Galileo update

[+kbootb]

The BBC site has an update on the latest position with the Galileo system. It doesn't look positive.

 

Perhaps we are going to be faced with a huge bill?

 

How much would you pay to hunt the tupperware?

[Edgemaster]

Don't worry, the GPS system will still exist (providing the US Army doesnt re-enable selective availablility)

[+wizard1974uk]

This is already being discussed here:

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=39933

[+Kryten]

It's always easier for the military to justify this kind of expenditure.

 

"We need it to aim our nuclear missiles"

 

always works better than.

 

"We need it to make Tom Tom work better and er all sorts of other cool stuff that we havn't thought of yet.

[+The Blorenges]

Very interesting article on Radio 4 'You and Yours' 12:30 Monday lunchtime, 1st October about Galileo and GPS and what was happening. Lots of input from various experts including the the people trying to make it work! I think you can get the program on BBC Radio 'Listen again' ..... I've just tried but I am at a customer's at the moment and they have thoughtfully blocked the BBC radio website so I can't check.

Chris

[Edgemaster]

Yep, here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/ra...youandyours_mon

[+scottpa100]

I hope, however it ends up happening, that the European ends up going ahead. Partly because the Europeans have already said that it will be for civilian use and civilian gain. Not so exciting you may think, but imagine if a big ol' nasty war did take place. A massive massive war - the US could just reign in its GPS system. Which it is entitled to do so - it is its own system! The European, whilst having extra sensitivity for armed forces, would still continue to work as it was designed primarily from the outset as a civilian system for civilian gain.

 

Though - I can see the European tax payer picking up the tab...

[+jerryo]

<snip>imagine if a big ol' nasty war did take place. A massive massive war - the US could just reign in its GPS system. Which it is entitled to do so - it is its own system! The European, whilst having extra sensitivity for armed forces, would still continue to work<snip>

Mmmm, Just what I’ll be thinking of doing when there’s a cloud of plutonium 239 floating around the countryside: searching for Tupperware. At least it’ll be visible in the dark.

[+scottpa100]

Mmmm, Just what I’ll be thinking of doing when there’s a cloud of plutonium 239 floating around the countryside: searching for Tupperware. At least it’ll be visible in the dark.

 

Yeah - no head torches needed. What with the glowing tupperware, glowing trees, glowing fences and so on and so on....

[+Vodor and Scorsby]

Its all very well joking about this sort of thing but just think about the financial crisis that will come to the people who make those cute little glow in the dark geocoins...... Its will be a sad day.......

 

Edited October 5, 2007 by Vodor

[+The Blorenges]

Yes, Galileo is coming.......Latest news on the next satellite launches. But don't postpone that cache hunt just yet, you'll have a loooooong wait.

 

Chris (MrB)

[+JeremyR]

I'm a little confused about the supposed compatibility between Galileo and GPS. Are they compatible to the extent that their signals are analogous and once up there, they'll essentially become part of a larger constellation of satellites or are there enough differences that firmware upgrades and/or new GPS units will be needed to use the new system once it's online?

 

I suspect the latter but only because I'm a cynic and when I hear talk of international government cooperating with each other for the benefit of the masses, I think O RLY?

[Deceangi]

Yes they are comparable, consider Galileo to be the next generation of the US GPS network, only under European Civilian control. The next generation of the US GPS Network will be the follow on generation to Galileo.

 

The atomic clocks in Galileo's Satellites are 10 times more accurate time wise than the current GPS satellites. This in part results in a higher accuracy.

 

There will be Multiple levels of user, General use will be free and offer down to about 1m. Critical application will be free but require additional equipment. Then there will be subscription only services. One difference is that as it's European civilian and not US military there will be no SA functionality over Europe any more.

 

And No there will be no need to upgrade equipment to use it, the two test satellites already prove that when you are in a location to receive the signal.

 

Deci

[+JeremyR]

Ta Dave

[+The Blorenges]

Your GPS won't pick up the signal until the network is operational. During the testing phase as they launch each satellite there is a signal being broadcast but you'd need specialised equipment to pick it up.

 

Chris (MrB)

[+The Forester]

At last, the EU Commission has awarded the Billion Euro contracts for the production of the first 14 Galileo satellites.

 

Sure, the project is four years late and four billion Euros over budget. No surprises there then.

 

Sure, the Murricanes threw a hissy fit and tossed their rattle out of the pram when they realised that the US military chokehold on the GPS monopoly was not only being broken but is to be broken by a vastly superior quality product. No surprises there then.

 

Sure, the Russians are miffed that their Glonass, which was massively better that the US NavStar GPS in the 1980s, is now decrepit and failed to make the transition from the 20th to the 21st century.

 

Sure it'll take four years from now for the Galileo system to be up and running. Sure, they said the same thing four years ago.

 

The really big news is that the contracts have now been awarded and the technocrats are in the driving seat.

 

That's good news for all GPS users, all over the world.

[+smstext]

thats brilliant news, will ALL gps's benefit or just ones with WAAS?

[+agentmancuso]

Though - I can see the European tax payer picking up the tab...

 

If it's worth having, let's pay for it.

[+Happy Humphrey]

Would anyone care to explain the difference between Galileo and the existing EGNOS system that we're accustomed to using? Is it just more accurate?

[+The Blorenges]

It will in theory be much more accurate than the current system. It will also be compatible with our present GPS receivers (hopefully). But until it is tested and operational we don't know the details. I'm sure someone will be along soon to break down the details of the L1 and L2 frequencies and explain exactly how it will operate.

 

EGNOS is just part of the existing system to provide an overlay of ground stations which improves the current signal accuracy over Western Europe. WAAS is the US equivalent of EGNOS and does the same thing but over the US continent.

 

Galileo will be a different network of satellites to the current one provided by the Americans and be independant (hopefully). It means if the US decides to turn theirs off we'll have one of our own

 

Chris (MrB)

Edited January 10, 2010 by The Blorenges

[+Lost in Space]

The free service, to you and I, will offer sub-metre accuracy.

(Takes all the fun out of the sport)

Edited January 10, 2010 by Lost in Space

[+Cardinal Red]

Don't worry, the GPS system will still exist (providing the US Army doesnt re-enable selective availablility)

Just as an FYI on a fine point in your post. The US Navy and Air Force were both involved in the early development of navigational systems. Our present GPS program is under the control of the US Air Force.

It will be interesting to see how much better a civilian program fares.

[+Team Noodles]

The free service, to you and I, will offer sub-metre accuracy.

(Takes all the fun out of the sport)

 

Should minimize the "omg horrible coords, instead i found the cache at xyz coords" logs

[+goldpot]

The free service, to you and I, will offer sub-metre accuracy.

(Takes all the fun out of the sport)

 

Should minimize the "omg horrible coords, instead i found the cache at xyz coords" logs

 

...yes, but I want to know whether it will make the high star difficulty caches easlier to find?

[+The Forester]

Would anyone care to explain the difference between Galileo and the existing EGNOS system that we're accustomed to using? Is it just more accurate?

 

Many many differences.

 

The most important is that it will be available to all of mankind, not withdrawable at the whim of somebody like G.W.Bush (as he gave his own office the right to do). The monopolar world is over and the monopoly of "GPS" will have been broken.

 

At a technical level, the major advantage will be that Galileo satallites will have atomic clocks which are at least an order of magnitude more accurate than the 1970s technology of the dinosaur clocks in the USAF satellites. As the fundamental operating priciple of these things is based on time, that's what 1066 and All That would call "a good thing".

 

Another major advantage is that the Galileo system will allow seamless integration of all three constellations: NavStar; Glonass; Galileo. The US miltary fought tooth and claw against civilians being able to receive Glonass. Remember the furore when NorthWorstOrient equipped their 747s with Glonass receivers?

 

In the bad old days the monopoly system was the USN Transit.

Then along came Glonass, which was vastly better.

Then SA was removed from NavStar and it beat Glonass into a cocked hat.

Now Galileo will trounce NavStar like the dinosaur that it will soon be shown to have been.

 

Whooppee!

 

It'll be a civil system which is not controlled by military fingers. It'll be much better than the overpriced military stuff and it'll be beyond control of any "czar".

[+goldpot]

Would anyone care to explain the difference between Galileo and the existing EGNOS system that we're accustomed to using? Is it just more accurate?

 

Many many differences.

 

The most important is that it will be available to all of mankind, not withdrawable at the whim of somebody like G.W.Bush (as he gave his own office the right to do). The monopolar world is over and the monopoly of "GPS" will have been broken.

 

At a technical level, the major advantage will be that Galileo satallites will have atomic clocks which are at least an order of magnitude more accurate than the 1970s technology of the dinosaur clocks in the USAF satellites. As the fundamental operating priciple of these things is based on time, that's what 1066 and All That would call "a good thing".

 

Another major advantage is that the Galileo system will allow seamless integration of all three constellations: NavStar; Glonass; Galileo. The US miltary fought tooth and claw against civilians being able to receive Glonass. Remember the furore when NorthWorstOrient equipped their 747s with Glonass receivers?

 

In the bad old days the monopoly system was the USN Transit.

Then along came Glonass, which was vastly better.

Then SA was removed from NavStar and it beat Glonass into a cocked hat.

Now Galileo will trounce NavStar like the dinosaur that it will soon be shown to have been.

 

Whooppee!

 

It'll be a civil system which is not controlled by military fingers. It'll be much better than the overpriced military stuff and it'll be beyond control of any "czar".

 

...yes, that is all fine, but, and importantly, will we find the caches quicker than we do a present?

[+Happy Humphrey]

Many many differences.

...

Interesting. So EGNOS (European Geostationary Navigation Overlay Service), despite being "European" and managed by the European Commission, was always under the control of the US Military!

[+The Blorenges]

No, EGNOS is run by the European Space Agency (ESA) and even has it's own satellite (Artemis - over West Africa). The EGNOS ground stations just use the 'American' GPS satellite signal to produce a corrected signal that is re-broadcast up to the EGNOS Artemis satellite and the Inmarsat Satellites in geostationary orbits. It is the signal from these geostationary satellites you pick up that your GPS uses to correct the normal 'American' GPS signal and give you a better accuracy. The letter 'D' that appears in your Garmin GPS display tells you the signal is being corrected. Have a look here.

 

If ESA switched off EGNOS you'd still get a normal GPS fix from the normal GPS satellites. If the Americans switched off the GPS network EGNOS would be useless.

 

Chris (MrB)

Edited January 10, 2010 by The Blorenges

[+Happy Humphrey]

No, EGNOS is run by the European Space Agency (ESA) and even has it's own satellite (Artemis - over West Africa). The EGNOS ground stations just use the 'American' GPS satellite signal to produce a corrected signal that is re-broadcast up to the EGNOS Artemis satellite and the Inmarsat Satellites in geostationary orbits. It is the signal from these geostationary satellites you pick up that your GPS uses to correct the normal 'American' GPS signal and give you a better accuracy. The letter 'D' that appears in your Garmin GPS display tells you the signal is being corrected. Have a look here.

 

If ESA switched off EGNOS you'd still get a normal GPS fix from the normal GPS satellites. If the Americans switched off the GPS network EGNOS would be useless.

 

Chris (MrB)

From the ESA site;

After the successful completion of its development, ownership of EGNOS was transferred to the European Commission on 1 April 2009. EGNOS operations are now managed by the European Commission through a contract with an operator based in France, the European Satellite Services Provider.

Also;

Consisting of three geostationary satellites and a network of ground stations

...it's very confusing!

[+keehotee]

 

Many many differences.

 

The most important is that it will be available to all of mankind, not withdrawable at the whim of somebody like G.W.Bush (as he gave his own office the right to do). The monopolar world is over and the monopoly of "GPS" will have been broken.

 

At a technical level, the major advantage will be that Galileo satallites will have atomic clocks which are at least an order of magnitude more accurate than the 1970s technology of the dinosaur clocks in the USAF satellites. As the fundamental operating priciple of these things is based on time, that's what 1066 and All That would call "a good thing".

 

Another major advantage is that the Galileo system will allow seamless integration of all three constellations: NavStar; Glonass; Galileo. The US miltary fought tooth and claw against civilians being able to receive Glonass. Remember the furore when NorthWorstOrient equipped their 747s with Glonass receivers?

 

In the bad old days the monopoly system was the USN Transit.

Then along came Glonass, which was vastly better.

Then SA was removed from NavStar and it beat Glonass into a cocked hat.

Now Galileo will trounce NavStar like the dinosaur that it will soon be shown to have been.

 

Whooppee!

 

It'll be a civil system which is not controlled by military fingers. It'll be much better than the overpriced military stuff and it'll be beyond control of any "czar".

 

However - "available to all", and "civillian" - do not mean higher accuracy and free unimpeded use are available to the general public.

" Like the US GPS, use of basic (low-accuracy) Galileo services will be free and open to everyone. However, the high-accuracy capabilities will be restricted to military use and paying commercial users."

 

There aint no such thing as a free lunch, and whereas the US system is bankrolled by the US military, Galileo has to to turn a profit to sustain itself.

 

Being a "civillian" system will not preclude it from being switched off - or restricted - in times of military emergency, and nothing in the specification says it won't be. And let's be realistic, when was the last US military emergency that the rest of us weren't also pulled into???

 

Linky to ESA Galileo spec.

Edited January 11, 2010 by keehotee

[+agentmancuso]

Many many differences.

 

The most important is that it will be available to all of mankind, not withdrawable at the whim of somebody like G.W.Bush (as he gave his own office the right to do). The monopolar world is over and the monopoly of "GPS" will have been broken.

 

At a technical level, the major advantage will be that Galileo satallites will have atomic clocks which are at least an order of magnitude more accurate than the 1970s technology of the dinosaur clocks in the USAF satellites. As the fundamental operating priciple of these things is based on time, that's what 1066 and All That would call "a good thing".

 

Another major advantage is that the Galileo system will allow seamless integration of all three constellations: NavStar; Glonass; Galileo. The US miltary fought tooth and claw against civilians being able to receive Glonass. Remember the furore when NorthWorstOrient equipped their 747s with Glonass receivers?

 

In the bad old days the monopoly system was the USN Transit.

Then along came Glonass, which was vastly better.

Then SA was removed from NavStar and it beat Glonass into a cocked hat.

Now Galileo will trounce NavStar like the dinosaur that it will soon be shown to have been.

 

Whooppee!

 

It'll be a civil system which is not controlled by military fingers. It'll be much better than the overpriced military stuff and it'll be beyond control of any "czar".

 

Thanks for that, very interesting.

[+Happy Humphrey]

Many many differences.

...

Interesting. So EGNOS (European Geostationary Navigation Overlay Service), despite being "European" and managed by the European Commission, was always under the control of the US Military!

[+The Blorenges]

Interesting. So EGNOS (European Geostationary Navigation Overlay Service), despite being "European" and managed by the European Commission, was always under the control of the US Military!

 

Not under their control as such but dependent on their GPS system to operate

 

Chris (MrB)

[+Happy Humphrey]

Many many differences.

...

Interesting. So EGNOS (European Geostationary Navigation Overlay Service), despite being "European" and managed by the European Commission, was always under the control of the US Military!

Hmm: not sure what happened there. My post from yesterday got repeated today. I didn't do that!

[+The Forester]

Interesting. So EGNOS (European Geostationary Navigation Overlay Service), despite being "European" and managed by the European Commission, was always under the control of the US Military!

 

EGNOS is merely a local augmentation of the USAF global system.

 

Back in the happy days when a US President switched off SA (the event which triggered geo stashes which eventually became commercialised and monopolised by the GC.com bureaucracy) the US guaranteed that their version of GPS, called NavStar, would not be switched off for civilian users without at least 7 years prior notice. In the dark years of the Bush43 regime, Shrub issued a decree which gave him and his successors the right to switch off GPS for civilian users at any time, either with prior notice or not.

 

In effect, he was threatening to hold the world to ransom.

 

Western civilisation has become hooked on the timing facilities of GPS. Even basic stuff such as the synchro of 50HZ power transmission systems and most upper frequencies of radio and microwave telecommunications gear is now dependent on GPS. That's a helluvan investment in the trustworthiness of the most warmongering country on the planet.

 

Galileo will release us from having to stand under that sword of Damocles.

 

The fact that Galileo will also be an improvement in accuracy over Glonass and NavStar is merely a fortuitous side-benefit.