Hints asked for and given from non-owners of cache

[+Killerb]

Being the owner of over 30 caches I find that it bothers me when hints are given, to those that are seeking out caches, by anyone other than the owners of the cache. I try to vary my caches as far as difficulty goes, and when I put time and effort into a more difficult cache, as a challenge to fellow cachers, I expect that when it is found, the cacher would hold the secret to the cache to himself. It is my belief that the owner of the cache would be the only one to give hints and would do so in the cache page. I am in the habit of giving out additional hints only when; (1) the cache has been tested by experienced cachers for a period of time and cannot be located (2) the cache has had a previous FTF (3) a cacher has logged a DNF and details are given to me of what measures he or she has taken in their search

With discretion, I have even given out my cell number to those trying, for the second time to find a cache, but only after the above criteria has been met. Right or wrong, I have only very rarely given hints to caches other than my own, and then, only if those same standards have been met.

These are only my standards and opinions, but would be very interested in knowing of others. I do want to make it clear that I am not against combining ideas with others and forming teams to find or solve a cache.

Thanks for any input. KillerB

[+TrailGators]

Being the owner of over 30 caches I find that it bothers me when hints are given, to those that are seeking out caches, by anyone other than the owners of the cache. I try to vary my caches as far as difficulty goes, and when I put time and effort into a more difficult cache, as a challenge to fellow cachers, I expect that when it is found, the cacher would hold the secret to the cache to himself. It is my belief that the owner of the cache would be the only one to give hints and would do so in the cache page. I am in the habit of giving out additional hints only when; (1) the cache has been tested by experienced cachers for a period of time and cannot be located (2) the cache has had a previous FTF (3) a cacher has logged a DNF and details are given to me of what measures he or she has taken in their search

With discretion, I have even given out my cell number to those trying, for the second time to find a cache, but only after the above criteria has been met. Right or wrong, I have only very rarely given hints to caches other than my own, and then, only if those same standards have been met.

These are only my standards and opinions, but would be very interested in knowing of others. I do want to make it clear that I am not against combining ideas with others and forming teams to find or solve a cache.

Thanks for any input. KillerB

You should ask people do that in your cache page. I've done that for some puzzle caches. At some point the flood gates seem to open up so there's not much you can do except worry about something else...

[+Googling Hrpty Hrrs]

I generally don't call cachers about caches. I find the practice weird and intrusive. When I call a cacher it's to say hi, plan an outing, etc. I don't call cachers just about a cache. It's not that important.

 

That being said, I could care less if they call each other for hints about my cache. Isn't it about their fun as the finder, and not our fun as the cache owners? If they are still having fun by calling others, and the other folks don't mind, why would it matter to me?

 

Try thinking of it as their cache instead of yours, and I think you'll enjoy the giving part of putting out caches more.

[+StarBrand]

I know a few cachers that regularly make use of phone-a-friend help. Others that will call me as the owner for help. However, most seem to either cache in groups or go it alone.

 

I stopped worrying about others that give hints on my caches long ago. Nothing I can do to stop it so why worry about it. If somebody asks me about a cache that I have visited, I will either refer them to the cache owner or give a vague hint that only kicks them in a new direction. Rare to happen at any rate.

[+BlueDeuce]

Some people look for ways to make caches easier.

 

I still have people complain that one of my caches is a 1.6 mile walk, round trip. I was told that it would work just as well closer in.

 

I told them maybe they should place their own cache for people to find on the way to mine.

 

They agreed and placed it in the parking lot.

 

[Clan Riffster]

I've read in these forums that it's bad form for anyone but the owner to give hints for a particular cache, which is why I generally refrain from doing so. However, I don't apply this theology to any of my hides. I place them so folks can find them, and any means they employ to do so is OK with me. Something I often put on my puzzle cache pages is the offer to send the final coords to anyone who wants them.

[+DavidMac]

Around our area, it's become common practice to call others for hints on tough caches from the field (after a reasonable search, of course). I always try to reach the owner first, but if they're not available I'm not above calling previous finders if I know them and have their phone number.

 

Here's one thing to consider: it's one thing if a cache is in the neighborhood and I can return to try it again the following day; it's another matter if I have to drive 30 or 40 miles out of my way to return to the cache. In the latter case, It's very unlikely that I'll try the cache again; I just log my DNF and move on. Personally, if I'm not close to home and I see a tough cache that reads, "no hints until you log a DNF and email me for one", I usually skip it, because it's not worth my time if I think the search may just end up in a DNF.

 

If you don't want people sharing hints, feel free to say so on the cache page. Most people will honor the request, but there will always be a few people willing to give away the secret. In fact, there is a cache less than a mile from my workplace with such a requirement; it gets lots of logs from locals who can afford to make multiple trips, but very few visitors from out of town. I've even had several people ask me for help on it, but I've respected the owner's wishes by not giving it away.

Edited May 10, 2007 by DavidMac

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Being the owner of over 30 caches I find that it bothers me when hints are given, to those that are seeking out caches, by anyone other than the owners of the cache. I try to vary my caches as far as difficulty goes, and when I put time and effort into a more difficult cache, as a challenge to fellow cachers, I expect that when it is found, the cacher would hold the secret to the cache to himself. It is my belief that the owner of the cache would be the only one to give hints and would do so in the cache page. I am in the habit of giving out additional hints only when; (1) the cache has been tested by experienced cachers for a period of time and cannot be located (2) the cache has had a previous FTF (3) a cacher has logged a DNF and details are given to me of what measures he or she has taken in their search

With discretion, I have even given out my cell number to those trying, for the second time to find a cache, but only after the above criteria has been met. Right or wrong, I have only very rarely given hints to caches other than my own, and then, only if those same standards have been met.

These are only my standards and opinions, but would be very interested in knowing of others. I do want to make it clear that I am not against combining ideas with others and forming teams to find or solve a cache.

Thanks for any input. KillerB

You own your cache, you make the rules.

 

That said, you are bucking the trend. Most owners, in my experience, want their caches found.

 

In my area at least hints are freely given, we talk about caches at events, and have a widespread phone-a-friend network for just this purpose. In fact I was given an award by my state association, the Alabama Geocachers Association, for serving as a state-wide phone-a-friend as I have found the vast majority of caches in my state and about 1/4 of those in Tennessee.

 

Having cached in many states, I am also on a national phone-a-friend list where we can call on each other when we are traveling and need a hint. Except when an owner is known not to want a hint given we see no need for a DNF in an area we are not likely to return to.

 

Our habit, when asked about a cache, is to ask "How much do you want to know?" They will almost always respond "I don't want a give-away, just a bit of help". But if they have hunted it several times, are out of town or just want to know where it is, we'll tell them.

 

We have ONE owner that I am aware of out of 1000+ members who asks that ONE of his caches not be revealed, the rest he could care less. I have never heard another cacher ask that his hides be excluded.

 

The journey is the thing for most of us. But then, most of us won't use a phone-a-friend unless we really NEED one! Being a fairly communicative bunch we are rarely more than 2 degrees of separation from the cache owner... we either know them or know someone who has found it, so getting hints isn't difficult when we need them.

 

As far as posting hints in logs, I agree, that should remain a no-no... but if a cacher feels the need to ask another, why not (so long as the owner doesn't object)?

 

In your case put a note on the cache listing asking that hints and help not be given, because otherwise it is likely to be assumed that we can treat your cache as we treat others in this respect.

[+sbell111]

I don't have a problem with it.

 

If two cachers were working together to find a cache, you wouldn't have a problem with one of them helping the other. How is this any different?

[+Rockin Roddy]

We are on a phone-a-friend list through MiGO....many members are!

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

In my area (Maryland), "phone-a-friend", aka "dial-a-friend" is very commonplace and is a very much accepted practice. Having said that, I do not engage in making such calls myself, but then again, I am very selective about the caches which I will hunt and in fact, I hunt high terrain caches almost exclusively. On the other hand, I have noticed that my wife Sue (who is a far more active cache hunter than I) and all our geo-friends make such calls regularly. In fact, we receive at least one or two such calls here at our home very day of the year, and sometimes a higher frequency of calls on weekends and holidays.

 

Much as Ed (Alabama Rambler) has stated, the vast majority of such callers do NOT want the whole answer, i.e., they do not want to be told exactly where the cache is located, and rather, they just want a little help and moral support. To me, this is part and parcel of human social activities, and quite normal and quite harmless.

[+Renegade Knight]

It depends on the cache. I've hidden some that I want people to find the hard way. Not via the geocahers phone a friend network. Others I don't care about, I want them to see the spot and the cache is just the tool to do it.

 

When cachers short circuit the experience I intended for them I tend to archive the cache. Not much I can do about the phone a friend network.

[+wimseyguy]

I prefer to worry about things I can control in this life.

[+hikemeister]

I could care less how other people do or do not use hints and clues. Personally I like to find them myself without any help, because it makes it more fun. To each his own.

[Mr.Yuck]

In my area (Maryland), "phone-a-friend", aka "dial-a-friend" is very commonplace and is a very much accepted practice. Having said that, I do not engage in making such calls myself, but then again, I am very selective about the caches which I will hunt and in fact, I hunt high terrain caches almost exclusively. On the other hand, I have noticed that my wife Sue (who is a far more active cache hunter than I) and all our geo-friends make such calls regularly. In fact, we receive at least one or two such calls here at our home very day of the year, and sometimes a higher frequency of calls on weekends and holidays.

 

Much as Ed (Alabama Rambler) has stated, the vast majority of such callers do NOT want the whole answer, i.e., they do not want to be told exactly where the cache is located, and rather, they just want a little help and moral support. To me, this is part and parcel of human social activities, and quite normal and quite harmless.

 

In my area, phone-a-friend is pretty common, and believe me, my area is rather close to the OP's area. On top of being common, I'm going to say it was first introduced to me by one of the longest tenured cachers around in the area. Not that I myself use it much (if at all in the past year at least), and I'll echo Ed and Vinny in saying people usually want just a little help and moral support, not being told exactly where the cache is.

 

I'm thinking I've seen "called so-and-so for a little help" on some of my caches over the years (which are generally designed to be found), and didn't even think twice about it. Bottom line is, I guess you can't do anything about cachers giving cachers hints.

[Ann_Brush]

If the game is about a building caching community then hints and help from phone-a-friend etc is fine, even encouraged. If its about cache owners micro-managing their caches I guess all bets are off. In my limited experience cache owners want their caches found, and are generally forthcoming with tips and verification of coordinates etc.

[+sbell111]

At the end of the day, what does it matter? A few cachers don't get the experience as planned by the cache owner. Isn't that their loss?

[+Thrak]

Some people look for ways to make caches easier.

 

I still have people complain that one of my caches is a 1.6 mile walk, round trip. I was told that it would work just as well closer in.

 

I told them maybe they should place their own cache for people to find on the way to mine.

 

They agreed and placed it in the parking lot.

 

 

Wow. Not much of a walk to complain about. I do find it odd sometimes when a cache requires a hike into an unimproved area and then it's a micro. I just can't see why folks do that instead of putting a full-sized cache in such nice locations. However, I still enjoy the hike and the scenery so I still come out with a good experience. I can't really see a 1.6 mile round trip as something to complain about - especially if it's in a good area. People are too lazy sometimes.

[+geomann1]

At the end of the day, what does it matter? A few cachers don't get the experience as planned by the cache owner. Isn't that their loss?

 

Agreed, I put caches out for people to have fun, I could care less how they find it, although I would hope they take a legitinate stab at each. All I care about is that they take care with the cache and surroundings.

[+Skip_]

Personally, it doesn't bother me. Even if it did, there's nothing I could really do about it. I want people to find my cache. That's why I hid it. It's challenging, but I gave a decent hint for those who want it. The beauty of the game is you can play it however you want. If you never want to check hints on a cache page you don't have to. If you want to decode and read the hints ahead of time, that's okay too. If you want to bring a friend who has or hasn't found the cache along to help look, why not? What's the difference if someone gives you a hint in person at the cache site or by phone, or by email later?

 

If the cache hider specifically asks people not to give hints I wouldn't participate in it for that cache. I normally don't use hints at all if I can help it, but if I'm short on time and not having any luck, or if I'm just out of ideas after a while I might use one. I don't call for hints from cache sites, but don't have a problem if someone does.

[+Outspoken1]

Three thoughts:

 

First-I tend to go by the cache owners listing. If they indicate not to give out hints (my favorite is "don't spoil the find for the next cacher."), I will abide by their wishes.

 

Second-if the owner is unavailable or overwhelmed with emails, others can share some of the load. We have cachers in my area who have hidden 500+ caches. I have no idea how they keep up with maintenance, finding new locations, providing hints to puzzles and hints to their caches! So what if a previous finder helps. I usually work on the tried two or three times and still DNF.

 

Third-as a society we are growing increasingly isolated. I think it is great that cachers have formed telephone or email rings. I have several caching "friends" who I have yet to see, but every email brings a smile to my face. We tend to collaborate on difficult puzzles to get the coordinates to find the cache!!

 

If you think about it, geocaching is pretty much all volunteer. I actually surprised things do run so smoothly!

 

Take care,

Outspoken1

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

At the end of the day, what does it matter? A few cachers don't get the experience as planned by the cache owner. Isn't that their loss?

 

Agreed, I put caches out for people to have fun, I could care less how they find it, although I would hope they take a legitinate stab at each. All I care about is that they take care with the cache and surroundings.

Yep, I totally agree!

[+ve6dave]

Around our area we call it "Geocaching 911". I can't say that I haven't phoned Geocaching 911 or that I mind someone phoning me, the truth of the matter is, I would much prefer someone having a good experience when attempting one of my caches. Sometimes that just involves a nudge in the right direction, sometimes it ends up confirming that the cache has been muggled.

 

Interesting enough, at short while back, I just happened to call Geocaching 911 while looking for the access to the area of a cache. The owner of the cache that I was attempting indicated how to get through to the general area, which was fenced off, railway lines etc. if I were heading the direct route. It just so happened that he was about to call me on the Geocaching 911 line as he was attempting one of my newer caches and was encountering a few difficulties. So even though you may be caching alone, with the magic of science, there can be someone there with you (especially on those superlong hikes).

 

Though, sometimes where someone found it months before, may be totally different now. So at best any of the calls to ones "Geocaching Lifeline" is at best a nudge in the right direction. Have fun out there, it's just a game. Even my grandmother used to cheat at Crib, but we had fun playing with her all the same.

[+Totem Clan]

At the end of the day, what does it matter? A few cachers don't get the experience as planned by the cache owner. Isn't that their loss?

I have to agree with sbell.

 

When I place a cache it's there for folks to enjoy. If they want to find it by themselves, fine. If they want to find it as a group, fine. If they want a hint from me, fine. If they want a hint from a friend, fine. If they want a friend to hold their hand and walk them to the cache, fine. I don't care as long as they enjoyed the cache. If they walk way happy about the experience ,I've done what I set out to do when I placed the cache for them.

[+007BigD]

When someones starts spoutin off...I cover my ears and start yelling...LA LA LA LA LA LA!

 

There the ones that ruined the movie when you were a kid!!!!

 

I have had this happen once...I had a DNF and insted of a little hint, it was like...ITS RIGHT NEXT TO THE ???... now when I grab it at least I know where its at!!!...So youd think id be thankfull, which I was, but of rather had a subtle hint instead!

 

But theres been times when I wish I had a lifeline! I dont see a problem with gettin some help, but it does kinda defeat the purpose of a 5 star difficulty rated cache. I would say to make it a rule to offer subtle hints-No one wants to walk away with a DNF...and in the same hand no one with Master Caching Skills would want a clever hide handed to them. Its Yin and Yang.....Balance Grasshoppa!

 

Edit: To add We got 1 Lamp post hide here, my buddy has tried 3 times at it...Hes never seen it before, so he has NO IDEA!...All I would tell him was "You dont know, cause you aint cached in the city yet!"...He still has yet to find it!...OH and I told him its a pill bottle with Camo Duck Tape ...And yes theres bushes around!!!

Edited May 12, 2007 by 007BigD

[+HaLiJuSaPa]

Some people look for ways to make caches easier.

 

I still have people complain that one of my caches is a 1.6 mile walk, round trip. I was told that it would work just as well closer in.

 

I told them maybe they should place their own cache for people to find on the way to mine.

 

They agreed and placed it in the parking lot.

 

 

Is the terrain tough? Why we did one that long with a 4 and 2 year old walking (nice, flat, easy terrain) and they hardly complained, great fresh air and exercise!

 

In fact, recently (they are now almost 6 and 4), we did one that was a 3 mile round trip (again, easy terrain).

 

Actually, there is a park where we have a kid-oriented cache that is about 600 ft. from the parking, but then for a nice walk, we put a 2nd, tougher cache about 1/3 mile further down, so it's not a bad idea.

[+rdaines]

Requesting a hint after a concerted search (or two or three) either from the owner or a recent finder does not degrade the caching experience for me. Several factors come into play, one being gas at $3.00 a gallon, time is another, searching for a lost or muggled cache is frustrating and no fun. Requesting a hint from a finder after a DNF may also ferret out a faked find. In any case, asking for or providing hints doesn't bother me at all.

[+TexasGringo]

I have 8 caches out there and don't care if people give hints....they still have to get there and sign the log book. I just maintain them so when found, they are at the proper coordinates and there is a dry log and working pens.

 

Heck, people can send pictures of the cache in its hiding spot if they want. They still have to walk there and sign the log.

Edited May 13, 2007 by GURU4HIRE

[+Killerb]

I first would like to say thanks for all of the response to my comments of Hints given and asked for by cachers other than the cache owners. It sure looks lop sided, as far as the feelings go with fellow cachers. I guess being tucked away in the woods of NY and not realizing what the rest of the caching world thinks, I find myself at a loss for words. I almost feel like the bad guy and ashamed of bringing the subject up. But then again, that is what the Forms is all about. I must admit, there have been many times that if I had a number to call about a cache that I had spent quite some time on, I might have been very tempted to do so. I think that the Dial-A-Friend is a great idea, as long as it is used with some disgreation, and I agree it IS the trip that counts and to be successful at finding the cache is secondary.

Thanks for the insight and suggestions. KillerB

[+TexasGringo]

You Are Not considered the bad guy...that is what these forums are for...to get and exchange ideas.

[+Team GeoBlast]

Being the owner of over 30 caches I find that it bothers me when hints are given, to those that are seeking out caches, by anyone other than the owners of the cache. I try to vary my caches as far as difficulty goes, and when I put time and effort into a more difficult cache, as a challenge to fellow cachers, I expect that when it is found, the cacher would hold the secret to the cache to himself. It is my belief that the owner of the cache would be the only one to give hints and would do so in the cache page. I am in the habit of giving out additional hints only when; (1) the cache has been tested by experienced cachers for a period of time and cannot be located (2) the cache has had a previous FTF (3) a cacher has logged a DNF and details are given to me of what measures he or she has taken in their search

With discretion, I have even given out my cell number to those trying, for the second time to find a cache, but only after the above criteria has been met. Right or wrong, I have only very rarely given hints to caches other than my own, and then, only if those same standards have been met.

These are only my standards and opinions, but would be very interested in knowing of others. I do want to make it clear that I am not against combining ideas with others and forming teams to find or solve a cache.

Thanks for any input. KillerB

 

From reading this, I am assuming that you put some considerable effort into a clever cammo job or some other detail. Man, do I feel ya on this issue. This is a lot of work and I tend to agree with you, it's not good form for cachers that did not do the work to take it upon themselves to give out hints without your blessing. Why go through all the effort of making a clever cache when someone does this? I think there should be different shades of smileys for people that get unauthorized hints on my caches. As it is has been suggested, you can mention on the cache page that folks not give out hints but some will do it anyway. It has also been mentioned that you are powerless and I disagree with this.

 

This is probably not for everyone but when I think this behavior is getting out of hand, I don't make one cache, I make three. Each one of them different but that all can be hidden within a reasonable distance (4-5') from GZ. I will put out cache A and let a few people find it and once one of the known hint givers finds it, I go out and make Cache A a decoy and then hide Cache B. About 4-5 more finders.. I hide cache C. Once there's a ton of misinformation floating around I pick my favorite one and return the hide there. If possible I use the other two on other caches that I will hide late.

 

I've had people tell me that this isn't fair and I've very nicely asked them to think about the concept of fairness when I sometimes spend months preparing a cache.

[+sseegars]

TOUR GUIDES!

[+The Jester]

[+sseegars]

 

I think that folks that give away or accept the hints from others are not caching they are being led/leading on a guided tour.

[+Team Dromomania]

My input: Any camo on my caches are to fool the muggles. About 1/4 of my caches have been muggled at one time or other. I want my caches to be found. But many cachers enjoy the hunt so I limit hints on the listings to allow that challenge. However, if they ask for hints I freely give them in email or by phone before or after their first attempt. I don't mind at all if previous finders give others hints. If you take all my hides as a whole then about 6% of the logs are DNF's.

 

On the other hand a fair number of my hides have "surprises" at the find in either the camo or in how the cache is put together. I trust cachers not to give away those surprises so as to not spoil the fun of the find.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

TOUR GUIDES!

Yup, there is even a Waymarking category for us, Geocaching Tour Guides!

 

Some folks choose to cache alone, others do not.

 

Many cachers travel, and have limited time.

 

Visitors to my area may have flown in and do not have a car available. No problem, I live ten minutes from the airport - if you have a couple hours layover or are in town overnight I will pick you up and take you to whatever type of caches you like to find.

 

Someone may want to find the 'best' caches in an area.

 

There are any number of reasons why a geocacher may want a local to tour guide for them.

 

Tour guiding, however, does not equate to giving up the cache!

 

I know where the majority of the caches in my area are. I can drive to the access point faster than you can simply because I know the route. Once I get you to the cache area, however, it's up to you to make the find.

 

Mostly when tour guiding I don't even get out of the car.

 

If you need / want hints the above thread applies!

[+halffast]

I live 70 miles north of Spokane Wa and put my # on there phone-a-friend list so if anyone from that area is caching up here they can call me for hints if they need to.I have their list but have never used it to call anyone.Mainly because I dont have a cell phone.But after someone travels 70 miles I want them to find my caches.So far I have not had any calls asking for a hint.Its been well over a year since I gave them my number.

[Cracker.]

I saw this thread and just had to chime in.

In KillerB's defense, not that he needs any, I can understand his feelings.

KillerB is a legend in the region. His caches ARE well thought out, and he DOES want people to find them, but he likes people to EARN them.

However, he DOES put a lot of effort into his hides. Not just in how they are hidden, but where and why they are hidden. He is also the "king" of getting private landowners to open up areas for cachers. Out of his 34 hides, almost half are on private property.

 

He thinks his hides are too easy, and he does tend to rate the difficulty low. However, that doesnt last long, as experienced cachers will usually let him know if its rated too low within the first few days of being published.

So I can understand how he feels when many cachers find his caches quickly, with no help, yet others need many hints. As someone who has found many of his caches, I know it bothers me when I hear other cachers bragging about finding them, when I know they have only done so because they were practically told where it was...And its not even my cache...LOL

 

There are many cachers who make it a point to find ALL of his caches, once they have found one or two, because they are all so good.

Both Bruce and I are "stingy" with hints, but instead of giving one big hint, that lets you find the cache, we try to give little, ambiguous hints, to "lead" you to the cache...I figure its just enough to jumpstart someone's brain so it gives them the chance to really earn the find, before being actually led to or told where it is. Whats the point in that? It even bothers me when I am caching with another person or more, and they just pull the cache out, or do something that basically tells me where it is. It "spoils" the find for me, and sometimes, I wont even log it as a find, because I feel I didnt earn it.

 

I know Bruce feels the same way, so I can understand his concern about this issue. I also know Bruce is VERY approachable when asked for hints from his caches. I dont know how he keeps up with all the emails he gets from fellow cachers (not all for hints, of course.) He will email any cacher that leaves a nice log detailing their experiences on any of his caches, to thank them for taking the time and effort of finding it. He is very quick to fix any maintenance issues, or to check his caches if there have been any DNF's.

 

I have asked for hints from cache owners, and called other cachers for them. But I'm looking for A HINT, not a list of them, not so much of a hint that once I hear it, I know where the cache is without even looking again.

 

I have also been known to give out a hint or two on someone else's cache. Usually only a hint that was given me by the cache owner when I needed one.

 

But...on the otherhand, I guess some people play the game differently, and like everyone has stated here, I guess its pretty much something we have to live with.

[+Team GeoBlast]

I saw this thread and just had to chime in.

In KillerB's defense, not that he needs any, I can understand his feelings.

KillerB is a legend in the region. His caches ARE well thought out, and he DOES want people to find them, but he likes people to EARN them.

However, he DOES put a lot of effort into his hides. Not just in how they are hidden, but where and why they are hidden. He is also the "king" of getting private landowners to open up areas for cachers. Out of his 34 hides, almost half are on private property.

 

He thinks his hides are too easy, and he does tend to rate the difficulty low. However, that doesnt last long, as experienced cachers will usually let him know if its rated too low within the first few days of being published.

So I can understand how he feels when many cachers find his caches quickly, with no help, yet others need many hints. As someone who has found many of his caches, I know it bothers me when I hear other cachers bragging about finding them, when I know they have only done so because they were practically told where it was...And its not even my cache...LOL

 

There are many cachers who make it a point to find ALL of his caches, once they have found one or two, because they are all so good.

Both Bruce and I are "stingy" with hints, but instead of giving one big hint, that lets you find the cache, we try to give little, ambiguous hints, to "lead" you to the cache...I figure its just enough to jumpstart someone's brain so it gives them the chance to really earn the find, before being actually led to or told where it is. Whats the point in that? It even bothers me when I am caching with another person or more, and they just pull the cache out, or do something that basically tells me where it is. It "spoils" the find for me, and sometimes, I wont even log it as a find, because I feel I didnt earn it.

 

I know Bruce feels the same way, so I can understand his concern about this issue. I also know Bruce is VERY approachable when asked for hints from his caches. I dont know how he keeps up with all the emails he gets from fellow cachers (not all for hints, of course.) He will email any cacher that leaves a nice log detailing their experiences on any of his caches, to thank them for taking the time and effort of finding it. He is very quick to fix any maintenance issues, or to check his caches if there have been any DNF's.

 

I have asked for hints from cache owners, and called other cachers for them. But I'm looking for A HINT, not a list of them, not so much of a hint that once I hear it, I know where the cache is without even looking again.

 

I have also been known to give out a hint or two on someone else's cache. Usually only a hint that was given me by the cache owner when I needed one.

 

But...on the otherhand, I guess some people play the game differently, and like everyone has stated here, I guess its pretty much something we have to live with.

 

I didn't know this about the OP but I had pretty much guessed it. I've only encountered a handful of cachers that truly treat their caches like a preforming art and it is these people that keep me playing the game and they are the inspiration for my own hides. When someone puts that much time and energy into something for others to enjoy, it's got to be very hard to handle when someone takes it upon themselves to "tour guide" and spoil their gift.

 

Bruce, I may never have the opportunity to find one of your caches but I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you for what you do. I may be in the minority here but I agree with you 100%, it's my hope that you can focus on and appreciate those who do give your caches an honest effort and get the intended experience/performance.

 

If the opportunity presents itself, have an honest and heartfelt conversation with those who are giving your caches away. Review with them all that you had to do to make the cache available (I doubt they've really considered it in sum) and ask them not to do it. It's perfectly within your right to do so.

Edited May 15, 2007 by Team GeoBlast

[Cracker.]

Yes, Team geoblast, thats Bruce. The man is a "cache artist". He is inspiration for many local cachers. As much as we call him names, and give him grief over his difficult and tricky hides, and his "armchair caching" from Florida (we are in NY, but he is a snowbird), many, many of the best cachers around here look up to, or at least respect him for all he does for the local caching scene.

 

Even if someone doesnt agree with him, or like his hides, and he's had his share of people being PO'd at him, at least they should respect him for letting them know exactly what he thinks of the situation.

 

He really does enjoy reading long logs on his caches. Even the DNFs.

But he does likewise, and if a cache he finds is halfway worthy of being called a cache, he always leaves nice logs. He hates seeing people leave the short, "TFTC" type of logs on anyone's cache, not just his own.

 

I'm just hoping that anyone who reads this thread, and is the type to give hints, just be selective in the info you give out for someone's cache.

There is a big difference between a HINT and a SPOILER. And in doing so, you may be helping one person/team, and upsetting the cache owner, or previous finders who actually had to earn the right to log a find.

Just give some thought to it before giving away a cache find.

[+sbell111]

Yes, Team geoblast, thats Bruce. The man is a "cache artist". He is inspiration for many local cachers. As much as we call him names, and give him grief over his difficult and tricky hides, and his "armchair caching" from Florida (we are in NY, but he is a snowbird), many, many of the best cachers around here look up to, or at least respect him for all he does for the local caching scene.

 

Even if someone doesnt agree with him, or like his hides, and he's had his share of people being PO'd at him, at least they should respect him for letting them know exactly what he thinks of the situation.

 

He really does enjoy reading long logs on his caches. Even the DNFs.

But he does likewise, and if a cache he finds is halfway worthy of being called a cache, he always leaves nice logs. He hates seeing people leave the short, "TFTC" type of logs on anyone's cache, not just his own.

 

I'm just hoping that anyone who reads this thread, and is the type to give hints, just be selective in the info you give out for someone's cache.

There is a big difference between a HINT and a SPOILER. And in doing so, you may be helping one person/team, and upsetting the cache owner, or previous finders who actually had to earn the right to log a find.

Just give some thought to it before giving away a cache find.

Unless we are talking about ALRs, the only thing one needs to do to 'earn the right to log' a cache is sign the logbook.

 

I honestly don't understand how a cache owner is affected if someone gets a hint (or a spoiler) on his/her cache. If the seeker ends up bypassing some great experience that the cache owner has built into it, then the seeker misses out on it, but the owner is really not affected, in my opinion.

[+FireRef]

I have a rather difficult puzzle cache that I placed a while back. I found that once someone solved it, about 15 people seem to have found it within the next week. That seems to indicate that they probably worked together somewhat (and some of the logs indicated that as well). Nothing I can do about it. I don't know if I was looking to have everyone do it independently, or let people work together, but I guess I really don't have control over this anyway, so I guess what happened is fine by me - they hunted my cache, so I'm happy.

[+rdaines]

Like a previous poster said, I want my caches to be found and for the finder to have whatever experience they take away from it. I take no joy from a DNF. I provide hints and have asked for them and don't feel it degrades the experience one bit. Just recently I had a DNF and the next visitor found the cache. I requested a hint and was horrified to learn of where the cache might be. That one may remain a DNF and I'll spend my time elsewhere.

[+Wheelygood]

I am familiar with the OP and can attest to the creativity and difficulty of his hides. We are fortunate to have his (and a few others) influence for well thought out and crafted caches in this area. I am also guilty (on a limited basis) of doing what he wishes we would not do. I did not know it then, now I do. For the most part I do not mind the use of phone a friend on my caches and I agree most times subtle hints are all that is asked for.

 

Some here say it is about the journey. I agree, so enjoy the journey that ended in a DNF, congratulate the hider for doing a good job, post a log about your experience and go look for another cache.

 

To those that feel caches are meant to be found you are correct, but how many caches have you searched for that have not been found? When I first started playing this game and I had placed what I thought was a tricky cache I remember feeling a little bummed when it was found until another cacher reminded me a cache really can not be appreciated unless it can be found. On a couple of my caches I would rather have just a few people appreciate it than a lot due to help being given. If you can not find the cache go look for the next one.

 

I agree phone a friend makes the community more connected. I imagine some of the phone a friend lists are pretty long and you do not know everyone that is on it. I wonder of those that use the phone do they reach out to the cache owner first. I also think the phoning just adds to our instant gratification mentality. Why not wait until you can contact the owner?

 

Some ask how the owner will be affected if help is given. Same way you will be if you do not find the cache. Considering the vast number of caches that are generally available to find, so what that you did not find it while you where there. Maybe you will return some day, maybe not.

 

If cache listings had an icon for no phone a friend, would you abide by it by not helping if asked or by not asking?

 

Ultimately, it boils down to are you willing to not add a cache to your found it list.

[+Miragee]

I want my caches to be found, and when I look for a cache, I want to find it . . . especially if the hike has been strenuous or challenging. I really hope my caches are easy to find, and if there is any question, I'll include a detailed hint. For me, fooling people and making them return to a place they have already been is not part of the game.

 

If that is part of the game for other hiders, and if I have DNF'd their cache, I might not ever return to find it . . . but that's just me . . . and gas is very expensive out here ($3.49/gallon).

[+Gus]

Hints and clues are fine, but I have a hide in a rock wall and someone thought they should form an arrow out of small rocks on the ground pointing out the cache to others. Personally I believe cachers should be able to enjoy the hunt as the cache owner intended, and if they still have trouble finding it they can decrypt the hints, phone a friend, etc.

[+Team GeoBlast]

Yes, Team geoblast, thats Bruce. The man is a "cache artist". He is inspiration for many local cachers. As much as we call him names, and give him grief over his difficult and tricky hides, and his "armchair caching" from Florida (we are in NY, but he is a snowbird), many, many of the best cachers around here look up to, or at least respect him for all he does for the local caching scene.

 

Even if someone doesnt agree with him, or like his hides, and he's had his share of people being PO'd at him, at least they should respect him for letting them know exactly what he thinks of the situation.

 

He really does enjoy reading long logs on his caches. Even the DNFs.

But he does likewise, and if a cache he finds is halfway worthy of being called a cache, he always leaves nice logs. He hates seeing people leave the short, "TFTC" type of logs on anyone's cache, not just his own.

 

I'm just hoping that anyone who reads this thread, and is the type to give hints, just be selective in the info you give out for someone's cache.

There is a big difference between a HINT and a SPOILER. And in doing so, you may be helping one person/team, and upsetting the cache owner, or previous finders who actually had to earn the right to log a find.

Just give some thought to it before giving away a cache find.

Unless we are talking about ALRs, the only thing one needs to do to 'earn the right to log' a cache is sign the logbook.

 

I honestly don't understand how a cache owner is affected if someone gets a hint (or a spoiler) on his/her cache. If the seeker ends up bypassing some great experience that the cache owner has built into it, then the seeker misses out on it, but the owner is really not affected, in my opinion.

 

I suppose you are right, it is the person that doesn't get the intended experience that is the real loser in all this. However, it's the person that takes it upon themselves to "give it way" that kinda makes me wonder if it is worth going through all the extra effort sometimes. I am not saying that giving out an unauthorized nudge isn't ok, especially if the seeker is really thrashing about and stopped having fun. But if you spent hours out in your woodshop milling a perfect replica of a ornamental fence post and made a cache out of it. And someone just happens to mention something like; "when you are out there.. you might want to check the third fence post from the corner." That's just plain wrong. If at all possible I think it should be the owner doing the nudging too but in some situations that is not possible either.

 

A good caching skill is the "art of the nudge" . When this is mastered, the delivery leaves the seeker feeling like he accomplished something and the hider didn't feel like he's wasting his time putting the cache out.

Edited May 17, 2007 by Team GeoBlast

[Cracker.]

 

I suppose you are right, it is the person that doesn't get the intended experience that is the real loser in all this. However, it's the person that takes it upon themselves to "give it way" that kinda makes me wonder if it is worth going through all the extra effort sometimes. I am not saying that giving out an unauthorized nudge isn't ok, especially if the seeker is really thrashing about and stopped having fun. But if you spent hours out in your woodshop milling a perfect replica of a ornamental fence post and made a cache out of it. And someone just happens to mention something like; "when you are out there.. you might want to check the third fence post from the corner." That's just plain wrong. If at all possible I think it should be the owner doing the nudging too but in some situations that is not possible either.

 

A good caching skill is the "art of the nudge" . When this is mastered, the delivery leaves the seeker feeling like he accomplished something and the hider didn't feel like he's wasting his time putting the cache out.

 

This is what I'm talking about...

Both Bruce and I get grief for giving out minimal hints at first, a little at a time....I know at the time, and when we first give them, cachers are a little upset because they dont get it at first, but when they do find the cache, I am sure they appreciate it since we made them think about it, and they still get to feel they "earned" the find...They usually dont admit it, but I'm sure they feel better about being "nudged" than basically being "led" to the cache. I know I do....This is one reason why I DONT like group caching, outside of our small two or three person group. We all know enough once someone spots the cache, or is pretty sure, that person will just keep looking, and move around in a big circle for a few moments before calling "Huckle"...so it gives each successive finder the opportunity to find the cache on equal terms, with no spoilers, and a chance at that sense of accomplishment.

[+rdaines]

No shortage of caches to be found, a DNF only hurts until for find the next one (at least for me). If the owner won't provide a hint or bans finders from giving a hint then OK. Who really cares. What's the point of making a cache that people can't find, like a camo micro shoved so far up a tree stump that a termite couldn't find it. Or a micro hiding in a pile of rocks that would takes weeks to sort through. This is fun? Not for me so I move on. There are plenty of complaints about LPCs but what about nasty micros? We all know a good, creative hide when we see it, the ones that make us smile with appreciation. In most cases that smile is not diminished for me because of a hint. And, yeah, gas is expensive.

[+wimseyguy]

The exchange with TGB and cracker made me chuckle. I have one geopal on my PAF list that I have to remind NOT to give me a silver platter hint, but just a nudge in the right direction.