Trading swaps

[+cakemaker]

Normally, when out caching, I have a pocketful of swaps in case I discover an item that I fancy keeping otherwise it's TNLN for me.

Today I did a cache and noticed someone had recently taken 3 geocoins AND a TB, left nothing and signed TNLN ! Surely not fair even if they are trackable not trading items?!

[+Jaz666]

Swaps and trackables are different things.

Trackables are meant to keep on moving, so it's acceptable for someone to move them all along from one cache, otherwise sometimes some get stuck in caches for months on end - see the link in my sig line.

[+ryme-intrinseca]

Personally I very rarely take a TB or a coin unless I have something nice to swop, preferably another TB or coin - I prefer to 'discover' them instead.

 

However, I have noticed that trackable items are often not considered 'swops', and so people often take them and leave nothing.

 

I suppose it depends on whether removing them depletes the cache contents too much. IMHO, perhaps the person concerned should just have taken one of the items, and left the rest for someone else to find?

[+arock&ahardplace]

Swaps and trackables are different things.

Trackables are meant to keep on moving, so it's acceptable for someone to move them all along from one cache, otherwise sometimes some get stuck in caches for months on end - see the link in my sig line.

 

I agree completely. TBs and GCs are not swaps.

As the owner of a few travelling geocoins, I like to see them do just that - travel. I feel a bit sad if I see that a cacher or two has left my coin sitting. Then my coin is stuck!

I pick up almost every travelling item I find. I do this to try to help them on their way. Even if I cannot help it on its mission, I think that just keeping it moving helps it. At least it picks up a bit of mileage. The only time that I don't pick one up is when I know that my doing so will go against its mission.

Just my 2 pence worth.

[+SidAndBob]

Swaps and trackables are different things.

Trackables are meant to keep on moving, so it's acceptable for someone to move them all along from one cache, otherwise sometimes some get stuck in caches for months on end - see the link in my sig line.

 

I agree completely. TBs and GCs are not swaps.

As the owner of a few travelling geocoins, I like to see them do just that - travel. I feel a bit sad if I see that a cacher or two has left my coin sitting. Then my coin is stuck!

I pick up almost every travelling item I find. I do this to try to help them on their way. Even if I cannot help it on its mission, I think that just keeping it moving helps it. At least it picks up a bit of mileage. The only time that I don't pick one up is when I know that my doing so will go against its mission.

Just my 2 pence worth.

I think for once this one is pretty clear cut.

Some newbies think trackables are trading items, which can mess up the contents of a cache. It's fine to leave something when you take one, but you are certainly under no obligation to do so, but to take a trade item when you leave one causes a problem. I've seen this several times recently.

I can understand it's frustrating to turn up at a cache and find several trackables have all gone (personally I would alway leave a trackable in their place) but I would take them for the reasons stated above. I've had days when I've followed someone who's just cleared out every cache just before I got there leaving nothing.

I always try and share my trackables around rather than drop a bunch in one cache.

I usually pick up around 6 trackables each week, but I like to drop them in caches that have no trackables in them or caches I like. After all, why should the same few caches constantly be stocked with trackables?

[+ryme-intrinseca]

 

I can understand it's frustrating to turn up at a cache and find several trackables have all gone (personally I would alway leave a trackable in their place) but I would take them for the reasons stated above. I've had days when I've followed someone who's just cleared out every cache just before I got there leaving nothing.

 

Yes, I find this frustrating too, which is why I usually try and leave another trackable in its place. At the moment, though, I don't have any trackables (apart from some coins of my own that I am not ready to place in caches yet). Therefore, next time I find one, I will probably have to take it without leaving one in its place.

 

I will leave something I consider to be a 'good' swop item though, at least that will give the next person something to find and prevent the cache contents from being depleted too much, even if I have moved the coin. Just my personal approach, I don't mean that everyone should do this.

 

As for leaving a coin and taking something else, I have been guilty of this a few times, and didn't think I was doing anything wrong (see? I haven't reached 300 yet, until I do I feel I'm still a newbie!) . Rest assured, I have smacked myself on the wrists, and will not do it again.

Edited May 1, 2007 by ryme-intrinseca

[+rutson]

Trackables are NOT trading items and should be moved at every opertunity IMHO.

[+chizu]

Personally I'd prefer that any of my trackables ewre moved rather than discovered, so I treat others the same, even if I have nothing to swap. The only exceptopn is when there are several trackables in a cache and it is a well visited cache, in which case I would only take a maximum of 2 trackables.

 

As always with geocaching of course, everyone plays the trackables game their own way and no way is right or wrong.

[+Father Jack]

I often raid the local tb/coin hotels and leave nothing at that time. But usually a few weeks later I drop in tb/coins taking nothing.

 

They are meant to travel so I think it is acceptable to do this as long as the cache isnt left empty!

[+Mr'D]

If a cache is stuffed with TB's and coins I'd have no conscience in taking a coin or TB without leaving any swaps. However I do, rightly or wrongly, treat coins and TB's differently. Coins have an intrinsic value and I also think they do act as a bit of a magnet to cachers seeking a new icon. It's a difficult decision sometimes whether to simply 'discover' a coin/TB and leave it in the cache for others to seek/enjoy, or to take it and replace elsewhere. It's a subject I have struggled with before, but ultimately consider the particular cache discovery rate/inventory and my whim of the day.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Jon

[+dino-irl]

It's fine to leave something when you take one, but you are certainly under no obligation to do so, but to take a trade item when you leave one causes a problem. I've seen this several times recently.

One of my pet hates and despite a warning on all my cache pages one particular cacher repeatedly does it when leaving a TB in my caches

[+The Flying Boots]

We have no qualms about having taken 3 Geocoins and 3 TB's all from one cache last Sunday and not left any in return as we hadn't any to leave. Two we have dropped off near to home already and the rest will get spread around other caches next weekend.

We know we would rather see our own TB's on the move rather than stuck just being discovered.

[+Geo-Kate]

Ok, I'm in two minds on this.

 

The GENERAL rule fore caches is if you take something - leave something. That way there will always be enough contents in a cache regardless of what they are- coins, TBs, swaps.

Why treat trackables differently?

Surely swaps are just that, swaps. They aren'y usually kept, just used as trading fodder. Trackables are triding items that are, well, trackable.

 

I would never take a trackable and leave nothing in it's place. Somthing goes out, somethign goes in. It can't go wrong. On the other hand, I will often leave trackables and take nothing. Trading up, never down.

 

Saying that newbies mess it up by dropping a bug in and taking a trade item out is not really fair, IMHO. They are doing what the guidlines say to do. How are they to know different?

Edited May 2, 2007 by Geo-Kate

[Helen in Mustardland]

 

.... Trackables are triding items that are, well, trackable.

 

 

Nope. Trading items you can keep. Trackables you can't. Therefore it's not fair to leave a trackable item which wasn't yours, and take something out of the cache to keep for yourself.

[NickPick]

The difference between swaps and trackables is that if you want to, you are allowed to keep a swap item, but the point of a trackable is to move from cache to cache, either to achieve its objective (such as when racing TBs) or to provide its owner with enjoyment at seeing how far their TB has gone.

 

So the reason you don't have to leave a swap when taking a bug is that bugs are not normal swap items. Of course, if you want to leave a trade item when taking a TB, it adds to the value of that cache, so I don't think many people will complain. As for people taking a trade item when leaving a TB, well, that happens, and I think most people wouldn't mind having it politely pointed out that this is considered 'wrong'

 

I have seen instances (although I can't remember when or where) of TBs involved in a race where someone has logged "Didn't take the TB because I didn't have anything to trade for it". I can imagine that the TB owner was disappointed that their TB hadn't moved in the race when it could have.

 

To summarise - Cache swaps or trade items belong to the cache owner, so they should be swapped, but TBs belong to their owner, so their wishes should come first - move the bug ni a specific direction / move as far as possible etc.

[+Geo-Kate]

I can understand the logic, sort of. But where did this rule come from? I am sure most cachers that do not come here would not know this.

 

As I said before the guidlines state if you take something, leave something in it's place. How are the occasional cachers who do not go to the forums supposed to know this?

[+macroderma]

I always move trackables on - even if it only to the next cache I visit (ie dropping them off on the saem trip)

 

I do get caught out sometimes with their missions - many trackables have no mission attached and I have to take a chance that I will be able to assist them

 

The other variable is the time that the trackable has been in a cache. Presumably their owners want them to move (otherwise why release them). If a number have languished in a cache for a month or so I would move them all on

[+JollyJax]

One of my pet hates and despite a warning on all my cache pages one particular cacher repeatedly does it when leaving a TB in my caches

 

Any warning you may or may not put on your cache page really has no bearing on the subject. I dont always take a TB on a whim .. but equally I never trade items into a cache to replace a TB or a coin ... unless its another TB or coin ....

 

The TAT in the box stays where it is ... for me McDonalds toys and CDs nobody has ever listened to belong in the bin ... so I let those that like to swap these continue doing so .. and personally its TNLN ...

 

Remember its only a game .. and we play the game as we see fit within the general rules of the road.

 

Happy Caching - what ever that is for you

[Deceangi]

I can understand the logic, sort of. But where did this rule come from? I am sure most cachers that do not come here would not know this.

 

As I said before the guidlines state if you take something, leave something in it's place. How are the occasional cachers who do not go to the forums supposed to know this?

 

The etiquette for TB's and Geocoins has developed over time, and is not included in the main guidelines. The TB Forum covers this point in more detail

 

A TB is not a trade item, you do not have to put something in the cache to take a TB, and you should not take something from a cache in trade for a TB. You should take something from a cache, place the TB and a trade item.

[+Mr'D]

I suppose the easy way is to TNLN, but then one would contravening two of the three requirements for logging a cache!

A rule/guideline that should be changed. Sorry I digress...

[Edgemaster]

I can understand the logic, sort of. But where did this rule come from? I am sure most cachers that do not come here would not know this.

 

As I said before the guidlines state if you take something, leave something in it's place. How are the occasional cachers who do not go to the forums supposed to know this?

A few of the older TBs I have picked up have had a largish (Groundspeak-provided?) laminated tag attached to them explaining this etiquette. I still remember it always began with This is not a normal trading item!

[+rutson]

Did it look a lot like this?

[+Haggis Hunter]

It is due to my cache contents depleting the whole time and seeing logs that said left TB took such and such that I now have the following text on all my aches that can takes swaps -

 

Travel Bugs are the property of the person who has released them. Therefore I do not count them as a swap item.

Please DO NOT take an item in exchange for any Travel Bugs that you may wish to leave in this cache.

 

It hasn't stopped the greedy sods from emptying my caches (see log), but it does appeared to have stopped the swapping of contents with TB's??

Edited May 2, 2007 by Haggis Hunter

[Edgemaster]

Did it look a lot like this?

Aah, yes, I was looking for where they came from...

[+rutson]

"Print Info Sheet" under "Trackable Item Options" on the RHS of the TB page.

[+cakemaker]

I've taken note and learned from the interesting comments contained in this thread. From now on I will....

 

1) never take a trading item in exchange for leaving a tracking item

2) not feel guilty about taking a tracking item to move on, when I may not have a trading item with me

3) Always trade up

 

However, I still find it strange to read TNLN when tracking items HAVE been taken, although I can see why some folk relate the phrase solely to trading items.

[+ryme-intrinseca]

 

1) never take a trading item in exchange for leaving a tracking item

2) not feel guilty about taking a tracking item to move on, when I may not have a trading item with me

3) Always trade up

 

 

No. 3 I do anyway (or TNLN). No's 1 and 2 - well, as I said in my last post, I have obviously got this all a*** about face, as I was doing the exact opposite.

 

This needs to be made clearer on gc.com somehow. I am a regular forum user and have been caching since 2004, but I never realised that this was wrong before. Apologies for the wrath I've probably incurred from dozens of cache owners!

Edited May 2, 2007 by ryme-intrinseca

[+Us 4 and Jess]

If there were 20 travel bugs and 20 geocoins in a cache I would feel no regret about taking them all and leaving nothing. (But I would need big pockets )

 

Travellers are there to do exactly that travel, they are not swap items.

 

I don't think we have ever "dicovered" anything yet if they are in a cache they are there to be moved.

 

My pet hate though as a few have mentioned is folks who leave travellers and take a swap item, we have had to replenish several of our caches because of this.

 

Mandy

Edited May 2, 2007 by Us 4 and Jess

[+walkergeoff and wife]

If there were 20 travel bugs and 20 geocoins in a cache I would feel no regret about taking them all and leaving nothing. (But I would need big pockets )

 

Travellers are there to do exactly that travel, they are not swap items.

 

I don't think we have ever "dicovered" anything yet if they are in a cache they are there to be moved.

 

My pet hate though as a few have mentioned is folks who leave travellers and take a swap item, we have had to replenish several of our caches because of this.

 

Mandy

Except, perhaps for TB and geocoin hotels or swap caches. I am planning to do a cache that is designated as a geocoin exchange, and has this on its page:

 

'The cache currently has four geocoins for us all to enjoy. Please exchange the geocoins for others but ensure that it always has a minimum of three so that other cachers visiting can enjoy viewing them. The icons can be collected by logging the tracking numbers.'

 

I have no problem in conforming with this. Currently it has 4, so I might take one (if it is still there) - even though I currently have no geocoins.

[+Donmoore]

This will always cause debate. My view is i'd rather see 1 or 2 trackables be discovered if you don't know what there mission is. But i certainly don't see them as a swap item as the owner of the cache owns all the swap items and people swap things they would like in return for the cache owners swaps. Trackables are owned by the owner of the trackable and they are wantingto share that with the caching community.

 

So discover them, help them on their mission. But don't swap them or log that you had nothing to swap so you didn't take the pretty little coin thingy.

 

Hope i cleared that up

[+4 Badgers]

My pet hate though as a few have mentioned is folks who leave travellers and take a swap item, we have had to replenish several of our caches because of this.

 

D'you know what? I'd never even thought of this.....

 

Thank you all for having enlightened me!!!!!

 

Badger #1

[+blueboots]

I keep learning all the time. I do take trackables, without swapping, to move them on. I always swap for non-trackable items. I didn't realise you could log a 'discover' without taking the trackable and I have already seen trackables but left them in the cache (won't from now on). I also thought you had to sign the log in order to log a find but have recently noted some logs where the box was not even opened. Reading the forums seems the best way to become familiar with the rules.

[+SidAndBob]

I also thought you had to sign the log in order to log a find but have recently noted some logs where the box was not even opened.

You do have to sign the log to log a find. The owner is quite within their rights to delete the log entry if there is no corresponding log in the cache, unless some other arrangement was agreed.

[+martlakes]

Hi

It's always been pretty clear to me that there are two entirely different categories of things in caches. One is swaps, which if you want to trade/swap you try and do so fairly. The other is trackable items like coins and TBs, which are travelers / hitchhikers. These are not things you keep and you only take them if you can move them on quite quickly, preferably helping them on any mission they have.

 

I find it hard to appreciate that anyone finds this confusing but some obviously do from the posts here and the odd log where people have 'swapped' coins for swag. So maybe the basic info that's available needs to be clearer and include an intro to coins and TBs. The info is definitely not clear enough if people can go caching for several years and not appreciate the difference between swaps and travelers.

 

Maybe the 'rules' of take something/leave something need clarifying.

"If you wish to take something from the cache 'treasure', leave something of equal or better value. - it should be a fair swap. The 'treasure' does not include trackable items like TBs or coins which are not swap items. If you can help a TB or a coin travel on it's way, move it along and log that you have it and which cache you leave it in. If you can't help it you can discover it by noting its tracking number and leave it where it is."

 

I think caches which impose restrictions about 'swapping' coins or TBs so there are always coins in the 'hotel' probably just confuse the issue for new folk. I don't support these restrictions as bugs and coins are meant to travel not be part of a cache inventory. I think the point of TB hotels is to provide a useful service by being handy places to leave coins for the next stage of their mission, not as places where I can guarantee to find coins. Seemed to work like that for a Motorway Mayhem cache I had/have at J36/M6 where people called in to drop bugs and coins they'd found in the lakes or which were going that way. Consequently there were often coins and TBs there which people also took while dropping off. Didn't need any artificial restrictions from me - people were free to drop/take/discover any bugs or coins.

 

So, yes, the info should be clearer in the FAQ or 'rules' or whatever it is people go to first.

[+blueboots]

I also thought you had to sign the log in order to log a find but have recently noted some logs where the box was not even opened.

You do have to sign the log to log a find. The owner is quite within their rights to delete the log entry if there is no corresponding log in the cache, unless some other arrangement was agreed.

Thanks for clearing that up for me SidandBob. I did think that was a bit odd.

[+gazooks]

There is a cache owner near me who states in his listings that visitors should never leave the cache(s) devoid of a TB or Geocoin. I think its to help attract more cachers to his caches - if its always got a TB or GC.

 

Like Martlake I agree that TB's and GC's are 'free' and should not have cache restrictions placed on them. If the TB or GC owner has placed restrictions then thats a different story.

 

Swaps is Swaps and TB's/GC's are not (IMHO)

 

[+*mouse*]

There is a cache owner near me who states in his listings that visitors should never leave the cache(s) devoid of a TB or Geocoin. I think its to help attract more cachers to his caches - if its always got a TB or GC.

 

Like Martlake I agree that TB's and GC's are 'free' and should not have cache restrictions placed on them. If the TB or GC owner has placed restrictions then thats a different story.

 

Swaps is Swaps and TB's/GC's are not (IMHO)

 

 

I most defintely agree...

 

Caches with restrictions on the minimum number of trackables fustrate me - why should a travel bug end up getting stuck in a cache just because the cache owner wants more visitors?? Hide your cache somewhere interesting instead!! I'm happy to confess to gaol breaking and rescuing TB's that need it...

 

Like others have said swaps are swaps, trackables are trackables and I treat them seperately. I will always pick up trackables if I can help them with their mission or if they have been in a cache too long and don't feel guilty about taking them.

 

I rarely swap but always leave something - with no caches of my own any more I feel this is my way of contributing to the game. As long as we all end up improving the contents of a cache them that's the most important thing.