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WMAs in WV removing caches


Ed_S

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Looks like the Wildlife Management Areas in West Virginia are for hunters only. They seem to be confiscating, without notification, any caches they find.

 

http://www.magpi.us/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2028#2028

 

I've done a cache or two of PAFarmboy's, and I can vouch for his integrity. He creates challenging, well-thought-out and well-laid-out caches. He does his homework. Please read the link. This ain't right!

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It appears that the people who run the Wildlife Management Areas in West Virginia have decided that those areas are for hunting only, not for caching. They're evidently confiscating caches found in their areas, despite their being legally placed with permission.

 

http://www.magpi.us/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2028#2028

 

I'd like to ask that if anyone is in the area and affected by this seemingly arbitrary change in their policy, they contact anyone they can think of to get this bad decision corrected.

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:blink: When reading the link from Ed_S, be sure to read PAFarmboy's entry near the end of the page. He is the owner of the accused caches and he clears up some of the misinformation that is in the earlier posts.

 

Ed said it - "This ain't right." I have no problem with hunters and I dutifully wear my orange as I dodge bullets in these wildlife areas. I would never ask that hunting be stopped...so let me cache.

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I've got way more of a problem with how the WVDNR appears to want to handle this than anything involving the placement. To me, the placement of the cache takes a back seat to the other issue. I don't think I've seen a WMA sign yet that said it was restricted to ONLY hunters and wildlife. Sure I haven't read them all, but if I recall, they are public lands.

 

As for the placement, I haven't done any of PAFarmboy's, but I can definitely tell you I've been in far more uncomfortable and worse situations with both feet firmly planted on the ground. If the ladder is safe and secure to get up there, yeah, I'd go. If I didn't feel comfortable doing that cache for ANY reason, then I wouldn't. It's my decision. I've said it a hundred times - not every cache is for every person.

 

<edit to add>

 

What if the cacher was just a hiker? Would the hunters then want hiking banned in WMAs?

Edited by ScoutingWV
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It appears that the people who run the Wildlife Management Areas in West Virginia have decided that those areas are for hunting only, not for caching. They're evidently confiscating caches found in their areas, despite their being legally placed with permission.

 

http://www.magpi.us/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2028#2028

 

I'd like to ask that if anyone is in the area and affected by this seemingly arbitrary change in their policy, they contact anyone they can think of to get this bad decision corrected.

 

I saw that on a different local forum, but I think it's just the same cut-and-pasted post. I remember almost the same thing happening on a certain SGL in NWPA, when in fact there never was a ban on caches in SGL's statewide, just one anti-geocaching manager's opinion. The hider of the cache in question was told by a representative of the WV State Parks system that there are only 3 WMA's in the State that require permits for geocaches, and the cache in question wasn't on one of them. I think the local reviewer may have to get involved, and wade through the burearcracy. Good luck to them, for sure!!

 

IBTM (In before the move). :blink:

Edited by TheWhiteUrkel
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It appears that the people who run the Wildlife Management Areas in West Virginia have decided that those areas are for hunting only, not for caching. They're evidently confiscating caches found in their areas, despite their being legally placed with permission.

 

http://www.magpi.us/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2028#2028

 

I'd like to ask that if anyone is in the area and affected by this seemingly arbitrary change in their policy, they contact anyone they can think of to get this bad decision corrected.

 

What's the problem with disallowing caching in a hunting area?

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What's the problem with disallowing caching in a hunting area?

Just to play Devil's advocate, what's the problem with allowing caching in a hunting area?

 

That's what I'm saying...If they're worried about disturbing hunters,have 'No caching' rules during certain hunting seasons.It's public land,and everyone should be able to enjoy it in some way.It's not like it's a wildlife refuge,it's for management!

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What's the problem with disallowing caching in a hunting area?

Just to play Devil's advocate, what's the problem with allowing caching in a hunting area?

 

I didn't say there was. Then again, I am not the one complaining. :blink:

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What's the problem with disallowing caching in a hunting area?

Just to play Devil's advocate, what's the problem with allowing caching in a hunting area?

 

That's what I'm saying...If they're worried about disturbing hunters,have 'No caching' rules during certain hunting seasons.It's public land,and everyone should be able to enjoy it in some way.It's not like it's a wildlife refuge,it's for management!

 

While I agree it's not the ideal situation I also don't have a problem with it. Public land use is a privilege, not an inherent right. I guess when I see as much of the cavalier attitude people have here at times for using public land I don't really have a problem when I see government agencies enforcing rules.

 

It'd be interesting to hear their side of it...I can't imagine they've had a problem with a cacher that instigated the action. :blink:

Edited by egami
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While I agree it's not the ideal situation I also don't have a problem with it. Public land use is a privilege, not an inherent right. I guess when I see as much of the cavalier attitude people have here at times for using public land I don't really have a problem when I see government agencies enforcing rules.

 

It'd be interesting to hear their side of it...I can't imagine they've had a problem with a cacher that instigated the action. :blink:

Like I've said before, I've got a different vantage point on public land use than most, because I'm one of the ones that has to help manage that use.

I don't like to see, nor do I think it's right for any public use land that is open to any form of outdoor recreation, like hunting or fishing, totally barring any other. I can understand restrictions on the use in certain small portions or at certain times of the year.

On the land use issues I now see caching in the exact same light as hiking, biking, and ,where allowed, ATVing. If those are allowed on public lands, then caching should be allowed with the same restriction and rules.

 

As a side-note the problem I see, and have to deal with, more than any other is when cachers don't think those rules apply to them. But that is a different topic.

 

Edit for clarity

Edited by Totem Clan
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Like I've said before, I've got a different vantage point on public land use than most, because I'm one of the ones that has to help manage that use.

I don't like to see, nor do I think it's right for any public use land that is open to any form of outdoor recreation, like hunting or fishing, totally barring any other. I can understand restrictions on the use in certain small portions or at certain times of the year.

On the land use issues I now see caching in the exact same light as hiking, biking, and ,where allowed, ATVing. If those are allowed on public lands, then caching should be allowed with the same restriction and rules.

 

In general I agree with that. However, I do still consider caching to be unique and I would make exception to potential nuances for caching.

 

For example, our local wildlife preserve won't allow caching because it's "prairie" land. They want people staying on trails and not wandering off them as caching can tend to cause (because it might damage the prairie grasses).

 

Exceptions like that I think are quite reasonable.

 

As a side-note the problem I see, and have to deal with, more than any other is when cachers don't think those rules apply to them. But that is a different topic.

 

I agree. And again, as mentioned, I also have a bit of a problem with the cavalier attitude displayed by some and the mentality that public land use in an inherent right in all cases when it is not.

 

And actually, I can be sympathetic with the OP. It's unfortunate, but I made my comments originally more on the line of provoking thought rather than blindly assuming this is simply a rule change out of the blue.

 

I could certainly see an "incident' provoking this rule change knowing how some of the people think here regarding public land use. I don't think "most" cachers are like this, but it only takes a few flying in the face of government officials to ruin it for everyone.

Edited by egami
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For example, our local wildlife preserve won't allow caching because it's "prairie" land. They want people staying on trails and not wandering off them as caching can tend to cause (because it might damage the prairie grasses).

 

Exceptions like that I think are quite reasonable.

 

 

I don't agree with them on a blanket ban on caching, but I understand their viewpoint. One of the area that I help oversee is a privately owned prairie preserve that the State of North Dakota helps to maintain. They want more people to come to the preserve and to use the land but they don't want it scared by the erosion caused by cross trails. I will be working with them this summer to try to get some wisely place environmentally sound caches on their land. They feel as I do that if they allow hiking, under controlled conditions, why shouldn't they allow caching under those same controls.

 

Edit to fix the quotes

 

I have even got a Federal NWR that is willing to work with me now to place caches on their lands where it is appropriate. The point is if we will take the time to do it right caching should not be restricted anymore than any other of the outdoor activities. In fact with the right approach the land managers often find caching as a benefit rather than as harm.

Edited by Totem Clan
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....For example, our local wildlife preserve won't allow caching because it's "prairie" land. They want people staying on trails and not wandering off them as caching can tend to cause (because it might damage the prairie grasses).....

 

You have got to be kidding...... why is it that animals can wonder all over and create trails but if humans do it - it is considered somehow "un-natural". On prairie grass of all things. Must be too many cornfields in Iowa and not enough grass these days.....Wyoming and Nebraska could probably send some over "on loan"

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....For example, our local wildlife preserve won't allow caching because it's "prairie" land. They want people staying on trails and not wandering off them as caching can tend to cause (because it might damage the prairie grasses).....

 

You have got to be kidding...... why is it that animals can wonder all over and create trails but if humans do it - it is considered somehow "un-natural". On prairie grass of all things. Must be too many cornfields in Iowa and not enough grass these days.....Wyoming and Nebraska could probably send some over "on loan"

 

Don't get me started on the DNR...I could rant on about 20 different things they do that drive me nuts here in Iowa. :shocked:

 

I am working with them at this location however to allow a cache near the main offices. They are softening a bit.

 

*edit*

 

Oh yeah, when joking with the DNR lady (in a somewhat serious manner) I asked how the mowed and maintained pathway was "natural". :(

Edited by egami
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<rant>

This is a bit of a side topic but still related - it appears that this whole issue came about because of geocachers disturbing hunters during hunting season. Turkeys are tough to hunt - you need to work to call them in, and anything out of the ordinary will send them running -- especially noisy people walking through the woods. The lands are there for everyone, but hunters only get a couple weeks a year for THEIR game.

 

Stay out of the woods during hunting season out of respect for the hunters. If we let them have their time, they'll let us have ours.

 

Unfortunately this isn't the first I've heard of cachers causing problems by disrespecting hunters. Keep it up people, and we'll be banned from all sorts of places where we have access now.

 

</rant>

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Moving this thread of local interest from "Geocaching Topics" to the "Northeast" forum. In passing, I note that in 2004 a West Virginia State Official confirmed to me that there was no policy applicable to geocaching in WMA's (other than the handful managed by the State Parks because they have recreational facilities). Either things have changed or, as in Pennsylvania, different regions of the state have different views on caches in hunting areas.

 

Anyways, it was that 2004 correspondence that governed and shall continue to govern cache review decisions in West Virginia.

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...While I agree it's not the ideal situation I also don't have a problem with it. Public land use is a privilege, not an inherent right....

 

Actually this is dead wrong. If public land stops allowing public use, it serves no public purpose and should be disposed of so it can contribue tax to government for other uses.

 

Public land access and use is the value of public lands. Remove that and they might as well be private.

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<rant>

This is a bit of a side topic but still related - it appears that this whole issue came about because of geocachers disturbing hunters during hunting season. Turkeys are tough to hunt - you need to work to call them in, and anything out of the ordinary will send them running -- especially noisy people walking through the woods. The lands are there for everyone, but hunters only get a couple weeks a year for THEIR game.

 

Stay out of the woods during hunting season out of respect for the hunters. If we let them have their time, they'll let us have ours....</rant>

 

Given how few cachers I ever see on the trail, it's more likely that standard hikers and other folks who have a right to be there are the real issue and the proximity of a cache gives focus for the blame.

 

I can understand "Respect that during hunting season you should do your best to not foul up a hunters hunt, and please wear orange." but not "give up all your right of use and access while hunters also use the area".

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....For example, our local wildlife preserve won't allow caching because it's "prairie" land. They want people staying on trails and not wandering off them as caching can tend to cause (because it might damage the prairie grasses).....

 

You have got to be kidding...... why is it that animals can wonder all over and create trails but if humans do it - it is considered somehow "un-natural". On prairie grass of all things. Must be too many cornfields in Iowa and not enough grass these days.....Wyoming and Nebraska could probably send some over "on loan"

 

Its a catch 22. Build the wildlife preserve, work to get prarie grass on it, invite peole to come and see it, they do...then you have to create trails to minimie their impact. It's not quite like the an open track of land with no special designation. If caches are place that follow park rules there really wouldnt' need to be a ban on caching in any park or wild life area. The ones that say "stay on the trail" set the limit on caches with no new rules needed. At least that's how it should work.

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Given how few cachers I ever see on the trail, it's more likely that standard hikers and other folks who have a right to be there are the real issue and the proximity of a cache gives focus for the blame.

 

I can understand "Respect that during hunting season you should do your best to not foul up a hunters hunt, and please wear orange." but not "give up all your right of use and access while hunters also use the area".

 

The problem is, just by being there people can screw up a hunt. And it doesn't take a lot of complaints from hunters before land managers start to listen. In PA, State Game lands are paid for through the sale of hunting licenses, not taxes. It's the hunters who foot the bill. There are plenty of caches to be found in parks and non-hunting areas; during prime hunting seasons it's not a big deal to let the hunters have the woods. I'd much rather stay off game lands for a couple weeks a year then have our hobby banned there completely because a handful of angry hunters complained about a few disrespectful geocachers.

 

And you might be right that hikers are more to blame than us - but perception is reality. If they think we're to blame, then we're gonna be the ones targeted -- whether it's really us or not.

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Given how few cachers I ever see on the trail, it's more likely that standard hikers and other folks who have a right to be there are the real issue and the proximity of a cache gives focus for the blame.

 

I can understand "Respect that during hunting season you should do your best to not foul up a hunters hunt, and please wear orange." but not "give up all your right of use and access while hunters also use the area".

 

The problem is, just by being there people can screw up a hunt. And it doesn't take a lot of complaints from hunters before land managers start to listen. In PA, State Game lands are paid for through the sale of hunting licenses, not taxes. It's the hunters who foot the bill. There are plenty of caches to be found in parks and non-hunting areas; during prime hunting seasons it's not a big deal to let the hunters have the woods. I'd much rather stay off game lands for a couple weeks a year then have our hobby banned there completely because a handful of angry hunters complained about a few disrespectful geocachers.

 

And you might be right that hikers are more to blame than us - but perception is reality. If they think we're to blame, then we're gonna be the ones targeted -- whether it's really us or not.

 

Well said. Also thanks for pointing out who pays the bills.

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Given how few cachers I ever see on the trail, it's more likely that standard hikers and other folks who have a right to be there are the real issue and the proximity of a cache gives focus for the blame.

 

I can understand "Respect that during hunting season you should do your best to not foul up a hunters hunt, and please wear orange." but not "give up all your right of use and access while hunters also use the area".

 

The problem is, just by being there people can screw up a hunt. And it doesn't take a lot of complaints from hunters before land managers start to listen. In PA, State Game lands are paid for through the sale of hunting licenses, not taxes. It's the hunters who foot the bill. There are plenty of caches to be found in parks and non-hunting areas; during prime hunting seasons it's not a big deal to let the hunters have the woods. I'd much rather stay off game lands for a couple weeks a year then have our hobby banned there completely because a handful of angry hunters complained about a few disrespectful geocachers.

 

And you might be right that hikers are more to blame than us - but perception is reality. If they think we're to blame, then we're gonna be the ones targeted -- whether it's really us or not.

 

I am a hunter, and have hunted in many States and Countries while on active duty in the Military. I just have to say that I get more problems from other hunters than I do hikers and/or geocachers. I can't begin to count the number of times I have been on stand to just have a "late" hunter come trouncing through the area at prime times. Not much you can do about it, it’s their right to use the land too. Nowhere on the hunting license does it state that courtesy is mandatory (I sometimes wish it did). I think it is wrong to keep anyone out of an area that is public, safety rules are needed by all means (orange during hunting season) but not all out bans.

 

v/r

O-Mega

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I have actually been thanked by a hunter for walking through the woods during hunting season. It was deer season, I was in PA, where hunting is permitted in many parks, and I was puffing and panting my way up a large hill, following the trail. I was not at all quiet. When I got near the top I saw a hunter and I apologized for the noise I was making. He told me what noise I was making was actually serving to move the deer, which increased the hunters' chances for a shot at one.

 

Of course, deer season and other seasons are hunted in a different style.

 

What irks me about PAFarmboy's problem in WV is that he complied with all their rules. He jumped through their hoops. He had his caches in place and online, and evidently arbitrarily, someone decided they didn't want caches in "their" area, and they began removing them, including travelbugs and other swag. They made no attempt to contact PAFarmboy, nor have they done so yet, so he can claim his property and the various other items in the caches.

 

It's not really about us vs. hunters, it's about how a bargain was broken. One side of the bargain is that when we ask for and receive permission to place a cache, we comply with any rules the land owner or manager puts on us. In exchange for that, his side of the bargain is he lets us put our cache on his land.

 

What the WMA management did was wrong, plain and simple.

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What irks me about PAFarmboy's problem in WV is that he complied with all their rules. He jumped through their hoops. He had his caches in place and online, and evidently arbitrarily, someone decided they didn't want caches in "their" area, and they began removing them, including travelbugs and other swag. They made no attempt to contact PAFarmboy, nor have they done so yet, so he can claim his property and the various other items in the caches.

 

What the WMA management did was wrong, plain and simple.

 

Agreed. I'm really not familiar with WV WMA rules and regs, but when there's a permission system in place and we follow it, those on the "other" side should be required to honor it too. There are usually rules and regs in place for how "abandoned property" is disposed of by government officials; it usually can't just be thrown out. In many cases it needs to be held a certain period of time and then either auctioned or discarded. Not sure about that specific state though. I know PAfarmboy had permission - but is the permission requirement an officially sanctioned process, or was it just asking someone who might have authority to say yes? If it's an official process PAFarmboy has a good leg to stand on to fight this.. but if not... could be an uphill battle.

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I have to weigh in on this one too. I learned that in Ohio SGL's and WMA's do not permit geocaches. I had placed a sweet cache at Highlandtown and proceeded to contact the local manager (he was not around on the day I placed the cache) before submitting it for publication. He thought it was a great idea but had to check with his supervisor. We both learned about the ban and I removed the cache - no problem. I later learned from reviewer Keystone that indeed they are prohibited. I guess I could have saved a step!

 

Anyway, rules are rules and PAFarmboy did his best to play by the rules. The guy who confiscated his caches DID NOT! I would say there may be a case for theft here, unless PAFarmboy's property is returned.

 

I agree this is not us vs. them! Of course, there are always some who believe they are of a privileged class - I call them spoiled grownup brats. And they exist in the hunter's population AND the geocacher's population. Fortunately their numbers are small - unfortunately their voices are often loud (the term "tantrum" comes to mind). If the WV WMA's are for outdoor recreational activities then it seems to me you can hunt, fish, hike, birdwatch, geocache, photograph, etc. If they are exculsively for hunting and fishing that needs to be made clear.

 

As a side, if ya'll want some great public park geocaching, keep your eyes peeled for the second Ohio DNR series of geocaches in the state parks in the Columbiana County area. These are set out and sponsored by the local naturalists and rangers. The event will begin on Memorial Day and end on Labor Day.

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What irks me about PAFarmboy's problem in WV is that he complied with all their rules. He jumped through their hoops. He had his caches in place and online, and evidently arbitrarily, someone decided they didn't want caches in "their" area, and they began removing them, including travelbugs and other swag. They made no attempt to contact PAFarmboy, nor have they done so yet, so he can claim his property and the various other items in the caches.

 

What the WMA management did was wrong, plain and simple.

 

Agreed. I'm really not familiar with WV WMA rules and regs, but when there's a permission system in place and we follow it, those on the "other" side should be required to honor it too. There are usually rules and regs in place for how "abandoned property" is disposed of by government officials; it usually can't just be thrown out. In many cases it needs to be held a certain period of time and then either auctioned or discarded. Not sure about that specific state though. I know PAfarmboy had permission - but is the permission requirement an officially sanctioned process, or was it just asking someone who might have authority to say yes? If it's an official process PAFarmboy has a good leg to stand on to fight this.. but if not... could be an uphill battle.

To be clear.... there is no official policy for WV WMA's, save for the handful which are subject to the State Parks policy which requires a permit. PAFarmboy contacted me to confirm this prior to his spending many hours setting up these nice caches. I responded with information I believed to be accurate, and the last official communication I've heard, from 2004, to the foregoing effect. I suppose unofficial non-policies are subject to change and we are seeing that here. One can wonder whether a cache in the opposite corner of the state would meet with the game warden's enthusiastic acceptance. If so, that would mirror the experience with State Gamelands in Pennsylvania.

 

So, with no published policy to go by, it is up to the cache hider to determine what constitutes "adequate permission." The cache pages and forum posts don't say that the hider had *express* permission before placing the caches. But as a reviewer, in the absence of a published policy or other guidelnes issue, I don't worry about that, I assume that adequate permission has been obtained.

 

I could very well be wrong, and if the hider had express permission that was revoked without notice, why yes, that is a whole 'nuther level of suckitude.

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Well, guess I should finally pipe in here. I did ask Keystone for clarification on permits needed for Hillcrest, and according to the link he gave me, I didn't need one. I knew Keystone knew what he was taking about, as he is a pioneer in my area for geocaching. His caches are what got me started in the first place.

 

I must also state that I never contacted anyone at the WMA to ask for permission, as I assumed it was an open policy on geocaches. Here in PA, they are actually encouraged. If I would have needed a permit, I would have gladly applied for one. That is why, as soon as a finder emailed me about the WMA officer saying caches weren't allowed, I began the process of verifying the problem to try and work it out. I also assumed I could leave the cache active while I tried to track down someone who could clarify the situation.

 

As noted in the linked post from Ed_S, instead of giving me the opportunity to sort out the problem and work amiacably towards a solution, they sent someone in to do, and take, the cache. THAT is wrong, hands down, and I thank all of those who have voiced the same opinion. All they had to do was jot a note on my cache page and I would've disabled it immediately. I'm not a rogue cacher looking to make trouble. I take pride in my caches and looked forward to people enjoying the Hillcrest area. I've spent at least 50 hours hiking through their lately, and I've seen a total of 2 other people. I would think the WMA would want positive exposure for their area, and not discourage any outdoor activity that promotes Hillcrest.

 

My goal is now, at least, to get my items back, but also to have sit-down with the officers in charge and explain my side (I guess I should say OUR side) of the story.

 

PAFARMBOY

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As noted in the linked post from Ed_S, instead of giving me the opportunity to sort out the problem and work amiacably towards a solution, they sent someone in to do, and take, the cache. THAT is wrong, hands down, and I thank all of those who have voiced the same opinion. All they had to do was jot a note on my cache page and I would've disabled it immediately.

 

Unfortunately the same thing happened when the NPS cracked down on Appalachian Trail caches here in central PA last year. They pulled the caches first, then contacted the owners to say "come get your stuff". So that appears to be the modus operandi of land managers who disallow caches. It would have been nice for them to contact you, but I suppose there's no reason they need to be nice.

 

What irks me is, as others have said, geocaches are such a low impact activity compared to other things that occur, why single us out? They should go get the rogue campers, ATV riders, poachers, and those who illegally dump trash by the truckload and quit wasting precious time and resources on a harmess activity. Good luck with your meeting, I hope you're able to enlighten them... or at least get your stuff back.

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What irks me is, as others have said, geocaches are such a low impact activity compared to other things that occur, why single us out? They should go get the rogue campers, ATV riders, poachers, and those who illegally dump trash by the truckload and quit wasting precious time and resources on a harmess activity. Good luck with your meeting, I hope you're able to enlighten them... or at least get your stuff back.

When the illegal dumpers set up a website where they post the latitude and longitude coords for their dump sites, I bet that enforcement would step up.

 

When poachers and ATV riders and rogue campers set up websites where they say they'll be at a certain set of coordinates at 10:00 a.m. on Saturday, I bet that enforcement would step up.

 

Geocaches are low-hanging fruit.

 

I have a cache hidden in a Pennsylvania Gameland, and I was considering placing one in the same West Virginia WMA that PAFarmboy chose. I pay back cooperative land managers by hauling out bags of trash when I visit -- and hunting areas tend to be dumping grounds. Also on several occasions I have reported lawbreakers whom I've observed while hiking to a cache. If there are no caches, then I won't be visiting there to clean up trash and report any other violations of law that I might observe.

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Here in Westchester County, NY there is a set of grounds that were owned by the Rockefellers that became a unique state park in that it is a vast piece of farmland and "game" woods that is otherwise surrounded by a major urban (to the south)/suburban (to the north) area. It's unusually close proximity to NY City makes it extremely popular with hunters during the season.

 

Well naturally lots of caches were put in there and the authorities were concerned about safety during hunting season. But rather than be so draconian they put in a permit system and require that the caches be "disabled" on the sites during the hunting season (which is the late fall, winter, and early spring when they figure there'll also be less people just walking around to see the natural beauty who could also get hurt). Too bad they didn't see it that way for you all in WV. Good luck!

Edited by HaLiJuSaPa
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One more note of interest. Supposedly, my cache was confiscated because my first stage was a liablity issue due to the option of climbing a rock-solid ladder on an old water tower, but yet it says clearly in the WMA regulations that "Only portable tree stands may be used on public lands."

 

http://www.wvdnr.gov/hunting/PDFFiles/regs...HuntingRegs.pdf (PG 7 #10)

 

No issues with portable tree stands, but again, my cache is a liability? Hmmm.....guess I shoulda put stage one in a tree and left a tree stand in a large ammo can at the bottom of the tree. No problems then I'm assuming.

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....

The problem is, just by being there people can screw up a hunt. .....

 

As a Geocacher and a hunter I wonder if a couple more people walking around in an area really hurts a hunters chance of success. I'll bet over half my 30+/- deer have been driven to me by someone else that had no idea they had game out in front of them.

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Well, here’s the final story…..

 

Finally got hold of Gary Foster District 1 WM manager last week on the phone, after he didn’t aswer emails, and asked for clarification on my cache and others hidden on WMA in WV. He stood by their policy of removing abandoned property “according to their regs” (It is in there). He said he would do the same for any abandoned property, not just geocaches (He used portable tree stands as an example. Ironic to say the least.). He said this wasn’t his decision, but came from a higher up named Dick Hall.

 

When I mentioned the idea of disabling caches during hunting season, he wasn’t interested and said talk to Mr. Hall. When I explained my problem with the way my cache was handled, he passed the buck to the local in charge, Josh Alison. Still havent been able to get hold of him. Gary also said that Josh should still have my materials and they would be returned.

 

When asked about other caches hidden on WMA, he said, “Ïf we don’t know about them, then they must not be a problem. If they become a problem, they can be removed.” I didn’t even ask for permission to replace mine. I knew it was a dead issue.

 

Have tried to reach Josh Alison several times, but they don’t even have an answering machine at the Hillcrest office. I may donate one as a goodwill gesture and a tongue-in-cheek thank you for all their support.

 

Mr. Hall had had surgery, so wasn’t in til this week. Got hold of him Tuesday, and he was respectful enough, but has no problem stating that WMAs were not the place for geocaches. “The WMA were purchased for wildlife recreation …hunting, fishing, bird watching.” I asked him about a permit system…nope. Explained our philosophy on CITO….thanks but no thanks. Asked for leniency if caches were disabled during hunting season……restated first quote and added “Activities such as yours are available in State Parks and other areas. There are plenty of other places you can use. WMA are not meant for that purpose.”

 

I didn’t ask him about current caches already in place. He has the attitude all of them aren’t welcome. Again, he was respectful, yet had no give at all.

 

My thoughts…….If you already own caches in WMAs in WV, I would disable them during hunting season so they “don’t become known.” And you might want to add a disclaimer on your caches to “to tell an officer that you are hiking, not geocaching.” I take this ambigious approach because I got conflicting views from Mr. Hall and Mr. Foster.

 

If people still think I am the reason for future WMA caches never being put out, or ones already out, being removed, I apologize. It was never my intent to cause chaos in the system. I did everything I thought I needed to do to put out some enjoyable caches in a great area.

 

PAFARMBOY

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Finally got hold of the Hillcrest WMA and manged to secure the ammo can full of swag. All TBs and the geocoin are accounted for. Josh Allison was the one who I spoke to when I picked it up. He wasn’t the one who did/stole the cache. Josh told me it was their conservation officer. I didn’t ask for his name cause I don’t want to hold another grudge and feel I need to air my voice to yet another person. Case closed.

 

PAFARMBOY

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Well, here’s the final story…..

 

Finally got hold of Gary Foster District 1 WM manager last week on the phone, after he didn’t aswer emails, and asked for clarification on my cache and others hidden on WMA in WV. He stood by their policy of removing abandoned property “according to their regs” (It is in there). He said he would do the same for any abandoned property, not just geocaches (He used portable tree stands as an example. Ironic to say the least.). He said this wasn’t his decision, but came from a higher up named Dick Hall.

 

When I mentioned the idea of disabling caches during hunting season, he wasn’t interested and said talk to Mr. Hall. When I explained my problem with the way my cache was handled, he passed the buck to the local in charge, Josh Alison. Still havent been able to get hold of him. Gary also said that Josh should still have my materials and they would be returned.

 

When asked about other caches hidden on WMA, he said, “Ïf we don’t know about them, then they must not be a problem. If they become a problem, they can be removed.” I didn’t even ask for permission to replace mine. I knew it was a dead issue.

 

Have tried to reach Josh Alison several times, but they don’t even have an answering machine at the Hillcrest office. I may donate one as a goodwill gesture and a tongue-in-cheek thank you for all their support.

 

Mr. Hall had had surgery, so wasn’t in til this week. Got hold of him Tuesday, and he was respectful enough, but has no problem stating that WMAs were not the place for geocaches. “The WMA were purchased for wildlife recreation …hunting, fishing, bird watching.” I asked him about a permit system…nope. Explained our philosophy on CITO….thanks but no thanks. Asked for leniency if caches were disabled during hunting season……restated first quote and added “Activities such as yours are available in State Parks and other areas. There are plenty of other places you can use. WMA are not meant for that purpose.”

 

I didn’t ask him about current caches already in place. He has the attitude all of them aren’t welcome. Again, he was respectful, yet had no give at all.

 

My thoughts…….If you already own caches in WMAs in WV, I would disable them during hunting season so they “don’t become known.” And you might want to add a disclaimer on your caches to “to tell an officer that you are hiking, not geocaching.” I take this ambigious approach because I got conflicting views from Mr. Hall and Mr. Foster.

 

If people still think I am the reason for future WMA caches never being put out, or ones already out, being removed, I apologize. It was never my intent to cause chaos in the system. I did everything I thought I needed to do to put out some enjoyable caches in a great area.

 

PAFARMBOY

 

You know, growing up in WV in Charleston, I can tell you for a fact that the news stations would have a hayday with this stuff. Limiting the use of a recreational area that taxpayers paid for...

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