Garmin 60csx shortcomings

[wildgoose007]

While the 60csx does most of what it does well, there are few rather major problems with some of its functionalities. I am interested to hear what others think of these issues, and whether there's any hope of it ever being fixed.

 

1) Wrong elevation inside airplane, making the elevation reading useless.

 

Garmin says they can't turn off the barometer. I can think of many half day (ok, maybe one-day) engineering solution to the problem, one being export a "GPS Elevation" field to the list of fields. Using GPS on the plane, especially on a long trip, is one of the joys of owning a GPS unit, but the more expensive 60csx does it worst than the 60cx.

 

There were some posts about using the "fixed elevation" mode as a work around. Unfortunately my quick test shows that it doesn't work.

 

2) Fail to acquire a position fix unless 6+ satellites are in view.

 

In theory, you need 3 satellites for a 2D fix, and 4 satellites for a 3D fix. My trusted eMap implements this very consistently. The 60csx however is far more arrogant. Sometimes, it won't compute a solution with 5 solid bars. Generally that's not an issue (it usually sees more satellites), but in an airplane, it's extremely frustrating seeing 5 solid bars, but no lock. (Unfortunately sometimes it's all there is in half of the sky.)

 

Despite what others have reported, #1 and #2 makes the 60csx very frustrating to use on a plane.

 

3) In 2D mode, the GPS does not compute a speed, despite the position being updated each second. I've reported this problem to Garmin and hopefully it'll be addressed.

 

It probably falls into the same category as "not being tested by QA due to the sensitive receiver always seeing more satellites."

 

4) Frustrating map panning due to the GPS coordinate taking up 1/4 of the screen.

 

When you pan the map, you are usually trying to see what's around you. Why clutter the map with an almost useless GPS coordinate? Just hide all the fields if the user has any displayed, and show me the map. If the user pauses, display the coordinate in a popup, not as a fixed field on the top of the screen.

 

The 2610 in comparison does this the extremely well. It show the map full screen by remove all on-screen clutter if you pan the map.

 

5) Compute the sunrise/sunset based on current speed/heading.

 

The current sun-rise and sun-set time when you are traveling in the air not very useful. Would be much better if there's an option to calculate it based on current heading and speed. It makes taking those sun-rise and sun-set photos in the plane easier.

[+hogrod]

While the 60csx does most of what it does well, there are few rather major problems with some of its functionalities. I am interested to hear what others think of these issues, and whether there's any hope of it ever being fixed.

 

1) Wrong elevation inside airplane, making the elevation reading useless.

 

2) Fail to acquire a position fix unless 6+ satellites are in view.

 

3) In 2D mode, the GPS does not compute a speed, despite the position being updated each second. I've reported this problem to Garmin and hopefully it'll be addressed.

 

4) Frustrating map panning due to the GPS coordinate taking up 1/4 of the screen.

 

5) Compute the sunrise/sunset based on current speed/heading.

 

 

1. To answer your first issue, I believe one of the menus displays elevation data acquired from gps signal, this should be accurate to within a couple hundred feet(usually within 50ft). I own a 60cx so I have no barometric sensor, so the pressurized cabin issue effecting the barometer of the 60csx doesn't effect me.

 

2. I have once seen the issue where you are required 5-6sats(solid bars) and still shows no lock, though 99% of the time I only need 4 sats to get a position fix.

 

3. I have only ever seen my 60cx in 2d mode once, and that was only for a few seconds. maybe you need to use a external antenna for your application?

 

4. when I need to pan the map, I zoom out, pan the map then zoom in where I am going. I maybe move the cursor an inch. If you stay at a low zoom I agree panning is a chore.... I like the coordinates displayed at the top, I hope they never change that.

 

5. I'm probably wrong but I believe sunset/sunrise info is calculated from your current position, so wouldn't just re-entering the that screen return updated data? also am I wrong to assume that above 600-800ft you can see farther than the curve of the earth and would hence be able to see the sun much sooner in the morning and later at night when in a plane?

[+pcunningham]

1) Wrong elevation inside airplane, making the elevation reading useless.

 

Garmin says they can't turn off the barometer. I can think of many half day (ok, maybe one-day) engineering solution to the problem, one being export a "GPS Elevation" field to the list of fields. Using GPS on the plane, especially on a long trip, is one of the joys of owning a GPS unit, but the more expensive 60csx does it worst than the 60cx.

 

There were some posts about using the "fixed elevation" mode as a work around. Unfortunately my quick test shows that it doesn't work.

 

If you are travelling in an airliner, or any other pressurized aircraft, the GPSr barometer will show cabin altitude, not actual altitude. To get GPS elevation on a 60CSX go to the satellite page, then menu, then select GPS Elevation. This way, the altitude is calculated from the satellites not the barometer.

[+CiscoHiker]

I agree with #1. Would be so nice to have the GPS elevation as a field that could be added on the map page (or other pages). As you could really get a good idea of your altitide in an airplane.

[+Prime Suspect]

None of these are issues to me. There are other things I'd rather see added, rather than trivialities for people who like to play with their GPS on airplanes.

 

My Vista had a nice feature, where you could bring up the waypoint page for the waypoint you're heading to, by simply holding down the Find button. On the 60, this action brings up the MOB function, which I will never need to use. I'd like the option to change this button action to mimic that of the Vista.

 

And yes, I know about hitting the Find button twice to access recent waypoints. Unfortunately, when using the Geocaching mode, it doesn't add the waypoints to the list.

[gpsonbike]

1) Wrong elevation inside airplane, making the elevation reading useless.

 

Garmin says they can't turn off the barometer. I can think of many half day (ok, maybe one-day) engineering solution to the problem, one being export a "GPS Elevation" field to the list of fields.

 

4) Frustrating map panning due to the GPS coordinate taking up 1/4 of the screen.

 

When you pan the map, you are usually trying to see what's around you. Why clutter the map with an almost useless GPS coordinate? Just hide all the fields if the user has any displayed, and show me the map. If the user pauses, display the coordinate in a popup, not as a fixed field on the top of the screen.

I totally agree with 1) and 4). I wish there was a GPS elevation available as in NYC the barometric pressure changes so drastically that the GPS doesn't auto-calibrate appropriately. Having to press a gazillion of buttons to go into the satellite menu is not a useful way to retrieve GPS altitude.

 

I also agree that the GPS coordinates are a waste of space while panning a map. I notice that at least one other person actually likes it which means that Garmin needs to add this as a selectable option.

 

Lastly may I add a request for a "grade" data field that shows how steep a hill is. The "glide ratio" is useless outside aviation use and either way the 60CSx is not that good in planes

[Point Blank]

The "fixed elevation" work around does work, but you have to download the track to your computer and use MapSource to see it. Not really convenient on an airplane, unless you have your laptop with you

 

I'm with you. It should be an option which elevation you display. Hopefully someday.

[+Gadget_Cacher]

you can calibrate the altimeter just as you can the compass...have you tried to recalibrate it to see if it fixes the problem?

Edited April 25, 2007 by chandljl

[gpsonbike]

you can calibrate the altimeter just as you can the compass...have you tried to recalibrate it to see if it fixes the problem?

Altimeter calibration DOESN'T do anything inside a cabin. Even if you were to calibrate it once, the pressure inside the cabin would be kept pretty much constant regardless of the altitude changes so you wouldn't get accurate readings afterwards ...

[+Gadget_Cacher]

be that as it may you can also tell it what your current elevation is as well. If the captain says you are cruising at 30,000 ft then go from there....honestly this whole thing seems to be more of a pet peeve than an actual shortcoming.

[+Renegade Knight]

be that as it may you can also tell it what your current elevation is as well. If the captain says you are cruising at 30,000 ft then go from there....honestly this whole thing seems to be more of a pet peeve than an actual shortcoming.

 

It's an issue with all GPSs that have an altimiter that is used for determining your elevation. It's not specific to the 60CSx.

[DogFleazJR]

None of these are issues to me. There are other things I'd rather see added, rather than trivialities for people who like to play with their GPS on airplanes.

 

 

Yep, more and more planes these days have their own maps, speed, altitude, outside temp and so on available that carrying a GPS on board is less and less interesting.

 

I like my CSx, even the barometer, which I find much more accurate when hiking and backpacking and provides much more reliable tracks than the GPS altimeter.

 

I wish the unit beeped louder when auto routing and I wish the turn notifications came a little bit earlier, but I really wouldn't call any of these "shortcomings."

 

Just my thoughts...

[+egami]

I wish the unit beeped louder when auto routing and I wish the turn notifications came a little bit earlier, but I really wouldn't call any of these "shortcomings."

 

Agreed. Considering the unit isn't really designed for auto navigation I also wouldn't consider it a shortcoming.

[+Renegade Knight]

....

5) Compute the sunrise/sunset based on current speed/heading.

 

The current sun-rise and sun-set time when you are traveling in the air not very useful. Would be much better if there's an option to calculate it based on current heading and speed. It makes taking those sun-rise and sun-set photos in the plane easier.

 

This one is intresting.

 

It would update as you move. Thus the info would be for where you are.

 

You want it for where you are going to be if you keep up the speed and heading.

Naturally this would also update as there are slight changes to speed and heading...

 

So nothing would really be different.

[+Gadget_Cacher]

more than anything i am surprised that GPS devices are not part of the "dont have on during flight" list.

[wurthless]

None of these are issues to me. There are other things I'd rather see added, rather than trivialities for people who like to play with their GPS on airplanes.

 

 

Yep, more and more planes these days have their own maps, speed, altitude, outside temp and so on available that carrying a GPS on board is less and less interesting.

 

I like my CSx, even the barometer, which I find much more accurate when hiking and backpacking and provides much more reliable tracks than the GPS altimeter.

 

I wish the unit beeped louder when auto routing and I wish the turn notifications came a little bit earlier, but I really wouldn't call any of these "shortcomings."

 

Just my thoughts...

I like having it (gpsr) cuz you can look at the map and see what your flying over. Wish I'd know about the gps elevation on my last trip. Would be nice to toggle between the two....

[wildgoose007]

#1 and #4 is really annoying. Perhaps my title should've been "things that are really annoying with the 60csx".

 

I like to have speed/elevation displayed on my main map screen. To me it is the 2 most important GPS fields. But, when you have data fields displayed on the map, and then try to pan the map, the added coordinate shrinks the map area quite a bit and makes it difficult to see your surrounding without re-configuring the map-page to remove the data-fields.

 

Perhaps auto-hide any data-fields during map panning, while still display the coordinate would be a better thing to do. But the current design leaves much to be desired. They do this very well on the 2610 car unit by removing all on-screen clutter during panning. So obviously someone at Garmin knows how to do this correctly, unfortunately it's just not the 60csx PM.

 

Regarding #1, anyway you slice it, the current implementation is problematic. The 60csx is a very configurable device, elevation, being the 2nd most important attribute of a GPS device (after horizontal position), should be more configurable on the 60csx than it currently is. If Garmin has the bandwidth and man power (and space on the device) to put in those (almost) useless games, they surely have the engineering resource to make the elevation display more configurable. The fact that you hear so many people talk about it is an indication that it's not done correctly.

[wildgoose007]

It would update as you move. Thus the info would be for where you are.

 

You want it for where you are going to be if you keep up the speed and heading.

Naturally this would also update as there are slight changes to speed and heading...

 

The sunrise and sunset is calculated based on your current position. Let's say you are traveling 700mph east, and at the current position, the sun will set in ~6 hours. But in 6 hours, you may have traveled 4000 miles and crossed a few time-zones. It would be nice if the device can tell you that, based on your current speed/heading, the sun will set in 3 hours instead of 6 hours.

 

It's true that planes changes heading slightly from time to time, but even a coarse calculation based on speed/heading is far better than a static calculation based on the current position alone. In fact, one can go a step further and always calculate the sunrise/sunset based on position+speed/heading, since the current implementation is a subcase where speed is 0.

[wildgoose007]

4. when I need to pan the map, I zoom out, pan the map then zoom in where I am going. I maybe move the cursor an inch. If you stay at a low zoom I agree panning is a chore.... I like the coordinates displayed at the top, I hope they never change that.

 

5. I'm probably wrong but I believe sunset/sunrise info is calculated from your current position, so wouldn't just re-entering the that screen return updated data? also am I wrong to assume that above 600-800ft you can see farther than the curve of the earth and would hence be able to see the sun much sooner in the morning and later at night when in a plane?

 

There may be some difference in the sunrise/sunset time due to difference in elevations, but I'd say the difference between sea level and 30,000ft (5.6 mile/10km) is insignificant compare to the ground position change at 600 miles/hour that will affect the sunrise and sunset time.

 

To sum it up, I wish the product manager for the 60csx used it on a flight. Most of the issues I've bought up relates to using it on a flight. All the hardware is there, I just wish the software does a slight better job at it.

[wildgoose007]

more than anything i am surprised that GPS devices are not part of the "dont have on during flight" list.

 

Ah, I'd rather not get into this debate. If you can use your laptop or palm pilot, I should be able to use my GPS and play those silly Garmin games!

[+BWidget]

It is on many airlines 'do not operate' list.

 

more than anything i am surprised that GPS devices are not part of the "dont have on during flight" list.

[wildgoose007]

Yep, more and more planes these days have their own maps, speed, altitude, outside temp and so on available that carrying a GPS on board is less and less interesting.

 

But they are never available when you pass by an interesting landmark! Oh, what's that lake? What's that mountain?

 

I like my CSx, even the barometer, which I find much more accurate when hiking and backpacking and provides much more reliable tracks than the GPS altimeter.

 

I know, I like it too! That's why I bought the 60csx instead of the 60cx. I just wish I have the option to view the GPS elevation continuously during a flight, because it's far more accurate than the barometer in that situation, and isn't the GPS device all about being accurate??

[+JohnInDC]

Yeah, I was really surprised that GPS Elevation wasn't one of the configurable data fields. I like using my 60csx on airplanes too and it's exasperating to be informed constantly that you're at 7500 feet. Yes, you can always punch around to find out what your GPS elevation is (was) at any moment, but the fun of the thing is seeing the information live. I am willing to suppose that a toggle for the barometer is too hard to implement, but the GPS elevation data is *in* the machine - how hard would it be to make it available in real time?

 

(Otherwise I love the unit.)

[+egami]

more than anything i am surprised that GPS devices are not part of the "dont have on during flight" list.

 

Below in an excerpt of general practices of U.S. airlines....you'd have to check with each individual airline for more specific details.

 

However, a couple reasons GPSr's are not restricted any more than laptops, CD players and other similar electronics is due to the the fact that they don't transmit a signal and can't be used to detonate a device. Also they don't cause interference.

 

Devices that can operated during cruise

Typically, the following can be used once the aircraft reaches 10,000 feet (about five minutes after takeoff) until the approach phase about 15 minutes before landing: laptop computers, hand-held computers, devices that can compose or read email and text messages without transmitting or receiving, cell phones in "game" or "airplane" mode, digital cameras, DVD or CD players, GPS receivers, hand-held games, calculators, PDAs, medical devices such as pacemakers, electronic nerve stimulators, hearing aids, digital watches.

 

 

Devices that may not be operated at any time

AM or FM radios, televisions, scanners, two-way radios, remote controlled devices, wireless mouse, other transmitters (with the exceptions noted earlier)

[DogFleazJR]

more than anything i am surprised that GPS devices are not part of the "dont have on during flight" list.

 

 

However, a couple reasons GPSr's are not restricted any more than laptops, CD players and other similar electronics is due to the the fact that they don't transmit a signal and can't be used to detonate a device. Also they don't cause interference.

 

 

Any device with batteries can be used as a detonator.

 

Since a GPS can also act as an altimeter, in theory, it could be used to detonate a device at a specific altitude.

[+JohnInDC]

Any device with batteries can be used as a detonator.

 

Since a GPS can also act as an altimeter, in theory, it could be used to detonate a device at a specific altitude.

 

If anything that's a good reason to keep GPS devices out of checked luggage. I don't know what advantage a GPS device would afford to a terrorist who had managed to smuggle explosives into the passenger compartment. In that case they presumably could detonate the explosives manually, whenever they wanted, using the battery in their iPod or wristwatch.

[GeoidPS]

What about that stupid electronic compass??? Needs to be recalibrated every time you change the batteries. Is inaccurate, and to get a half decent reading, you need to be perfectly level and still. A dime store compass works better.

[+Prime Suspect]

Any device with batteries can be used as a detonator.

 

Since a GPS can also act as an altimeter, in theory, it could be used to detonate a device at a specific altitude.

 

 

Of course, that idea's only been around for about 40 years.

[wurthless]

What about that stupid electronic compass??? Needs to be recalibrated every time you change the batteries. Is inaccurate, and to get a half decent reading, you need to be perfectly level and still. A dime store compass works better.

I'm in the habit of calibrating the compas EACH day before I use it. And when it's in your hand already, just push a few buttons and go to the compass page ,,,or dig in your pocket for the little dime store thing,,,what's easier? Users choice, for me the dial and digital readout on the GPSr is worth the trouble,,,,that's just me

[frantort]

I agree. I have found mine to be very helpful and sufficiently accurate if occasionally calibrated.

What about that stupid electronic compass??? Needs to be recalibrated every time you change the batteries. Is inaccurate, and to get a half decent reading, you need to be perfectly level and still. A dime store compass works better.

I'm in the habit of calibrating the compas EACH day before I use it. And when it's in your hand already, just push a few buttons and go to the compass page ,,,or dig in your pocket for the little dime store thing,,,what's easier? Users choice, for me the dial and digital readout on the GPSr is worth the trouble,,,,that's just me

Edited April 27, 2007 by frantort

[+starstrider]

Devices that can operated during cruise

Typically, the following can be used once the aircraft reaches 10,000 feet (about five minutes after takeoff) until the approach phase about 15 minutes before landing: laptop computers, hand-held computers, devices that can compose or read email and text messages without transmitting or receiving, cell phones in "game" or "airplane" mode, digital cameras, DVD or CD players, GPS receivers, hand-held games, calculators, PDAs, medical devices such as pacemakers, electronic nerve stimulators, hearing aids, digital watches.

 

 

I know this is off-topic but, hmmm...what are those poor chaps with pacemakers supposed to do during takeoff and landing? Switch them off?

 

Just havin' some fun.

Edited April 27, 2007 by starstrider

[+egami]

Any device with batteries can be used as a detonator.

 

Since a GPS can also act as an altimeter, in theory, it could be used to detonate a device at a specific altitude.

 

But not any device can do so remotely by sending a signal. By detonate it I wasn't referring to it being used as the actual detonating device, but rather the device sending a remote signal.

Edited April 28, 2007 by egami

[+Night Stalker]

I don't know about other airlines, but Delta still has the GPS on the do not user anytime list for their flights.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Here's a list of Airlines which OFFICIALLY APPROVE/DISAPPROVE of the use of GPS receivers during CRUISE. (This actually means pilot discretion in all cases.)

 

http://gpsinformation.net/airgps/airgps.htm

[gpsonbike]

I just got off the phone with Garmin tech support. I requested to make available the GPS altitude as a datafield and the customer service representative said that a lot of people have requested this feature already. He said that they are planning on giving us this feature in an upcoming update! I guess if more people call, they will expedite the process ...

 

I also requested the "grade" of a hill as a datafield. You know, the same one as the Edge 305 has, which shows how steep a hill is as a percentage 5%=5 feet altitude change over 100 feet traveled. The representative said he was surprised that this was not already offered on the 60CSx. If anyone else from this forum is interested, please call and ask for the "grade" of a hill to be implemented as a datafield as well.

[wildgoose007]

I just got off the phone with Garmin tech support. I requested to make available the GPS altitude as a datafield and the customer service representative said that a lot of people have requested this feature already. He said that they are planning on giving us this feature in an upcoming update! I guess if more people call, they will expedite the process ...

 

Thank you! Thank you! It's good to know.

 

It depends on who you talk to I guess. I called to request "auto-hiding" the data fields in the map display when you pan the map, and all I got was a solid "NO, it won't ever change. It's the way it has been since the original 60cs". I even explained how it works on the 2610 and that was beautiful, "It's a car unit sir, it was designed for a different purpose". OK.

 

It is the least intrusive way I can think of to give the user a larger map display when the user pan the map (which the coordinate pop-up will show). You still have the coordinate so won't piss off people who use the coordinate, and no need to update any manual/documentation either.

 

To see what I mean, do this:

 

1) Enable 2 data fields in the map page. (I have speed/elevation). Although the data fields take up some space, the map itself is still quite usable. The 2 fields takes up about 22% of the map.

 

2) pan the map, the extra popup for the coordinate is almost as big as the map fields, and together takes up about 40% of the map area. The map area now is quite small and difficult to see your surroundings.

 

What I am proposing is just hide the data fields during panning, while still display the coordinates. (Personally I'd prefer if they hide the coordinates as well, until you stop, and the coordinates would pop up under the cursor).

 

Basically this falls into the category of "no one really tested that particular configuration (displaying 2 data fields in the map page) when the product is designed". Had they tested it, and panned the map, someone would've realized something needs to be done.

[+GSVNoFixedAbode]

I just got off the phone with Garmin tech support. I requested to make available the GPS altitude as a datafield and the customer service representative said that a lot of people have requested this feature already. He said that they are planning on giving us this feature in an upcoming update!

 

Bet they won't be updating the 60CS firmware

[+Night Stalker]

Don't count on it. It isn't much of a leap to do the 60 at the same time. They are basically the same unit.

[gpsonbike]

2) pan the map, the extra popup for the coordinate is almost as big as the map fields, and together takes up about 40% of the map area. The map area now is quite small and difficult to see your surroundings.

 

What I am proposing is just hide the data fields during panning, while still display the coordinates. (Personally I'd prefer if they hide the coordinates as well, until you stop, and the coordinates would pop up under the cursor).

I am totally with you! I would love to have an unobstructed view of the full map when scrolling, no datafields, no pointer coordinates no NOTHING ! I usually have 2 datafields enabled on the map screen and I am having the exact same problem you point out.

 

Now the rep I talked to, suggested to also email new feature requests. You can do that either directly to the email address: techsupport@garmin.com or through the page: http://www8.garmin.com/contactUs/techSupport.jsp. Lastly he recommended using the map error reporting for cases when the GPS crashes during auto-routing or just navigating: http://www8.garmin.com/cartography/mapSource/errorForm.html

 

Seriously, if we make a coordinated effort and collect the specific features we would like to see implemented and then all of us call Garmin, I bet you they will add them to the next firmware. Most of them anyway are a day's worth of coding ...

 

Lastly, I really think that Garmin Tech support is great! I actually told them that on my phone call, meaning that one of the primary reasons I choose Garmin was the tech support. I had already called them a bunch of times *before* I bought my 60CSx and their responsiveness along with the frequent firmware updates made me go for Garmin.

[+hogrod]

To see what I mean, do this:

 

1) Enable 2 data fields in the map page. (I have speed/elevation). Although the data fields take up some space, the map itself is still quite usable. The 2 fields takes up about 22% of the map.

 

2) pan the map, the extra popup for the coordinate is almost as big as the map fields, and together takes up about 40% of the map area. The map area now is quite small and difficult to see your surroundings.

 

What I am proposing is just hide the data fields during panning, while still display the coordinates. (Personally I'd prefer if they hide the coordinates as well, until you stop, and the coordinates would pop up under the cursor).

 

You think its bad on the 60csx, try using a vistaCX, the screen is even smaller and the issue is much more pronounced. Since I don't use data fields on the map screen I only see the coordinate popup and it takes up 20% of the screen.

I do however sometimes enable map data fields and think you may be onto something with your idea to hide the data fields when panning the map, and this seems like it could be a very easy fix for garmin.

[+jotne]

On the 76S (an older Garmin GSP) you can set three data filed on top, instead of two like the 60 series.

This is in half the font size, so it takes less space on the display.