I know it's not a benchmark...

[+Hoosier_Daddy]

While working near in McCordsville, IN (just east of Indianapolis), in Hancock county, I noticed a large concrete post, perhaps 6"x6" square (I'm going off of memory here), standing approximately 4' above ground. Now, in these parts, those are mainly old fence posts, or perhaps a ROW monument, but this one was stamped "Land Line" on the side. The odd thing about it is that is in the ROW of a railroad. McCordsville is an older town, and the part of town I saw this in is very close to where the town was formed. I asked my boss, an LS about it, and he said that he had seen similar posts up north, in Ft. Wayne in more rural areas, and the story he had heard was that they marked land that was growing plants for food for the Union troops in the Civil War, and was used as a way of saying, "Hey! Don't fight here! I'm growing your food on this land!". Whereas McCordsville does have a lot of farmland nearby, this was just on the south side of an east/west running railroad that has been there for close to 100 years, or more, if I'm not mistaken. Just south of this marker is a small road, and then south of that are some houses and business that, if I recall from my plat research for this area, were among the original parcels split off for the new town. It doesn't seem likely to me that this is one of those marker posts my boss remembered from up north, nor is it on, or near a section line, or any line that would split a section up. The fact that it has been left intact in the area of the railroad would suggest that it holds some sort of importance, but I am at a loss. I have not driven up and down every road in McCordsville, but I have been up and down many of them, and have never seen another one.

 

Any ideas? Sorry I don't have a photo of the post. I didn't have my camera when I spotted it. I do get out there on occasion, so if no one out there has any ideas (which I highly doubt after reading some of these posts ), I'll try to get a photo uploaded.

Edited May 9, 2007 by Hoosier_Daddy

[Team Fawlty]

Do you have coords?

 

Brendan

[+Hoosier_Daddy]

Do you have coords?

 

Brendan

 

I don't have the exact coordinates since I didn't have my GPS with me at the time. Based off of Google Earth, the approximate location is below:

 

Lat 39.897538°

Long -85.918181°

 

If you go on Google Earth, and follow Pendleton Pike (Rt 36) north east out of Indianapolis, it eventually crosses over N 600 W in McCordsville. Just north of that intersection is N Railroad St. The marker is just east of THAT intersection between the pavement of Railroad St. and the actual railroad running there. For reference, the section lines here are along N 600 W, and W 800 N.

 

Judging by the extreme lack of responses to my posting, I see that I may very well have to make a trip out there this weekend to snap a few photos...

Edited May 10, 2007 by Hoosier_Daddy

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

I don't have the exact coordinates since I didn't have my GPS with me at the time. Based off of Google Earth, the approximate location is below:

 

Lat 39.897538°

Long -85.918181°

 

If you go on Google Earth, and follow Pendleton Pike (Rt 36) north east out of Indianapolis, it eventually crosses over N 600 W in McCordsville. Just north of that intersection is N Railroad St. The marker is just east of THAT intersection between the pavement of Railroad St. and the actual railroad running there. For reference, the section lines here are along N 600 W, and W 800 N.

 

Judging by the extreme lack of responses to my posting, I see that I may very well have to make a trip out there this weekend to snap a few photos...

If Google Earth uses the same quality ortho-photos as Google Maps for that locale, the coordinates you can pull out should be significantly better than your GPS. This assumes you knew where you were when you look at the picture (an important caveat). My experience is that with good photos at the highest resolution you can expect accuracy approaching 1 meter.

 

Here's the Google Maps rendition of your coordinates: Google Maps

 

Looks pretty good to me. I would say if you were where you think you were, that picture should almost show your post. Can you see it there? I'm not sure where to look. Is it that little blip on the other side of the tracks which is casting a shadow (just east of due south of the green arrow marker where the grass ends and the ballast begins)? That would be about where your description puts it, but your coordnates are displaced to the wrong side of the tracks.

 

Edit I just put a marker there - is this the place? Google Maps (My Maps)

Edited May 10, 2007 by Papa-Bear-NYC

[CallawayMT]

I don't have the exact coordinates since I didn't have my GPS with me at the time. Based off of Google Earth, the approximate location is below:

 

Lat 39.897538°

Long -85.918181°

 

If you go on Google Earth, and follow Pendleton Pike (Rt 36) north east out of Indianapolis, it eventually crosses over N 600 W in McCordsville. Just north of that intersection is N Railroad St. The marker is just east of THAT intersection between the pavement of Railroad St. and the actual railroad running there. For reference, the section lines here are along N 600 W, and W 800 N.

 

Judging by the extreme lack of responses to my posting, I see that I may very well have to make a trip out there this weekend to snap a few photos...

If Google Earth uses the same quality ortho-photos as Google Maps for that locale, the coordinates you can pull out should be significantly better than your GPS. This assumes you knew where you were when you look at the picture (an important caveat). My experience is that with good photos at the highest resolution you can expect accuracy approaching 1 meter.

 

Here's the Google Maps rendition of your coordinates: Google Maps

 

Looks pretty good to me. I would say if you were where you think you were, that picture should almost show your post. Can you see it there? I'm not sure where to look. Is it that little blip on the other side of the tracks which is casting a shadow (just east of due south of the green arrow marker where the grass ends and the ballast begins)? That would be about where your description puts it, but your coordnates are displaced to the wrong side of the tracks.

 

Edit I just put a marker there - is this the place? Google Maps (My Maps)

 

PBNYC,

 

I just want to caution you on thinking that these photos are that accurate. In a lot of places, yes you are correct that you can get a fairly accurate position, but it all depends on how well that particular area was controlled. There are many places that are off by 50 - 100' in correct location. Check out this example:

 

Which road is Correct?

 

If you look at this area there is a distortion of possibly 40-60', if you compare the road as being aproximately 20' wide and there is that much more separation between the two.

 

Two different seasons where these two images come together and not controlled correctly on one or both.

 

CallawayMT

[+Hoosier_Daddy]

I don't have the exact coordinates since I didn't have my GPS with me at the time. Based off of Google Earth, the approximate location is below:

 

Lat 39.897538°

Long -85.918181°

 

If you go on Google Earth, and follow Pendleton Pike (Rt 36) north east out of Indianapolis, it eventually crosses over N 600 W in McCordsville. Just north of that intersection is N Railroad St. The marker is just east of THAT intersection between the pavement of Railroad St. and the actual railroad running there. For reference, the section lines here are along N 600 W, and W 800 N.

 

Judging by the extreme lack of responses to my posting, I see that I may very well have to make a trip out there this weekend to snap a few photos...

If Google Earth uses the same quality ortho-photos as Google Maps for that locale, the coordinates you can pull out should be significantly better than your GPS. This assumes you knew where you were when you look at the picture (an important caveat). My experience is that with good photos at the highest resolution you can expect accuracy approaching 1 meter.

 

Here's the Google Maps rendition of your coordinates: Google Maps

 

Looks pretty good to me. I would say if you were where you think you were, that picture should almost show your post. Can you see it there? I'm not sure where to look. Is it that little blip on the other side of the tracks which is casting a shadow (just east of due south of the green arrow marker where the grass ends and the ballast begins)? That would be about where your description puts it, but your coordnates are displaced to the wrong side of the tracks.

 

Edit I just put a marker there - is this the place? Google Maps (My Maps)

 

Papa Bear,

 

Honestly, it has been a few weeks since I saw the post. After asking around the office, and with some local friends of mine, I sort of forgot about it, until I got back on these forums the other day.

 

But to get to your question, that marker you put on Google Maps looks pretty good based on my memory. If that's not it, you're probably not off by more than 100' or so. It may be in those trees to the east a bit. You certainly are on the correct side of the tracks, though.

 

Interestingly enough, I mentioned this post to another friend of mine today, and he suggested that it was perhaps a marker for the railroad company for a buried cable, or communications line, perhaps with markers spread out every mile or so. I have never heard of such a thing, but I am by no means an expert on such things. Do you think there is any possibility that he was on to something? Whatever it is, it isn't modern, that's for sure.

 

Now that I've sparked some thought here, and apparently there is no immediate definite answer, I will try to get out there this weekend to get some more information and some photos.

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

PBNYC,

 

I just want to caution you on thinking that these photos are that accurate. In a lot of places, yes you are correct that you can get a fairly accurate position, but it all depends on how well that particular area was controlled. There are many places that are off by 50 - 100' in correct location. Check out this example:

 

Which road is Correct?

 

If you look at this area there is a distortion of possibly 40-60', if you compare the road as being aproximately 20' wide and there is that much more separation between the two.

 

Two different seasons where these two images come together and not controlled correctly on one or both.

 

CallawayMT

Your caution is well taken. But I have noticed a number of case particularly in urban areas where the control is excellent. In one case you could see the spot in the grass where a tri-station was located. In other cases like in northern Maine, it can be way off.

 

But the point was the pictures are so good in some cases that you can practically see the thing, especially a 6"x6"x4' concrete post that would leave a shadow. In a way it's darn right scary. Of course the control is something else. I would never depend on the control, but today's mapping technology from Google and others sure is impressive.

[+d-town cachers]

hey hd,

 

i haven't really been in this forum until today, but i am a land surveyor in indaianpolis, and have worked up in mccordsville on many occasions. though, i admit i have not seen a marker like that that i can recall. that is interesting for sure, and i might try and drive by it tonight when i'm up in noblesville. hmmm...

 

offhand i would be inclined to lean towards the railroad theory, but there is a lot of history in that area, as the cemetery will attest to. thanks for the info on this, i'm intrigued.

 

{ afterthought }

 

after reading back through something hit me and made me think possibly it could be marking maybe like an old power line easement. i dunno, i'll post again if i get a chance to drive by it tonight.

Edited May 12, 2007 by d-town cachers

[+Hoosier_Daddy]

Ok, guys, I got over to McCordsville today and snapped a few photos. I also did a little (very little) online research with some of the newer information I got.

 

I estimate this thing being about 20' or so from the southernmost rail here. There are two sets of rails.

 

Here is the view I got from the road that initially piqued my interest (south face):

 

After getting out and walking around, I noticed this from the west side:

 

 

And just for size reference... (it is about 3-4' tall, BTW)

 

 

I did notice some older pink surveyor's ribbon at the base of this monument, as if it had been marked previously. I did some research on the lettering on the side, and it turns out it stands for the Cleveland Cincinnati Chicago and St. Louis Railway, which, from what I can gather, was (is?) a fairly major railroad beginning in the mid 1800's. Perhaps this is one of their old ROW markers? The wording "Land Line" doesn't seem right for that, though. I did drive up the road a few miles, and didn't see any more of these (none immediately noticable doing 50 mph, at least)

 

So there you have it! Fresh photos of the mystery post! Any thoughts now?

[+Hoosier_Daddy]

I don't have the exact coordinates since I didn't have my GPS with me at the time. Based off of Google Earth, the approximate location is below:

 

Lat 39.897538°

Long -85.918181°

 

If you go on Google Earth, and follow Pendleton Pike (Rt 36) north east out of Indianapolis, it eventually crosses over N 600 W in McCordsville. Just north of that intersection is N Railroad St. The marker is just east of THAT intersection between the pavement of Railroad St. and the actual railroad running there. For reference, the section lines here are along N 600 W, and W 800 N.

 

Judging by the extreme lack of responses to my posting, I see that I may very well have to make a trip out there this weekend to snap a few photos...

If Google Earth uses the same quality ortho-photos as Google Maps for that locale, the coordinates you can pull out should be significantly better than your GPS. This assumes you knew where you were when you look at the picture (an important caveat). My experience is that with good photos at the highest resolution you can expect accuracy approaching 1 meter.

 

Here's the Google Maps rendition of your coordinates: Google Maps

 

Looks pretty good to me. I would say if you were where you think you were, that picture should almost show your post. Can you see it there? I'm not sure where to look. Is it that little blip on the other side of the tracks which is casting a shadow (just east of due south of the green arrow marker where the grass ends and the ballast begins)? That would be about where your description puts it, but your coordnates are displaced to the wrong side of the tracks.

 

Edit I just put a marker there - is this the place? Google Maps (My Maps)

 

Oh, BTW, after going out there today, I am pretty sure that the little post casting a shadow that you marked, is indeed the post I am referring to.

[+Black Dog Trackers]

There might be another post like that near LA0431.

 

From poking around the internet, it seems that "land line" is a synonym of "property line". It must be indicating the position of the property line of the railroad inscribed on it.

[+grn beret 2b]

I most definately am not an expert at this kind of thing, but looking at the pics you put up, it seems to me that the railway could have been marking a property line as they prepared to put the tracks through here so that they wouldn't have to worry about legal disputes over land ownership. However, it doesnt make sense to me that there was only the one...

Just my 2 cents.

 

GB2B

[+Shorelander]

I'm guessing this post I found right next to the commuter rail station in North Billerica is a similar right of way marker. There was also one on an abandoned spur nearby.

[68-eldo]

I'm guessing this post I found right next to the commuter rail station in North Billerica is a similar right of way marker. There was also one on an abandoned spur nearby.

 

I have to disagree. That looks like a whistle sign. They were placed near a grade crossing to tell the engineer to blow the crossing signal with the whistle.

[mloser]

A "W" on a post usually indicates a whistle post, but it depends where it is located. They are usually a few hundred feet from a grade crossing, depending on the anticipated speed of trains in that area. I have never seen a cast concrete one though. It would be just a few feet from the tracks also. Is that ballast in the picture?

Edited June 4, 2007 by mloser

[+shorbird]

Cast concrete whistle posts are very common in NJ. Guess it depends where you are...

[+Shorelander]

A "W" on a post usually indicates a whistle post, but it depends where it is located. They are usually a few hundred feet from a grade crossing, depending on the anticipated speed of trains in that area. I have never seen a cast concrete one though. It would be just a few feet from the tracks also. Is that ballast in the picture?

A quick perusal of the Wikipedia entry for whistle posts filled me in on what they are - I'm guessing you're right. That is ballast, although it's slightly farther from the tracks than that. (I'd guess it could have been moved a few yards from the rails during construction of the longer station platform.) The other one I saw was closer to a grade crossing, but this one's right before a bridge over a road. I'd say it is at N 42°35.547' W 071°16.838' using the Google. Could be a remnant of when it was a grade crossing or regarding the spur up ahead?

[+EnigmaLIX]

The W on the post is a whistle post to signal the engineer to blow for a grade crossing. The CCC&StL used concrete or carved limestone posts almost exclusively. The railroad was known as the Big Four until it was merged into the New York Central. I am not sure of the Land Line designation but I will consult with a few of the historians at the Whitewater Valley Railroad which is also a ex Big Four line and see what I can come up with.

[mloser]

It wouldn't have anything to do with a spur, just roads. and would not be likely to have been left in place if a grade crossing was replaced with a bridge. I looked at Google and didn't see anything looking like a grade crossing either. Maybe it was put there as a historic piece. It is a mystery to me!

[68-eldo]

It wouldn't have anything to do with a spur, just roads. and would not be likely to have been left in place if a grade crossing was replaced with a bridge. I looked at Google and didn't see anything looking like a grade crossing either. Maybe it was put there as a historic piece. It is a mystery to me!

 

Now that I think about it the whistle post for grade crossings that I’ve seen were marked with WX. This one is marked with only the W. Could it be for a different signal?

[+Shorelander]

It wouldn't have anything to do with a spur, just roads. and would not be likely to have been left in place if a grade crossing was replaced with a bridge. I looked at Google and didn't see anything looking like a grade crossing either. Maybe it was put there as a historic piece. It is a mystery to me!

 

Now that I think about it the whistle post for grade crossings that I’ve seen were marked with WX. This one is marked with only the W. Could it be for a different signal?

According to Wikipedia, the X is for multiple grade crossings.

[mloser]

Shorelander, that is correct. Wx is used where there are multiple grade crossings in a row. The engineer is required to know how many crossings and how to time the horn blowing.

[68-eldo]

It wouldn't have anything to do with a spur, just roads. and would not be likely to have been left in place if a grade crossing was replaced with a bridge. I looked at Google and didn't see anything looking like a grade crossing either. Maybe it was put there as a historic piece. It is a mystery to me!

 

Now that I think about it the whistle post for grade crossings that I’ve seen were marked with WX. This one is marked with only the W. Could it be for a different signal?

According to Wikipedia, the X is for multiple grade crossings.

 

You learn something every day.

 

Thanks

[+Klemmer]

Huh. I knew about the "W", and saw a "WX" not long ago.... I guessed it wasn't the abbreviation I was familiar with (WX = Weather in aviation). Indeed, learn something every day! And more on this site than most anywhere else.

[+EnigmaLIX]

I just got a clarification from a CCC&StL historian. This post is a property line marker and also they were used as benchmarks by the railroad. They were located at one time approx every 10 miles along the line or at any major property changes. IE Land that was purchased by the railroad vs land that was granted by the government. Most of the records of the CCC&StL are long gone so there is probably no way of knowing what this marker signified.

Edited June 7, 2007 by EnigmaLIX