Elitists - You know who you are...

[Clan Riffster]

Okay, on the topic of micro caches, I think that these do count as real caches. Otherwise, there could not be caches hidden in urban areas, right?

Wrong. (in my opinion)

While statistics most certainly indicate that they exist, I have yet to see a single micro cache location that wouldn't support a cleverly hidden small, (and occasionally even a regular), within 50' of ground zero. (No, there's no need to demonstrate that there are locations that would only support a micro. I've already acknowledged the likelihood of their existence.) Also, I have found many small & regular sized caches in urban areas. Being urban doesn't automatically mean you have to hide a micro.

[Mr.Yuck]

I gotta say that I've never had an experience like that at an Event, does that mean that I'm part of the problem, I'm not sure. If you get a chance, try attending an event away from your home area, and see if you get the same situation.

No, these situations are very rare and not typical of a normal cache event. The OP's discussion mentioned some very vocal microphobic cachers in that area who seem to have a narrow vision on what geocaching is all about. That is not the perspective of your normal "cache and let cache" attendee.

 

In your humble opinion, of course. Microphobic? Seems I've seen that somewhere today.

[+ThirstyMick]

Okay, on the topic of micro caches, I think that these do count as real caches. Otherwise, there could not be caches hidden in urban areas, right?

Wrong. (in my opinion)

While statistics most certainly indicate that they exist, I have yet to see a single micro cache location that wouldn't support a cleverly hidden small, (and occasionally even a regular), within 50' of ground zero. (No, there's no need to demonstrate that there are locations that would only support a micro. I've already acknowledged the likelihood of their existence.) Also, I have found many small & regular sized caches in urban areas. Being urban doesn't automatically mean you have to hide a micro.

 

If there are non-micros in New York City, there could be non-micros pretty much anywhere, I'm sure. But I don't think micros are the problem some people have. I think its micros in ugly places with little thought put into the hide... I've seen some REALLY well done micros, and a couple of really poorly done macros

[+TrailGators]

If there are non-micros in New York City, there could be non-micros pretty much anywhere, I'm sure. But I don't think micros are the problem some people have. I think its micros in ugly places with little thought put into the hide... I've seen some REALLY well done micros, and a couple of really poorly done macros

Yes, that is the issue. If it were just micros then we could easily filter those out of our PQs.

[+boda]

Elitists - You know who you are..., Why can't we co-exist?

 

Boy, I'm so glad that this has turned into a discussion on micros. It is always so uplifting and positive.

[+pghlooking]

Just for the record, TRIGO isn't anti-micro. We choose not to discriminate at all. We are completely anti-crap regardless of size. It is not our fault most tend to be micros. Nor is it our fault most numbers cachers tend to say we are anti-micro for their own feelings. It is easier to dismiss us because we are anti-size versus defending crap caches.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled drama.

[+Snoogans]

Elitists - You know who you are..., Why can't we co-exist?

 

Boy, I'm so glad that this has turned into a discussion on micros. It is always so uplifting and positive.

 

 

Ahhhh, human nature. Whenever dialog breaks down you can always haul out the scapegoat and give it a good kick. I called it on page 3. I wish I could do that with lottery numbers.

 

 

I can honestly say that I'm surprised that this thread hasn't devolved into the LPC/Micro cache subjective lameness debate or the subjective numbers debate.

[+rhelt100]

So, I have this vision of how things might have progressed in a situation like this. Let me run a scenario by you and see if it sounds right.

 

Cacher A has, in the past, logged multiple events to match the number of caches he found at said events. At some point Cacher A engages in a debate with Cacher B in the Echo Chamber Forum about the honesty of such an act, and feelings get hurt.

 

Fast forward to an event at an unspecified future date. Cacher A attends the event and finds Cachers B, C, D and E talking and laughing together. Cacher B recognizes Cacher A as one of those people who log mutiple event caches, and the group launches into a discussion of what they think about those people loud enough to be heard and for the benefit of Cacher A. Feelings are hurt again, so naturally there must be more whining discussion in the Echo Chamber Forum.

 

I dunno, it just seems like I've seen/read this before.

 

 

I don't think this was the case. I had never met any of the people at the table before and they would have no way of recognizing me unless they had pulled up my profile and memorized the picture which I highly doubt.

[+rhelt100]

Well, I'm glad this seems to have turned out well. I'm not gonna deny that I was a little worried yesterday afternoon after the first negative responses started coming in. I was irritated, I posted and irritated a bunch of other people. Fast forward a day and 5 pages...I feel much better about the situation, nobody's yelling at me anymore, and I might even try a moonpie tomorrow for lunch. I realize there may be a few people in the background that are very irritated with me and just not voicing it, but I'll try to fix that in person sometime in the near future.

[+pghlooking]

So, I have this vision of how things might have progressed in a situation like this. Let me run a scenario by you and see if it sounds right.

 

Cacher A has, in the past, logged multiple events to match the number of caches he found at said events. At some point Cacher A engages in a debate with Cacher B in the Echo Chamber Forum about the honesty of such an act, and feelings get hurt.

 

Fast forward to an event at an unspecified future date. Cacher A attends the event and finds Cachers B, C, D and E talking and laughing together. Cacher B recognizes Cacher A as one of those people who log mutiple event caches, and the group launches into a discussion of what they think about those people loud enough to be heard and for the benefit of Cacher A. Feelings are hurt again, so naturally there must be more whining discussion in the Echo Chamber Forum.

 

I dunno, it just seems like I've seen/read this before.

 

 

I don't think this was the case. I had never met any of the people at the table before and they would have no way of recognizing me unless they had pulled up my profile and memorized the picture which I highly doubt.

I didn't even know your name or that you attended until today when you called us out and made us look like some kind of rude arrogant elitists. That should be more than enough to prove we weren't dissing you at all.

[+D@nim@l]

I don't think this was the case. I had never met any of the people at the table before and they would have no way of recognizing me unless they had pulled up my profile and memorized the picture which I highly doubt.

 

So you want to hold accountable and berate a bunch of buddies just being buddies and BSing about a bunch of BS and expect them to be sensitive to some nerve they struck on someone they don't even know?????

[+Ambrosia]

Please, please....the thread's sliding downhill again.

[+Quest Master]

I can honestly say that I'm surprised that this thread hasn't devolved into the LPC/Micro cache subjective lameness debate or the subjective numbers debate. For that I credit the OP. Somehow that post seems to have kept things on track. Good job.

 

This thread is really hard to read. I skimmed much of it since it started and I wasn't going to comment except for finding a couple of views I found quite interesting. TAR's and Nona's posts on page 2 made very good points.

 

What I see as an observer of what I've bothered to read so far is an awkward social situation perceived to have gone bad when in fact it probably hadn't. Perception IS reality.

 

I've been to 70+ events in 5 states and being the social animal I have been for my entire life, I find I can fit into just about any group.

 

I may be a member of some perceived clique within my own geocaching family without knowing it..... to someone who would first consider themselves as an outsider instead of as a full member of the group of geocachers gathered.

 

The fact is, I'm not. I always try to see that someone who is standing alone on the edge of the action gets included when I'm hosting an event, but I often don't when I'm not hosting.

 

I enjoy meeting new people and welcoming them into our local geocaching family, but I have little time to hand hold someone without the social skill to asert themselves into the group.

 

We always know when we have a NEW long term member when they are still around when most everyone else has departed. If there is no stated end to one of our events they have been known to go on until 3am or even as late as 6am on occasion. All are welcome, but please, take the first welcome at face value and accept it rather than thinking you need to be encouraged to stick around to feel accepted. If you're a geocacher then you're family. Families often become dysfunctional based upon perceptions.

 

The events I attend have gotten so large that it's really hard to meet and get to know everyone as it used to be in the olden days when a friggin' HUGE event almost got 100 people in attendance. Now, average attendance is 50 to 75 and often over 100 throughout the day for a day long event. Many, many new faces show up every time to the point where it's hard to recognize anyone you haven't seen around several times.

 

It stands to reason that people start to gravitate toward familiar faces and that could be seen a clique to someone who would think of themselves first as an outsider before they thought of themselves as a geocacher just like everyone around them.

 

Check your perception BEFORE you point the finger of blame.

 

I think you're on to something here. I attended the same event and my perception of it was entirely different. I thought it was a tremendous success. We did a good thing and we got good press for geocaching.

 

A project that could have taken three years may be compled Saturday when 100 people from around the area are expected to help find the boundaries of Moraine State Park. Members of the Three Rivers Informal Geocaching Organizatioin will team up with the Butler County Treasure Hunters to help locate iron pins, copperwelds, and rock piles that were initially laid when the park was last surveyed in 1967. Since many of the markers may have deteriorated during that time period, this project is extremely important in preventing future encroachment onto park property, said Obie Derr, park manager. "People move in and decide that they are going to build and they end up doing it on park property," he said. "That can cause legal battles. With a more updated survey of the land, it will save a lot of time and money." Derr said the park has encountered several instances where people have unknowingly built trails and treestands on park property. Previously the park has litigated its boundaries, but had to bring in a surveyor to win the lawsuit, Derr said. Luckily, at that point, markers of the portion of the park in question were still visible. "If we knew for sure where the boundaries were on all the corners, it would be a lot easier," he said. TRIGO, which is comprised of geocachers from Western Pensylvania, will come equipped with Global Positioning System units and will find the markes based on the longitude and latitude points given to them. The Butler County Treasure Hunters will use metal detectors to help uncover the buried markers. Geocaching is a treasure hunt performed using GPS units. According to Tom Baumgardner, a Slippery Rock area TRIGO member, the local geocaching organization also gears toward communtiy service projects. "With all of the community things going on, we're always looking for ways to help," he said. "This was a perfect fit because it is geocaching, but at the same time we were doing something to help the park. Everyone else has agreed it's perfect. A project that could have taken three years, we're going to set out to do in one day." Baumgardner said he expects about 75 TRIGO participants and about 10 to 12 volunteers from the Butler County Treasure Hunters. Communtiy volunteers are also invited to attend. Volunteers will be given the latitude and longitude of several boundary corner points and will go out into the park with their onw GPS units to find them. Registration begins at 9 a.m. at Pavilion 7 near McDanel's Launch and it will continue throughout the day. Festivities will conclude with a 4:30 p.m. potluck dinner at the pavilion. Moraine State Park provides swimming, fishing, boating, bicycling, mountain biking, windsurfing, and hiking. The boundary project is being sponsored by 3MJC; Moraine, McConnells Mill and Jennings Commission. Those looking to register for the event are encouraged to contact the park at 724-368-8811.

I guess this was lost on the OP who seems to be mired in his own agenda. The reality (or, rather, my perception of it) is that there really wasn't a whole lot of time for socializing at this particular event because we were mostly out in the field doing the importantant work of finding boundary corners and reporting on their condition. The OP conveniently failed to mention any of this and chose instead to bash the organizers of the event by charging that they exibited "rude" and "elitist" behavior. He even went so far as to make much ado about one guy out of a hundred attendees who was being a wallflower and blames that on the organizers. My take is that he came to the event with his prejudice and he is still clinging to it. A funny thing about the "numbers elite" is that they don't like to hear that a number of the utmost importance to them is perceived to be a farce by others. And God forbid that they should ever say it out loud because that's "elitist", "negative", and "rude". To the degree that they are committed to the business of keeping score, I have learned that they will hold a grudge forever for this transgression. This talk about "elitism" has a very familiar ring to it. Yawn. It's getting to the point that you can't hide a cache 1/2 mile into the woods without being called elitist. I feel compelled to apologize but I just can't help myself.

 

I invested a considerable amount of time into the planning of this event as did many other members of TRIGO. We're pretty proud of what we accomplished. I would say to the OP that I'm sorry that he didn't have a good time but this event wasn't about him or his issues. Yeah, I know who I am. I'm sorry if he felt that he didn't get his "due" from me or anybody else but I'm not going to dwell on that for more than ten seconds. It just so happens that I didn't participate in this event to make friends and I certainly don't need any who would call me "elitist".

[+hydnsek]

... I don't care who you are...doctor, lawyer, trash collector, Nobel Prize winner, redneck, live in a mansion, live in a mobile home down by the river, have a membership at Augusta National or just a season pass to the local Putt-Putt course... if you like geocaching then you have geek tendencies or you're a full fledged geek! As for me, well I'm a college graduate, own my own bussiness and have a beautiful home in the country..but guess what? I'M A GEEK TOO! That's right and I don't mind admitting it.

So, all you "elitist geocachers" out there (and you know who you are) bring your heads down out of the clouds and shape up. Before you start treating others with distain, look in the mirror and tell yourself, "Oh my God...I like geocaching..I'm a geek!" and embrace it, then enjoy it... 'cause it's true.

 

Well I only scored a 9.46 on the Inner Geek Quiz, so that blows holes in your theory .

1.76%

 

I didn't even know what half of that stuff was.

 

Well I just had to go take it I think I'm winning: 22.09073%

 

I'm sure you can work out your differences..

 

All of the cachers I've met (OFF-line!! ) have been totally friendly and accepted my geekiness! Don't anyone be discouraged from attending events!!!

27.0217% - Total Geek Woo Hoo!!!! King of the Geeks!!!

29.78304% - 'course, I got extra credit for being a Girl Geek.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

I don't think this was the case. I had never met any of the people at the table before and they would have no way of recognizing me unless they had pulled up my profile and memorized the picture which I highly doubt.

 

So you want to hold accountable and berate a bunch of buddies just being buddies and BSing about a bunch of BS and expect them to be sensitive to some nerve they struck on someone they don't even know?????

[+pghlooking]

Please, please....the thread's sliding downhill again.

Sometimes you have to go down that hill if you want the truth. No one said it was pretty, but alot of us are tired of the false claims and accusations in the name of nicey nice.

 

I don't recall you claiming it to be going down hill when the OP was taking pot shots at the members of a group (TRIGO) but when the members respond with fact about the incident it is considered going downhill? Sounds kind of biased to me.

[+Ambrosia]

Please, please....the thread's sliding downhill again.

Sometimes you have to go down that hill if you want the truth. No one said it was pretty, but alot of us are tired of the false claims and accusations in the name of nicey nice.

 

I don't recall you claiming it to be going down hill when the OP was taking pot shots at the members of a group (TRIGO) but when the members respond with fact about the incident it is considered going downhill? Sounds kind of biased to me.

Truth is relative.

[+D@nim@l]

Please, please....the thread's sliding downhill again.

 

Sisyphus? Is that you? This thread was destined to head down hill from post #1. I don't know why you would waste your time on it.

I, unfortunately have to stay committed to it...being the elist that I know that I am.

Edited May 16, 2007 by D@nim@l

[+Cornerstone4]

Please, please....the thread's sliding downhill again.

Sometimes you have to go down that hill if you want the truth. No one said it was pretty, but alot of us are tired of the false claims and accusations in the name of nicey nice.

 

I don't recall you claiming it to be going down hill when the OP was taking pot shots at the members of a group (TRIGO) but when the members respond with fact about the incident it is considered going downhill? Sounds kind of biased to me.

 

For starters...I don't agree with the tone the original post started out with. It was a bit accusatory IMO. However, the OP has admitted to carrying a bit of baggage that may have clouded his original perception.

 

My next point is this...If you honestly believe that cachers are not "cliquish", then I think you are being naive. Out here on the Left Coast, there are several groups that are very cliquish, and many that don't like each other. Large gatherings will have many of those groups gathered amongst themselves and, yes, even talking and taking pot-shots at other individuals or groups.

 

It's human nature isn't it? Everyone has a base need to belong. There will always be folks that are insecure and want to exclude others once they become part of the "in crowd." Then, there are those that will always feel left out unless they get a personal invitation. I'm not saying that either person is right or wrong...it just is what it is.

 

The forums can be a bit cliquish as well. I see more of it in the coin forums...but it exists none-the-less.

 

My last note is to say be nice to Amber! She is my sweetie, and I know where to find you if you are mean to her Jim!

[+JamGuys]

Please, please....the thread's sliding downhill again.

 

Hey, at least I gave it a shot! Now, about those biscuits .......

[+Ambrosia]

Please, please....the thread's sliding downhill again.

Sometimes you have to go down that hill if you want the truth. No one said it was pretty, but alot of us are tired of the false claims and accusations in the name of nicey nice.

 

I don't recall you claiming it to be going down hill when the OP was taking pot shots at the members of a group (TRIGO) but when the members respond with fact about the incident it is considered going downhill? Sounds kind of biased to me.

 

For starters...I don't agree with the tone the original post started out with. It was a bit accusatory IMO. However, the OP has admitted to carrying a bit of baggage that may have clouded his original perception.

 

My next point is this...If you honestly believe that cachers are not "cliquish", then I think you are being naive. Out here on the Left Coast, there are several groups that are very cliquish, and many that don't like each other. Large gatherings will have many of those groups gathered amongst themselves and, yes, even talking and taking pot-shots at other individuals or groups.

 

It's human nature isn't it? Everyone has a base need to belong. There will always be folks that are insecure and want to exclude others once they become part of the "in crowd." Then, there are those that will always feel left out unless they get a personal invitation. I'm not saying that either person is right or wrong...it just is what it is.

 

The forums can be a bit cliquish as well. I see more of it in the coin forums...but it exists none-the-less.

 

My last note is to say be nice to Amber! She is my sweetie, and I know where to find you if you are mean to her Jim!

[+Cornerstone4]

 

 

 

I should clarify something I left out on my earlier post...

 

Although I said that cachers can be cliquish, and that I see it out here...I should say the overwhelming majority of cachers are wonderful people and are very quick to take newbies under their wing.

 

I love events! I must admit, if I am just attending, I sometimes find myself sitting in a group of old friends and don't mingle as much as I should. When I am hosting, I try to meet everyone there, and make them feel as welcome as possible.

 

Also, being a bit of a PITA in general, if I see a group standing off to themselves, and I even think they may be talking about me...I'll go right over and join the conversation. If they get really uncomfortable, then I'll know they were talking about me, and I'll stay longer!

[+edscott]

My hypothesis:

 

When the game started, the early adopters were people who already had GPSrs. These people were likely to already be involved in outdoor activities like hiking, fishing, and 4x4 off-roading. So it made sense that early caches were hidden where you had to hike or were in interesting or scenic locations. Even so, it didn't take long before people began hiding caches in urban locations. An urban cache would be found sooner and generally by more people. And they were easier to maintain. As geocaching popularity grew, new cachers joined that had never gone hiking in the woods before. They bought their first GPSr just for geocaching - or maybe if it had autorouting to use for automobile navigation. Caches that you could drive right up to gained in popularity. Micro caches began to become more popular allowing hides in more and more urban locations. GPS equipped cell phones allowed a whole new group of cachers including teenagers who don't have a car and can only cache where they can get to with public transportation or on their bicycles. Geoacaching has evolved much to the chagrin of many early adopters. Still there are many more hiking caches and caches in interesting and scenic spots then there use to be.

 

Another change is the shear number of caches. In the early days, those who were into numbers had to find most every cache. The find count wasn't all that important except to show how much experience you had finding caches. With more caches of every type, people can get a big find count much easier and often concentrating only on quick and easy to find urban hides. It never made sense to compare two different cachers based on the find count, but it makes less sense today. What is more important is to realize that different people like to cache for different reasons and find different caches to be worth doing. Many, like briansnat, like finding urban micros as much as ammo cans in the woods. What they don't like finding are caches in parking lots or near dumpsters - especially if there is nothing special about that parking lot or dumpster. Put an urban micro in a park, or in an historic or scenic locale and it becomes worth doing.

 

Elitist are those that feel that their reason for geocaching is the only valid one. They put down people who are happy with parking lots and dumpsters especially when they don't have a lot of time. It is difficult to eliminate these caches without also eliminating worthwhile caches. Sometime the frustration in dealing with this is seen as elitism. No method is 100% perfect, but there are many ways to increase your enjoyment when geocaching. Certainly nothing is helped by one side forming a clique and not talking to the other side at events. Exchanging stories about caches you liked or disliked is one way to both understand the other side and perhaps influence them as well.

 

There you have it... no need for any further discussion!!!!!!!! Right on target.

[+pghlooking]

Please, please....the thread's sliding downhill again.

Sometimes you have to go down that hill if you want the truth. No one said it was pretty, but alot of us are tired of the false claims and accusations in the name of nicey nice.

 

I don't recall you claiming it to be going down hill when the OP was taking pot shots at the members of a group (TRIGO) but when the members respond with fact about the incident it is considered going downhill? Sounds kind of biased to me.

 

For starters...I don't agree with the tone the original post started out with. It was a bit accusatory IMO. However, the OP has admitted to carrying a bit of baggage that may have clouded his original perception.

 

My next point is this...If you honestly believe that cachers are not "cliquish", then I think you are being naive. Out here on the Left Coast, there are several groups that are very cliquish, and many that don't like each other. Large gatherings will have many of those groups gathered amongst themselves and, yes, even talking and taking pot-shots at other individuals or groups.

 

It's human nature isn't it? Everyone has a base need to belong. There will always be folks that are insecure and want to exclude others once they become part of the "in crowd." Then, there are those that will always feel left out unless they get a personal invitation. I'm not saying that either person is right or wrong...it just is what it is.

 

The forums can be a bit cliquish as well. I see more of it in the coin forums...but it exists none-the-less.

 

My last note is to say be nice to Amber! She is my sweetie, and I know where to find you if you are mean to her Jim!

I couldn't agree more that there are certain cliques in anything. But in this thread we are talking about a certain situation that I personally was at and was accused of. There was nothing going on other than some tired cachers sitting around waiting to get a bite to eat before heading home after several miles of hiking and work for the event organizers.

[Sadie]

Please, please....the thread's sliding downhill again.

Sometimes you have to go down that hill if you want the truth. No one said it was pretty, but alot of us are tired of the false claims and accusations in the name of nicey nice.

 

I don't recall you claiming it to be going down hill when the OP was taking pot shots at the members of a group (TRIGO) but when the members respond with fact about the incident it is considered going downhill? Sounds kind of biased to me.

I didn't think the OP was talking about TRIGO but rather a handfull of self absorbed people.

 

Now I know who he was talking about.

[+rhelt100]

I think you're on to something here. I attended the same event <snip> Yeah, I know who I am. I'm sorry if he felt that he didn't get his "due" from me or anybody else but I'm not going to dwell on that for more than ten seconds. It just so happens that I didn't participate in this event to make friends and I certainly don't need any who would call me "elitist".

 

 

I didn't think I was "due" anything. But, I've already explained this a few pages back so I'm not going to rehash it. Frankly, after reading several of your posts both here and on the TRIGO forums, I'm thinking you and I probably wouldn't get along very well anyways. Maybe I'll run into you on the trail someday and find out I'm wrong, we'll see.

 

 

One thing I feel compelled to comment on. If you're so offended by being called an "elitist", why would you put a line like the following in your profile?

 

 

I remember when geocachers were more outdoorsy and less nerdy.

 

 

If that's not arrogant and condescending, I obviously don't understand the definition of either word.

 

 

Regardless, I wish you no ill will. Best of luck to you and keep on cachin'!

[+Googling Hrpty Hrrs]

I think you're on to something here. I attended the same event <snip> Yeah, I know who I am. I'm sorry if he felt that he didn't get his "due" from me or anybody else but I'm not going to dwell on that for more than ten seconds. It just so happens that I didn't participate in this event to make friends and I certainly don't need any who would call me "elitist".

 

 

I didn't think I was "due" anything. But, I've already explained this a few pages back so I'm not going to rehash it. Frankly, after reading several of your posts both here and on the TRIGO forums, I'm thinking you and I probably wouldn't get along very well anyways. Maybe I'll run into you on the trail someday and find out I'm wrong, we'll see.

 

 

One thing I feel compelled to comment on. If you're so offended by being called an "elitist", why would you put a line like the following in your profile?

 

 

I remember when geocachers were more outdoorsy and less nerdy.

 

 

If that's not arrogant and condescending, I obviously don't understand the definition of either word.

 

 

Regardless, I wish you no ill will. Best of luck to you and keep on cachin'!

 

I remember recently a thread about whether or not the forums ever make you change your opinion.

 

This one has.

 

I have to say, I wasn't impressed with the OP. Seemed like whining to me. I totally understand the awkward feelings that can happen in a new social situation, but I also feel it's MY responsibility to shake that off and walk up to folks and be a part of things.

 

But it does seem like he's making an attempt now and wants to mend fences. I hope the Cracker Barrel breakfast happens and long term friends are made. ( I happen to prefer IHOP, but to each his own)

 

One last note- don't multi-log the events. It's cheesy.

[+Renegade Knight]

....I remember when geocachers were more outdoorsy and less nerdy.

 

 

If that's not arrogant and condescending, I obviously don't understand the definition of either word.

...

 

A real example.

 

"Only little people pay taxes." -- Leona Helmsley

[+Quest Master]

I think you're on to something here. I attended the same event <snip> Yeah, I know who I am. I'm sorry if he felt that he didn't get his "due" from me or anybody else but I'm not going to dwell on that for more than ten seconds. It just so happens that I didn't participate in this event to make friends and I certainly don't need any who would call me "elitist".

I didn't think I was "due" anything. But, I've already explained this a few pages back so I'm not going to rehash it. Frankly, after reading several of your posts both here and on the TRIGO forums, I'm thinking you and I probably wouldn't get along very well anyways. Maybe I'll run into you on the trail someday and find out I'm wrong, we'll see.

 

Apparently you did expect to be treated ia certain way or you wouldn't have come to this forum to complain that you or others were treated badly. I vaguely remember talking to you for a few minutes. I don't think I was rude. I ditto that we probably wouldn't get along. I think that I share little in common with anyone who enjoys parking lot caching for whatever reason -- no offense intended.

 

One thing I feel compelled to comment on. If you're so offended by being called an "elitist", why would you put a line like the following in your profile?

 

I remember when geocachers were more outdoorsy and less nerdy.

 

If that's not arrogant and condescending, I obviously don't understand the definition of either word.

 

That's because you wrongly assume that I view outdoorsy as "cool" and nerdy as "uncool". I echo the sentiment of somebody who has already pointed out that the vast majority (if not all) geoachers are nerds, myself included. It's my sense that there were relatively more outdoorsy nerds playing the game in a better vanished time. I don't think that outdoorsy nerds are better than other nerds but I do prefer the way they play the game. I stand by what I said in the context of my opinion that geocaching was better before than it is now.

[+rhelt100]

That's because you wrongly assume that I view outdoorsy as "cool" and nerdy as "uncool". I echo the sentiment of somebody who has already pointed out that the vast majority (if not all) geoachers are nerds, myself included. It's my sense that there were relatively more outdoorsy nerds playing the game in a better vanished time. I don't think that outdoorsy nerds are better than other nerds but I do prefer the way they play the game. I stand by what I said in the context of my opinion that geocaching was better before than it is now.

 

 

Ok, cool, I like that explanation. I take back the elitist comment. You're the only person I've ever seen use the phrase "outdoorsy nerds" in a sentence too, gotta respect that.

[+Cornerstone4]

That's because you wrongly assume that I view outdoorsy as "cool" and nerdy as "uncool". I echo the sentiment of somebody who has already pointed out that the vast majority (if not all) geoachers are nerds, myself included. It's my sense that there were relatively more outdoorsy nerds playing the game in a better vanished time. I don't think that outdoorsy nerds are better than other nerds but I do prefer the way they play the game. I stand by what I said in the context of my opinion that geocaching was better before than it is now.

 

 

Ok, cool, I like that explanation. I take back the elitist comment. You're the only person I've ever seen use the phrase "outdoorsy nerds" in a sentence too, gotta respect that.

 

 

I think we would get along fine!

Edited May 16, 2007 by Cornerstone4

[+Cornerstone4]

I couldn't agree more that there are certain cliques in anything. But in this thread we are talking about a certain situation that I personally was at and was accused of. There was nothing going on other than some tired cachers sitting around waiting to get a bite to eat before heading home after several miles of hiking and work for the event organizers.

 

Understood. I didn't mean to sound like I was citing this particular instance. Obviously...I wasn't there.

[O-Mega]

Gee, and I still remember when we Military types were the only ones out in the woods with nothing more that grid coordinates, a map and a compass looking for sticks with numbers on them. Having a GPS sure made it easy to get to a rally point before the bad guys in Panama, Desert Storm, Iraq and other places I can't mention, but alas no McToys at GZ. I have been at this hide and seek game since 83' and I know many who beat me by more than a few years. So to all of you newcomers enjoying this civilian activity I say play nice, all of us oldtimers are watching how 'our' game is evolving.

 

O-Mega

[+Renegade Knight]

Gee, and I still remember when we Military types were the only ones out in the woods with nothing more that grid coordinates, a map and a compass looking for sticks with numbers on them. Having a GPS sure made it easy to get to a rally point before the bad guys in Panama, Desert Storm, Iraq and other places I can't mention, but alas no McToys at GZ. I have been at this hide and seek game since 83' and I know many who beat me by more than a few years. So to all of you newcomers enjoying this civilian activity I say play nice, all of us oldtimers are watching how 'our' game is evolving.

 

O-Mega

 

Cool, I didn't know the military was into letterboxing.

[O-Mega]

Gee, and I still remember when we Military types were the only ones out in the woods with nothing more that grid coordinates, a map and a compass looking for sticks with numbers on them. Having a GPS sure made it easy to get to a rally point before the bad guys in Panama, Desert Storm, Iraq and other places I can't mention, but alas no McToys at GZ. I have been at this hide and seek game since 83' and I know many who beat me by more than a few years. So to all of you newcomers enjoying this civilian activity I say play nice, all of us oldtimers are watching how 'our' game is evolving.

 

O-Mega

 

Cool, I didn't know the military was into letterboxing.

 

Actually yes, one compass course I made had needle stamps that punched a letter on your score card to prove you actually made it to the point.

 

O-Mega

[+Driver Carries Cache]

Pick yourself up by the bootstraps and get on with it!

If you need help, I'll help, but I'm not going to hold your hand! Get a spine!!!!

 

PDA cachers miss some of the point, a good trail/walk through the muck and mire. Walk through neighborhoods WHERE THEY ARE NOT WANTED, but find a cache after I ASKED " Do not go". LAT/LON dowloaded with nothing else. (Googa Mapz to the nearest driveway doesn't make you a good Geocacher)

 

Ok... I'm dying to know what your "anger issue" with paperless cachers is. What exactly are we doing that's causing you such fits?

 

Be nice, follow the rules, don't be a jerk, have fun... Pretty simple....

That's what I said

 

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Ultimately the solution is to be seen as part of the elite, a member of the 'in' group, and you'll be accepted.

 

Here's what you do... let folks know from the start that you are in the know.

 

In this case it all revolves around your friendship with Phil Trigo.

 

If you are buddies with Phil, you're in and nobody will snub you.

 

You don't have to actually meet Phil, just tell folks that you have. Sorta like sneaking into a medical convention to get the free buffet... you don't have to be a doctor to be accepted as one, just show up and act like you have the secrets to life, the universe and everything and they'll assume you to be one of them.

 

I recommend that you don't try to be be discrete, let the world know that you are a Friend Of Phil by wearing a name tag that says FOP.

 

When people see your FOP tag you will be known and accepted.

 

I can't explain it in writing, so at your next event with these folks ask them to show you the secret FOP handshake by which we all know one another.

 

Try it, it works!

 

Ed

Proud to be a FOP

Edited May 16, 2007 by TheAlabamaRambler

[vtmtnman]

Gee, and I still remember when we Military types were the only ones out in the woods with nothing more that grid coordinates, a map and a compass looking for sticks with numbers on them. Having a GPS sure made it easy to get to a rally point before the bad guys in Panama, Desert Storm, Iraq and other places I can't mention, but alas no McToys at GZ. I have been at this hide and seek game since 83' and I know many who beat me by more than a few years. So to all of you newcomers enjoying this civilian activity I say play nice, all of us oldtimers are watching how 'our' game is evolving.

 

O-Mega

 

Nice...this never even dawned on me.The land nav course was ammo cans on engineer stakes!I've been caching since 99!

 

Sure wish I had a GPS then.And would it have hurt the MCT(Marine Combat Training) insturctors to put some swag in the boxes?

Edited May 16, 2007 by vtmtnman

[+pghlooking]

Please, please....the thread's sliding downhill again.

Sometimes you have to go down that hill if you want the truth. No one said it was pretty, but alot of us are tired of the false claims and accusations in the name of nicey nice.

 

I don't recall you claiming it to be going down hill when the OP was taking pot shots at the members of a group (TRIGO) but when the members respond with fact about the incident it is considered going downhill? Sounds kind of biased to me.

I didn't think the OP was talking about TRIGO but rather a handfull of self absorbed people.

 

Now I know who he was talking about.

You might want to go back and reread the first post.

It was hosted by a local caching group that is well known to be anti-micro, anti-anything not a long hike in a beautiful locale, even anti-"nerdy cachers".

This is TRIGO.

At the event, there was a large group of cachers that were all obviously good friends who were members of said organization.

This was the 10 of us sitting at the table enjoying each other's company. Sure he didn't call us by name, probably since he didn't even know most of our's, but the facts are still the same. We were there and knew who he was talking crap on.

 

If you are just firguring out that I was one of the people there, then I am sorry it took you so long to put 2 and 2 together since I posted that it was me way back on page one. Of course there is always the outside chance that you have nothing to add to the story, but rather felt the urge to try and take a cheap shot at someone for the sake of stiring the pot.

Edited May 16, 2007 by pghlooking

[Mr.Yuck]

Gee, and I still remember when we Military types were the only ones out in the woods with nothing more that grid coordinates, a map and a compass looking for sticks with numbers on them. Having a GPS sure made it easy to get to a rally point before the bad guys in Panama, Desert Storm, Iraq and other places I can't mention, but alas no McToys at GZ. I have been at this hide and seek game since 83' and I know many who beat me by more than a few years. So to all of you newcomers enjoying this civilian activity I say play nice, all of us oldtimers are watching how 'our' game is evolving.

 

O-Mega

 

Nice...this never even dawned on me.The land nav course was ammo cans on engineer stakes!I've been caching since 99!

 

 

Woohoo! Caching since the mid-80's here! Now, I can really, really be an intolerant, microphobic old timer.

[+sbell111]

I don't think this was the case. I had never met any of the people at the table before and they would have no way of recognizing me unless they had pulled up my profile and memorized the picture which I highly doubt.

So you want to hold accountable and berate a bunch of buddies just being buddies and BSing about a bunch of BS and expect them to be sensitive to some nerve they struck on someone they don't even know?????

The logic of your post doesn't hold up, in my opinion. As far as I can tell, it excuses anyone from screaming insensitive and inflammatory epithets as long as they don't know anyone that is within earshot.

 

Surely, this is not your position, is it?

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I don't think this was the case. I had never met any of the people at the table before and they would have no way of recognizing me unless they had pulled up my profile and memorized the picture which I highly doubt.

So you want to hold accountable and berate a bunch of buddies just being buddies and BSing about a bunch of BS and expect them to be sensitive to some nerve they struck on someone they don't even know?????

The logic of your post doesn't hold up, in my opinion. As far as I can tell, it excuses anyone from screaming insensitive and inflammatory epithets as long as they don't know anyone that is within earshot.

 

Surely, this is not your position, is it?

Are you insinuating that's not cool?

[+sbell111]

I don't think this was the case. I had never met any of the people at the table before and they would have no way of recognizing me unless they had pulled up my profile and memorized the picture which I highly doubt.

So you want to hold accountable and berate a bunch of buddies just being buddies and BSing about a bunch of BS and expect them to be sensitive to some nerve they struck on someone they don't even know?????

The logic of your post doesn't hold up, in my opinion. As far as I can tell, it excuses anyone from screaming insensitive and inflammatory epithets as long as they don't know anyone that is within earshot.

 

Surely, this is not your position, is it?

Are you insinuating that's not cool?

Yes, I am.

[+rhelt100]

 

Actually yes, one compass course I made had needle stamps that punched a letter on your score card to prove you actually made it to the point.

 

O-Mega

 

 

That kinda sounds like numbers caching to me.

[+LivesWithMonkeys]

I think you're on to something here. I attended the same event <snip> Yeah, I know who I am. I'm sorry if he felt that he didn't get his "due" from me or anybody else but I'm not going to dwell on that for more than ten seconds. It just so happens that I didn't participate in this event to make friends and I certainly don't need any who would call me "elitist".

I didn't think I was "due" anything. But, I've already explained this a few pages back so I'm not going to rehash it. Frankly, after reading several of your posts both here and on the TRIGO forums, I'm thinking you and I probably wouldn't get along very well anyways. Maybe I'll run into you on the trail someday and find out I'm wrong, we'll see.

 

Apparently you did expect to be treated ia certain way or you wouldn't have come to this forum to complain that you or others were treated badly. I vaguely remember talking to you for a few minutes. I don't think I was rude. I ditto that we probably wouldn't get along. I think that I share little in common with anyone who enjoys parking lot caching for whatever reason -- no offense intended.

 

One thing I feel compelled to comment on. If you're so offended by being called an "elitist", why would you put a line like the following in your profile?

 

I remember when geocachers were more outdoorsy and less nerdy.

 

If that's not arrogant and condescending, I obviously don't understand the definition of either word.

 

That's because you wrongly assume that I view outdoorsy as "cool" and nerdy as "uncool". I echo the sentiment of somebody who has already pointed out that the vast majority (if not all) geoachers are nerds, myself included. It's my sense that there were relatively more outdoorsy nerds playing the game in a better vanished time. I don't think that outdoorsy nerds are better than other nerds but I do prefer the way they play the game. I stand by what I said in the context of my opinion that geocaching was better before than it is now.

Personally, I would prefer to be referred to as a "geek" (read technophile) as opposed to "nerd" (read socially inept).

 

As for equating outdoorsy to cool, you couldn't be more off-base. Take it from one of the real in-crowd, cool, elite. We prefer to keep the "outdoorsy" ones not only outdoors but as far away from civilized society as possible. Perhaps if they bathed more often and learned some social skills, we might change our mind.

 

On a serious note

Quest Master, within your profile, i found a more interesting line:

I shall continue to hide geocaches in the old school tradition but it's unlikely that you will find very many of them listed here. Look elsewhere.

 

As a newbie to Geocaching, am I to imply from this statement that there are otherplaces to go and find lists of caches besides geocaching.com? If so, what would be the benefit to listing caches elsewhere?

Edited May 16, 2007 by LivesWithMonkeys

[+rhelt100]

This was the 10 of us sitting at the table enjoying each other's company. Sure he didn't call us by name, probably since he didn't even know most of our's, but the facts are still the same. We were there and knew who he was talking crap on.

 

 

Look, man. I've already said a few times in this thread that it was an error in judgement on my part to even bring up the group factor. You're beating a dead horse here. If I could go back in time and rewrite my original post it would be very different from the way it reads now. If I could go back and have another shot at the event, I think it would go very different as well and I probably would have never felt this post was necessary now that I see the situation from both sides instead of just the way I perceived it. If you want to continue to be angry, knock yourself out, but at this point you're not accomplishing anything except for raising your blood pressure.

 

 

I apologize for the elitist comment. Really, that word didn't describe what I was seeing anyways, so I'm not sure why I picked it.

 

I apologize for even mentioning the group. It was a great event. We helped out the park and I had a grand time bushwhacking all over the outskirts of the park. I think my group was the one to find the illegal ATV trails and we were also the only ones to be detained for 15 mins by the cops. TRIGO did do a good job organizing the event and it was great positive press for geocaching.

 

I apologize for coming to the event with a chip on my shoulder even though I don't think I realized it at the time. Looking back I see that I did.

[+egami]

Ok, I am still vaguely confused as to what TRIGO really is...

 

Their charter message on the Yahoo! group states:

 

TRIGO is a (dis)organization of geocaching enthusiasts in southwestern Pennsylvania. We’re not sure what TRI-GO stands for but we think that it could be an acronym for Three Rivers Informal Geocaching Organization or something like that. The purpose of this group will be to coordinate events and promote geocaching in our area. There are no dues or anything like that because we want to keep this club free and fun....Unlike geo-cliques that pretend to be "open-minded", TRIGO does not exclude anybody or their opinions from our forum. Anyone interested in geocaching in SWPA can join us in our disorganization.

- Phil Trigo, Virtual President.

 

Yet, I read a couple TRIGO members here that seem to be voicing contradicting views from what that statement says to me. Not that I am accusing them of being a clique...because honestly, I don't have a problem with cliques...people can gather how they please, to each their own.

 

But, it would seem to me, from reading this statement, that TRIGO members would be open-minded enough not to care about any kind of "anti-crap" policy which even after reading their comments here I am still confused by their actually definition of "crap", but more confused as to why they'd label caches as "crap" if they are truly just open-minded about including everyone...once you set a standard you inherently exclude someone. Which, again, I have no problem with, but just be up front about it (and maybe they clarify this in their forums or on their website somewhere...all I found was the statement printed above on the Yahoo! groups).

[+LivesWithMonkeys]

because honestly, I don't have a problem with cliques...people can gather how they please, to each their own.

WE actually prefer that dorks create cliques and congregate together. That way, if we ever decide to have open season on dorks, they will be easier to hunt.

[+Klatch]

Ok, I am still vaguely confused as to what TRIGO really is...

 

Their charter message on the Yahoo! group states:

 

TRIGO is a (dis)organization of geocaching enthusiasts in southwestern Pennsylvania. We’re not sure what TRI-GO stands for but we think that it could be an acronym for Three Rivers Informal Geocaching Organization or something like that. The purpose of this group will be to coordinate events and promote geocaching in our area. There are no dues or anything like that because we want to keep this club free and fun....Unlike geo-cliques that pretend to be "open-minded", TRIGO does not exclude anybody or their opinions from our forum. Anyone interested in geocaching in SWPA can join us in our disorganization.

- Phil Trigo, Virtual President.

 

Yet, I read a couple TRIGO members here that seem to be voicing contradicting views from what that statement says to me. Not that I am accusing them of being a clique...because honestly, I don't have a problem with cliques...people can gather how they please, to each their own.

 

But, it would seem to me, from reading this statement, that TRIGO members would be open-minded enough not to care about any kind of "anti-crap" policy which even after reading their comments here I am still confused by their actually definition of "crap", but more confused as to why they'd label caches as "crap" if they are truly just open-minded about including everyone...once you set a standard you inherently exclude someone. Which, again, I have no problem with, but just be up front about it (and maybe they clarify this in their forums or on their website somewhere...all I found was the statement printed above on the Yahoo! groups).

TRIGO will allow anyone to be a member and to express their views on caching. It doesn't say they will encourage all kinds of caching styles, but you will be allowed to come into their forums and express your opinion. Don't expect to get a lot of support, but don't expect to be banned from the group, either. That is not the case with all geocaching organizations.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

TRIGO does not exclude anybody or their opinions from our forum. Anyone interested in geocaching in SWPA can join us in our disorganization.

- Phil Trigo, Virtual President.

True, FOP excludes no one, not even little old me... but that doesn't mean they won't attack and belittle you if you don't do things their way!

 

But, it would seem to me, from reading this statement, that TRIGO members would be open-minded enough not to care about any kind of "anti-crap" policy which even after reading their comments here I am still confused by their actually definition of "crap", but more confused as to why they'd label caches as "crap" if they are truly just open-minded about including everyone...once you set a standard you inherently exclude someone. Which, again, I have no problem with, but just be up front about it (and maybe they clarify this in their forums or on their website somewhere...all I found was the statement printed above on the Yahoo! groups).

See Quest Master and 'Burning Micro'.

 

Truly nice guys, and well meaning, just a bit narrowly focused. They really are trying to keep the caching in their area to a high standard.

 

Their mission statement might better read "We accept anyone, and really like it when they do things our way!".