.

Re Backpack:

it is however a good way to carry the weapon to and from a campsite- especially if one is going to a remote campsite and carrying is frowned upon in the area. Although technically it would still be carrying a concealed weapon in most places, one is much less likely to get caught with it or to arouse any concern if it is in the backpack- especially if unloaded and ammo separate- in many cases this would be legal. It could be taken out and placed in a more ready position for personal protection after settling in for the night.

 

Re Deadly force:

 

There are two main risks for which I carry: animals (dogs mostly) and bad guys.

If attacked by an animal, i will shoot without hesitation.

 

People are another matter. As quoted above, deadly force can only (legally) be used when one's life is in imminent danger.

 

In reality, very few encounters can be considered "deadly".

 

I got involved in an incident several years ago in which I had my hand on my piece as I talked the "gentleman" out of attacking me. I did not "show" the piece... as far as I know, he never knew I had it.

 

After looking back on the incident, I came to the realisation that, if I had shot him, I would have very likely NOT been fully justified.

 

Having a gun as one's ONLY means of self-defence is foolish.

 

For me, this meant taking up martial arts. But MA takes a long time and a strong commitment to progress to the point where it MIGHT be useful. If nothing else, it DOES build confidence.

 

Those who feel the need to be armed whilst caching should additionally have some lesser means of SD as a primary tool for human encounters. As with the firearm, this means also must be readily available and easy to access, and the user must be well trained/practised in its use and willing to use it if needed.

[+Confucius' Cat]

 

And here is a link to very nice concealable holster

 

http://www.smartcarry.com/

Similar in carry position to the "pager holster". Tried the pager holster and it was NOT comfortable when sitting down.

 

I suspect that is also the case with any abdominal carry holster, though I have not tried any of them.

 

I can't imagine sitting down and driving for several hours with a full-size auto in that location.

[gearhog]

Geocaching seems to be a truly bi-partisan pastime. Tree huggers carrying firearms using missile guidance satellites. I guess the firearms would come in handy in some crime ridden big US cities or grizzly bear country. However , I dont see the need to pack anywhere else. If your worried about black bears just bring some bear spray and do some research on their behavior before your go caching. Then again maybe packing heat with your GPS gadget makes you feel like some kind of covert CIA operative lol

[+Criminal]

Geocaching seems to be a truly bi-partisan pastime. Tree huggers carrying firearms using missile guidance satellites. I guess the firearms would come in handy in some crime ridden big US cities or grizzly bear country. However , I dont see the need to pack anywhere else. If your worried about black bears just bring some bear spray and do some research on their behavior before your go caching. Then again maybe packing heat with your GPS gadget makes you feel like some kind of covert CIA operative lol

Yeah, and carrying a spare tire makes them feel like auto mechanics. I don't drive where there's nails in the road, so I pulled my spare out of the trunk.

 

I only wish everyone had your wisdom.

[+Renegade Knight]

... just bring some bear spray...

 

How do you conceal that?

[+schristi69]

 

And here is a link to very nice concealable holster

 

http://www.smartcarry.com/

Similar in carry position to the "pager holster". Tried the pager holster and it was NOT comfortable when sitting down.

 

I suspect that is also the case with any abdominal carry holster, though I have not tried any of them.

 

I can't imagine sitting down and driving for several hours with a full-size auto in that location.

 

I have one of those pager holsters and am not happy with it either. The weapon comes in contact with the skin and in the summer here....it gets covered in sweat. I can see the salt form my skin corroding the finish. I like the other holster as there is molster between you and the weapon.

[+rdaines]

Great, now you want me to become a martial arts expert. Not everyone involved in this sport may be fit or young enough for that nor agile enough to work a baton. Advising someone to first defend themselves using hands-on techniques seems foolish as I remember the quote "don't bring a knife to a gun fight". A handgun self defense course would be a better use of someone's time and money.

[Mr. and Mrs. A]

Even in rural areas crime is becoming more prevalent. My justification for carrying is simple, how ignorant would I feel if I got in a situation where a weapon MAY make a difference and I was legally allowed to carry and didn't? Especially, with my wife along....she's ravishing by the way! I carry a north american arms 22 mag or a baretta tomcat 32 cal, both fit in a pocket pretty comfortably. It isn't a lot of fire-power but just might make the difference between a bad situation and a tragic one. And, on occasion, when the wife is acting up a simple flash of the heat straightens her right out! Calm down PC, it was a joke. By the way, in PA concealed is the rule. Remember, safety first! Which reminds me, if you're not confident in your skills do us all a favor and leave the weapon at home.

[+pcunningham]

Great, now you want me to become a martial arts expert. Not everyone involved in this sport may be fit or young enough for that nor agile enough to work a baton. Advising someone to first defend themselves using hands-on techniques seems foolish as I remember the quote "don't bring a knife to a gun fight". A handgun self defense course would be a better use of someone's time and money.

 

There's also another quote worth remembering - "When your only tool is a hammer every problem looks like a nail."

 

It is not appropriate, moral, or legal, to solve every personal conflict with a gun. If you are fit and agile enough to carry a gun you are fit and agile enough to carry and deploy pepper spray.

[+rdaines]

Great, now you want me to become a martial arts expert. Not everyone involved in this sport may be fit or young enough for that nor agile enough to work a baton. Advising someone to first defend themselves using hands-on techniques seems foolish as I remember the quote "don't bring a knife to a gun fight". A handgun self defense course would be a better use of someone's time and money.

 

There's also another quote worth remembering - "When your only tool is a hammer every problem looks like a nail."

 

It is not appropriate, moral, or legal, to solve every personal conflict with a gun. If you are fit and agile enough to carry a gun you are fit and agile enough to carry and deploy pepper spray.

 

I'm not going to carry around a bunch of items (i.e. pepper spray, taser, baton, knife, handgun) with the idea that I will size up the situation and pick the appropriate tool. That is just nuts. If you understand the laws that deal with the justifiable use of lethal force you should be fine carrying just a handgun. I would submit that if one did carry a variety of "tools" that a jury might look somewhat askance at that and question the appropriateness and motives on the individual.

[+pcunningham]

I'm not going to carry around a bunch of items (i.e. pepper spray, taser, baton, knife, handgun) with the idea that I will size up the situation and pick the appropriate tool. That is just nuts. If you understand the laws that deal with the justifiable use of lethal force you should be fine carrying just a handgun. I would submit that if one did carry a variety of "tools" that a jury might look somewhat askance at that and question the appropriateness and motives on the individual.

 

Your life, your choice. However, I think that a jury would look more askance at a failure to properly use the force continuum.

[+eagletrek]

I'm not going to carry around a bunch of items (i.e. pepper spray, taser, baton, knife, handgun) with the idea that I will size up the situation and pick the appropriate tool. That is just nuts. If you understand the laws that deal with the justifiable use of lethal force you should be fine carrying just a handgun. I would submit that if one did carry a variety of "tools" that a jury might look somewhat askance at that and question the appropriateness and motives on the individual.

 

Your life, your choice. However, I think that a jury would look more askance at a failure to properly use the force continuum.

 

Okay, so if I got this right, an example of the proper use of the force continuum could be, in order:

 

1. fists/feet

 

2. hickory hiking staff

 

3. pepper spray

 

4. Gerber Mk II

 

5. Springfield XD 45 ACP

 

6. Handgra"nuke"

 

[+Snoogans]

I'm not going to carry around a bunch of items (i.e. pepper spray, taser, baton, knife, handgun) with the idea that I will size up the situation and pick the appropriate tool. That is just nuts. If you understand the laws that deal with the justifiable use of lethal force you should be fine carrying just a handgun. I would submit that if one did carry a variety of "tools" that a jury might look somewhat askance at that and question the appropriateness and motives on the individual.

 

Your life, your choice. However, I think that a jury would look more askance at a failure to properly use the force continuum.

 

Okay, so if I got this right, an example of the proper use of the force continuum could be, in order:

 

1. fists/feet

 

2. hickory hiking staff

 

3. pepper spray

 

4. Gerber Mk II

 

5. Springfield XD 45 ACP

 

6. Handgra"nuke"

 

 

 

Good post. There's way MORE than the force continuum to consider though.

 

 

I hafta teach the force continuum, but you gotta work with the tools you have in the moment. You ALWAYS have more than just your handgun and you better be able to demonstrate that you tried to use them to a Grand Jury.

 

 

I guess my geocaching force continuum would be:

 

 

1. My big fat mouth speaking calmly.

 

2. My big fat mouth speaking forcefully.

 

3. My big fat mouth shouting to draw attention.

 

4. My Beretta Cheetah pointed at center of mass with the safety off while I shout "STOP" to draw attention.

 

5. My Beretta Cheetah pointed at center of mass with the safety off while I speak to a 911 operator on my cell phone. (If there's a chance to do that.)

 

6. Wiping the blood spatter off of my face and hands (but not the gun) while I talk to the 911 operator.

 

 

I teach the concealed handgun license course in Texas. I have no doubt in my mind that if I was forced to shoot someone in defense, I would not be indicted by a Grand Jury. The only way to do that if your assailant does not have a gun is to shoot them within arm's reach. They would most probably have powder burns and there would would also be blood transfer to prove I was in imminent danger of life or health.

 

 

Now, if they had a gun. They would certainly have had it out first, but that doesn't stop me from using my voice to de-escalate the situation.

 

 

In Texas (and many other states that share CHL reciprocity) you CAN shoot someone for stealing tangible movable property, but WHY would you do that? A watch, ring, or wallet can be replaced and you can bet that scumbag's family will come after you in a civil suit for a payday, because guess what? The Grand Jury can't send you to jail, but the average expense for the civil trial in a justified shooting is better than 50K outta pocket. That's what that little clause "Civil penalties not withstanding" means to those of us that carry.

 

 

Far worse than the civil penalties in a justified shooting is the psychological impact of having taken a life.

 

 

If you haven't considered all these things carefully. Leave your gun at home.

Edited June 6, 2007 by Snoogans

[GlfWrVt]

Glock 23 (.40 cal) in this.

 

 

Galco IWB holster.

 

Everywhere I go. All the time.

 

 

Mark.

[+outdoorsaddix]

You lucky lucky Americans, up here in Canada, the hoops you have to jump through the licenses and fees you have to obtain/pay are insane. Its POL license then Restricted License then authorization to transport then authorization to open carry (backwoods only). But im working on it. I really think they should lax up on the laws here but if i had my Auth to Carry i would probably have it in a simple belt holster.

[+pcunningham]

Okay, so if I got this right, an example of the proper use of the force continuum could be, in order:

 

1. fists/feet

 

2. hickory hiking staff

 

3. pepper spray

 

4. Gerber Mk II

 

5. Springfield XD 45 ACP

 

6. Handgra"nuke"

 

 

Sort of, although you left out some at the beginning and separated two means of deadly force. The increasing scale, as I was taught, is:

 

1. Command presence, i.e., your presence in a situation

2. Command voice, i.e., a loud voice

3. Soft hands, i.e., leading the person away, some compliance holds

4. Hard hand, i.e., strikes, punches, some compliance holds

5. Intermediate weapons, i.e., less-than-lethal weapons such as batons, night sticks, saps, stun guns, tasers, and pepper spray

6. Deadly force, i.e., firearms, knives, ice picks, automobiles, choke holds, etc.

 

There are many variations of the above list out there for those who choose to study the matter further. In general, the law states that you must use the least amount of force necessary to stop the attack. As Snoogans eloquently stated above, if you haven't considered these things don't carry a gun until you get trained. With all due respect to the concealed carry instructors out there, a single state-mandated minimum requirement CCW class is not enough. Being a good shot on a square range is not enough. Seek out and take training in the use of force, preferably involving force-on-force scenarios. It's not cheap but it sure beats the alternative.

[+rdaines]

"Force Continuum" that's funny. Mine would be:

 

STOP!

Don't come any closer!

(backing up if possible)

BANG, BANG

911

[+eagletrek]

On second thought, I guess the force continuum could go like this:

 

1. Stop or I'll shot you with you with my .45

 

2. One more step and I'll hose you down with my Greasegun (M3A1 that is)

 

3. Gunner, Coax, Thug (M240 7.62mm coax machinegun)

 

4. From my position, cal .50 (M85 .50 cal machinegun)

 

5. Gunner, BEEHIVE, Thug (M751 APERS round from a 105mm tank main gun)

 

6. Hell, Driver, Move Out, Run the bastard over (Why waste ammo on a thug like that.)

 

 

 

[+Snoogans]

Sort of, although you left out some at the beginning and separated two means of deadly force. The increasing scale, as I was taught, is:

 

1. Command presence, i.e., your presence in a situation

2. Command voice, i.e., a loud voice

3. Soft hands, i.e., leading the person away, some compliance holds

4. Hard hand, i.e., strikes, punches, some compliance holds

5. Intermediate weapons, i.e., less-than-lethal weapons such as batons, night sticks, saps, stun guns, tasers, and pepper spray

6. Deadly force, i.e., firearms, knives, ice picks, automobiles, choke holds, etc.

 

There are many variations of the above list out there for those who choose to study the matter further. In general, the law states that you must use the least amount of force necessary to stop the attack. As Snoogans eloquently stated above, if you haven't considered these things don't carry a gun until you get trained. With all due respect to the concealed carry instructors out there, a single state-mandated minimum requirement CCW class is not enough. Being a good shot on a square range is not enough. Seek out and take training in the use of force, preferably involving force-on-force scenarios. It's not cheap but it sure beats the alternative.

 

 

Some of the best training is experience. I shoot in IDPA events whenever I can. IDPA = International Defensive Pistol Association. Read this article.

 

 

It effectively simulates some real world experience just by the adrenaline rush and loss of manual dexterity that occurrs with that rush. The courses themselves have little to do with the real world, but the rush you get and the difficulty you have reloading, clearing malfunctions, and just thinking clearly in the moment are quite valuable.

 

 

If you're buff, try shooting IPSC. The International Practical Shooting Confederation is NOT for everyone. Only the buff need apply. Not my cup, but an option for those serious enough to graduate from IDPA.

 

 

As training goes it's a whole lot better than PAYING to listen to some ex-cop/ex-military blowhard talk about their firefights in Nam or down in the hood. LEARN by DOING. Don't bother with videos and seminars.

[+Snoogans]

On second thought, I guess the force continuum could go like this:

 

1. Stop or I'll shot you with you with my .45

 

2. One more step and I'll hose you down with my Greasegun (M3A1 that is)

 

3. Gunner, Coax, Thug (M240 7.62mm coax machinegun)

 

4. From my position, cal .50 (M85 .50 cal machinegun)

 

5. Gunner, BEEHIVE, Thug (M751 APERS round from a 105mm tank main gun)

 

6. Hell, Driver, Move Out, Run the bastard over (Why waste ammo on a thug like that.)

 

 

 

 

 

Havin' a flashback?

 

 

I don't know of many cachers outside of Iraq that take a tank to go cache.

[+pcunningham]

[training is experience. I shoot in IDPA events whenever I can. IDPA = International Defensive Pistol Association. Read this article.

 

 

It effectively simulates some real world experience just by the adrenaline rush and loss of manual dexterity that occurrs with that rush. The courses themselves have little to do with the real world, but the rush you get and the difficulty you have reloading, clearing malfunctions, and just thinking clearly in the moment are quite valuable.

 

 

If you're buff, try shooting IPSC. The International Practical Shooting Confederation is NOT for everyone. Only the buff need apply. Not my cup, but an option for those serious enough to graduate from IDPA.

 

 

As training goes it's a whole lot better than PAYING to listen to some ex-cop/ex-military blowhard talk about their firefights in Nam or down in the hood. LEARN by DOING. Don't bother with videos and seminars.

 

I respectfully disagree. IDPA is a great venue to practice what has been learned but it is not training. Training is learning new ideas and concepts and then applying them to see which ones work. Once an individual has determined what works for them then, by all means, they should use IDPA to practice those concepts.

 

There are a number of Bill's IDPA rules that are not useful in a self-defense situation. Can you imagine someone going into a low ready and then doing a 360 scan after he or she finishes a stage? The SO would freak. How about retrieving the mag they accidently dropped with rounds in it so that they don't get a procedural? That kind of training can have bad consequences in real life.

[+Snoogans]

[training is experience. I shoot in IDPA events whenever I can. IDPA = International Defensive Pistol Association. Read this article.

 

 

It effectively simulates some real world experience just by the adrenaline rush and loss of manual dexterity that occurrs with that rush. The courses themselves have little to do with the real world, but the rush you get and the difficulty you have reloading, clearing malfunctions, and just thinking clearly in the moment are quite valuable.

 

 

If you're buff, try shooting IPSC. The International Practical Shooting Confederation is NOT for everyone. Only the buff need apply. Not my cup, but an option for those serious enough to graduate from IDPA.

 

 

As training goes it's a whole lot better than PAYING to listen to some ex-cop/ex-military blowhard talk about their firefights in Nam or down in the hood. LEARN by DOING. Don't bother with videos and seminars.

 

I respectfully disagree. IDPA is a great venue to practice what has been learned but it is not training. Training is learning new ideas and concepts and then applying them to see which ones work. Once an individual has determined what works for them then, by all means, they should use IDPA to practice those concepts.

 

 

I respectfully disagree with you. Have you shot IDPA or IPSC?

 

 

I am by no means an expert in firearm training or instruction. If I thought I was I'd have my own DVDs to sell. I have been in the firearm training and instruction game since about 1995. Good personal firearms training is hard to find and you certainly can't tell what's good by the fees charged by some so-called experts. My advice is to trust your own experience.

 

 

Frankly, if you don't understand the necessary safety, mechanics, and theory behind the use of firearms in threat situations you shouldn't carry. You can't learn that from a DVD. You have to go down to the range and practice it.

 

 

Nothing I ever learned in a classroom, from a DVD, or on a target range prepared me for the EXPERIENCE of shooting IDPA. Aside from my training with the Texas DPS, it is the BEST firearm training I've ever received.

 

 

There are a number of Bill's IDPA rules that are not useful in a self-defense situation. Can you imagine someone going into a low ready and then doing a 360 scan after he or she finishes a stage? The SO would freak. How about retrieving the mag they accidently dropped with rounds in it so that they don't get a procedural? That kind of training can have bad consequences in real life.

 

 

Oh please. I was referring to the EXPERIENCE when I posted this:

 

 

It effectively simulates some real world experience just by the adrenaline rush and loss of manual dexterity that occurrs with that rush. The courses themselves have little to do with the real world, but the rush you get and the difficulty you have reloading, clearing malfunctions, and just thinking clearly in the moment are quite valuable.

 

As training goes it's a whole lot better than PAYING to listen to some ex-cop/ex-military blowhard talk about their firefights in Nam or down in the hood. LEARN by DOING. Don't bother with videos and seminars.

 

 

Experiencing your own body's reaction to shooting under pressure IS valuable TRAINING. No classroom or DVD can prepare you for your own physical reaction. When you understand your body's reaction to shooting under pressure you can turn your use of force into a RESPONSE rather than a knee jerk reaction.

[+eagletrek]

On second thought, I guess the force continuum could go like this:

 

1. Stop or I'll shot you with you with my .45

 

2. One more step and I'll hose you down with my Greasegun (M3A1 that is)

 

3. Gunner, Coax, Thug (M240 7.62mm coax machinegun)

 

4. From my position, cal .50 (M85 .50 cal machinegun)

 

5. Gunner, BEEHIVE, Thug (M751 APERS round from a 105mm tank main gun)

 

6. Hell, Driver, Move Out, Run the bastard over (Why waste ammo on a thug like that.)

 

 

 

 

 

Havin' a flashback?

 

 

I don't know of many cachers outside of Iraq that take a tank to go cache.

 

No flashbacks; only fond memories!!!!

 

I can always dream, can't I????

 

Ya never know what you may see in your rearview mirror someday!!!

 

I can tell you from personal experience that this would be one "Mean Cachin' Machine!!!"

[+pcunningham]

I respectfully disagree with you. Have you shot IDPA or IPSC?

 

I've competed in IDPA since 2001 and am a Master level shooter. I've been an SO since 2003 and have worked several state-level matches. I have trained at Blackwater (i.e., paid for classes, not competed in matches, per your definition) and have taken classes from Ernie Langdon as well as numerous classes from the chief of security of a nuclear power plant. I have been carrying concealed, and occasionally open, for the past twenty-five years. I spent a lot of those twenty-five years woefully unprepared for actually having to use force, the realization of which caused me to get trained.

 

I agree that experience is critical and that IDPA is as close as you will get without spending lots of money on force-on-force training. However, the mere experience of adrenaline does not yield proper technique. Personally, I'd like to see a stage where you start outside of a shoothouse, loaded and holstered. The scenario is that you and your family have just arrived home and have found the front door open and you suspect that an intruder is still inside. At the buzzer, you must act appropriately. Any action except getting you and your family to cover and drawing your tactical cell phione to call 911 gets you DQ'd.

 

I am not in the training business either. You are correct, there are a lot of charlatans out there. A little research will weed them out quickly enough, though. My advice is to get the best training you can from a school with a stellar reputation.

[+eagletrek]

Sort of, although you left out some at the beginning and separated two means of deadly force. The increasing scale, as I was taught, is:

 

1. Command presence, i.e., your presence in a situation

2. Command voice, i.e., a loud voice

3. Soft hands, i.e., leading the person away, some compliance holds

4. Hard hand, i.e., strikes, punches, some compliance holds

5. Intermediate weapons, i.e., less-than-lethal weapons such as batons, night sticks, saps, stun guns, tasers, and pepper spray

6. Deadly force, i.e., firearms, knives, ice picks, automobiles, choke holds, etc.

 

There are many variations of the above list out there for those who choose to study the matter further. In general, the law states that you must use the least amount of force necessary to stop the attack. As Snoogans eloquently stated above, if you haven't considered these things don't carry a gun until you get trained. With all due respect to the concealed carry instructors out there, a single state-mandated minimum requirement CCW class is not enough. Being a good shot on a square range is not enough. Seek out and take training in the use of force, preferably involving force-on-force scenarios. It's not cheap but it sure beats the alternative.

 

 

Some of the best training is experience. I shoot in IDPA events whenever I can. IDPA = International Defensive Pistol Association. Read this article.

 

 

It effectively simulates some real world experience just by the adrenaline rush and loss of manual dexterity that occurrs with that rush. The courses themselves have little to do with the real world, but the rush you get and the difficulty you have reloading, clearing malfunctions, and just thinking clearly in the moment are quite valuable.

 

 

If you're buff, try shooting IPSC. The International Practical Shooting Confederation is NOT for everyone. Only the buff need apply. Not my cup, but an option for those serious enough to graduate from IDPA.

 

 

As training goes it's a whole lot better than PAYING to listen to some ex-cop/ex-military blowhard talk about their firefights in Nam or down in the hood. LEARN by DOING. Don't bother with videos and seminars.

 

Some comments on some of your statements:

 

I couldn't agree with you more on your statement that "some of the best training is experience." However, experience involves incorporating practical knowledge and practical exercise. Without practical knowledge, which can be taught in a "classroom setting" all the practical experience in the world is worthless. In the military we call this the crawl, walk, run method. Once an individual has been schooled in the basics, hands-on practical exercises are the best way to reinforce the training.

 

However, as stated by pcunningham, one needs to be careful about what procedures are being reinforced during the practical exercises as they may result in "negative" training. I've been involved in military live-fire exercises where safety considerations have outweighed combat reality and resulted in "negative" training.

 

You state IDPA "effectively simulates some real world experience just by the adrenaline rush and loss of manual dexterity that occurrs with that rush." Are you positive about that? Have you been in an intense firefight where the guy next to you has just had the side of his face blown off? I don't think there's anything out there that will adequately prepare you for that in the shooting arena.

 

Just some thoughts to ponder.

[+eagletrek]

I respectfully disagree with you. Have you shot IDPA or IPSC?

 

I've competed in IDPA since 2001 and am a Master level shooter. I've been an SO since 2003 and have worked several state-level matches. I have trained at Blackwater (i.e., paid for classes, not competed in matches, per your definition) and have taken classes from Ernie Langdon as well as numerous classes from the chief of security of a nuclear power plant. I have been carrying concealed, and occasionally open, for the past twenty-five years. I spent a lot of those twenty-five years woefully unprepared for actually having to use force, the realization of which caused me to get trained.

 

I agree that experience is critical and that IDPA is as close as you will get without spending lots of money on force-on-force training. However, the mere experience of adrenaline does not yield proper technique. Personally, I'd like to see a stage where you start outside of a shoothouse, loaded and holstered. The scenario is that you and your family have just arrived home and have found the front door open and you suspect that an intruder is still inside. At the buzzer, you must act appropriately. Any action except getting you and your family to cover and drawing your tactical cell phione to call 911 gets you DQ'd.

 

I am not in the training business either. You are correct, there are a lot of charlatans out there. A little research will weed them out quickly enough, though. My advice is to get the best training you can from a school with a stellar reputation.

 

BRAVO!!!! Ya just gotta love pcunningham!!!!! Target, cease fire!!!

[+Snoogans]

I respectfully disagree with you. Have you shot IDPA or IPSC?

 

I've competed in IDPA since 2001 and am a Master level shooter. I've been an SO since 2003 and have worked several state-level matches. I have trained at Blackwater (i.e., paid for classes, not competed in matches, per your definition) and have taken classes from Ernie Langdon as well as numerous classes from the chief of security of a nuclear power plant. I have been carrying concealed, and occasionally open, for the past twenty-five years. I spent a lot of those twenty-five years woefully unprepared for actually having to use force, the realization of which caused me to get trained.

 

I agree that experience is critical and that IDPA is as close as you will get without spending lots of money on force-on-force training. However, the mere experience of adrenaline does not yield proper technique. Personally, I'd like to see a stage where you start outside of a shoothouse, loaded and holstered. The scenario is that you and your family have just arrived home and have found the front door open and you suspect that an intruder is still inside. At the buzzer, you must act appropriately. Any action except getting you and your family to cover and drawing your tactical cell phione to call 911 gets you DQ'd.

I am not in the training business either. You are correct, there are a lot of charlatans out there. A little research will weed them out quickly enough, though. My advice is to get the best training you can from a school with a stellar reputation.

 

 

Amen on that bolded part. Forget DQ. Anyone going Rambo in that situation needs their gun rights taken away and to be forceably scheduled to see a shrink.

 

 

In my classes I stress the civil penalties and the psychological impact as a deterrant. I also expect to testify to that fact if one of my students gets me dragged into court.

[+pcunningham]

In my classes I stress the civil penalties and the psychological impact as a deterrant. I also expect to testify to that fact if one of my students gets me dragged into court.

 

I would be proud to take your class if I'm ever in your part of the country.

[+Texas-Jacksons]

I'd like to know where I can find a chest holster similar to Criminals. I've been looking for one to fit my Colt Mustang and will attach to the shoulder straps of my Kelty Backcountry...

 

Chest holster in the woods:

[+Criminal]

I'd like to know where I can find a chest holster similar to Criminals. I've been looking for one to fit my Colt Mustang and will attach to the shoulder straps of my Kelty Backcountry...

Chest holster in the woods:

 

Go to this site.

[+Chuy!]

Getting back to the original question...

 

I use the aforementioned 5.11 vest. The handgun slips into either frontside of the vest. What I like about the vest are all the pockets for a GPS, PDA, flashlight, batteries, geocoins, handcuffs , and even water bottles in the rear. I cache in the Southwest, sometimes very close to the Border - within a stone's throw away. On my early morning hikes, I have come across undocumented migrants. But, they're not the ones I'm worried about. Mountain lions are a constant threat; two fellow cachers have had close encounters, and mtn lion prints are always being sighted.

 

[+Snoogans]

Sort of, although you left out some at the beginning and separated two means of deadly force. The increasing scale, as I was taught, is:

 

1. Command presence, i.e., your presence in a situation

2. Command voice, i.e., a loud voice

3. Soft hands, i.e., leading the person away, some compliance holds

4. Hard hand, i.e., strikes, punches, some compliance holds

5. Intermediate weapons, i.e., less-than-lethal weapons such as batons, night sticks, saps, stun guns, tasers, and pepper spray

6. Deadly force, i.e., firearms, knives, ice picks, automobiles, choke holds, etc.

 

There are many variations of the above list out there for those who choose to study the matter further. In general, the law states that you must use the least amount of force necessary to stop the attack. As Snoogans eloquently stated above, if you haven't considered these things don't carry a gun until you get trained. With all due respect to the concealed carry instructors out there, a single state-mandated minimum requirement CCW class is not enough. Being a good shot on a square range is not enough. Seek out and take training in the use of force, preferably involving force-on-force scenarios. It's not cheap but it sure beats the alternative.

 

 

Some of the best training is experience. I shoot in IDPA events whenever I can. IDPA = International Defensive Pistol Association. Read this article.

 

 

It effectively simulates some real world experience just by the adrenaline rush and loss of manual dexterity that occurrs with that rush. The courses themselves have little to do with the real world, but the rush you get and the difficulty you have reloading, clearing malfunctions, and just thinking clearly in the moment are quite valuable.

 

 

If you're buff, try shooting IPSC. The International Practical Shooting Confederation is NOT for everyone. Only the buff need apply. Not my cup, but an option for those serious enough to graduate from IDPA.

 

 

As training goes it's a whole lot better than PAYING to listen to some ex-cop/ex-military blowhard talk about their firefights in Nam or down in the hood. LEARN by DOING. Don't bother with videos and seminars.

 

Some comments on some of your statements:

 

I couldn't agree with you more on your statement that "some of the best training is experience." However, experience involves incorporating practical knowledge and practical exercise. Without practical knowledge, which can be taught in a "classroom setting" all the practical experience in the world is worthless. In the military we call this the crawl, walk, run method. Once an individual has been schooled in the basics, hands-on practical exercises are the best way to reinforce the training.

 

However, as stated by pcunningham, one needs to be careful about what procedures are being reinforced during the practical exercises as they may result in "negative" training. I've been involved in military live-fire exercises where safety considerations have outweighed combat reality and resulted in "negative" training.

 

You state IDPA "effectively simulates some real world experience just by the adrenaline rush and loss of manual dexterity that occurrs with that rush." Are you positive about that? Have you been in an intense firefight where the guy next to you has just had the side of his face blown off? I don't think there's anything out there that will adequately prepare you for that in the shooting arena.

 

Just some thoughts to ponder.

 

 

I'm a firm believer in "you fight like you train." There are too many real world examples of negative training to deny that fact. I stated earlier in this thread, that if you don't practice reloading from the configuration that you carry most often, you might as well leave the extra rounds at home and save the weight in your pack. Make that first shot count and don't think you can spray bullets to make up for lack of skill.

 

 

Yes I'm quite positive that IDPA helps in training for those of us fortunate enough to have not had the experience of live combat. It helps you learn your body's reaction to shooting in a pressure situation. I'm quite sure it's not very much like the real thing, but I hope I never find out first hand either.

 

 

I read and watched videos and attended firearms training seminars as a student and at the instructor level for many years before I shot IDPA. I knew about the 75% loss of manual dexterity that happens in sudden stressfire situations. No amount of study prepared me for the intense physical reaction to actually shooting under stress. IDPA proved the theory through practice like no amount of classroom and independant study had before. I would urge anyone that plans to carry regularly to shoot IDPA at least once to experience their own reaction to shooting under pressure.

 

 

Have you been in an intense firefight where the guy next to you has just had the side of his face blown off? I don't think there's anything out there that will adequately prepare you for that in the shooting arena.

 

 

Umm, yea.... Well, no I've never been in a firefight. I don't believe I made any statements that IDPA shooting would prepare one for real combat. I qualified my statement by using the word, "some."

 

 

Let's take a moment for me to clarify my message. This thread is about cachin' armed. To me, if you don't understand the mechanics of your weapon (how to load, fire, and quickly clear malfunctions) and the theory and laws behind what is and isn't a justified use of force, you shouldn't be carrying a firearm in the first place.

 

 

So, taken as read that these criteria are covered for this thread about cachin armed then YES, IDPA is the best possible training/experience you can get (that I know of) to understand how YOU might possibly react in a stressfire situation. That is valuable knowledge that you can't get from a book, a DVD, or in a classroom. Go back to class if you think you need it, but after my first IDPA event, most of what the experts had to say about their own experiences meant very little to my own.

 

 

Most experts give you the basics, some useful tricks and tips, and fill the rest of the space with stories and experiences that are unique to them alone and of very little use to the student. Hey, it sells books and DVDs though. Go get your own experience shooting IDPA and borrow someone else's Massad Ayoob or Jeff Cooper DVD. You'll save a few bucks.

Edited June 7, 2007 by Snoogans