If it was the "real" thing it wouldn't be allowed...

1.5k · April 15, 2007

So is it just me?

I am confused as to why religous, political, etc caches are specifically not allowed, but coins with the same themes are. I can't put a cache out that is connected to any of these things, but I can make a coin about it, with GS's approval and tracking on their site.

Along the same lines of not allowed but allowed are the coins that depict swiss army knives, alcohol and parts of guns. Why is it ok on a coin, but not ok in a cache? Once again, sends mixed messages.

People in these forums are far more "in the know" than the average cacher out there. Seeing these coins in caches a cacher may very well not realize that while it's "ok" to have coins that look like these things, it's not ok to put the real thing in. And why isn't it? These items are prohibited as trade items, I don't get it.

Don't get me wrong, this is not directed towards the people who have or will make this type of coin, I just think it's sending mixed messages on GS's part. Seems rather hypocritical to me.

3.5k · April 15, 2007

Sounds like a good question for Mr Roth. I've wondered about it myself.

3.1k · April 15, 2007

OOHH,OOHH much cheaper way for me to leave a S&W 357 in my cache as a FTF prizes. That just inspired me to create a coin that is shaped as a specific style of weapon. Since knifes have been done I am moving to firearms.

1.6k · April 15, 2007

Because Groundspeak isnt footing the bill for the coins, perhaps?

They however, can dictate whats allowed in caches, but I dont think they will have much control over coins unless they were footing the bill.

I see no problem with coins of all matters, IMO its personal expression at its finest.

And, if they did limit it, Im pretty sure collectors and minters would just make untrackables, or find another tracking method online for those coins that didn't "meet" criteria.

Lets face it, coins are good for Groundspeak - nothing wrong with that, but it would be unwise for them to limit the content allowed on them.

1.5k · April 15, 2007

My issue is with trackables that they do control approval over.

1.6k · April 15, 2007

Again, IMO it would be bad for business. The coin producers are paying for the coins, and paying Groundspeak for the tracking info.

I have never been offended by the Swiss Army Knife coins, or any others, in fact, I love the SAK coins. I dont think Ive ever seen one Ive been offended over. (If I did, I would likely just not buy it.)

I understand the concern you are mentioning, but I also understand why it hasnt been limited. I see both sides, but I personally havent seen anything on a coin that I dont see on TV or in a store. (Alcohol, knives, multitools, guns, etc.)

And, lets face it, you really cannot get drunk, shoot, maim, or kill someone with a geocoin shaped like a gun, or with alcohol on it. Its virtually harmless. Well, unless you slingshot one at someones head at an extremely high speed. That might hurt. (But it might be something as benign as a personal coin shaped like a Butterfly, or even a Boxer dog!)

Id hate for that to happen, might give Butterflies and Dogs a bad name!

(Totally intended to be tongue in cheek!)

1.4k · April 15, 2007

Well, there is a difference between a knife and a coin shaped like a knife. However, TPTB don't instill much confidence in me. If it appears they are slightly schizophrenic, it may just be lack of control or good business sense. Not that I am suggesting that may be true, just giving my impression.

1.5k · April 15, 2007

Nobody said anything about being offended.

What I am saying is why is it such a leap to think that if GS promotes coins of these sort that it wouldn't be ok to put the real thing in a cache or set up a cache of the sort.

1.6k · April 15, 2007

I dont see approving something as promoting it.

But the difference between the two is as danoshimano said - a coin cant hurt someone. A real knife or gun can.

2k · April 15, 2007

Hmmmm....

1.5k · April 15, 2007

C'mon, nothin' more than popcorn? I know you've got an opinion

1.5k · April 15, 2007

And a gun sitting on a counter by itself isn't going to hurt anyone either, give me something more please.

It certainly is endorsing it when they approve it, close enough for me.

By the way, I have a knife, a gun and am a proud card carrying NRA member, so this isn't some peace activist agenda I'm on....

April 15, 2007

There was another thread a while back that sort of touched on this. A cacher was trying to place a cache that was "cancer survivor" themed, if I remember correctly. The cache wasn't allowed because of the cancer theme.

The person that hid the cache was upset because they allow diabetes TB tags and such, but not caches. There was a lot of discussion going on in that thread, although I didn't really follow it after I read it the first time. It may provide you some answers that you are looking for if you can find it.

1.2k · April 15, 2007

Greets, I have seen on ebay, silver(plated) bullets ment to be left as swag, yes prompting "Geocaching" swag in the title. I know it's a bit off topic, but non the less raises a eyebrow about this type of swag / items of violence in caches. Un-primed bullets but just the same. Think this is way wrong

1.6k · April 15, 2007

And, Im the opposite, I own no guns, and really dont support gun ownership of any type not used for hunting/protection. Meaning, I dont think everyone SHOULD own a gun. (But thats ANOTHER topic thats irrelevant here!)

But, I am a big one for freedom of expression - as long as it hurts no one.

I see both sides, but as an artist, I always get a little troubled with the idea of limiting creativity. And, coins are the most creative and artistic we can get in caching - along with the containers.

2k · April 15, 2007

"If it was the "real" thing it wouldn't be allowed..., Coins made to look like prohibited trade items"

But..... It's not real. Right?

2k · April 15, 2007

Aren't a huge percentage of geocaches in "AMMO" cans?

1.5k · April 15, 2007

Make a non-trackable sig item or coin and be as creative as you want, fine.

But to me it's a double standard when they allow it for coins, but not caches placed.

You are totally missing the point.

I think that cancer survivor caches SHOULD be allowed, but if they aren't then I don't think GS should be tracking coins of the same theme.

2k · April 15, 2007

Make a non-trackable sig item or coin and be as creative as you want, fine.

But to me it's a double standard when they allow it for coins, but not caches placed.

You are totally missing the point.

I think that cancer survivor caches SHOULD be allowed, but if they aren't then I don't think GS should be tracking coins of the same theme.

Why does making it nontrackable make it right in your mind? a coin shaped like a grenade is still a grenade shaped coin trackable or not!

Are you opposed to supporting Groundspeak?

Edited April 15, 2007 by 57chevy

1.5k · April 15, 2007

My issue is their double standard, not the themes themselves. I can have issue with them and still go on caching.

If I was opposed to supporting GS I wouldn't be a premium member or pay them to have my coins be trackable, kinda a silly question.

2.6k · April 15, 2007

My issue is their double standard, not the themes themselves. I can have issue with them and still go on caching.

If I was opposed to supporting GS I wouldn't be a premium member or pay them to have my coins be trackable, kinda a silly question.

I agree 100% with Hula Bum.

April 15, 2007

So is it just me?

I am confused as to why religous, political, etc caches are specifically not allowed, but coins with the same themes are. I can't put a cache out that is connected to any of these things, but I can make a coin about it, with GS's approval and tracking on their site.

An example, I see many religious items in caches.

Edited April 15, 2007 by SoCalGeocoins

1.2k · April 15, 2007

Aren't a huge percentage of geocaches in "AMMO" cans?

Hi Tim ,Yes ammo cans, as they are durable containers, you have a valid point, ammo can coins are made, and the eariest one is most sort after does that mean "fake" bullets should be left in them ? Next we will have bullet coins to go in the ammo cans. If anyone makes one, I get the XLE and 1 of all finishes , As the concept is born for a finders fee, and 5% of sales profit

Traveling Chief ?? (I think) Is producing the revolver with bullet backs now ?

1.5k · April 15, 2007

I call that cornerstone's personal coin. Which was non trackable and didn't need approval, carrying no endorsement by GS, cool by me. Not sure what your point is.

2k · April 15, 2007

My issue is their double standard, not the themes themselves. I can have issue with them and still go on caching.

If I was opposed to supporting GS I wouldn't be a premium member or pay them to have my coins be trackable, kinda a silly question.

I didn't think so but, trackable coins generate revenue. I kinda like geocaching, and if Groundspeak wants to let someone have a coin shaped like a throwing star or the star of David, whatever, it's fine with me. Don't buy the coin.

1k · April 15, 2007

Most of the "prohibited items" aren't banned because of their meaning, connotation, etc. They're banned because they pose a physical danger or risk to either the cachers, or the cache itself. (examples include weapons, drugs, lighters, cigars, etc.)

As for commercial stuff in caches...anything that has a brand name on it that you leave for swag is technically commercial in nature. Companies put their names on products to advertise, but I don't think anyone views that cool "Garmin" keychain, package of "Sharpie" markers or a "Nike" baseball cap in a cache as commercial, because it's not explicitly urging you to buy something, go somewhere, or do something. Same goes for the coins... putting a logo, idea, or whatever on a coin isn't explicitly pushing someone to do anything. I'm willing to bet that if someone tried to make a GC trackable coin that said "Joe Smith, Attourney at Law" on the front, and "call my lawfirm at 555-1324 for a free consultation" on the back, Groundspeak would squash it just like they do commercial caches.

1.5k · April 15, 2007

The revenue loss would not be that great, but the statement of continuity would be.

And let me save the time.... "If you don't like it don't buy it", there the reply is done.

24.7k · April 15, 2007

So is it just me?

...

Don't get me wrong, this is not directed towards the people who have or will make this type of coin, I just think it's sending mixed messages on GS's part. Seems rather hypocritical to me.

It's not just you asking the question.

But here is your answer.

The travel bug tag and the coin number have no political, commercial (other than this site), religious, or other agenda. They are just tags that allow tracking. That's from the site.

The person who buys the number attaches it to a coin or attaches a travel bug to the tag. Caches have waypoints but you don't buy a tag and attach it to the cache. I supposed if you paid to list your cache it would be different. Come to think of it when commercial enterprises have paid good money they do get to have exceptions to the rules.

Back on track. The cache is listed and reviewed before it's active. The travel bug is active once activated with no review.

In the end I think it's about control. This site has more control over cache listings because of how the process works. The trackable process is different. This site has less control, and any one travler has less impact. Policing the world to make it free of offensive travelers, especially the coins that are signature items is much more difficult.

As for coins, even without tracking numbers this site has no control I can make a traveler and track it on another site, make a coin with no tracking and load it with religious symbology etc. It would still be my signature item. When you get down to it, neither, this site nor anybody else has any business telling me that my signature item should represent something other than who and what I am.

While I'm at it, travelers, and signature items are different from caches and have always had different rules. Speaking of that people have often left tracts in caches. This site doesn't shut down the cache becasue of that. Nor do they do so for a traveler.

I'll close this post by saying, I really would not care if caches had more blatant agendas. They should reflect their owners as much as their signature coins do.

Edited April 15, 2007 by Renegade Knight

1.5k · April 15, 2007

I wouldn't care if their agendas were blatant either, I agree it reflects the person. If I don't like the agenda I don't have to go find the cache.

Broken record... my issue is with the double standard.

1.5k · April 15, 2007

I don't get how they have less control over the trackable part of a coin that they approve the design for. Sure it can be tracked on another site, that's not the issue here.

24.7k · April 15, 2007

....Along the same lines of not allowed but allowed are the coins that depict swiss army knives, alcohol and parts of guns. Why is it ok on a coin, but not ok in a cache? ...

I really don't think my cache would be denied if I painted pictures of guns, knives, alcohol, certain hemp based leaves as part of the camo pattern.

The issue on those items is that kids can't own them, but they can flip through a magazine depicting all of them. The other issue is that parks didn't like knives in caches, but they would have no objection if a litter crew or kid found a geocoin even if it did depict banned things.

The ban on specific items solved problems. Problems the coin depictions don't have. Thus you don't need to extend the ban to censoring what is depicted on a coin.

2k · April 15, 2007

The revenue loss would not be that great, but the statement of continuity would be.

And let me save the time.... "If you don't like it don't buy it", there the reply is done.

Have you seen the amount of coins that's come down the pike in the past 3 years? Each tracking number on each individual coin has to create a huge revenue. Just trying to be a realist, and, YES I understand your concern for continuity. But there is a difference in leaving a coin shaped like a knife and actually leaving a knife. It could be the tool to educate the younger generation on proper usage of that particular tool. And ultimately couldn't this question be asked to the folks that make the big decisions directly? I've found that the "Straight from the Horses mouth" answers normally carry the most weight.

I really hope you find a satisfactory answer to your question. I'm callin it a nite.

Edited April 15, 2007 by 57chevy

1.5k · April 15, 2007

Violent movies don't hurt people, but a lot of people won't let kids watch them because of what they "represent". Coins won't "hurt" people, but if GS doesn't want the items in a cache, then why would they allow a coin in there that "represents" the exact thing they won't allow.

24.7k · April 15, 2007

... if GS doesn't want the items in a cache, then why would they allow a coin in there that "represents" the exact thing they won't allow.

Because the representation doesn't pose the problem that the real things did, that caused them to be either banned or just discouraged as a bad idea.

For example.

Animals will seek out food. They won't seek out food pictured on a coin.

1.5k · April 15, 2007

So they don't actually care about anything other than making sure they don't get sued for someone getting hurt by a pocket knife or such?

What about the "agendas", how does that play?

2.6k · April 15, 2007

The way I see it is, if it makes money for GS then it's okay, if it don't then it isn't okay. (I had to say what everyone else was thinking but to afraid to say.)

Edited April 15, 2007 by 501_Gang

24.7k · April 15, 2007

The way I see it is, if it makes money for GS then it's okay, if it don't then it isn't okay. (I had to say what everyone else was thinking but to afraid to say.)

Well dang it I think you are right. Premium members should be able to place caches with agendas! Heck Yeah!

April 15, 2007

I think your points are valid. What you are asking for is a clear statement of social responsibility as policy to be enacted at all levels of the GS business model. Since TPTB do not have to answer to stockholders and do not require government funding there is little need for them to so.

1.3k · April 15, 2007

Is there a rule against putting a pocket knife in a cache?

If I find any food or beverage in a cache, I pull it out and trash it.

As for a coin or sig item, maybe they allow expressions.

Edited April 15, 2007 by nielsenc

1.5k · April 15, 2007

Oh you know me, I'm not afraid to say it, and so I will, I think that they have sold out, it's all about the money. If it makes them money then it's ok, if it's just a cache where they're not getting money out of, then it's not.

And yes, social responsibility would be nice too.

Edited April 15, 2007 by Hula Bum

1.3k · April 15, 2007

Oh you know me, I'm not afraid to say it, and so I will, I think that they have sold out, it's all about the money. If it makes them money then it's ok, if it's just a cache where they're not getting money out of, then it's not.

And yes, social responsibility would be nice too.

If that was the case, wouldnt we have more 'APE' style caches?

Edited April 15, 2007 by nielsenc

24.7k · April 15, 2007

.... What you are asking for is a clear statement of social responsibility as policy to be enacted at all levels of the GS business model. Since TPTB do not have to answer to stockholders and do not require government funding there is little need for them to so.

In the social responsibility light then you have to weigh in that there is nothing actually wrong with the things banned from caches that are not already banned by law in society. Then the real problem becomes, that they are not allowed in caches.

Very often the answer comes from how you frame the problem.

April 15, 2007

Oh you know me, I'm not afraid to say it, and so I will, I think that they have sold out, it's all about the money. If it makes them money then it's ok, if it's just a cache where they're not getting money out of, then it's not.

How does not censoring geocoins "make them money"? Ya lost me here...

1.5k · April 15, 2007

I would love to see more caches with the same "agendas" as some coins have. Why are they different except that GS makes money off the coins? Why can't we have caches about different religions? About cancer? About smoking?

I would love to find a swiss army knife in a cache, it would be great swag. Why can't parents keep their kids from grabbing it and hurting themselves so I can enjoy that kind of find? Family friendly is different than child safe. Family friendly to me means no guns, porn, flame throwers (ok, so a bit dramatic, but you get my gist).

2.6k · April 15, 2007

Oh you know me, I'm not afraid to say it, and so I will, I think that they have sold out, it's all about the money. If it makes them money then it's ok, if it's just a cache where they're not getting money out of, then it's not.

How does not censoring geocoins "make them money"? Ya lost me here...

They sell the tracking numbers for the coins. If the don't approve a coin, they don't sell the tracking numbers, therefore not making the money.

I too would love to find a SAK or any other knife in a cache since I collect swords, knives and such.

Edited April 15, 2007 by 501_Gang

24.7k · April 15, 2007

I would love to see more caches with the same "agendas" as some coins have. Why are they different except that GS makes money off the coins? Why can't we have caches about different religions? About cancer? About smoking?

I would love to find a swiss army knife in a cache, it would be great swag. Why can't parents keep their kids from grabbing it and hurting themselves so I can enjoy that kind of find? Family friendly is different than child safe. Family friendly to me means no guns, porn, flame throwers (ok, so a bit dramatic, but you get my gist).

I think you are side tracked a bit.

The ban on most items in a cache is either for the good of the cach (no food) or to make land managers more comfortable with having caches on their lands. That benefits geocaching indirectly. If it were up to TPTB I suspect they would not have followed such a Politically Correct path in the bannings.

That said since depicting a item is not the same as the actual item the ban didn't need to extend beyond the real deal. So by minimizing bans to the minimum needed we retain more freedom in trackables.

Political, Religious, and Commercial agenda's are another thing.

3.8k · April 15, 2007

GS makes money on the trakable coins with the various themes. They don't make a penny on caches that are set.

That's why you will see a theme, item, or whatever on a trackable coin that will never be allowed in a cache.

Simple economics.

I would have never guessed you are a member of the NRA.

April 15, 2007

Well, there is a difference between a knife and a coin shaped like a knife. However, TPTB don't instill much confidence in me. If it appears they are slightly schizophrenic, it may just be lack of control or good business sense. Not that I am suggesting that may be true, just giving my impression.

I want to say your choice of descriptive terms is somewhat offensive. The careless use or description of schizophrenic persons or the illness itself generalizes persons with this mental illness in a light which can only be derogative and demeaning.

I live a person with this illness and people just throwing comparisons out there need to learn there are many people who read these and can feel less of themselves because someone does not truly understand the illness of schizophrenia.

To learn more about this illness or how it affects people go to

Schizophrenia.com

3.1k · April 15, 2007

GS makes money on the trakable coins with the various themes. They don't make a penny on caches that are set.

That's why you will see a theme, item, or whatever on a trackable coin that will never be allowed in a cache.

Simple economics.

I would have never guessed you are a member of the NRA.

This about sums it all up.

Including the part about the NRA.... We are members too.

On another note...has GS turned down a coin because of its non-cache worthiness nature?

I think they have turned down coins because they were not PC (or so I heard) or because the design of the GC logo.....but has there been any other reasons.

24.7k · April 15, 2007

Well, there is a difference between a knife and a coin shaped like a knife. However, TPTB don't instill much confidence in me. If it appears they are slightly schizophrenic, it may just be lack of control or good business sense. Not that I am suggesting that may be true, just giving my impression.

I want to say your choice of descriptive terms is somewhat offensive. The careless use or description of schizophrenic persons or the illness itself generalizes persons with this mental illness in a light which can only be derogative and demeaning.

I live a person with this illness and people just throwing comparisons out there need to learn there are many people who read these and can feel less of themselves because someone does not truly understand the illness of schizophrenia.

To learn more about this illness or how it affects people go to

Schizophrenia.com

That's all well and good but you failed to offer up another word that does as good of a job describing things as the word you don't like. I understood what he said, and not once did I conjur up an image of anyone with a mental illness. Instead I understood that he was saying that TPTB's policy on geocsoins, trackables, & caches does not seem to have focus and varies making it somewher confusing to folks like Hula Bum who are trying to see the bigger picture but have a hard time deriving it becaue the varied focus of policy leaves a shotgun pattern that's hard to narrow down. That's a mouthful. Describing the policy in simpler terms would be a good thing. I also did not find it derogatory or demeaning to people who are schizophrenic.

If it was the "real" thing it wouldn't be allowed...

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