GOT MUGGED!

[+Brik]

But one of the guys got all over me for this - how can I, and armed citizen, victim of street crime, walk away laughing and not do anything about this appalling situation? He was truly mad that I did not yank out my pistol and go after this broad!

 

Your mistake was to let those that you were with know you wee carrying! YOU presumably have been trained, YOU know the laws, YOU know how you should respond in various situations. Your companions do not. You do not want to be outed at an inopportune moment by a zealous companion.

 

$18 is not worth killing someone over BUT it would be worth a punch in the mouth in my opinion. There are cops all over the place on Bourbon street. The whore who robbed you likely knew where they were and positioned herself at the mid point between two cops to maximize her escape time. Also, her "friends" in the bar were there to back her up and intimidate you. I likely would have dragged her to the street by her collar, I'm sure she would have whooped it up as only her type could. The cops would have been there lickety split!

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Homeowners shoot themselves and their family far more often than they shoot bad guys - and they should all have guns?

I knew a guy who told me his cousin’s friend’s sister was married to a guy who knew a woman whose dad was related to a guy and his dog was previously owned by a guy who accidentally shot his kid.

 

It’s funny how fabricated statistics, repeated often enough, will be not only believed, but repeated as though they were fact.

Hokay...

 

Fact. I was fourteen when my family and the family of my best friend Ronnie went target shooting. I had a set of matched US&S .45s that my uncle had sent me from Vietnam, the rest of us had a variety of firearms.

 

E.G. was my dad's best friend from grade school, had served together in the Navy, and he and his wife Virginia had remained close to my parents all along, thus Ronnie and I were best friends and had hunted with our parents since we were old enough to carry a .410 shotgun at about age 8 or 9.

 

We drive out a country road, set up targets and everyone had their target practice. At the end E.G. had been firing my .45s. When we got ready to leave everyone (supposedly) unloaded their weapons and put them in the bucket behind the back seat of E.G.'s Corvair, which we were all riding in. I didn't think to check the pistols, E.G. had served in the Navy with Dad, had Navy training on .45s, had been a lifetime hunter. Dad didn't check them, he assumed as I did, from long years of experience with E.G., that of course he had unloaded the pistols.

 

As we're driving out we get about a mile down the bumpy dirt road when one of my pistols goes off. The bullet passed through the back seat between my Mother and I and entered the back of Ronnies head in the front seat.

 

No need to go on with that story, but it fits here - having a gun introduces a real level of danger, no matter how experienced or trained.

 

FACT - My friend Carl comes by the house. His carpenter tools have all been stolen from his truck, as has his pistol, by an employee with a drug habit. He wants to borrow my pistol. He plans to go to the guy's house and ask for his stuff back (the police could do nothing, there was no proof this kid had taken the stuff, they couldn't just search his house).

 

Carl says he really doesn't expect trouble, it's just a dumb kid with a drug problem ripping off an easy target, but since the kid had stolen his gun he just felt like he should not go talk to the kid unarmed. So I lent him my .38.

 

Carl goes to the kid's house, honks his horn and gets out of the truck. The kid walks out on the porch. Carl pulls my gun and walks up to the kid, presses the barrel under the kid's chin and demands his stuff.

 

I don't know if the kid had seen too many movies, thought he was Rambo or what, but he swipes at the pistol to knock it away. End of kid.

 

Carl is eventually exonerated, of all things, on a self-defense charge! Hey this is Alabama, what can I say.

 

FACT - my neighbor, a single Dad, traveled a lot and left his 12 or 13 year-old son Sam in the care of his 20-something older sister. One night Sam has several friends over, playing Nintendo in his room. Somehow the topic turned to hunting, and Sam goes to his Dad's closet and pulls out Dad's 12 gauge shotgun, points it at his friend Corey and pulls the trigger.

 

My son, who was there, comes running in the house yelling "Dad, come quick, Sam shot Corey!"

 

Fortunately it was a light load of birdshot that hit Corey mostly in the chest, aside from lots of holes in his skin and some big-time bruising Corey wasn't hurt permanently.

 

FACT - my Secretary comes to my office in hysterics, her son has been shot at home.

 

I take her home and the kid, maybe 8, has found her .22 pistol in her night stand, managed to unload it, took the bullets outside where he commences hitting them with a rock. .22s being rim-fire of course one goes off and shoots him in the leg. Again, minor trauma, no lasting damage, lucky.

 

So, I have seen these things happen.

 

I have no statistics on how common such things are.

 

I personally have never had any sort of gun accident, nor have I ever pulled it in self-defense, yet twice people have died with my gun.

 

I do not personally know anyone that has ever used a handgun in self defense.

 

How does my experience match national statistics? I have no clue... but I stand by my position that having a gun is more dangerous to you and your family than not until I see statistics showing otherwise!

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

But one of the guys got all over me for this - how can I, and armed citizen, victim of street crime, walk away laughing and not do anything about this appalling situation? He was truly mad that I did not yank out my pistol and go after this broad!

 

Your mistake was to let those that you were with know you wee carrying! YOU presumably have been trained, YOU know the laws, YOU know how you should respond in various situations. Your companions do not. You do not want to be outed at an inopportune moment by a zealous companion.

 

$18 is not worth killing someone over BUT it would be worth a punch in the mouth in my opinion. There are cops all over the place on Bourbon street. The whore who robbed you likely knew where they were and positioned herself at the mid point between two cops to maximize her escape time. Also, her "friends" in the bar were there to back her up and intimidate you. I likely would have dragged her to the street by her collar, I'm sure she would have whooped it up as only her type could. The cops would have been there lickety split!

Sorry, but I object to your post on two counts! Your characterization of her as whore when she is really only known to be a pick-pocket, and your stated bravado that you would have taken the actions you describe.

 

In the situation described both your characterization and your actions would have gotten you a serious whuppin!

[+sbell111]

But one of the guys got all over me for this - how can I, and armed citizen, victim of street crime, walk away laughing and not do anything about this appalling situation? He was truly mad that I did not yank out my pistol and go after this broad!

 

Your mistake was to let those that you were with know you wee carrying! YOU presumably have been trained, YOU know the laws, YOU know how you should respond in various situations. Your companions do not. You do not want to be outed at an inopportune moment by a zealous companion.

 

$18 is not worth killing someone over BUT it would be worth a punch in the mouth in my opinion. There are cops all over the place on Bourbon street. The whore who robbed you likely knew where they were and positioned herself at the mid point between two cops to maximize her escape time. Also, her "friends" in the bar were there to back her up and intimidate you. I likely would have dragged her to the street by her collar, I'm sure she would have whooped it up as only her type could. The cops would have been there lickety split!

Sorry, but I object to your post on two counts! Your characterization of her as whore when she is really only known to be a pick-pocket, and your stated bravado that you would have taken the actions you describe.

 

In the situation described both your characterization and your actions would have gotten you a serious whuppin!

She grabbed your crotch, asked you if you wanted to get a room, and left with your $18. Sounds like she was a hooker, to me. Edited May 16, 2007 by sbell111

[+rdaines]

Fortunately in the USA we have the right to own firearms and, in some cases, the legal right to defend ourselves with those weapons. The acceptable use of legal force is carefully outlined to a State's laws and usually starts by a person being in fear of his/her life. Robbery may not classify as such and some states also have a duty to retreat clause (fortunately MO appears to be doing away with theirs). Having a firearm in ones backpack and having that stolen certainly raises the spectre of that firearm now being used against the owner. Pulling a gun on some unarmed punks might create more legal hassles than you care to have if they call 911 first. No clear answer here. Just be aware of your responsibilities should you chose to travel armed and what the laws are. Keeping your status of being armed or unarmed to yourself, don't share that info casually.

[+sbell111]

Homeowners shoot themselves and their family far more often than they shoot bad guys - and they should all have guns?

I knew a guy who told me his cousin’s friend’s sister was married to a guy who knew a woman whose dad was related to a guy and his dog was previously owned by a guy who accidentally shot his kid.

 

It’s funny how fabricated statistics, repeated often enough, will be not only believed, but repeated as though they were fact.

Hokay...

 

Fact. I was fourteen when my family and the family of my best friend Ronnie went target shooting. I had a set of matched US&S .45s that my uncle had sent me from Vietnam, the rest of us had a variety of firearms.

 

E.G. was my dad's best friend from grade school, had served together in the Navy, and he and his wife Virginia had remained close to my parents all along, thus Ronnie and I were best friends and had hunted with our parents since we were old enough to carry a .410 shotgun at about age 8 or 9.

 

We drive out a country road, set up targets and everyone had their target practice. At the end E.G. had been firing my .45s. When we got ready to leave everyone (supposedly) unloaded their weapons and put them in the bucket behind the back seat of E.G.'s Corvair, which we were all riding in. I didn't think to check the pistols, E.G. had served in the Navy with Dad, had Navy training on .45s, had been a lifetime hunter. Dad didn't check them, he assumed as I did, from long years of experience with E.G., that of course he had unloaded the pistols.

 

As we're driving out we get about a mile down the bumpy dirt road when one of my pistols goes off. The bullet passed through the back seat between my Mother and I and entered the back of Ronnies head in the front seat.

 

No need to go on with that story, but it fits here - having a gun introduces a real level of danger, no matter how experienced or trained.

 

FACT - My friend Carl comes by the house. His carpenter tools have all been stolen from his truck, as has his pistol, by an employee with a drug habit. He wants to borrow my pistol. He plans to go to the guy's house and ask for his stuff back (the police could do nothing, there was no proof this kid had taken the stuff, they couldn't just search his house).

 

Carl says he really doesn't expect trouble, it's just a dumb kid with a drug problem ripping off an easy target, but since the kid had stolen his gun he just felt like he should not go talk to the kid unarmed. So I lent him my .38.

 

Carl goes to the kid's house, honks his horn and gets out of the truck. The kid walks out on the porch. Carl pulls my gun and walks up to the kid, presses the barrel under the kid's chin and demands his stuff.

 

I don't know if the kid had seen too many movies, thought he was Rambo or what, but he swipes at the pistol to knock it away. End of kid.

 

Carl is eventually exonerated, of all things, on a self-defense charge! Hey this is Alabama, what can I say.

 

FACT - my neighbor, a single Dad, traveled a lot and left his 12 or 13 year-old son Sam in the care of his 20-something older sister. One night Sam has several friends over, playing Nintendo in his room. Somehow the topic turned to hunting, and Sam goes to his Dad's closet and pulls out Dad's 12 gauge shotgun, points it at his friend Corey and pulls the trigger.

 

My son, who was there, comes running in the house yelling "Dad, come quick, Sam shot Corey!"

 

Fortunately it was a light load of birdshot that hit Corey mostly in the chest, aside from lots of holes in his skin and some big-time bruising Corey wasn't hurt permanently.

 

FACT - my Secretary comes to my office in hysterics, her son has been shot at home.

 

I take her home and the kid, maybe 8, has found her .22 pistol in her night stand, managed to unload it, took the bullets outside where he commences hitting them with a rock. .22s being rim-fire of course one goes off and shoots him in the leg. Again, minor trauma, no lasting damage, lucky.

 

So, I have seen these things happen.

 

I have no statistics on how common such things are.

 

I personally have never had any sort of gun accident, nor have I ever pulled it in self-defense, yet twice people have died with my gun.

 

I do not personally know anyone that has ever used a handgun in self defense.

 

How does my experience match national statistics? I have no clue... but I stand by my position that having a gun is more dangerous to you and your family than not until I see statistics showing otherwise!

Two thoughts: 1) Why did you lend your gun to that guy? 2) Does anyone in Alabama consider gun safety to be important? I own a gun and know a number of people who own guns. I don't personally know of anybody who has had a gun-related accident.

[+ThirstyMick]

Alabama Rambler, I am truely sorry those things happened. I don't know what else to say, but wow..

Edited May 16, 2007 by ThirstyMick

[+Shakedown.dave]

Sorry about your misfortune. Glad to see that this hasn't altered your view of Geocaching. See you on the trail!

[vtmtnman]

Alabama Rambler, I am truely sorry those things happened. I don't know what else to say, but wow..

Agreed.

 

I've only one accident due to my stupidity,fortunetly I wasn't hurt...and frankly one accident is too many.I've learned never to trust people telling me their weapon is unloaded.

[+Ursamajr]

nope, we just moved in and we were looking into insurance because we got flooded after the huge rain storm here about a month ago... which destroyed our place. I'm hoping to catch a break soon.

 

 

I'm so happy you got the GPSr back and take care of that ankle - that looks like it smarts!

 

and after reading this thread on friday at work i get home to find my apartment was robbed - everything from my computer to a small gameboy, all my photographs, all our change (but left us the pennies), even the bathroom towels to wrap it all in. Ive lived in NY my whole life but I'm not feeling too pleased at the moment.

Bummer. Please tell us that it was all covered by insurance.

[+Ursamajr]

wow. I just don't understand people I guess. At all. I can't even fathom the workings of the minds of people that have no problem in hurting others.

 

I hope your friend has recovered.

 

 

Ursamajr: OH NO!! I'm so, so sorry to hear that. Man, must be a full moon. I think it's time to get some renter's insurance. I sure hope you had some. Hang in there.

 

A guy who a good friend of mine plays squash with was recently beaten unconscious with brass-knuckles by two guys, and when he got back from the hospital he discovered the scumbags had robbed his apartment while he was in there. That's just sick.

[+pcunningham]

Hokay...

 

Fact. I was fourteen when my family and the family of my best friend Ronnie went target shooting. I had a set of matched US&S .45s that my uncle had sent me from Vietnam, the rest of us had a variety of firearms.

 

E.G. was my dad's best friend from grade school, had served together in the Navy, and he and his wife Virginia had remained close to my parents all along, thus Ronnie and I were best friends and had hunted with our parents since we were old enough to carry a .410 shotgun at about age 8 or 9.

 

We drive out a country road, set up targets and everyone had their target practice. At the end E.G. had been firing my .45s. When we got ready to leave everyone (supposedly) unloaded their weapons and put them in the bucket behind the back seat of E.G.'s Corvair, which we were all riding in. I didn't think to check the pistols, E.G. had served in the Navy with Dad, had Navy training on .45s, had been a lifetime hunter. Dad didn't check them, he assumed as I did, from long years of experience with E.G., that of course he had unloaded the pistols.

 

As we're driving out we get about a mile down the bumpy dirt road when one of my pistols goes off. The bullet passed through the back seat between my Mother and I and entered the back of Ronnies head in the front seat.

 

No need to go on with that story, but it fits here - having a gun introduces a real level of danger, no matter how experienced or trained.

 

FACT - My friend Carl comes by the house. His carpenter tools have all been stolen from his truck, as has his pistol, by an employee with a drug habit. He wants to borrow my pistol. He plans to go to the guy's house and ask for his stuff back (the police could do nothing, there was no proof this kid had taken the stuff, they couldn't just search his house).

 

Carl says he really doesn't expect trouble, it's just a dumb kid with a drug problem ripping off an easy target, but since the kid had stolen his gun he just felt like he should not go talk to the kid unarmed. So I lent him my .38.

 

Carl goes to the kid's house, honks his horn and gets out of the truck. The kid walks out on the porch. Carl pulls my gun and walks up to the kid, presses the barrel under the kid's chin and demands his stuff.

 

I don't know if the kid had seen too many movies, thought he was Rambo or what, but he swipes at the pistol to knock it away. End of kid.

 

Carl is eventually exonerated, of all things, on a self-defense charge! Hey this is Alabama, what can I say.

 

FACT - my neighbor, a single Dad, traveled a lot and left his 12 or 13 year-old son Sam in the care of his 20-something older sister. One night Sam has several friends over, playing Nintendo in his room. Somehow the topic turned to hunting, and Sam goes to his Dad's closet and pulls out Dad's 12 gauge shotgun, points it at his friend Corey and pulls the trigger.

 

My son, who was there, comes running in the house yelling "Dad, come quick, Sam shot Corey!"

 

Fortunately it was a light load of birdshot that hit Corey mostly in the chest, aside from lots of holes in his skin and some big-time bruising Corey wasn't hurt permanently.

 

FACT - my Secretary comes to my office in hysterics, her son has been shot at home.

 

I take her home and the kid, maybe 8, has found her .22 pistol in her night stand, managed to unload it, took the bullets outside where he commences hitting them with a rock. .22s being rim-fire of course one goes off and shoots him in the leg. Again, minor trauma, no lasting damage, lucky.

 

So, I have seen these things happen.

 

I have no statistics on how common such things are.

 

I personally have never had any sort of gun accident, nor have I ever pulled it in self-defense, yet twice people have died with my gun.

 

I do not personally know anyone that has ever used a handgun in self defense.

 

How does my experience match national statistics? I have no clue... but I stand by my position that having a gun is more dangerous to you and your family than not until I see statistics showing otherwise!

 

Wow. You've convinced me. You shouldn't have a gun.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Two thoughts: 1) Why did you lend your gun to that guy? 2) Does anyone in Alabama consider gun safety to be important? I own a gun and know a number of people who own guns. I don't personally know of anybody who has had a gun-related accident.

Practically everyone I know has guns here in Alabama, buying, selling, trading, lending is a common occurrence. He certainly didn't tell me he planned to stick it in the guy's throat to threaten him however!

 

For as many gun owners as we have down here I think it's amazing there aren't many more such incidents.

 

Many Yankees would have a fit to drive into the parking lot of most any rural Alabama school - half the kids and teachers drive pickups with gun racks in the back window holding at least one shotgun or rifle.

 

It's just a different way of life, we take them pretty much for granted. The big cities are a bit tighter, but I still see it in the parking lot of my son's high school now and then... and his is one of the biggest suburban high schools in the state.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Alabama Rambler, I am truely sorry those things happened. I don't know what else to say, but wow..

Agreed.

 

I've only one accident due to my stupidity,fortunetly I wasn't hurt...and frankly one accident is too many.I've learned never to trust people telling me their weapon is unloaded.

Yup, I learned my lesson early - there's no such thing as an empty weapon. I treat every firearm as if it were loaded and cocked at all times unless I personally just cleared it.

[vtmtnman]

Two thoughts: 1) Why did you lend your gun to that guy? 2) Does anyone in Alabama consider gun safety to be important? I own a gun and know a number of people who own guns. I don't personally know of anybody who has had a gun-related accident.

Practically everyone I know has guns here in Alabama, buying, selling, trading, lending is a common occurrence. He certainly didn't tell me he planned to stick it in the guy's throat to threaten him however!

 

For as many gun owners as we have down here I think it's amazing there aren't many more such incidents.

 

Many Yankees would have a fit to drive into the parking lot of most any rural Alabama school - half the kids and teachers drive pickups with gun racks in the back window holding at least one shotgun or rifle.

 

It's just a different way of life, we take them pretty much for granted. The big cities are a bit tighter, but I still see it in the parking lot of my son's high school now and then... and his is one of the biggest suburban high schools in the state.

Same with us up here.The only people that look at me twice when holding a weapon in my area are the out of towners.

[+Criminal]

Homeowners shoot themselves and their family far more often than they shoot bad guys - and they should all have guns?

I knew a guy who told me his cousin’s friend’s sister was married to a guy who knew a woman whose dad was related to a guy and his dog was previously owned by a guy who accidentally shot his kid.

 

It’s funny how fabricated statistics, repeated often enough, will be not only believed, but repeated as though they were fact.

No need to go on with that story, but it fits here - having a gun introduces a real level of danger, no matter how experienced or trained.

No, negligence, complacency, or irresponsibility was the danger

 

So I lent him my .38.

Huh? You introduced a firearm into an already volatile situation and you don’t accept any responsibility?

 

… Sam goes to his Dad's closet and pulls out Dad's 12 gauge shotgun, points it at his friend Corey and pulls the trigger.

Irresponsibility, whether with a gun or a welding torch, is stupid.

 

FACT - my Secretary comes to my office in hysterics, her son has been shot at home.

 

I take her home and the kid, maybe 8, has found her .22 pistol in her night stand, managed to unload it, took the bullets outside where he commences hitting them with a rock. .22s being rim-fire of course one goes off and shoots him in the leg.

See the above. Point of fact though, he wasn’t ‘shot’. He could have achieved the same results with a firecracker, as many have.

 

So, I have seen these things happen.

That still doesn’t support your contention that homeowners shoot themselves far more than they shoot bad guys. That claim also leaves out all the times homeowners (or other citizens) use firearms without shooting.

[magellan315]

Time for the sun to set on the Culture of Sheep

snip

 

Contrary to popular belief many of these school shootings occur when children, mainly boys, are subjected daily physical and/or emotional abuse by their classmates and peer isolation. They don't snap, these shootings are planned far in advance and the shooters often tell people what they are going to or threaten to bring a gun to school. Many of them were avoidable if people had spoken up, rather than remain silent.

 

Even more could be prevented if parents, teachers, and students made more of an effort to create an environment where bullies and some of the nastier elements of cliques were dealt with. Or if people would speak up when they thought someone was planning an attack. Perhaps if people made more of an effort to prevent attacks than focusing on bringing guns to school we would find see a reduction.

 

The Secret Service researched a report that dealt with this subject.

Condensded verion of the report

Secret Service Report

Edited May 17, 2007 by magellan315

[+eagletrek]

WOW!!!!!! Has this thread derailed itself over the "fight or flight" issue. I believe that if the OP had kept aware of his surroundings before, during, and after finding the cache, he might have been able to avoid the situation altogether. If he had maintained a heightened state of alertness, I believe he would have noticed the approaching group of punks long before they were in position to overtake and mug him.

 

Given that the incident occured in NYC and the size of the group encountered, I believe the "flight" option was the only practical option to the OP. I believe, as a new cacher, the OP was entirely focused on the cache and not was aware of what was going on in the surrounding area. If he had been, he might have noticed the developing situation and had time to react to avoid the situation.

 

No matter what, the OP let down his guard and allowed a bad situation to develop. Stay alert, stay alive.

 

Now if this had happened to me on my turf, Texas, it may have been a different situation. Since I normally cache solo and in a heightened state of alertness (yellow/orange), I believe I'd have had advanced notice of the group's approach and either would have decided to retrograde out of the area (first choice) or if no adequate escape route was available, to fight. It helps to conduct a visual recon of the area the cache is in as you approach it, as knowledge of that area may save your life. If left with no choice to fight, two well placed rounds in the most dangerous target followed in rapid succession by two more shots in the next most dangerous target will most likely get a group of punks to change their attitude real quick and leave the area.

 

Remember, since this is a litigious society, my first choice would be flight but if faced with the imminent danger of loss of life, with no chance of escape, I'd fight.

 

Situational Awareness is worth its weight in gold!!!!!!!!!!

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

That still doesn’t support your contention that homeowners shoot themselves far more than they shoot bad guys. That claim also leaves out all the times homeowners (or other citizens) use firearms without shooting.

Nope, and I did not try to support it - if you discuss the whole post instead of out-of-context sentences the end reads:

How does my experience match national statistics? I have no clue... but I stand by my position that having a gun is more dangerous to you and your family than not until I see statistics showing otherwise!

Got stats?

[+Confucius' Cat]

<snip>

No need to go on with that story, but it fits here - having a gun introduces a real level of danger, no matter how experienced or trained.

<snip>

This could be said about any dangerous machine or substance. E.G. More people who have Tylenol® in their medicine cabinet overdose on it than those who do not. More people who own cars are involved in auto accidents than those who do not. Skateboards, hammers, Q-tips®... pretty much anything can cause an accident, especially in the hands of the inattentive, untrained, or negligent.

 

In keeping and using ANYTHING, one must understand the risks and use the item responsibly.

 

From your post i would agree guns are probably not for you. If I had had as many misfortunes as you have, I'm quite sure i would have banned guns in my house long ago. Hopefully you have learned from these experiences how to be safer in handling deadly machines. Otherwise you would be very prudent getting rid of them.

 

As to your last line, I have never heard of ANYONE with as many personal accounts as in your post. Your experience is your experience and I respect your right to decide for yourself that guns are not for you. But if it comes to deciding that for me and everyone else, we must part company.

 

Time for the sun to set on the Culture of Sheep

snip

 

Contrary to popular belief many of these school shootings occur when children, mainly boys, are subjected daily physical and/or emotional abuse by their classmates and peer isolation. They don't snap, these shootings are planned far in advance and the shooters often tell people what they are going to or threaten to bring a gun to school. Many of them were avoidable if people had spoken up, rather than remain silent.

 

Even more could be prevented if parents, teachers, and students made more of an effort to create an environment where bullies and some of the nastier elements of cliques were dealt with. Or if people would speak up when they thought someone was planning an attack. Perhaps if people made more of an effort to prevent attacks than focusing on bringing guns to school we would find see a reduction.

 

The Secret Service researched a report that dealt with this subject.

Condensded verion of the report

Secret Service Report

ABSOLUTELY!

 

I have said this all along. In fact I was one of the ones bullied in school. I think it probably happens to everyone to some extent because young immature people are, well, IMMATURE.

 

Fortunately "back in the day" school teachers and principals would actually DO THEIR JOB and investigate altercations that were reported to them and punish the real bully instead of taking the lazy way out by hiding behind the "zero tolerance" BS of today and punishing the innocent along with the guilty.

 

I always thought "shoot 'em all and let God sort 'em out" was a joke, but it seems to be the norm when it comes to the school officials' handling of altercations. (just to be clear: "shoot" in this sentence is a metaphor)

 

IMO, the fact that the innocents are punished along with the guilty is the PRIME reason for the popularity of school shooting incidents.

 

Still, it is VERY important that mature adults keep deadly weapons OUT OF THE HANDS of immature children. LOCKS!!! If you have kids and guns you GOTTA HAVE LOCKS! And they gotta be LOCKED and the key in your possession.

 

I am a firm believer in training kids in gun safety and teaching them to shoot and showing them the power of the weapons. I also know that kids will be kids and they cannot be trusted out of your sight. That is why the lord made LOCKS!

 

My guns are either in one of two places: On my person and in my direct control, or in the safe- LOCKED. Now I only gotta worry about me.

[+Confucius' Cat]

How absolutely right you are! Good situational awareness can do more to keep you safe than anything else. A great article on one man's work on situational awareness can be found here.

Excellent article. I especially noted this paragraph:

Anything or anyone in your immediate vicinity that is unusual, out of place, or out of context, should be viewed as potentially dangerous, until you have had a chance to assess it. Someone who looks out of place, or someone engaged in activity that has no obvious legitimate purpose, should be looked over carefully. When your mental radar picks up on a blip, you immediately escalate one level on the scale, to Condition Orange.

 

Does this description sound familiar?

 

Like maybe a cacher searching for an urban micro?

 

As cachers, we are on both sides of the security issue. We need to constantly be aware of our surroundings and at the same time we are perceived as a potential threat by others in the area because our actions are "unusual" in the context of the environment.

 

So we have a very difficult proposition: to watch for suspicious activity whilst at the same time trying not to look suspicious ourselves.

 

This brings up the question, especially if a cacher is unknown to the local community, who will the local LEO focus on as the potential "bad guy" if called to the scene where perhaps a cacher is being mugged? (obviously depends on over-all circumstances)

[+eagletrek]

How absolutely right you are! Good situational awareness can do more to keep you safe than anything else. A great article on one man's work on situational awareness can be found here.

Excellent article. I especially noted this paragraph:

Anything or anyone in your immediate vicinity that is unusual, out of place, or out of context, should be viewed as potentially dangerous, until you have had a chance to assess it. Someone who looks out of place, or someone engaged in activity that has no obvious legitimate purpose, should be looked over carefully. When your mental radar picks up on a blip, you immediately escalate one level on the scale, to Condition Orange.

 

Does this description sound familiar?

 

Like maybe a cacher searching for an urban micro?

 

As cachers, we are on both sides of the security issue. We need to constantly be aware of our surroundings and at the same time we are perceived as a potential threat by others in the area because our actions are "unusual" in the context of the environment.

 

So we have a very difficult proposition: to watch for suspicious activity whilst at the same time trying not to look suspicious ourselves.

 

This brings up the question, especially if a cacher is unknown to the local community, who will the local LEO focus on as the potential "bad guy" if called to the scene where perhaps a cacher is being mugged? (obviously depends on over-all circumstances)

 

Hell, don't worry about being mistaken by law enforcement, I've been shot at twice while caching, while on public land. Seems that some folks don't like strangers in their parts!!!!!

[Gnome^]

eagletrek hit the nail on the head. Situational awareness is one of the FIRST item of thought for anybody who trecks the (sub) urban jungle. Police and military teach this! Awarness of your surroundings, who's there (who's not there) Etc. People walk into buildings, heedless of the best/closest exits, more often proneto the door they came in if a fire breaks out. Who's sitting in that van over there in the parking lot near your car? Whos in a city park doing playing B-ball or skateboarding or who's obviously looking for something

We may be eyeballing our GPSr more so than the group of miscreant morons who watched you pull up and fumble with equipment.

 

The debate of defending oneself with lethal or non-lethal force is moot- have you been trained to use a weapon in a combat situation? Do you understand the laws regarding this issue in your community?

 

Every situation is different, there is no cut and dried solution to what options you have when faced with what happened that started this thread.

Being aware of what is going on is the first line of defence.

Edited May 17, 2007 by Gnome^

[+pcunningham]

Still, it is VERY important that mature adults keep deadly weapons OUT OF THE HANDS of immature children. LOCKS!!! If you have kids and guns you GOTTA HAVE LOCKS! And they gotta be LOCKED and the key in your possession.

 

I am a firm believer in training kids in gun safety and teaching them to shoot and showing them the power of the weapons. I also know that kids will be kids and they cannot be trusted out of your sight. That is why the lord made LOCKS!

 

My guns are either in one of two places: On my person and in my direct control, or in the safe- LOCKED. Now I only gotta worry about me.

 

This, in my opinion, in the very definition of responsibility, not only for firearms but for cars, drain cleaner, chainsaws, framing nailers, live electrical wires, nuclear powerplants, rotating propellers, and anything else that may cause harm to an irresponsible person. Like Confucius Cat, if it's not strapped to me it's unloaded and locked up. The bottom line: if it's not in your control lock it up!

 

As far as training kids, I'm a firm believer as well. Like the experience of a previous poster, children are interested in everything, especially grownup objects that are hidden from them. I raised two kids to adulthood and taught them at an early age to respect firearms but that they are tools like any other tool. The rule in our house was that the kids could see any gun any time they wanted all they had to do was ask. The same rule held for other tools and grownup objects as well. We never had a problem because we took the mystique away. Thus, having firearms in the house was a non-event.

[vtmtnman]

So it's safe to say that from the OP to now that situational awareness is a good thing to have while caching?even if packing or not packing correct?

[+Brik]

Yep - Thats good advice for sure. There are actually classes taught on this. It should be part of your psyche. It does not mean being paranoid, just means being aware. Common sense and the dreaded word, profiling, are certainly part of being aware.

[+egami]

I usually just approach a cache area and if more than 5 muggles show up I start firing rounds.

[vtmtnman]

I usually just approach a cache area and if more than 5 muggles show up I start firing rounds.

 

I thought I was the only one that did that!

[+geomann1]

I usually just approach a cache area and if more than 5 muggles show up I start firing rounds.

 

I thought I was the only one that did that!

 

In Florida, we ask if its tourist season, why can't we shoot them?

[+egami]

I usually just approach a cache area and if more than 5 muggles show up I start firing rounds.

 

I thought I was the only one that did that!

 

In Florida, we ask if its tourist season, why can't we shoot them?

 

Well, that's what you get for living in Florida...

[vtmtnman]

I usually just approach a cache area and if more than 5 muggles show up I start firing rounds.

 

I thought I was the only one that did that!

 

In Florida, we ask if its tourist season, why can't we shoot them?

Same in VT,except it harder to get em.Those skis make move so dang fast!

[TriptychR]

To the OP who I notice has been absent since this thread turned into a full-fledged debate: I'm glad you're safe and that things didn't turn out much worse for you! Hope your ankle heals soon and they catch all the punks who were involved!

[+VerySmartGirl]

That still doesn’t support your contention that homeowners shoot themselves far more than they shoot bad guys. That claim also leaves out all the times homeowners (or other citizens) use firearms without shooting.

Nope, and I did not try to support it - if you discuss the whole post instead of out-of-context sentences the end reads:

How does my experience match national statistics? I have no clue... but I stand by my position that having a gun is more dangerous to you and your family than not until I see statistics showing otherwise!

Got stats?

 

Glad to hear the OPer is recoverying WITH his GPS.... now for a drift to off topic...

 

There are stats on this subject, see the reference and quote below or in summary...

 

People with guns in the home are more at risk of dying from a firearm homicide or firearm suicide . The breakdown on the deaths comes from the paper. You can see 1 in 3 are killed during an arguement, while 1 in 6 are killed during a robbery. Therefore if you have a gun in the home, you are more likely to die for the wrong reason than in defending yourself in a robbery.

 

It, of course, does not estimate how many robberies or deaths were prevented by the gun owning homeowners. None of the surveyors wanted to knock on their doors!

 

This is not a political statement, just a fact from an epidemiology publication.

 

The data comes from 49 states (South Dakota has a law about looking at death cert for research, hmm wonder what they are hidding ) and a 10% sampling of everyone 15 years and older who died in 1993. Aprox. 2000 deaths make up this data.

 

"Over three quarters (76.3 percent) of the homicide victims knew their assailant. Nearly one third (31.7 percent) of the homicides occurred during a family argument, 15.4 percent during a robbery, 4.1 percent during a drug deal, 0.2 percent during an abduction, and 44.1 percent for other unspecified reasons. In 4.5 percent of the homicides, multiple circumstances were reported."

 

Guns in the Home and Risk of a Violent Death in the Home: Findings from a National Study

Linda L. Dahlberg1 , Robin M. Ikeda2 and Marcie-jo Kresnow3

1 Division of Violence Prevention, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, GA.

2 Epidemiology Program Office, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, GA.

3 Office of Statistics and Programming, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, GA.

Received for publication February 9, 2004; accepted for publication June 7, 2004

[+sbell111]

That still doesn’t support your contention that homeowners shoot themselves far more than they shoot bad guys. That claim also leaves out all the times homeowners (or other citizens) use firearms without shooting.

Nope, and I did not try to support it - if you discuss the whole post instead of out-of-context sentences the end reads:

How does my experience match national statistics? I have no clue... but I stand by my position that having a gun is more dangerous to you and your family than not until I see statistics showing otherwise!

Got stats?

 

Glad to hear the OPer is recoverying WITH his GPS.... now for a drift to off topic...

 

There are stats on this subject, see the reference and quote below or in summary...

 

People with guns in the home are more at risk of dying from a firearm homicide or firearm suicide . The breakdown on the deaths comes from the paper. You can see 1 in 3 are killed during an arguement, while 1 in 6 are killed during a robbery. Therefore if you have a gun in the home, you are more likely to die for the wrong reason than in defending yourself in a robbery.

 

It, of course, does not estimate how many robberies or deaths were prevented by the gun owning homeowners. None of the surveyors wanted to knock on their doors!

 

This is not a political statement, just a fact from an epidemiology publication.

 

The data comes from 49 states (South Dakota has a law about looking at death cert for research, hmm wonder what they are hidding ) and a 10% sampling of everyone 15 years and older who died in 1993. Aprox. 2000 deaths make up this data.

 

"Over three quarters (76.3 percent) of the homicide victims knew their assailant. Nearly one third (31.7 percent) of the homicides occurred during a family argument, 15.4 percent during a robbery, 4.1 percent during a drug deal, 0.2 percent during an abduction, and 44.1 percent for other unspecified reasons. In 4.5 percent of the homicides, multiple circumstances were reported."

 

Guns in the Home and Risk of a Violent Death in the Home: Findings from a National Study

Linda L. Dahlberg1 , Robin M. Ikeda2 and Marcie-jo Kresnow3

1 Division of Violence Prevention, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, GA.

2 Epidemiology Program Office, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, GA.

3 Office of Statistics and Programming, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, GA.

Received for publication February 9, 2004; accepted for publication June 7, 2004

I wonder how much those numbers are skewed by the fact that many of the people who are killed in there homes by firearms are not 'normal'. For instance, you hear of a bunch of people being shot in homes when drug deals go bad. The people living in that drug house have a MUCH more likely chance to have a violent end than the 'normal' person. In my opinion, the fact that the people owned a gun is not necessarily the driver of the statistics. The fact that these people led lives that got them killed was the driver. Edited May 18, 2007 by sbell111

[+eagletrek]

That still doesn’t support your contention that homeowners shoot themselves far more than they shoot bad guys. That claim also leaves out all the times homeowners (or other citizens) use firearms without shooting.

Nope, and I did not try to support it - if you discuss the whole post instead of out-of-context sentences the end reads:

How does my experience match national statistics? I have no clue... but I stand by my position that having a gun is more dangerous to you and your family than not until I see statistics showing otherwise!

Got stats?

 

Glad to hear the OPer is recoverying WITH his GPS.... now for a drift to off topic...

 

There are stats on this subject, see the reference and quote below or in summary...

 

People with guns in the home are more at risk of dying from a firearm homicide or firearm suicide . The breakdown on the deaths comes from the paper. You can see 1 in 3 are killed during an arguement, while 1 in 6 are killed during a robbery. Therefore if you have a gun in the home, you are more likely to die for the wrong reason than in defending yourself in a robbery.

 

It, of course, does not estimate how many robberies or deaths were prevented by the gun owning homeowners. None of the surveyors wanted to knock on their doors!

 

This is not a political statement, just a fact from an epidemiology publication.

 

The data comes from 49 states (South Dakota has a law about looking at death cert for research, hmm wonder what they are hidding ) and a 10% sampling of everyone 15 years and older who died in 1993. Aprox. 2000 deaths make up this data.

 

"Over three quarters (76.3 percent) of the homicide victims knew their assailant. Nearly one third (31.7 percent) of the homicides occurred during a family argument, 15.4 percent during a robbery, 4.1 percent during a drug deal, 0.2 percent during an abduction, and 44.1 percent for other unspecified reasons. In 4.5 percent of the homicides, multiple circumstances were reported."

 

Guns in the Home and Risk of a Violent Death in the Home: Findings from a National Study

Linda L. Dahlberg1 , Robin M. Ikeda2 and Marcie-jo Kresnow3

1 Division of Violence Prevention, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, GA.

2 Epidemiology Program Office, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, GA.

3 Office of Statistics and Programming, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, GA.

Received for publication February 9, 2004; accepted for publication June 7, 2004

I wonder how much those numbers are skewed by the fact that many of the people who are killed in there homes by firearms are not 'normal'. For instance, you hear of a bunch of people being shot in homes when drug deals go bad. The people living in that drug house have a MUCH more likely chance to have a violent end than the 'normal' person. In my opinion, the fact that the people owned a gun is not necessarily the driver of the statistics. The fact that these people led lives that got them killed was the driver.

 

I believe sbell111 is on to something!!!!! If only "normal" folks should have guns, then I think it's high time that all "cachers" surrender their weapons!!!!!

Edited May 18, 2007 by eagletrek

[+pcunningham]

There are stats on this subject, see the reference and quote below or in summary...

 

People with guns in the home are more at risk of dying from a firearm homicide or firearm suicide . <snip>

 

Which, as sbell111 pointed out, is likely much more a function of lifestyle than of gun presence. Correlation does not equal causation. Couples with children are more likely to divorce than couples without. Are we then to conclude that children cause divorce?

Edited May 18, 2007 by pcunningham

[+Hiking Cockroachess]

I had an incident with my own can of pepper spray, so I know it's effectiveness.

 

A year ago, I was making a turn in my large vehicle, when I heard a "thunk" on the floor. Wha-?

 

Suddenly, I could NOT breathe, and my eyes and my sinuses were like saltwater firehoses. I opened the window, parked it SO fast very crookedly because I couldn't see very well. (Actually I knew that particular side street, so I could park it there almost with my eyes closed, fortunately). Then I quickly grabbed my keys and and escaped the car.

 

Oh MAN... it took about 15 minutes for me to get my sight and my breath back. Then I aired out the car to see what the heck happened.

 

There is a safety lock on every UDAP can of pepper spray. I had left the safety off. The can fell because I had not secured it well, and it hit the floor - just for a microsecond. That was it. The can bounced off the top where the trigger was, and then landed on it's side. This meant the can simply spit a little, gave a small puff of it's power. And good LORD, that was way more than enough!

 

I've been in both martial arts classes (Tai Chi...it's like judo on quaeludes, but don't laugh...it works when sped up) AND self-defence classes. The latter was much "dirtier" in style, with the emphasis not on destroying your opponent, but on disabling them long enough for you to "get outta there!" Both stressed that the best way to win a fight is to avoid the situation in the first place. This isn't always the easiest thing to do, I know.

 

I carry a small pepper-spray called "The Jogger," which I also carry for running. It for use in a last-ditch effort, as it can backfire. Get the wind going the right direction, and you're the one with the pepper spray in the eyes, not the mugger. I also carry a small airhorn, but that's more for shooing off an animal, as I do not personally wish to carry a gun.

 

Caching with a group is optimal, but I agree that sometimes just going on your own feels good. I do both, keeping an eye out for trouble especially when on my own. There have been a couple of times where I just bugged out of somewhere because of a suspicious muggle or group of muggles.

 

Your attitude on this occurance is higher than commendable. Most people would have written off geocaching all-together, but you seem to be taking this with your head held high, vowing to return. I seriously hope that I get to meet you at an event someday, as your attitude is amazing.

 

These kids were out for somebody...it didn't have to be a cacher. Sad to say it, but I doubt they knew the 60CsX for a GPSr, and considering that all the "cool technology" is small now, I doubt they thought it was a phone. Roughing you...or somebody else...up was probably their power play of the day. Don't beat yourself up, thinking that you were necessarily a target because you were geocaching.

 

Lastly, RICE...Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation for that ankle. Let us know what the word is on it. Good luck out there; we're thinking of you.

[+eagletrek]

There are stats on this subject, see the reference and quote below or in summary...

 

People with guns in the home are more at risk of dying from a firearm homicide or firearm suicide . <snip>

 

Which, as sbell111 pointed out, is likely much more a function of lifestyle than of gun presence. Correlation does not equal causation. Couples with children are more likely to divorce than couples without. Are we then to conclude that children cause divorce?

 

Spot On!!!!!!!! A man of logic. Truly a rare find nowadays!!!!

[+EastVillageFamily]

I have kept quiet for a week about this to see if anyone else mentions the obvious urban facts here.

Since no one has, I have posted the following log for this cache:

 

This is cache is in a dangerous location, as I said in a post when it was first published.

 

I have lived in Manhattan for over 40 years. I grew up several blocks from this cache, and I am now raising my family on the Lower East Side. I helped clear my neighborhood of drug related activity in the 90s. And I have spent over 25 years shooting news video and film on the streets of NY.

 

I have placed over 20 geocaches in Manhattan and have always been careful to make sure they were not in a location where geocachers would have to compete with street folks to grab them -- so I know just how hard that is to do.

 

The following is based on my personal experience.

 

Riverside Park and Morningside Park have historically been havens for the homeless and drug dealers in part because they contain so many hiding places for many things. Central Park has less drug activity these days. Guilianni stopped a lot of blatant obvious lawlessness in the city, but came no where near eliminating drug related crime -- The streets and parks are pleasant to walk in again, but you must still be careful.

 

The stone walls in particular are favorite hiding places for drug stashes.

 

Drug dealers often employ groups of underage boys to act as runners, and to scare off anyone they don't want around. The dealers themselves are often nearby, but appear to be disinterested somewhat scary guys that you don't want to approach.

 

The woods at the Northern part of Riverside park are a favorite camping area for many homeless folks. This is the same place the first Manhattan cache [GC9D] was placed, and it did not last.

 

If this group of young men wanted money, they would have made the cacher give it to them. They wanted to scare him out of the area and they succeeded.

 

Future geocachers should not have to wonder if they will be attacked in this area. And thrill seeking geocachers should not come here looking for encounters with muggers. I personally do not want to see anymore of this type of encounter happening in New York City, so I am politely asking that the cache be archived or moved to a safer location.

[+Confucius' Cat]

 

There are stats on this subject, see the reference and quote below or in summary...

 

People with guns in the home are more at risk of dying from a firearm homicide or firearm suicide .

DUH!

Kinda hard to die from a self- inflicted or accidental gunshot wound if you don't have a GUN, dontcha think?

Edited May 18, 2007 by Confucius' Cat

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Homeowners shoot themselves and their family far more often than they shoot bad guys - and they should all have guns?

I knew a guy who told me his cousin’s friend’s sister was married to a guy who knew a woman whose dad was related to a guy and his dog was previously owned by a guy who accidentally shot his kid.

 

It’s funny how fabricated statistics, repeated often enough, will be not only believed, but repeated as though they were fact.

Hokay...

 

Fact. I was fourteen when my family and the family of my best friend Ronnie went target shooting. I had a set of matched US&S .45s that my uncle had sent me from Vietnam, the rest of us had a variety of firearms.

 

E.G. was my dad's best friend from grade school, had served together in the Navy, and he and his wife Virginia had remained close to my parents all along, thus Ronnie and I were best friends and had hunted with our parents since we were old enough to carry a .410 shotgun at about age 8 or 9.

 

We drive out a country road, set up targets and everyone had their target practice. At the end E.G. had been firing my .45s. When we got ready to leave everyone (supposedly) unloaded their weapons and put them in the bucket behind the back seat of E.G.'s Corvair, which we were all riding in. I didn't think to check the pistols, E.G. had served in the Navy with Dad, had Navy training on .45s, had been a lifetime hunter. Dad didn't check them, he assumed as I did, from long years of experience with E.G., that of course he had unloaded the pistols.

 

As we're driving out we get about a mile down the bumpy dirt road when one of my pistols goes off. The bullet passed through the back seat between my Mother and I and entered the back of Ronnies head in the front seat.

 

No need to go on with that story, but it fits here - having a gun introduces a real level of danger, no matter how experienced or trained.

 

FACT - My friend Carl comes by the house. His carpenter tools have all been stolen from his truck, as has his pistol, by an employee with a drug habit. He wants to borrow my pistol. He plans to go to the guy's house and ask for his stuff back (the police could do nothing, there was no proof this kid had taken the stuff, they couldn't just search his house).

 

Carl says he really doesn't expect trouble, it's just a dumb kid with a drug problem ripping off an easy target, but since the kid had stolen his gun he just felt like he should not go talk to the kid unarmed. So I lent him my .38.

 

Carl goes to the kid's house, honks his horn and gets out of the truck. The kid walks out on the porch. Carl pulls my gun and walks up to the kid, presses the barrel under the kid's chin and demands his stuff.

 

I don't know if the kid had seen too many movies, thought he was Rambo or what, but he swipes at the pistol to knock it away. End of kid.

 

Carl is eventually exonerated, of all things, on a self-defense charge! Hey this is Alabama, what can I say.

 

FACT - my neighbor, a single Dad, traveled a lot and left his 12 or 13 year-old son Sam in the care of his 20-something older sister. One night Sam has several friends over, playing Nintendo in his room. Somehow the topic turned to hunting, and Sam goes to his Dad's closet and pulls out Dad's 12 gauge shotgun, points it at his friend Corey and pulls the trigger.

 

My son, who was there, comes running in the house yelling "Dad, come quick, Sam shot Corey!"

 

Fortunately it was a light load of birdshot that hit Corey mostly in the chest, aside from lots of holes in his skin and some big-time bruising Corey wasn't hurt permanently.

 

FACT - my Secretary comes to my office in hysterics, her son has been shot at home.

 

I take her home and the kid, maybe 8, has found her .22 pistol in her night stand, managed to unload it, took the bullets outside where he commences hitting them with a rock. .22s being rim-fire of course one goes off and shoots him in the leg. Again, minor trauma, no lasting damage, lucky.

 

So, I have seen these things happen.

 

I have no statistics on how common such things are.

 

I personally have never had any sort of gun accident, nor have I ever pulled it in self-defense, yet twice people have died with my gun.

 

I do not personally know anyone that has ever used a handgun in self defense.

 

How does my experience match national statistics? I have no clue... but I stand by my position that having a gun is more dangerous to you and your family than not until I see statistics showing otherwise!

Thanks, Ed. Good tales! I grew up in a household with guns, and was trained at a very early age how to handle a pistol and a rifle properly, and I handled guns all through my childhood, even belonged to the gun clubs in my private high school. Among my family and our neighbors who had guns, I never saw a gun need to be used for self-defense, but witnessed several very scary accidents when people were nearly killed due to poor or inattentive handling of guns by very experienced and highly-trained people, or by abuse of guns by psychotic or drunk gun owners. As an adult, I deliberately choose not to be armed and not to have any guns in the house; this decision is in part due to the things that I witnessed in my childhood. I am not anti-gun and I am not pro-gun; for me, it is simply a matter of personal choice and I choose not to own guns.

[+pcunningham]

As an adult, I deliberately choose not to be armed and not to have any guns in the house; this decision is in part due to the things that I witnessed in my childhood. I am not anti-gun and I am not pro-gun; for me, it is simply a matter of personal choice and I choose not to own guns.

 

And here's the funny thing I, and every responsible gun owner I know of, fully support and respect your decision and I will defend with every fabric of my being your right to make that choice. That same commitment to freedom and choice doesn't always seem to be reciprocated by those who are prone to a more uninformed knee-jerk reaction when it comes to gun ownership.

[+HaLiJuSaPa]

... Nobody addressed the story I told earlier. When I was four i found a gun hidden by my father in the one bedroom new york city apartment that i grew up in. What if I shot myself? I was four. In a one bedroom apartment its a little harder to hide something from your kids. ...

 

Same deal here (though a small house, not a 1BD apt), but I guess not as much of a problem, since I was 16 at the time......I'm assuming (I never asked) that he didn't have one when I was 4, probably got more worried about burglaries and break-ins as he got older and the NY area went through a crime-ridden late 70s and early 80s (that thankfully is so so much better now). Also it was a rifle, so I might have had a hard time lifting it at 4 years old anyway (but you never know). But I wasn't too thrilled about it either so I hear you there.

[uperdooper]

my father kept a loaded 38 next to his bed when we were kids. i remember being told when i was 5 what it was and to leave it alone so i never touched it. maybe the fact that we weren't allowed in their bedroom and we had a healthy fear of what my father would do if we were caught in there kept us away.

 

i would not have my handguns now without the gun safe i keep them in. even my husband doesn't have the combo for it.

 

a shoebox in the closet is not a safe way to store a gun.

 

on topic: when are you getting your GPSr back?

[+Criminal]

Stats, for any position, are easily manipulated. There's interesting reading here.

[magellan315]

Stats, for any position, are easily manipulated. There's interesting reading here.

 

And articles can leave out information that can manipulate how they present information to their readers. Here's yours from the Culture of Sheep article

In 1997 in Pearl, Mississippi, a 10th grader named Luke Woodham killed his mother and then went to school with the family 30-30 deer rifle. He shot nine fellow students.

 

Here's the quote from the Secret Service report regarding school shootings, your article left out the part in bold

Luke Woodham, 16, Pearl, Miss., Oct. 1, 1997. Killed his mother, then killed two

students and wounded seven. Was urged on by other boys.

Edited May 20, 2007 by magellan315

[+Harry Dolphin]

I’ve just gotten the opportunity to read this thread.

Greenbriel, I’m very sorry to hear that this happened, and you have my best wishes for a speedy recovery, but you should have that ankle looked at. I’m glad that you got your GPS back, but your health is more important.

I’ve visited the city frequently over the last forty years. As BrianSnat points out, it’s a much safer place now than it was in the 70’s. (And, no, it’s not just Guiliani’s doing.) In the 60’s, I wouldn’t go into Central Park, much less Riverside or Morningside. New York is doing a great job with its parks!

I’ve cached the city extensively in the last three years, but always on Saturday afternoons. (Dang! I cleared Manhattan of caches three times, but EVF and Concrete Rat keep putting out new ones!) The only places I’ve felt ill at ease were Mount Morris Park, and the cruisy areas in Central Park near African Skies. Maybe I’m just naïve? I found the cache mentioned last October.

As someone mentioned, the rock walls are not the safest place to hide caches.

Read this log for TONY

Or this one for George slept here

Manhattan is a great place to geocache. Geocaching has shown me some great places that I wouldn’t have seen otherwise, but I’ll stick to Saturday afternoons.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

I have kept quiet for a week about this to see if anyone else mentions the obvious urban facts here.

Since no one has, I have posted the following log for this cache:

 

This is cache is in a dangerous location, as I said in a post when it was first published.

 

I have lived in Manhattan for over 40 years. I grew up several blocks from this cache, and I am now raising my family on the Lower East Side. I helped clear my neighborhood of drug related activity in the 90s. And I have spent over 25 years shooting news video and film on the streets of NY.

 

I have placed over 20 geocaches in Manhattan and have always been careful to make sure they were not in a location where geocachers would have to compete with street folks to grab them -- so I know just how hard that is to do.

 

The following is based on my personal experience.

 

Riverside Park and Morningside Park have historically been havens for the homeless and drug dealers in part because they contain so many hiding places for many things. Central Park has less drug activity these days. Guilianni stopped a lot of blatant obvious lawlessness in the city, but came no where near eliminating drug related crime -- The streets and parks are pleasant to walk in again, but you must still be careful.

 

The stone walls in particular are favorite hiding places for drug stashes.

 

Drug dealers often employ groups of underage boys to act as runners, and to scare off anyone they don't want around. The dealers themselves are often nearby, but appear to be disinterested somewhat scary guys that you don't want to approach.

 

The woods at the Northern part of Riverside park are a favorite camping area for many homeless folks. This is the same place the first Manhattan cache [GC9D] was placed, and it did not last.

 

If this group of young men wanted money, they would have made the cacher give it to them. They wanted to scare him out of the area and they succeeded.

 

Future geocachers should not have to wonder if they will be attacked in this area. And thrill seeking geocachers should not come here looking for encounters with muggers. I personally do not want to see anymore of this type of encounter happening in New York City, so I am politely asking that the cache be archived or moved to a safer location.

As someone who grew up a stone's throw from NYC and who has spent TONS of time in all five boroughs, including the seediest outlying sections and waterfront of all five boroughs, over the years, I must agree with your assessment that it would be unwise to assume that any of those parks, particularly Riverside, are very safe. However, from my perspective, that does not necessarily mean that the caches located in those spots should be archived, but rather, that the cache should bear an appropriately high Terrain rating (perhaps 4.5 or 5) and the cache listing page should bear a DANGER attribute icon and the Description section should include a warning about some of the hazards which might commonly be encountered. Elsewise, if we were to follow your line of reasoning wherein you ask that the caches be archived, then all caches which involve any element of danger and/or require high skill levels, such as scuba caches, caches which require caving or rock climbing or other extreme skills should also be archived, and that would not make much sense at all.

[+Woodbutcher68]

In my humble opinion, we don't need tougher, unenforcable laws against guns or crime, we need tougher judges and police to enforce the existing laws and dole out the proper punishment!

A slap on the wrist and back on the street doesn't deter crime.

It seems like the criminals have more rights than the law abiding citizens.

[+HaLiJuSaPa]

I’ve visited the city frequently over the last forty years. As BrianSnat points out, it’s a much safer place now than it was in the 70’s. (And, no, it’s not just Guiliani’s doing.) In the 60’s, I wouldn’t go into Central Park, much less Riverside or Morningside. New York is doing a great job with its parks!

 

I remember going on class trips as an elementary school kid in the 70's to museums, etc. where they would sometimes include going to Central Park and even as say a 10 year old or so thinking what disgusting, graffiti-laden playgrounds they had and why is our class going to this. The few times I've been to Central Park in the last few years, I'm amazed at the change! I think a lot of it has to do with the great work of the Central Park Conservancy.

 

I have kept quiet for a week about this to see if anyone else mentions the obvious urban facts here.

Since no one has, I have posted the following log for this cache:

 

This is cache is in a dangerous location, as I said in a post when it was first published.

 

I have lived in Manhattan for over 40 years. I grew up several blocks from this cache, and I am now raising my family on the Lower East Side. I helped clear my neighborhood of drug related activity in the 90s. And I have spent over 25 years shooting news video and film on the streets of NY.

 

I have placed over 20 geocaches in Manhattan and have always been careful to make sure they were not in a location where geocachers would have to compete with street folks to grab them -- so I know just how hard that is to do.

 

The following is based on my personal experience.

 

Riverside Park and Morningside Park have historically been havens for the homeless and drug dealers in part because they contain so many hiding places for many things. Central Park has less drug activity these days. Guilianni stopped a lot of blatant obvious lawlessness in the city, but came no where near eliminating drug related crime -- The streets and parks are pleasant to walk in again, but you must still be careful.

 

The stone walls in particular are favorite hiding places for drug stashes.

 

Drug dealers often employ groups of underage boys to act as runners, and to scare off anyone they don't want around. The dealers themselves are often nearby, but appear to be disinterested somewhat scary guys that you don't want to approach.

 

The woods at the Northern part of Riverside park are a favorite camping area for many homeless folks. This is the same place the first Manhattan cache [GC9D] was placed, and it did not last.

 

If this group of young men wanted money, they would have made the cacher give it to them. They wanted to scare him out of the area and they succeeded.

 

Future geocachers should not have to wonder if they will be attacked in this area. And thrill seeking geocachers should not come here looking for encounters with muggers. I personally do not want to see anymore of this type of encounter happening in New York City, so I am politely asking that the cache be archived or moved to a safer location.

 

I know we have to be realistic sometimes (thus perhaps the answer to the person who asked in another thread why no caches near Yankee Stadium), and I do agree with EVF that because drug dealers use stone walls to hide their "stash" that maybe that is not a good place to put caches in these parks, but I don't think we need to simply let the bad guys "win" either. I think it's similar to the idea of "terrain ratings", you caution in a description, etc. and the cachers chooses when and if to go. We have a quick and simple cache in a nice park in the northern Bronx that I do note one should not go to at night, but is completely safe in the daytime. I don't think we should not have a cache there. I learned of a decent size nature preserve in the northeast Bronx (one that is being "improved" by the city as well) that almost no one knows about and would normally think "unsafe" that I learned is not true either and hope later this spring to put a cache there and introduce people to this "hidden gem".

 

We recently (ironically with the help of the above quoter, who got the admins to re-open because the cache owner kept forgetting to) found a cache in Inwood Hill Park, on the northern end of Manhattan, which is actually closer to where we live (if you can find parking) than it is to "midtown". We would never think of going to this park and would've probably assumed (mostly wrongly) that it was "unsafe" were it not for this cache and going to check it out! We were amazed at the caves, nature trails, rock formations, etc. at a park in this location and we're sure that our "find log" convinced someone reading this to use the caves to create the "impossible": an almost "level 5" terrain cache in Manhattan that I'm sure will become legendary (we were thinking of doing a hide like this there too)!

 

In both cases, we went on a Saturday early afternoon when the park was very crowded with what obviously was a nice mosaic of folks from all classes, backgrounds, creeds, etc.; possibly because there is a Farmer's Market there that attracts people from beyond the immediate neighborhood (including us now once in awhile, again thanks to geocaching!). I'm sure if I went at 6am or maybe near sunset or certainly at night I'd be a lot more apprehensive, but I'd honestly feel that way about many parks in the suburbs as well! We have two caches in a very quiet park in a suburban area that I still put the "don't do at night" icon even though I don't think it is that unsafe at night!

 

Since I haven't mentioned it earlier and should be more "on topic", I do hope you recover nicely (the OP), am glad to hear your GPS is back, and hope it doesn't discourage you from future caching adventures at least in "better" parts of the City (we're happy to see all the hides EVF has done and hope to pick a day later this spring or summer where we tackle most of them).

Edited May 20, 2007 by HaLiJuSaPa