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It's fair that I'm a paying member and I'm in Iraq with no more caches to find?I guess GC.com should refund my money then?

First, thanks for the service. It is appreciated.

 

It is hard to compare the two. Yours is one of a geographical nature, out of the control of GC.

So you're suggesting that he should stop paying for premium membership simply because he's somewhere that's out of new caches for him?

 

That would be an option, however if you had read the rest of the post, not the course i would suggest.

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Lets think about this so you buy a GPS 100-400 dollars, Swag, hiking shoes, bag or backpack, pens/pencils, etc and your complaining about $30. Out of all the caches out there i'd bet less then 5% of all the caches are actually PMOC. Things are not going to change just because you want them to. Groundspeak does so much for us and to pay $30 a year. If I wanted to hit the closes 500 PMOC near me I would have to travel as far as 483.3 miles from my house to get the farthest one. Within the radius of 483.3 miles there are only 500 PMOC so i dont think that they are making that much of a difference. It is the cache owners choice to do with their cache what they want. If you hate PMOC then ask the owners of the local caches not to make them see what they say and ask why they make them PMOC. Baloo why did you become a premium member?

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I don't have an issue with PMOCs. I disagree with the OP on the fairness of them. Unfair would be taking features away from paying members. But:

 

Lets think about this so you buy a GPS 100-400 dollars, Swag, hiking shoes, bag or backpack, pens/pencils, etc and your complaining about $30.

My own GPS is over five years old (it also only cost me $9, but that's obviously an exceptional case). I know people who use units that are at least twice that old. Just because someone owns something today doesn't mean they could afford to purchase it today, or that they have it exclusively for geocaching. Furthermore, because many think cost of entry shouldn't be a barrier, people in these forums have on occasion generously donated GPS units to people who couldn't afford them. Now granted, the recipients of those units should be the last people complaining about fairness, but that's not the point; the point is there are many people who didn't shell out even $100 for their GPS.

 

Everything else listed is optional to geocaching (technically, even the GPS is optional). If you don't trade and only do urban or short hike caches, you don't need boots, backpack, anything but street clothes.

 

I guess this is a little off-topic. I've just always thought that the argument that you shouldn't be caching if you don't have the money available for a PM is a bad one, designed more to belittle the non-PM than to convince them why there should be PM caches.

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Here's something that hasn't been brought up yet in this thread, There are nonPMs out there that regularly find PMOCs and log them online.

Yes it takes a little work to do it, but if it's really that important to a nonpaying member it can be done.

It just takes a little effort. :cool:

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Baloo why did you become a premium member?

 

My resons are inconsequential, however it was to support the site. From the time I became active to the time I paid is a matter of days. I was not really aware of the premiums.

 

I have similar memberships on several sites, most do not have a premium, yotatech comes to mind. This is what i o since until recently I was in the IT field.

 

I however have disposible income available to me that allows me my toys. Someone posted something to the affect of what if everything cost. My opinion is it would survive for a while, but would not have experienced the growth it did to this point and would never be as popular.

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Hmmm...first this quote:

 

If you give the site money simply in return for the features you gain, then please, take the feature and a thank you but do not hide behind the self righteous "I am supporting the site", your simply buying more perceived product.

 

Then this one:

 

Baloo why did you become a premium member?

My resons are inconsequential, however it was to support the site.

 

You meant to say, "...however, it was to buy more perceived product", right?

Edited by Always & Forever 5
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Hmmm...first this quote:

 

If you give the site money simply in return for the features you gain, then please, take the feature and a thank you but do not hide behind the self righteous "I am supporting the site", your simply buying more perceived product.

 

Then this one:

 

Baloo why did you become a premium member?

My resons are inconsequential, however it was to support the site.

 

You meant to say, "...however, it was to buy more perceived product", right?

No, note the bold. He said, "If you signed up for reason A, don't pretend it was for reason B. I signed up for reason B."

Edited by Dinoprophet
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I am a kid, and I can neither afford it nor get parental permission to mail the payment in or use a credit card. For kids, at least kids like me who can't get a membership, PMOs are completely unfair.

 

What do all of you think?

:blink: UNFAIR MY BUTT!!! :(

 

Go cut the grass a couple of times and there is your 30 bucks!

Oh PigPen, quite picking on the little kid! Na. They started it.

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Hmmm...first this quote:

 

If you give the site money simply in return for the features you gain, then please, take the feature and a thank you but do not hide behind the self righteous "I am supporting the site", your simply buying more perceived product.

 

Then this one:

 

Baloo why did you become a premium member?

My reasons are inconsequential, however it was to support the site.

 

You meant to say, "...however, it was to buy more perceived product", right?

 

I'm thinking you are one of those that gets all there news from headlines. Please read the post in it's entirety.

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I want I want I want, but I don't want to pay for it!

 

I really want a Red Ferrari F430, but I have to feed, and support my wife and two kids. Everyone else should pay for it, so I can be happy. :blink:

 

Quit being selfish kid. Mow your neighbors lawn, or rake leaves, or collect recyclables, so you can pony up the three bucks.

This is just a sad and immature response by an adult to an intelligently worded post by a young member on this forum. I challenge "Kit Fox" to quote icefall5 asking for anything from anyone. For "Kit Fox" to suggest otherwise is simple untrue and despicable.

 

Kit Fox, does your post make your feel better in any way? Go ahead, point out where icefall5 asked for anything. I challenge you to do so. Put up or shut up. And then grow up.

 

Regards,

 

JohnX

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I have yet to use a single premium feature.

 

The only one I use is geocaching maps, and an occasional pocket query. This may change if I get a new GPS.

My theory is: If I wish to fly on an airplane, I can complain that the people paying more than I am are getting better services than I am. That's unfair! Naw. I get what I pay for. That's the American way!

BTW, love your tagline!

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I want I want I want, but I don't want to pay for it!

 

I really want a Red Ferrari F430, but I have to feed, and support my wife and two kids. Everyone else should pay for it, so I can be happy. :blink:

 

Quit being selfish kid. Mow your neighbors lawn, or rake leaves, or collect recyclables, so you can pony up the three bucks.

This is just a sad and immature response by an adult to an intelligently worded post by a young member on this forum. I challenge "Kit Fox" to quote icefall5 asking for anything from anyone. For "Kit Fox" to suggest otherwise is simple untrue and despicable.

 

Kit Fox, does your post make your feel better in any way? Go ahead, point out where icefall5 asked for anything. I challenge you to do so. Put up or shut up. And then grow up.

 

Regards,

 

JohnX

 

Now that's funny right there :D ! Several other cachers quoted my post, and were in full agreement with it. Your last line was more immature than my original post. Your right he didn't ask for anything, he only whined about how unfair the real world is.

 

Before you criticize me, i'd be happy to "compare stats" with you, and see who has contributed more to this sport, in the last few years. :(

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I personally like to have the choice. If I pay my money I have the right to choose. I personally don't have any caches hidden and I don't particularly hunt for the member only caches but I do have the choice. Anyone who doesn't like member only caches, don't have to look for them..... I pay the yearly dues but for a month it's only 3 bucks.

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I have yet to use a single premium feature.

 

Good for you, you should only use them if so choose/want/need to do so.

 

PM features are an option I choose to use because of the way I want to cache. PQs and the off-topic forums were my main reason.

 

Back when I was a non-paying member I certainly didn't look at a field of caches and decide to take PM caches as affront to my sensibilities. Besides I have enough people dogging me (pun intended) for not supporting the animal victims of Katrina.

 

I'm supposed to get work up about some hobbyist not getting to log three caches in his local area?

 

Pass.

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I've been around for a very long time. Just to add to the discussion, there used to be a cacher in our area that planted caches with the restriction that no one could find and log his caches until a certain number of newbies found and logged it first. Newbies that had never had first to finds before.

 

Quite the opposite of what we have here. Any cachers wish to set up their caches either way, fine by me.

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For the purposes of this post (and the rest of this topic if you use them), PM means premium members and PMO is premium member only cache.

 

I really, really think the option to make a cache for PMs only should be eliminated. It is very annoying to search on here, find that a cache has been published that hasn't been there before, only to find that the owner has made it only for PMs.

 

There are many times when this has happened to me, and I know of a few cachers who get the page published, set the cache for PMs only, and then enable it for everyone as soon as it has an FTF. Those are the caches I really don't like. I think we should all have a fair chance at getting an FTF, regardless of what cache it is or who the hider is.

 

It also is unfair to some groups of people. For instance, and I do not want to get into a debate about pricing and whether this is cheap or expensive, but for some people $30 a year for a premium membership may be too much. I am a kid, and I can neither afford it nor get parental permission to mail the payment in or use a credit card. For kids, at least kids like me who can't get a membership, PMOs are completely unfair.

 

What do all of you think?

 

I think, instead of complaining here, if you really want to do PMOCs so badly, you should politely and diplomatically request that the self-same benefactors who supply your other caching expenses, i.e. GPSr, transportation, meals out, trading swag, etc., that it would be a cool idea if they would chip in for a premium membership for you.

 

Otherwise you might find this lack of a privilege that you did not pay for to be full of great life lessons that could aid in your up-coming maturity:

 

1. Nothing in life is "free".

2. If you are careful such that you don't get ripped off, you usually get what you pay for.

3. No one owes you anything unless you enter into an agreement (often called a "contract") in which you exchange things of agreed upon worth.

4. The world doesn't revolve around you.

5. There is a sure fire way to get money, it is called "work".

6. Life is not "fair"

7. People who try to make life "fair" end up ruining more than they "fix"

8. Don't take your mommy to your job interview after you graduate college!!!!! :blink:

 

There are many more. You learn many of them in due time, my son. *oriental bow*

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For the purposes of this post (and the rest of this topic if you use them), PM means premium members and PMO is premium member only cache.

 

I really, really think the option to make a cache for PMs only should be eliminated. It is very annoying to search on here, find that a cache has been published that hasn't been there before, only to find that the owner has made it only for PMs.

 

There are many times when this has happened to me, and I know of a few cachers who get the page published, set the cache for PMs only, and then enable it for everyone as soon as it has an FTF. Those are the caches I really don't like. I think we should all have a fair chance at getting an FTF, regardless of what cache it is or who the hider is.

 

It also is unfair to some groups of people. For instance, and I do not want to get into a debate about pricing and whether this is cheap or expensive, but for some people $30 a year for a premium membership may be too much. I am a kid, and I can neither afford it nor get parental permission to mail the payment in or use a credit card. For kids, at least kids like me who can't get a membership, PMOs are completely unfair.

 

What do all of you think?

You asked me what I think... I think that you have a problem. Your problem is quite commonplace nowadays, even among many adults in our modern society. The problem consists of an attitude called "entitlement", wherein you want everything -- such as all of the listing, tracking and logging services of the geocaching.com listing service, and even all of the benefits reserved for those members who pay to support the site -- for free. In closing, I am curious: since you have established that you DO want ALL of the services and benefits of the geocaching.com service to be free of charge for all, whom do you expect to pay for all the costs (employees, programmers, hosting servers, custom programming, web access, bandwidth, etc.) of running the service and the site? Are you planning on making a lifetime 25 million dollar bequeathment today to geocaching.com to support all this work? If so, thanks much!

 

Lastly, I HATE it when people moan that things are unfair! No one ever promised you that life would be fair, and rather, you made an erroneous assumption at the starting point of this game. Rather than doing the moaning and complaining in which you are currently engaging, you would have a lot more fun in life and get a lot further in life if you would let go of that silly nonsense and instead go to your heart and feel and express gratitude and appreciation for all the wonders around you, including the geocaching.com listing service and PM caches.

I don't even know where to start with you Vinny. How can you even say things like this without knowing who I am?! I never mentioned anything about any other services, and I can completely understand why there is the premium member option. I know they have server bills to pay, bandwidth, all that stuff. I never said I want them all to be free! I don't even know what else to say.

Did someone else pay for your GPSr?

 

Did someone else pay for your car? Your insurance? Your GAS?

 

Did someone else pay for your cell phone? Your text messaging? Your uploaded ring tones?

 

Did someone else pay for your Ipod music downloads?

 

Did someone else pay for your computer? Your internet access?

 

Did someone else pay for your cable TV?

 

Did someone else pay for your Blockbuster DVDs?

 

Did someone else pay for your last 10 visits to McDonalds?

 

Nothing is free. Somebody pays for everything, somehow.

Actually, I can answer yes to all of those except McDonalds. I'm only 14 years old.

 

I want I want I want, but I don't want to pay for it!

 

I really want a Red Ferrari F430, but I have to feed, and support my wife and two kids. Everyone else should pay for it, so I can be happy. :blink:

 

Quit being selfish kid. Mow your neighbors lawn, or rake leaves, or collect recyclables, so you can pony up the three bucks.

Pretty sure I never said anything like "I want it!" I simply brought up that I don't like MOCs. However, I did say that I am not allowed to have a premium membership, whether I buy it or not. And don't even think about ripping my parents about this either.

 

I would like to see what evidence you use to come to the conclusion that icefall has "an attitude called "entitlement"" And Two, "want ALL of the services and benefits of the geocaching.com service to be free of charge for all". I did not see him state that in your quoted post.

 

It might have been difficult to find, so I cut out everything except the entitlement whining:

 

I think we should all have a fair chance at getting an FTF, regardless of what cache it is or who the hider is.

It also is unfair to some groups of people.

For kids, at least kids like me who can't get a membership, PMOs are completely unfair.

 

Perhaps icefall has a different definition of "fair" than I do? In my little version of reality, I pay $30 a year, while he pays nothing. Fair to me would mean I get services or treatment that he does not. Fair to me also means that the owners of this website get to determine what additional services I get for my $30. Now, if Groundspeak made everything exactly equal across the board for paying members as well as non paying members, that would seem "unfair" to me. His attitude is the ultimate personification of the entitlement generation. He wants the premium benefits handed to him for free, and if he doesn't get them, he yells, "Foul!"

I never asked for the entitlements for free, I just asked everyone's opinion on whether they think it's fair or not. Simple as that. You don't need to go putting words in my mouth, and I don't appreciate being stereotyped.

 

I really don't appreciate anyone shooting me down simply for asking about discussion as to whether people think MOCs are fair or not. I gave my opinion, and you can have yours too. Don't shoot me down just because I have an opinion different than yours.

 

Thank you to marnen, n6mhg, and knight2000.

 

These are my responses to some posts on page 1. I'll post more from pages 2 and 3 and if there's more since I've written this later.

 

Sorry if some of these sound really rude, but I think they merit it because of the way I was attacked.

Edited by icefall5
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Your right he didn't ask for anything, he only whined about how unfair the real world is.
But you, in large bold type, in a mocking tone, certainly suggested he did. Thanks anyway, for admitting I was right.

 

You then wrote:

Your last line was more immature than my original post.

 

Let's re-examine the two posts in question:

I want I want I want, but I don't want to pay for it!
And what I wrote:
Put up or shut up. And then grow up.

I'll leave it up to the reader to decide the relative maturity level of each of the posts. Also, I would like to point out intellectual flawlessness of Kit Fox's "I'm not immature! You're immature!" argument.

 

And now Kit Fox closes his post with this:

Before you criticize me, i'd be happy to "compare stats" with you, and see who has contributed more to this sport, in the last few years. :blink:
Sorry, K.F., I'm not going to fall for your attempt to change the subject. My only intent is to criticize your immature mocking of a 13 year old member of this forum. Good work KitFox!

 

JohnX

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Pretty sure I never said anything like "I want it!" I simply brought up that I don't like MOCs. However, I did say that I am not allowed to have a premium membership, whether I buy it or not. And don't even think about ripping my parents about this either.

 

I will.

 

How can your parents buy you a GPSr, taxi you around to different caches and help out with virtually everything yet refuse to even allow you to buy your own PM? That makes no sense whatsoever. If this is truly the case, your parents need a talking to.

 

Answer me this...

 

Why won't your parents even let you personally buy a PM?

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Your right he didn't ask for anything, he only whined about how unfair the real world is.
But you, in large bold type, in a mocking tone, certainly suggested he did. Thanks anyway, for admitting I was right.

 

You then wrote:

Your last line was more immature than my original post.

 

Let's re-examine the two posts in question:

I want I want I want, but I don't want to pay for it!
And what I wrote:
Put up or shut up. And then grow up.

I'll leave it up to the reader to decide the relative maturity level of each of the posts. Also, I would like to point out intellectual flawlessness of Kit Fox's "I'm not immature! You're immature!" argument.

 

And now Kit Fox closes his post with this:

Before you criticize me, i'd be happy to "compare stats" with you, and see who has contributed more to this sport, in the last few years. :D
Sorry, K.F., I'm not going to fall for your attempt to change the subject. My only intent is to criticize your immature mocking of a 13 year old member of this forum. Good work KitFox!

 

JohnX

 

:blink::(

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My responses to page 2, in 2 posts. Sorry if some of these sound rude, but I don't appreciate the way I was treated in those.

 

That's true but irrelevant. I'm arguing this more on general principles than on how it would affect me personally -- which is why I said that offering to buy Icefall a month of premium membership missed the point as far as I was concerned. (Of course, I'm not Icefall, so I have no idea if he feels the same way, but that's how I'd react if the offer had been made to me.)

I completely agree. Thank you.

 

I know of a few cachers who get the page published, set the cache for PMs only, and then enable it for everyone as soon as it has an FTF. Those are the caches I really don't like. I think we should all have a fair chance at getting an FTF, regardless of what cache it is or who the hider is.

 

It also is unfair to some groups of people. For instance, and I do not want to get into a debate about pricing and whether this is cheap or expensive, but for some people $30 a year for a premium membership may be too much. I am a kid, and I can neither afford it nor get parental permission to mail the payment in or use a credit card. For kids, at least kids like me who can't get a membership, PMOs are completely unfair.

 

What do all of you think?

 

It's fair that I'm a paying member and I'm in Iraq with no more caches to find?I guess GC.com should refund my money then?

 

I agree with Kitfox 100%.This is a common theme with today's people,adults and kids alike.ME ME ME...Get a job.There's tons of ways to make money...especially a measly thirty dollars.

 

You're also indicating that cache placers should be dictated to who can find their cache.I personally believe in the MOC till an FTF.You spend the money to play,so that's another perk when you pay for a membership.

 

This is basically not what you wanted to hear,but as the Dennis Leary song goes"Life's gonna suck when you grow up when you grow up and it sucks pretty bad right now!"

Well, thanks again for the wonderful stereotype. I'm sorry I have an opinion. And please notice, I never asked for things to be free. I completely appreciate the service Groundspeak provides us, free listings and such, but maybe I have things better to do with $30 as a kid, save for college perhaps?

 

Life isn't fair...I don't know how you can think you should get all the benefits paying members do for nothing.

 

If you cannot afford $3 a month, you cannot afford caching.

Well stated. Besides, even when I was age 13, back in the sixties, when dollars were worth a lot more and were a lot more scarce, I made over $4 per day in earnings, which came to over $120 per month and over $1,400 per year. If you cannot afford $3 per month, you CERTAINLY cannot afford to be a geocacher!

Well, good for you that things were different when you were a kid, but they are very different now. I have been calling newspapers trying to get routes for them, but none of them have them, and if you didn't notice, it's become much harder to get a job as a young teen these days.

 

when I was 12, I had a paperroute for spending money. I used it to buy comics, clothes, and other things I needed.

 

by 13, I was babysitting all the time.

 

at 16, I got my first fast food restaurant job.

 

so why not get a paperroute? You'd be able to afford a premimum membership after a month.

 

(a friend has promised to buy one for me for my birthday, but that's besides the point... or not. add it to your wish list.)

I've tried.

 

Just to clarify- As I've said numerous times above, I really think Groundspeak is amazing for offering this. I really appreciate it and I can understand why they need PMs. I have nothing against the idea of PMs, just the idea of having MOCs.

 

EDIT- I've had to split this up into separate posts because of all the quotes, so please read on.

Edited by icefall5
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Geocaching.com exists to serve its users. <snip> ...

Geocaching.com exists to serve its users customers.

I have to disagree with you on that one. There are many extra features with a PM, but Groundspeak needs a way to pay for the site. I just think MOCs are a little too much.

 

I'm with Vinny on this one. That sounds like a lecture I got once. It was true then, and it's still true today. :D .

 

I'd like to point out a few things that folk seem to be missing. Geocaching is FREE! You don't have to pay to geocache, you don't have to be a member to geocache... it is in fact completely free. There are places all over the web that list caches that are 100% free.

 

Geocaching.com is a business brought to us by our friends at Groundspeak. In order to provide us with this well designed and well maintained community, they give you the option to pay for a Premium Membership (which many of us proudly and eagerly do)!

 

What many don't realize is that rather than make the entire geocaching.com website a pay only service, they generously allow the majority of caches published to be made available to the geocaching community free of charge :D . Yes, you heard me right, completely free of charge. In a world where nothing is free... the majority of this site is! We don't hear anyone thanking Groundspeak for their incredible generosity (Thanks Groundspeak, we love ya!) instead we hear... "That isn't fair, why isn't it all free?". Well, life isn't fair, or free.

 

Each geocache is the property of it's owner, they just happen to be listed on geocaching.com. If the owner wants to make the cache available only to members, only to his friends or only to his family that's his choice (although Groundspeak only offers two levels, public or Members Only).

 

To the OP... I understand that it's frustrating to be essentially "locked out" of the Members Only caches, but like I said, we should be thankful for all the services that Groundspeak provides us for free. I think the "perks" that Groundspeak provides those of us who are Premium Members are a really nice bonus. And my best suggestion is that if you don't like "Members Only Caches" lead by example and go out and hide some public caches of your own! :(

 

Driver Carries Cache

I have, I've hidden 5 of them. If I ever get a PM, I will never, ever, ever make a single MOC. Ever.

 

 

By the way...where/how did you get your GPSr?

 

Did you buy it yourself or did someone give it to you?

 

It might explain some of your entitlement attitude.

 

However...I will forgive you for said attitude. At that age, most kids think like you do.

Yet again, stereotype! I did receive my GPSr for Christmas, but I do not think I have an entitlement attitude. I completely understand that Groundspeak has to have some way to pay for the money, but I think MOCs might be a touch too much.

 

1) ...Bad theory. Really bad theory. All it takes is one intelligent vandal seeing one cacher to give away the location

2) ....If the area is that sensitive, there probably should not be a cache there at all.

 

It's worth correctiong a couple of mispeceptions.

 

1) This isn't a theory. It's an observed fact that PMO caches are safer from intensional cache maggotry. There is no sure thing, but this helps.

2) If the area is sensative then a touch less traffic may be all that's needed.

 

I've personally hidden 99 geocaches. Many start out as PMOC, and some will change to regular caches over time. Several times, when I changed my pmocs to regular caches, they disappeared. None of the caches that walked away were in busy areas, so the I doubt the muggle theory applied. I spoke with several other cachers who lost caches in the same area, and all were regular caches. When you take the time and money to hide nice caches, you want them to last a long time. Making caches PMOCs is not 100 percent effective at preventing their disappearance.

 

:D Me personally, I make my caches even more exclusive then PMOCs. I make them 4.5 star terrain caches, so I can weed out all but the most physically fit geocachers. I also make some of my puzzles so hard that you have to have a degree in cryptography in order to find them.

 

Marnen,

 

If you think PMOC caches aren't fair because they can't be found by everyone, then what are your thoughts on puzzle caches, and high terrain caches?

With those, you have to be physically fit, which usually doesn't cost money. Just work out a lot. But with some high terrain caches, you do have to have special equipment and I can understand that. For the people who want to find those, it's the thrill and the challenge of getting up high and working up a sweat, and sometimes even the danger. You can't buy those feelings.

 

Agrees with Beezerb, lol.

 

Hi Icefall! Hubby and I met you last summer at an event. Don't be fooled by the 'from Colorado' line, I'm there, Hubby is still in Michigan. I remember you as being a nice, intelligent, and fun guy who was pretty psyched about caching.

Seemes you are getting hit pretty hard by some responders, and are getting alot of support from others. Personally, because of your age, I am sitting here wondering about the FTF issue for you. I know you can't just hop into your car as soon as a new cache gets published....and I'm sure you have to play 'let's make a deal' with your parents in order to get them to drive you around. FTF is only one benefit of membership. I know you would enjoy the other perks a great deal. You're a bells and whistles kind of guy.

If you want the FTF, it is going to require a membership in that area. No two ways about it. You cache in a FTF hound area and some of us have ALL the good toys. (not me :blink: )

You mention not getting any help from your parents with the membership. I wonder, as a parent, if they do not want you to have it. Perhaps as a way to keep you from getting as addicted as some of us....if that isn't the reason, and they have no obection to you becoming a member, then ask another cacher to help you. You pay them, they put it on the plastic. You shouldn't have any problem with this, you have cached in the area long enough and have placed some fun caches fo rthe rest of us to enjoy.

If the issue is money, I agree with the earlier poster who said to get a paper route. Suprisingly decent money. The Holland Sentinel, it seems, is always looking for delivery people in your area. Hubby used to work for them as the Southside DM and if you e-mailed him, he might be able to hook you up.

Chin up!! You'll get this figured out!

Thank you very much! I never actually thought about the Holland Sentinel while looking for routes. Thanks!

 

..... completely unfair.

 

What do all of you think?

 

Yes, you are absolutely correct. It would be completely unfair to the site admin. to expect them to keep the site running for free. That is what you meant, wasn't it?

I never said anything about eliminating PMs completely. Thank you very much for putting words in my mouth.
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Just one from page 3 I'd like to address...

 

I am a kid, and I can neither afford it nor get parental permission to mail the payment in or use a credit card. For kids, at least kids like me who can't get a membership, PMOs are completely unfair.

 

What do all of you think?

:blink: UNFAIR MY BUTT!!! :(

 

Go cut the grass a couple of times and there is your 30 bucks!

Oh PigPen, quite picking on the little kid! Na. They started it.

Thanks for reading the rest of my original post. It goes on to say:
I am a kid, and I can neither afford it nor get parental permission to mail the payment in or use a credit card.

 

I am now going to PM a mod to close this. Feel free to reply before it's closed.

Edited by icefall5
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I am now going to PM a mod to close this. I wanted this to have thoughtful discussion, not personal attacks against myself. Thanks guys, you've all been a great help. :blink:

 

No one personally attacked you...we gave our opinions and offered suggestions that would help you out.

 

Too bad you didn't like what we had to say.

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I appreciate all input, but when I'm told by people who don't even know me that I have an attitude that I should be entitled to anything and that all kids today are like that, I hate it.

Edited by icefall5
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Way to go icefall. Great responses, especially considering the amount of flack you had to take in.

 

I really didn't see it that way to be honest.

 

To me, it seemed that s/he asked a question, hoping for a desired answer, When said desired answer didn't come for the most part, s/he got bent out of shape.

 

No one was mean or anything like that to this kid.

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No one personally attacked you...we gave our opinions and offered suggestions that would help you out.

icefall5 was personally attacked several times and handled it quite well, demonstrating a maturity level well beyond many who posted on this thread.

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No one personally attacked you...we gave our opinions and offered suggestions that would help you out.

icefall5 was personally attacked several times and handled it quite well, demonstrating a maturity level well beyond many who posted on this thread.

 

Please...cite examples of these alleged attacks.

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No one personally attacked you...we gave our opinions and offered suggestions that would help you out.

icefall5 was personally attacked several times and handled it quite well, demonstrating a maturity level well beyond many who posted on this thread.

 

Please...cite examples of these alleged attacks.

 

Try reading icefall's posts, they address and respond to many of them.

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There are first class seats on airplanes. Those people get warm moist cloth towels after their hot dinners and champaign. They get fluffy pillows and big comfy chairs.

 

Coach flyers get 3 seats squished together and a bag of peanuts. When they ask for a soda, the flight attendant pops open a can of pop and poors half the can warm into a plastic glass, and uses the other half for someone else across the aisle.

 

Fair? No - but if they're willing to pay for those perks, then who am I to get snarky about it.

 

Me personally, I would not put out a Members Only cache. But remember there are some that do it NOT for the elitist attitude of being a Members Only. Instead they do it for the audit trail left behind by those viewing the cache page. You see, one perk is that you can see which logins have accessed the cache page online. Some PMs mistakenly believe that they can catch cache thieves that way.

Edited by Markwell
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There are first class seats on airplanes. Those people get warm moist cloth towels after their hot dinners and champaign. They get fluffy pillows and big comfy chairs.

 

Coach flyers get 3 seats squished together and a bag of peanuts. When they ask for a soda, the flight attendant pops open a can of pop and poors half the can warm into a plastic glass, and uses the other half for someone else across the aisle.

 

Fair? No - but if they're willing to pay for those perks, then who am I to get snarky about it.

 

Me personally, I would not put out a Members Only cache. But remember there are some that do it NOT for the elitist attitude of being a Members Only. Instead they do it for the audit trail left behind by those viewing the cache page. You see, one perk is that you can see which logins have accessed the cache page online. Some PMs mistakenly believe that they can catch cache thieves that way.

I currently have two PMO caches and they are both puzzle caches. I made them PMO caches so I could monitor the logins that have accessed the cache pages online. It helps me to gauge if I need to add better hints. I don't want the puzzles to be impossible. Once I'm happy with the hints, I'll make them regular caches. It was also fun to see who would be the FTS and the FTF by monitoring the logins. I was a non-member for my first year or so. I remember wishing that they wouldn't have shown me the caches I couldn't find. It was a tease and it didn't have anything to do with me becoming a premium member. I became a premium member so I could download PQs. Edited by TrailGators
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