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its[sic] also much more likely that a weapon will be used against you in a confrontation... really, i[sic] know that 10-15 guys could easily wrestle it out of my hands.

 

emphasis added

 

The quote above led me to believe that you were projecting onto others (you, quoted above) what you (I, quoted above) believe would be your (my, quoted above) experience in such a situation, hence my comment. I apologize if I misunderstood your meaning.

 

As far as out-fighting ten to fifteen muggers, I hardly think that would be necessary. If you don't know why it wouldn't, please feel free to contact me via geomail and I'd be happy to suggest some reading material, courses, and practicums.

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I'm so happy you got the GPSr back and take care of that ankle - that looks like it smarts!

 

and after reading this thread on friday at work i get home to find my apartment was robbed - everything from my computer to a small gameboy, all my photographs, all our change (but left us the pennies), even the bathroom towels to wrap it all in. Ive lived in NY my whole life but I'm not feeling too pleased at the moment.

 

That's terrible!?! I'm so sorry... wow...

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I'm so happy you got the GPSr back and take care of that ankle - that looks like it smarts!

 

and after reading this thread on friday at work i get home to find my apartment was robbed - everything from my computer to a small gameboy, all my photographs, all our change (but left us the pennies), even the bathroom towels to wrap it all in. Ive lived in NY my whole life but I'm not feeling too pleased at the moment.

:ph34r::D:D That's horrible!

 

*sigh*....what is becoming of this world :):):D

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its[sic] also much more likely that a weapon will be used against you in a confrontation... really, i[sic] know that 10-15 guys could easily wrestle it out of my hands.

 

emphasis added

 

The quote above led me to believe that you were projecting onto others (you, quoted above) what you (I, quoted above) believe would be your (my, quoted above) experience in such a situation, hence my comment. I apologize if I misunderstood your meaning.

 

As far as out-fighting ten to fifteen muggers, I hardly think that would be necessary. If you don't know why it wouldn't, please feel free to contact me via geomail and I'd be happy to suggest some reading material, courses, and practicums.

 

fine, i chose the wrong word.

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Just wanted to say NY is a state that issues conceiled weapons permits. Also, once u

get a NY permit quite a few other states reconize that permit which means u can carry

in them states too...

 

http://www.usconcealedcarry.com/public/386.cfm

 

Even though the owner of the cache says its not neccessary, i think what happened to the

guy who got attacked and from what the police have said about the area.. sort of tells a

different story. I don't think people realize how dangerious there own area can be...

(maybe in denial a bit).

 

Anyway, glad u are ok, and glad you got your GPS back. But also keep in mind, you was at

there mercy, they could have took your life.

 

--danny

Edited by danny_1970_gps
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There are two many things here to try to quote them all so I'll try to sum up a bit.

 

1. I don't advocate anyone carrying or attempting to use ANY weapon they are not trained to use, and more importantly trained well enough to use with some skill, which I mentioned in passing in one of my other posts.

 

2. My choice of a walking staff is mostly because I prefer it over wimpy trekking poles and partly because I have had some self-defense training that involves a quarterstaff type weapon. It would do me no good whatsoever on city streets since I wouldn't have it with me. I don't carry it with the intent for use as a weapon; it just serves double duty as one in a pinch.

 

3. Even with training I wouldn't expect to win against fifteen guys, probably not even ten, unless they were really bad fighters or I got really lucky. In an honest assessment of my personal skill vs. average, unarmed thugs I'd probably take out four or five before the press of bodies took me down. My biggest hope would be that once one or two were down that the others would give up and flee before they realized they could wear me down or that I could buy myself enough time for the noise to draw help before they succeeded.

 

4. The Bronsonesque tactics are only tactics, it doesn't make me a better fighter. It worked against a black bear that once, but I wouldn't try it with a grizzly, because he knows better and so do I. A black bear is essentially a coward, a grizzly is the North American "King of the Jungle." With people it's a crap shoot.

 

In the end a weapon, whether it's a stick or a full scale army at your beck and call, is a deterrent. If you ever have to actually use it, it’s likely both sides are going to end up hurt.

 

AK

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Ursamajr: OH NO!! I'm so, so sorry to hear that. Man, must be a full moon. I think it's time to get some renter's insurance. I sure hope you had some. Hang in there.

 

A guy who a good friend of mine plays squash with was recently beaten unconscious with brass-knuckles by two guys, and when he got back from the hospital he discovered the scumbags had robbed his apartment while he was in there. That's just sick.

 

ThirstyMick: as someone who saw The Ramones and The Clash in Manchester in 1980, I'm with you :blink:

 

007BigD: Thanks, I'm looking forward to getting it back and (hopefully) seeing it functioning.

 

I love the idea of talking to the cops about the track log, but I am concerned that will mean I never see the GPSr again. I'm going to feel out how strong their case is and if the log would even help.

Edited by greenbriel
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Just wanted to say NY is a state that issues conceiled weapons permits. Also, once u

get a NY permit quite a few other states reconize that permit which means u can carry

in them states too...

 

http://www.usconcealedcarry.com/public/386.cfm

 

Even though the owner of the cache says its not neccessary, i think what happened to the

guy who got attacked and from what the police have said about the area.. sort of tells a

different story. I don't think people realize how dangerious there own area can be...

(maybe in denial a bit).

 

Anyway, glad u are ok, and glad you got your GPS back. But also keep in mind, you was at

there mercy, they could have took your life.

 

--danny

 

I love my state...no permit required...however it's not Vermont that I wouldn't feel safe in... :rolleyes: Stupid gun laws affecting law abiding citizens... :huh:

 

Oh well,as to not turn this in to politics greenbriel,was there a track log of where the little "hoods" went?

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I got mugged while caching yesterday - here's the log from http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...13-2d199675846d

 

This sucks.

 

---snip--

 

Well I found this nice little cache (only my second find), but as I was leaving, I was attacked by a gang of 10-15 teenagers. They punched me in the back of the head and tried to pull my backpack off me. I (probably foolishly) resisted, because it contained my digital SLR, lenses, the photos I had just shot for a client, and an ipod. As we tussled, I fell, twisted my ankle (probably broken - getting it x-rayed today), and my brand new, beloved Garmin 60csx + 2gig memory card fell on the ground. One of the kids grabbed it, and they took off laughing in the other direction.

 

I got off lucky - I kept my camera and ipod, and the guy they attacked immediately after me has a broken jaw. He was in the precinct at the same time I was.

 

I am so incredibly bummed, I saved for a while to buy that GPS, can't afford another one, and was looking forward to caching in England/Wales, and Maine this summer. This sucks.

 

I spent hours in the police station, and they picked up 5 kids, none of whom I could identify. The police went back to the park after they heard someone tossed the GPS, but no luck. I'm a bit freaked because I have a 'HOME' waypoint in there, but everyone tells me I'm being paranoid. I'm hoping they imagine that they can be tracked by having it (everyone keeps asking me if it can) and toss it.

 

Anyway, up until this sucky event, I really enjoyed finding the cache! I signed the log, took a 1 euro coin, and left a Compaq PCMCIA wireless card. Please leave something nice if you take that.

 

I also took the coke TB, with the intention of taking it to England in 2 weeks, but without a GPS that's going to be hard. I'm not going back to Riverside Park EVER, so unless they recover my Garmin (unlikely at this point) I will probably drop it at the first cache I found, in Prospect Park.

 

Sorry for the long log, take care of yourselves out there!

 

--snip--

 

Anyone else had a bad deal while out?

 

Well that just stinks! What horrible luck!

 

Any chance of replacing your GPS unit yet? Either way, I think that Ill continue to carry my protection items on me. I could see this kind of thing happening everywhere. Heck, I live in what can be considered BFE and I do not doubt for a second that someone would do this.

 

Kat

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Quick update: I spoke to one of the Detectives involved, and unfortunately they didn't get my GPS from one of the bad guys or from any info that could tie it to them. The family of the poor guy with the broken jaw went back to look for his iPod, couldn't find it, but did find my GPS. I'm betting one of them said "they can track that thing" as soon as they left me and immediately ditched it. Sadly that means that the track log isn't going to be real useful, but I'll have a look (if it still works - please cross your fingers) when I get it back.

 

The broken jaw guy had his jaw shattered - it's wired shut and held together with pins. The severity of his injuries has turned this into a Robbery 1 case.

 

MaryofCrestline: BFE - never heard that before - made me laugh :o

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Sorry to hear about your situation but it looks like things are starting to improve a bit.

 

The first 22 years of my life was spent in New York (Queens). I've found the posts about self defense very interesting but I think they overlook one extremely important aspect of "city life."

 

As a city kid, I found that "acute situational awareness" was the best way to stay out of or avoid trouble and/or dangerous situations. I know personally, that if one gets "totally focused" on finding a cache, they can quickly lose focus on the situation in their surrounding area.

 

I was just wondering how a group of punks as large as the one that attacked you got as close to you without you noticing? I would have expected a group that large to have made some noise that whould have alerted you.

 

Please don't get me wrong. I hope you recover quickly and get out on the trail again!!!! But remember to never let your guard down. Acute situational awareness will do a lot to keep you safe. Stay alert, stay alive.

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As a city kid, I found that "acute situational awareness" was the best way to stay out of or avoid trouble and/or dangerous situations. I know personally, that if one gets "totally focused" on finding a cache, they can quickly lose focus on the situation in their surrounding area.

 

I was just wondering how a group of punks as large as the one that attacked you got as close to you without you noticing? I would have expected a group that large to have made some noise that whould have alerted you.

 

Hi eagletrek,

 

I hadn't really thought about that. I credit my 22 incident-free years in NYC to my 'acute situational awareness' (nice phrase). The attack happened a few minutes after I had replaced the cache, so I wasn't focussed on that task, and when I heard them behind me, it wasn't immediately obvious that an attack was imminent. If I started running every time I saw a bunch of kids making a ruckus I'd be in much better shape :o

 

It is certainly possible that my 'spider-sense' was somewhat dulled by the cache-find-afterglow though. I will certainly keep that in mind in future. Thanks for the post.

 

Spoke to my girlfriend who has the GPS in hand - she says it looks totally fine and powers up. Yahoo! What is the best way to visualize the track log? Just view it on the GPSr, or are there desktop solutions? I guess mapsource will do it, right? I'll poke around in there...

 

Thanks again folks.

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As a city kid, I found that "acute situational awareness" was the best way to stay out of or avoid trouble and/or dangerous situations.

 

How absolutely right you are! Good situational awareness can do more to keep you safe than anything else. A great article on one man's work on situational awareness can be found here.

 

edited to add: After glancing through the article I noticed that it makes references to the use of lethal force. It is great information even if you have made the decision against, or are legally barred from, using lethal force. I ask that if you are in that category and choose to read it that you do so with an open mind and take from it that which is useful in your situation without further comment on your choice or the choice of others.

Edited by pcunningham
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As a city kid, I found that "acute situational awareness" was the best way to stay out of or avoid trouble and/or dangerous situations. I know personally, that if one gets "totally focused" on finding a cache, they can quickly lose focus on the situation in their surrounding area.

 

I was just wondering how a group of punks as large as the one that attacked you got as close to you without you noticing? I would have expected a group that large to have made some noise that whould have alerted you.

 

Hi eagletrek,

 

I hadn't really thought about that. I credit my 22 incident-free years in NYC to my 'acute situational awareness' (nice phrase). The attack happened a few minutes after I had replaced the cache, so I wasn't focussed on that task, and when I heard them behind me, it wasn't immediately obvious that an attack was imminent. If I started running every time I saw a bunch of kids making a ruckus I'd be in much better shape :o

 

It is certainly possible that my 'spider-sense' was somewhat dulled by the cache-find-afterglow though. I will certainly keep that in mind in future. Thanks for the post.

 

Spoke to my girlfriend who has the GPS in hand - she says it looks totally fine and powers up. Yahoo! What is the best way to visualize the track log? Just view it on the GPSr, or are there desktop solutions? I guess mapsource will do it, right? I'll poke around in there...

 

Thanks again folks.

 

You can see it of the GPSr screen but that won't tell you much. It will be best to download the track on something like QuakeMap or some other mapping software to give you a better view of where it's been.

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As a city kid, I found that "acute situational awareness" was the best way to stay out of or avoid trouble and/or dangerous situations.

 

How absolutely right you are! Good situational awareness can do more to keep you safe than anything else. A great article on one man's work on situational awareness can be found here.

 

edited to add: After glancing through the article I noticed that it makes references to the use of lethal force. It is great information even if you have made the decision against, or are legally barred from, using lethal force. I ask that if you are in that category and choose to read it that you do so with an open mind and take from it that which is useful in your situation without further comment on your choice or the choice of others.

 

Great article!!!! Couldn't agree more!!! It's something I learned on the streets of New York as a kid, honed during 20 years of military service, and I'm now trying to get my kids to develop these skills as they mature.

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Just got the GPSr back - works perfectly, and just a small dent in one corner of the case, no doubt from when it fell from my beltclip onto the concrete (hardy device, thanks Garmin!). Unfortunately the last track I have ends exactly where the mugging happened. That, combined with the fact that the fresh batteries that were in it are still fully charged, leads me to believe that the unit switched off the second it hit the ground.

 

One weird thing is that the trip computer is showing only three fields, whereas I had it set to show eight. Maybe that's just a weird glitch from the impact.

 

Regarding the article that pcunningham linked, I am someone who is usually a condition yellow, and I certainly went to condition orange when they were approaching me, but again, against a large group, unless you are armed and prepared to start shooting all of them very quickly, I'm not sure the system would have worked in this case. Good info for another time maybe, though for us mostly unarmed New Yorkers we will have to substitute 'running like the wind' for 'employing lethal force'.

 

Getting the GPSr back feels like a nice bit of closure. I'll be glad when I can stop running 'what if I had a can of pepper spray/uzi/katana/black belt...' scenarios...

 

-G

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Good info for another time maybe, though for us mostly unarmed New Yorkers we will have to substitute 'running like the wind' for 'employing lethal force'.

 

Believe me, running like the wind is the number one option in my gameplan, or in any other rational person's, regardless of level of training and/or armament! :o

 

edited to add: I can't lay my hands on my copy of Sun Tzu at the moment, but to paraphrase, "The best way to win a fight is to avoid it in the first place."

 

Also, an outstanding book, and one not involving the use of lethal force, is The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker. The basic premise is that modern society conditions us to ignore our instincts as well as to be polite even to our detriment. A very enlightening read.

Edited by pcunningham
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[

 

Believe me, running like the wind is the number one option in my gameplan, or in any other rational person's, regardless of level of training and/or armament! :o

 

edited to add: I can't lay my hands on my copy of Sun Tzu at the moment, but to paraphrase, "The best way to win a fight is to avoid it in the first place."

 

Also, an outstanding book, and one not involving the use of lethal force, is The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker. The basic premise is that modern society conditions us to ignore our instincts as well as to be polite even to our detriment. A very enlightening read.

 

Totally agree. Steps to avoid trouble:

 

1) be very aware of your surroundings and make a quick exit if things don't feel right.

 

2) make speedy retreat as soon as you are sure you may be in trouble (before actual contact).

 

3) if it is too late to run, give them what they want.

 

4) Finally as a last recourse fight back

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Man, that's awful. I was on another thread recently that discussed what you carry in your Geocaching pack. Maybe I'll have to add bear mace to that list. I usually stick to rural areas, but you never know... I also don't like the idea of my girlfriend being out there alone now, come to think of it. :o I'm in for two.

 

I would never fight a group of guys, but I always heard that if you're outnumbered and you think you have to fight, be aggressive and just go nuts on the nearest one. The rest might think twice about taking it any further. I also think carrying a knife would be a pretty bad idea unless you're proficient with it. If it doesn't scare them off, you're gonna have to stab someone. That or it could be easily turned back on you.

Edited by PinkAndBlue
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Totally agree. Steps to avoid trouble:

 

1) be very aware of your surroundings and make a quick exit if things don't feel right.

 

2) make speedy retreat as soon as you are sure you may be in trouble (before actual contact).

 

3) if it is too late to run, give them what they want.

 

4) Finally as a last recourse fight back

 

Agreed, with one caveat. Step 4 becomes step 3 if the price of what they want is too high. I'll throw them my money clip. I won't let them do violence to me or a loved one. Not all attacks are about property.

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2. My choice of a walking staff is mostly because I prefer it over wimpy trekking poles and partly because I have had some self-defense training that involves a quarterstaff type weapon. It would do me no good whatsoever on city streets since I wouldn't have it with me. I don't carry it with the intent for use as a weapon; it just serves double duty as one in a pinch.

I'm too short and have too little upper body strength to use a quarterstaff as an effective weapon. We have trekking poles and we usually carry them if there is even a remote chance of getting near some slippery footing. Many people carry canes or walking sticks, so they don't look out of place, even in the city. Of course, I'm not talking about the $10 cheapos you can get in any department store; mine are good and sturdy. They collapse to quite a nice small tidy length if I don't actually need them for support--a nice firm set of three metal rods nestled inside each other that would make a very effective emergency weapon if need be, especially since they also have a pointed end. The end wouldn't poke a hole in someone, but it would certainly do a good job of trying. I wouldn't want to get whacked in the head by one, or poked in the face with one. I do believe I could use my trekking pole to my advantage if the need arose. Needs no ammo and I don't have to look like a reject from a Highlander episode to carry one around with me.

Edited by Neos2
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What I enjoy most about reading threads like this one is the ubiquitous straw man arguments that are always fielded by the "don't fight you'll always lose" folks.

 

It goes like this:

"Every person who owns a (gun, knife, pepper spray) is an untrained nut-case who doesn't have sense enough not to (shoot, stab, douse) himself and me if I am an innocent bystander."

 

Therefore no one should be allowed to have (the list).

 

Of course, if everyone who owned (the list) was, in fact, a nut-case, incompetent etc, then this would be a valid argument.

 

Until the arguer can prove this premise, the argument fails. That's the way the straw man crumbles.

 

Ok, so it is NOT a perfect world. SOME people who are nut cases own (the list). Some people will (actions associated with the list). Sometimes even NOT nut-cases will (actions associated with the list). Sometimes all the preparation and awareness in the world won't prevent a tragedy.

 

It is NOT a perfect world.

 

I kinda think if it was, there would be no need for (the list) and they would have never been invented.

 

Since in this hypothetical situation "I" am the chosen "victim" and "I" am ALREADY ON SCENE, I trust ME whether trained, nut-case, or otherwise, whether in possession of (the list) or not, way more than I trust the professionally trained, not nut-case, well armed police officer(s) who are NOT on scene and will only get to the scene in time to TAKE A REPORT.

 

So, in short, a man does what he does in these situations and the dice roll. It is very easy to sit and type what to do, but none of it matters when the punks pop up.

 

As for me, I would NEVER be so presumptuous as to say that anyone who personally chooses his favourite thing or things from (the list) for his personal protection is wrong for doing so.

 

(Now I'm gonna get political again so stop reading here if that bothers you)

 

It would be a shame if I should have to be a law breaker myself in order to defend myself. I don't want to live like that. I choose my place to live accordingly.

 

For those to whom this is not an important consideration, GOOD for you! That's why we have choices in a "free" country.

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What I enjoy most about reading threads like this one is the ubiquitous straw man arguments that are always fielded by the "don't fight you'll always lose" folks.

 

It goes like this:

"Every person who owns a (gun, knife, pepper spray) is an untrained nut-case who doesn't have sense enough not to (shoot, stab, douse) himself and me if I am an innocent bystander."

 

Therefore no one should be allowed to have (the list).

 

Of course, if everyone who owned (the list) was, in fact, a nut-case, incompetent etc, then this would be a valid argument.

 

Until the arguer can prove this premise, the argument fails. That's the way the straw man crumbles.

 

Ok, so it is NOT a perfect world. SOME people who are nut cases own (the list). Some people will (actions associated with the list). Sometimes even NOT nut-cases will (actions associated with the list). Sometimes all the preparation and awareness in the world won't prevent a tragedy.

 

It is NOT a perfect world.

 

I kinda think if it was, there would be no need for (the list) and they would have never been invented.

 

Since in this hypothetical situation "I" am the chosen "victim" and "I" am ALREADY ON SCENE, I trust ME whether trained, nut-case, or otherwise, whether in possession of (the list) or not, way more than I trust the professionally trained, not nut-case, well armed police officer(s) who are NOT on scene and will only get to the scene in time to TAKE A REPORT.

 

So, in short, a man does what he does in these situations and the dice roll. It is very easy to sit and type what to do, but none of it matters when the punks pop up.

 

As for me, I would NEVER be so presumptuous as to say that anyone who personally chooses his favourite thing or things from (the list) for his personal protection is wrong for doing so.

 

(Now I'm gonna get political again so stop reading here if that bothers you)

 

It would be a shame if I should have to be a law breaker myself in order to defend myself. I don't want to live like that. I choose my place to live accordingly.

 

For those to whom this is not an important consideration, GOOD for you! That's why we have choices in a "free" country.

 

stonedvh9.jpg

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I love my state...no permit required...

 

:( Almost makes me want to move...

It's one of it's few saving graces...otherwise my username would be washmtnman or akmtnman. :D

Akmtnman might be an option. No permit required there, either. :P

Don't read me wrong,I love my state,but as far as my hobbies are concerned,there's other good places.Permitless concealed carry is a big perk however.

 

Nuff said.Now back to your regularly scheduled mugging thread.

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A mild mannered small business owner got mugged, fought back, got the snot beat out of him, bought a gun, next time four boys demanded five bucks from him he shot them all?

 

Recall Bernie Goetz, Subway Vigilante?

 

Jailed on 18 charges, ultimately convicted of one, then sued for $50 MILLION by one of the perps?

 

Yikes. :(

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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Does all this "I got mugged, I'm gettin' a gun" talk remind anyone of Bernie Goetz, Subway Vigilante?

 

Mild mannered small business owner, got mugged, fought back, got the snot beat out of him, bought a gun, next time four boys demanded five bucks from him he shot them all?

 

Yikes. :(

There's a lesson in there somewhere. I think it might be "Don't try to rip people off because they might be closer to the edge than you".

Edited by sbell111
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Does all this "I got mugged, I'm gettin' a gun" talk remind anyone of Bernie Goetz, Subway Vigilante?

 

Mild mannered small business owner, got mugged, fought back, got the snot beat out of him, bought a gun, next time four boys demanded five bucks from him he shot them all?

 

Yikes. :(

 

And went to jail and was sued for 43 million bucks. Because he defended himself.

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There's a lesson in there somewhere. I think it might be "Don't try to rip people off because they might be closer to the edge than you".

Yup, excellent lesson for the criminals around us.

 

A lesson for us, however, might be "Give them whatever it takes to de-escalate the situation"

 

Then again, all 4 kids had violent pasts, carried screwdrivers for weapons, and ran across Goetz (or however you spell that) on the way to commit a robbery, so who knows... he didn't know those things at the time, but he may have saved his own life, we'll never know. It is possible but not very likely that they would have gone on to harm or kill him.

 

In risk avoidance all you can do is prepare for what's likely to happen.

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After skimming through this thread, I am glad things have turned right, you weren't seriously injured and your GPS is back in hand. Be thankful you are safe.

 

As someone who has cached in NYC and now caches in South Africa, being aware of your surroundings is the best option anyone can have. I have gone after caches here where I just don't feel right about the area, sometimes I push in and grab the cache quickly only to find some homeless dudes belongings nearby, other times I leave the cache for another time when I am in a group.

 

There is nothing more valuable than my safety and the safety of my family, which is partly why I carry very little with me when I cache. If I get mugged, the gps goes but not much more. Here crime is a real threat, both on the street and at home. (read: SA crime stats and stories)

 

But being a hero is not the hero thing to do. Stay aware, leave the cache if it doesn't 'feel' right and be smart when approached by someone. I sadly have been mugged 3 times in 2 years of living here. Never caching though, not yet atleast. :(

 

Be safe.

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Time for the sun to set on the Culture of Sheep

 

By Tim Inwood

 

My first memory of encountering the “anti-self defense culture”, which I call the “culture of sheep”, was a cold morning in January 1975. I was in the sixth grade and was riding the school bus. Suddenly, another student sitting in the seat ahead of me turned and began striking me. This was completely unprovoked. Naturally I struck back in defense. The bus driver separated us and drove on to Holmes school. Before I knew it, I was before Principal Will Allen. Also standing there was Mark, the kid who started the fight.

 

Allen asked what happened, and Mark told a tale that was strewn with as many lies as Bill Clinton used in his “I did not have sex with that woman” lecture. Will Allen then turned to me for my version of what happened. I told him I was sitting there talking with my friend Tom Gray and suddenly I was being pummeled by Mark. I did nothing to provoke him and had said nothing to him.

 

Now, Mark was a behavior problem who did things like this frequently. I had a clean slate and had not gotten a swat since Kindergarten. So Will Allen believed me. However, since I had defended myself, I was in trouble too. We were both offered the choice of swats or having to stay indoors during recess for two weeks. I was flustered.

 

“Why am I being punished?” I asked.

 

“Because you fought back,” I was told.

 

I was stunned and disgusted in the same instant. Though I did not realize it in these terms, it was my first memory that I and the other students were being conditioned to be victims - to accept the idiotic culture of sheep. If attacked, submit and hope for the best. This concept is unnatural to humans; it certainly goes against the grain of my instincts.

 

Just how this cower, cringe and hide in the face of danger concept ever caught on is beyond me. I rejected that early conditioning the liberal public schools tried to thrust upon me. Ever since that injustice the anti-self defense culture, the culture of sheep, has left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Their philosophy is not only unjust, it is down right stupid and deadly.

 

Click 'Read More' for the entire commentary.

 

 

Since the tragedy of Virginia Tech in April, the “sheep” have been demanding new gun control laws. While they have been bleating for more of the failed policies of the past, many of us at BuckeyeFirearms.org have written about how the solution is not more gun control, but more guns in the right hands could have stopped this. We have written about the fallacy of blocking the ability of the law abiding to defend themselves. After all, in our view Virginia Tech’s tragedy was magnified by the ridiculous stance that Virginia Tech and other schools in Virginia have taken by blocking their students and faculty from carrying arms for defense. Under Virginia law they can, but the schools have rules threatening to fire faculty and expel students caught carrying arms. So they were rendered defenseless.

 

The anti-gun left has argued that if the students had been armed that it could have been worse. They say had a student pulled their own gun that they might have missed Cho and hit someone else. A rather silly point to make when we know everyone in the room gets killed in the end…

 

They then tell us that even if armed it was unlikely anyone would have acted. After all, who would be crazy enough to draw a weapon against someone who already had the drop on you? No one would do that, they tell us… History shows that the anti’s blow that argument too. Yesterday I happened to be listening to the Neal Boortz radio show and heard about something I had not caught at the time of the incident, probably because the news media did its best to ignore the following very interesting story about a student fighting back.

 

On March 21, 2005, Jeff Weise went to the Red Lake Senior High School in Northern Minnesota. He was decked out in Columbine copycat garb: black trench coat and combat boots. He had spiked his hair and was armed with a .40 caliber Glock pistol, a .22 pistol and a 12 gauge shotgun. He bypassed passive security measures, which included a metal detector, video cameras, and even the vaunted "no-guns" signs, all of which were installed with promises of "protection".

 

Earlier in the day this twisted punk had killed his police officer grandfather and his grandfather’s girlfriend. He then stole his grandfather’s guns and patrol car, using the car to drive to the school. Weise’s rampage lasted a little over ten minutes. He shot and killed eight people. He wounded seven others. That is what the press told us at the time and little else. Strangely, this incident did not get the wall to wall coverage that Columbine got in the press. This was after all the next-largest slaughter in an American school at the time.

 

Now I think we may know why the media did not make a big thing of what happened. You see, someone in the classroom fought back. We are not supposed to do that, and to talk about self-defense would be poor form. They probably did not want to encourage anyone to think we should fight back in such situations, after all someone else might get hurt… What other reason can there be for ignoring the story of fifteen year-old Jeff May?

 

You see, Jeff May was working on an algebra problem when Jeff Weise came into the school shooting. The first victim was an unarmed security guard manning a metal detector. Derrick Brun was shot dead on the spot. It might have ended there, had he been armed. We will never know. But making sure he was unarmed was a recipe for disaster.

 

When Weise blew out the window next to the door of the classroom May was in, he leaned into the room and shot 62 year-old English teacher Mrs. Rodgers, who had cried out to God to help them. He then asked if anyone else in the room believed in God and began shooting the students. Jeff May, armed only with a #2 pencil, charged Weise and stabbed him in the side with his pencil. Sadly the pencil was deflected as Weise was wearing his dead grandfather’s body armor. The two boys fought on the floor. As they struggled Weise managed to turn and fire his pistol into May’s face. The bullet entered his right cheek fracturing May’s jaw and lodging in his neck, near the spine.

 

The surviving students estimated that May had tied up Weise long enough in that struggle to have saved the other dozen students in the room, as police officers were now arriving at the school. Four police officers now engaged Weise in a gun battle striking him several times. Weise then shot himself in the head, ending the incident.

 

Jeff May spent months in the hospital recovering from his wounds. The young man is a hero. He saved lives and only now is his story getting much play. I thank Readers Digest and Neal Boortz for turning the spotlight on this story and getting the truth out. Pity he only had a pencil to defend his class.

 

Sadly, this story and how the press did not give it full coverage, is not unique.

 

In 1997 in Pearl, Mississippi, a 10th grader named Luke Woodham killed his mother and then went to school with the family 30-30 deer rifle. He shot nine fellow students. Woodham was stopped by Vice Principal Joel Myrick. Myrick had armed himself with his Colt .45 pistol. However Myrick had to run to his car off campus to get his pistol. Why? Because Myrick was complying with misguided laws concerning guns near schools, so he had to run a good distance to his car and back to the school. That time spent running to get his gun cost lives. He stopped Woodham long before the police arrived. Columbine people remember. Bring this up and they will give you a puzzled look.

 

Telling this story will get the same reaction: On January 16, 2002 Peter Odighizuwa, a failing student at the Appalachian School of Law, decided to go on a killing spree. After talking with a Professor Rubin, he then went to the offices of Dean Antony Sutin and Professor Thomas Blackwell and shot them at point blank range with a .380 pistol. He then shot and killed Angela Dales and wounded three other people. Two students elsewhere on campus heard the shots and responded with their own personal firearms. Tracy Bridges and Mikael Gross, armed with their own handguns, subdued Odighizuwa until the police arrived. They stopped his rampage with privately owned pistols.

 

These stories, and others like them, received scant press attention. Self defense and the positive use of firearms is usually ignored by the national news media. Just listening to the press since April 16th, it is not difficult to see the obvious bias against private gun ownership as well as their delight in vilifying the NRA. I have news for them, the NRA is not just a handful of lobbyists. It is made up of five million of their fellow citizens. The NRA membership dwarfs all the anti-gun groups put together. Researchers estimate over two million defensive gun uses a year. Again, ignored. So with their deep ingrained bias they often ignore positive stories about private self-defense that do not fit their mental template of how things should be, truly a malpractice of their duty as the “objective” fifth estate.

 

It is time to get over irrational fears of inanimate objects and allow those who are willing to be the first line of defense not only for themselves, but also be there to help protect others from the sociopaths among us. Ohio has had Concealed Carry since 2004 and it has been a model of success. It is time to do away with all the "no guns" zones and allow us to be safe everywhere. It is time to end the rule of the “culture of sheep.” After all we were born men and women - not wool bearing animals.

 

Tim Inwood is the current Legislative Liaison and Past President of the Clinton County Farmers and Sportsmen Association, an Endowment Member of the NRA, Life Member of OGCA, and a volunteer for Buckeye Firearms Association.

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I love my state...no permit required...however it's not Vermont that I wouldn't feel safe in... :( Stupid gun laws affecting law abiding citizens... :P

 

WA issues licenses for concealed carry, but none is required for open carry. So far, Ive been "asked to leave" only once while open carrying, that was at Pacific Place Mall in Seattle. They're getting flooded with emails from other firearms owners promising not to shop there, so that policy may change soon. Last night I skated ten miles along the waterfront in Tacoma OC, no problems.

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A coworker from my companies Indiana facility was here, and talking about how different the gun laws are from New Jersey. He was in support of the looser gun laws in his state. I appreciate the laws here, but can see his point. My point is that there are perfectly good reasons for the differences. New Jersey (and New York City, by the way have you ever been there??) is incredibly dense. Density affects how people interact with each other. In rural america where there are fewer cops, and longer response times, it might be appropriate to have a gun to deter robberies. When we're living in sardine cans piled on top of each other; not so much. It just adds another scary element. If you could walk into any store on the street and buy a gun, anybody could. Thats scary.

 

Nobody addressed the story I told earlier. When I was four i found a gun hidden by my father in the one bedroom new york city apartment that i grew up in. What if I shot myself? I was four. In a one bedroom apartment its a little harder to hide something from your kids.

 

A story the coworker told me scared me too. Seems in its perfectly legal to kill someone if they are on your property. I can't find the story, so it must have been awhile ago, but two kids (note: kids) were on some guys property. He thought they were acting suspicious so he shot them. One of them died. They were on his property, so no consequences. Now think back to various threads talking about geocachers crossing onto private property. Lost the trail and ended up in someones backyard......

 

But anyway, we are all different, and we all choose to live where we do for various reasons. We vote locally, and if things don't go our way we can move. We don't vote on the other side of the country because not only do we not live there; it doesn't affect us.

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I love my state...no permit required...however it's not Vermont that I wouldn't feel safe in... :( Stupid gun laws affecting law abiding citizens... :P

 

WA issues licenses for concealed carry, but none is required for open carry. So far, Ive been "asked to leave" only once while open carrying, that was at Pacific Place Mall in Seattle. They're getting flooded with emails from other firearms owners promising not to shop there, so that policy may change soon. Last night I skated ten miles along the waterfront in Tacoma OC, no problems.

Same with most states.I've opened carried alot of times(And not some little 38,I'm talking .45LC hog leg),not one word to me.

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Interesting stories, thank you!

 

For them to become relevant however we would have to know the sum total of all gun defense stories and statistically how these rank against the percentage of negative results from the presence of guns.

 

You won't find a stronger believer in the right to bear arms for hunting, sporting and personal protection.

 

I have several guns - pistols, rifles, shotguns, and have a Concealed Carry permit. There are pistols in my home and in every one of my cars.

 

That does not mean, however, that I think everyone, even limited to those with a clean criminal record, should have firearms.

 

I do not think guns have any place in schools. Look at how many teachers and principles are disciplined every year for abusing students - you want to give them guns?

 

Security Guards are often untrained civilians hired off the street with a cursory (if any) background check, fr minimum wage, and in a good agency given 1 or 2 days of training - you want to give them guns?

 

Homeowners shoot themselves and their family far more often than they shoot bad guys - and they should all have guns?

 

No, having been mugged or fearing that you might be is no reason to carry a firearm!

 

Avoiding the escalation of violence by giving them what they want will far more often than not resolve the situation.

 

In the OP's situation he was attacked from behind by a gang - would having a pistol in his pocket made the situation better or worse?

 

Since he mentions no military, hunting or police training and experience it is my guess that if he had pulled a gun he'd be having it removed surgically from his backside, or worse.

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... Nobody addressed the story I told earlier. When I was four i found a gun hidden by my father in the one bedroom new york city apartment that i grew up in. What if I shot myself? I was four. In a one bedroom apartment its a little harder to hide something from your kids. ...
I'll address it. You father was not a responsible gun owner. He should have secured his weapon.
... In the OP's situation he was attacked from behind by a gang - would having a pistol in his pocket made the situation better or worse?
In the OP's situation, he likely would never have turned his back to the danger if he were armed.
Since he mentions no military, hunting or police training and experience it is my guess that if he had pulled a gun he'd be having it removed surgically from his backside, or worse.
It is my guess that he would have taken whatever training were available (Many jurisdictions require specific training before issuing a CCW). I would further assume that he would be a responsible gun owner and worked to increase his proficiency. Edited by sbell111
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Homeowners shoot themselves and their family far more often than they shoot bad guys - and they should all have guns?

I knew a guy who told me his cousin’s friend’s sister was married to a guy who knew a woman whose dad was related to a guy and his dog was previously owned by a guy who accidentally shot his kid.

 

It’s funny how fabricated statistics, repeated often enough, will be not only believed, but repeated as though they were fact.

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And yes, I have been mugged while carrying a pistol!

 

Well, pick-pocketed actually.

 

I hosted a convention for my business many years ago at the Pontalba Hotel in New Orleans. I had clients from all over the country down there, many for the first time.

 

Anytime I am in the French Quarter I carry a pistol; it can be a hairy place, especially if you leave the tourist streets.

 

I had two couples from Kansas and Wisconsin who wanted to see the famed French Quarter.

 

Early during our tour of Bourbon Street the couples both expressed 'we're not in Kansas anymore!' type feelings and I had told them no worries, it's a much safer place than it looks, and besides I am carrying a gun.

 

Thus reassured we continued our tour and by midnight we're having the obligatory Cafe au Lait and Beignets at Cafe Du Monde.

 

The streets have fairly well cleared out by this time of the morning so we're walking five abreast, with me in the middle.

 

Walking back to the hotel there's this huge black woman dancing to a tune only she can hear, out in the middle of the street. That's actually normal for the Quarter, so I thought nothing of it, and as we walked past her our group just split far enough to go around her.

 

As I walked past this gal grabs my crotch and asks "Honey, want to get a room?"

 

I just brushed her arm away and kept walking, thinking it pretty funny.

 

One of the guys with me said "She took your money!"

 

I reached in my pocket and sure enough, it was gone!

 

While she had my full attention with her one hand she had slipped her other hand in my pocket and got my cash! I never even felt that part!

 

I turned around and there she goes, waddling full-speed into this all-black bar.

 

Now, I am not particularly racist, but much of the Quarter is divided along those lines, and I wasn't about to chase this woman into that bar! So I laughed and just kept walking. I thought it was pretty funny, actually, since I was spent out and she got maybe $18.

 

But one of the guys got all over me for this - how can I, and armed citizen, victim of street crime, walk away laughing and not do anything about this appalling situation? He was truly mad that I did not yank out my pistol and go after this broad!

 

I was thankful that it was I who had the gun and not him... I really believe that he would have escalated a simple pick-pocketing into gunplay.

 

Does that make me a sheep? BAAAAH. So be it!

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... Nobody addressed the story I told earlier. When I was four i found a gun hidden by my father in the one bedroom new york city apartment that i grew up in. What if I shot myself? I was four. In a one bedroom apartment its a little harder to hide something from your kids. ...
I'll address it. You father was not a responsible gun owner. He should have secured his weapon.

 

yeah that was actually my precise point. The laws exist to prevent any untrained idiot from having access to a gun....

 

yes, i did just call my father an idiot. although, to be honest, i cant imagine a safe place to keep it in that apartment. no, i did not call any of you idiots. Alabama Rambler: Excellent Points.

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If the OP so desires to get trained and carry a firearm, or not, it really doesn't matter what our personal views are on gun laws or carrying one. He has the right. People have the right to suggest it. People have the right to argue against it, but at some point it becomes pointless bantering back and forth...probably at this juncture the OP has enough info. either way.

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