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I want to make a multi cache where the coordinates are hidden inside culverts. I had used a permenant marker before and it faded away in no time at all. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to mark the concrete permenantly in an easy way? (Not interested in using paint)

 

Thanks!

Here is a suggestion, Dont do it, It violates the guidelines.

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Oh. I had no idea. Is this the section your referring to?

 

Caches that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a hiding place, a clue or a logging method.

 

The guideline go on to say that there may be exceptions. If I was able to get permission from the city, would this be ok?

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If the signage location is in a very well-hidden and out-of-the way place, such as deep inside a storm drain or sewer pipe (do NOT place a sewer cache unless you have training and gear for dealing with poisonous hydrogen sulfide gas and for dealing with the nasty microbes and other things which you will encounter), or halfway down the side of a 60 foot tall retaining wall, then the reviewers may allow a very small removable piece of signage such as a small waterproof adhesive label imprinted with the needed information, such as coordinates for the next stage. It should be small and unobtrusive, and should be able to be removed easily, leaving no trace behind. Another alternative, if there is a ferrous metal surface available, is to use a small label (as mentioned above) affixed to a same-sized piece of flexible magnetic sheet, the size of a business card or much smaller. This is totally removable; the signage may be removed without a trace.

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Well, this a good question for me, because I am planning a cache inside and on old concrete bunkers and batterys. I was thinking of small, laminated paper coordinates, but what would be the best way to attach them and have them be completely removeable? Would duct tape hold on concrete?

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another idea I have kicked around for some time and doesn't technically deface property is to use concrete sealer. it goes on clear and remains invisible till till it has gotten wet. you could stencil coords or symbols then cachers would have to wet the area for the hidden numbers to be revealed. I have not tried this yet but in theory I think it would work.

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Well, this a good question for me, because I am planning a cache inside and on old concrete bunkers and batterys. I was thinking of small, laminated paper coordinates, but what would be the best way to attach them and have them be completely removeable? Would duct tape hold on concrete?

 

I don;t think duct tape would hold. Concrete is very dusty and also there might be water running through the culvert....

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I want to make a multi cache where the coordinates are hidden inside culverts.

Most of the culverts around here are Galvanized. I've been pondering putting a waypoint way deep inside a culvert, using a piece of thin plastic held in place with a rare earth magnet. I have a metal alphanumeric stamp set which I would use to stamp the coords to the plastic.

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Let's see...

  • Violent individuals hanging out in secret
  • Black widows
  • Hydrogen sulfide gas
  • Heavy gasses, causing oxygen deprivation
  • Flooding
  • Getting lost in a place with very bad GPS reception
  • Getting lost in the dark
  • Having no one be able to find you if you get hurt
  • Various other and sundry risks associated with confined spaces
  • Wild animals that have come to call the place home
  • Every disease in the city conveniently consolidated into one place

Sounds like fun. This actually used to be a favorite passtime of mine, exploring drain pipes.

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So 'Don't do it, it's against the guidelines, a bad idea and a bad precedent' just set off a conversation on ways to get around it?

 

Does being possible mean that it should be done?

Ed, I am surprised at your rather innacurate summarization of the thread contents so far. You have been active in these forums long enough to know that while TPTB and reviewers frown on using markers to mark directly on public infrastructure components such as concrete surfaces, there has been general agreement across numerous threads on this topic that use of small, non-invasive, non-permanent and totally removable means of signage (including but not limited to those methods which I had briefly iterated in my earlier email), particularly when placed out of public view, are often acceptable. In fact, there are a great many excellent multi-stage and puzzle geocaches located across the world (and across the USA) which employ such unobtrusive, non-invasive, non-permanent and removable signage methods.

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Let's see...

  • Violent individuals hanging out in secret
  • Black widows
  • Hydrogen sulfide gas
  • Heavy gasses, causing oxygen deprivation
  • Flooding
  • Getting lost in a place with very bad GPS reception
  • Getting lost in the dark
  • Having no one be able to find you if you get hurt
  • Various other and sundry risks associated with confined spaces
  • Wild animals that have come to call the place home
  • Every disease in the city conveniently consolidated into one place

Sounds like fun. This actually used to be a favorite passtime of mine, exploring drain pipes.

Not a bad list! In my view, you have managed to list about one-third of the advantages and fun aspects of placing geocaches deep inside storm drains! Several of my most popular Psycho Urban Caches employ such placements, and some of the most popular caches in the USA also employ such hides, and, as least for my Psycho Caches, the vast majority of finders leave lengthy logs singing the praises and the joys of each of those features which you have listed, plus many more! Best of all, some of these caches are located in storm drain pipes which drain unremediated EPA-listed toxic waste sites in old industrial areas of old cities, and thus cache hunters also have to face the prospect of crawling on their bellies through wastewater heavily laden with toxic waste runoff.

 

Oh, and there is NO GPSr reception at all inside storm drains. The way it is normally done for each stage is to provide the coordinates for the opening of the storm drain pipe, and then instruct the cacher to proceed for 800 feet on a magnetic bearing of 030 degrees and then turn left and proceed for 300 feet on a magnetic bearing of 290 degrees, and then to reach into the small sump pit filled with toxic yellow sludge and find the small waterproof plaque holding the stage info for the next stage.

 

Lastly, one of the most fun things about such storm drain caches in our area is that we live in a region where rabies is endemic, and where rabid raccoons, skunks and opossums are often found inside storm drains -- there is nothing better to get your adrenalin going just after sunrise on a grey Saturday morning than confronting a snarling and drooling rabid racoon face-to-face while crawling on your belly deep inside a toxin-filled storm drain morning while hundreds of spiders are crawling all over your face, neck and eyes and while you feel all sorts of unimaginable insects slowly crawling up your sleeves and up your pants legs as you lie almost immobilized in the dark!

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Correct. I even own one.

Yes! Same here; I own several, and they were published after comprehensive review by multiple (and highly respected and very conscientious and meticulous) reviewers! In fact, I believe that you published one of them yourself (and that cache is very popular among the more serious local cachers, as witnessed by their lengthy and happy online log entries!)

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gorrilla tape works great... much stronger than quack tape

In my area, while it not totally verboten, we tend to frown on using gorillla tape or duct tape unless absolutely necessary, because, unlike many other types of waterproof adhesive labels, such industrial tapes may leave behind a small residue of gummy adhesive when removed from the surface. Of course, if the setting is one located deep inside a storm drain, the authorities are likely not going to be very concerned about a tiny amount of gummy residue left on a concrete pipe surface! I tend to use waterproof inkjet labels which I purchase online and then print on my inkjet printer; my tests in my laboratory and in the real world have shown that these labels and the print/ink (once imprinted upon the treated waterproof labels, that is) are very hardy and totally waterproof for years of hard usage and exposure to the elements.

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i was recently at a cache where coords were spraypainted in letters a foot high.

 

i'd have thought it inappropriate, but they were hard to see, what with all the other spraypainted grafitti. i mean heavily spraypainted. on every surface. over a period of many years.

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Ummm guys, I think your missing my point here. LOL I have NO intention of hiding a caching inside a storm drian that is hundreds of feet long. Just looking for a way to hide the coordinates inside a culvert that runs from one side of the road to another. Large, usually dry, no turns, easily see the other side etc, mayb e what? 30 feet wide? The actual cache would be hidden in the woods.

 

And Vinny and Sue Team, are you serious about duct tape leaving behind a small amount of residue for a reason not to use it? Not being sarcastic in the least bit here, but a serious question. Would some city official seriously give you a hard time for that residue? He would probably be standing ankle deep in old chip bags, cigarette butts, pop bottles etc while looking for that residue! LOL

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Ummm guys, I think your missing my point here. LOL I have NO intention of hiding a caching inside a storm drian that is hundreds of feet long. Just looking for a way to hide the coordinates inside a culvert that runs from one side of the road to another. Large, usually dry, no turns, easily see the other side etc, mayb e what? 30 feet wide? The actual cache would be hidden in the woods.

 

And Vinny and Sue Team, are you serious about duct tape leaving behind a small amount of residue for a reason not to use it? Not being sarcastic in the least bit here, but a serious question. Would some city official seriously give you a hard time for that residue? He would probably be standing ankle deep in old chip bags, cigarette butts, pop bottles etc while looking for that residue! LOL

Hmmm... several points here, as follows:

 

First, I believe that we -- at least mtn-man and I -- did indeed answer your question about types of appropriate and workable signage for use as a signage stage in a storm drain culvert. You are welcome to use my suggestions (and those of mtn-man) as you wish, if you wish.

 

And, to my best knowledge, all of us have only been talking about emplacing informational signage stages inside such structures; none of us have been takiing about emplacing actual cache containers inside such structures, although there are at least four very famous caches in the USA which do embody exactly that method of emplacement!

 

And yes, both mtn-man and I were totally serious in offering our caveats and cautions about the use of Gorilla tape and duct tape on such surfaces. Indeed, I know several reviewers who will nix a cache application instantly if and when they learn that the applicant used duct tape to emplace the signage stage; I largely agree with their decisions. And, please note that I did indeed add a qualifying statement to my caution about adhesive residue; please refer to my earlier email for the exact quote.

 

Overall, it is my impression that at least three of us (mtn-man, RenegadeKnight and myself) have indeed answered your initial question in entirety. You are free to close this thread if you wish.

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Ummm guys, I think your missing my point here. LOL I have NO intention of hiding a caching inside a storm drian that is hundreds of feet long. Just looking for a way to hide the coordinates inside a culvert that runs from one side of the road to another. Large, usually dry, no turns, easily see the other side etc, maybe what? 30 feet wide? The actual cache would be hidden in the woods.

 

And Vinny and Sue Team, are you serious about duct tape leaving behind a small amount of residue for a reason not to use it? Not being sarcastic in the least bit here, but a serious question. Would some city official seriously give you a hard time for that residue? He would probably be standing ankle deep in old chip bags, cigarette butts, pop bottles etc while looking for that residue! LOL

 

Something that you might want to check on is whether or not you would be Trespassing. There was a hide here in Kentucky that was in a culvert under a road. On one side it had a "No Trespassing" sign. This cache is no longer open. Anyhow These culvert usually belong to the city or county for drainage purposes. Need to check for your local Trespassing laws.

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Oh, and there is NO GPSr reception at all inside storm drains.

 

Nonsense! All you have to do is climb a rebar ladder in one of the vaults and hold your GPS up to the grate.

 

Then you'll get just enough reception to know how lost you really are.

 

Lastly, one of the most fun things about such storm drain caches in our area is that we live in a region where rabies is endemic, and where rabid raccoons, skunks and opossums are often found inside storm drains -- there is nothing better to get your adrenalin going just after sunrise on a grey Saturday morning than confronting a snarling and drooling rabid racoon face-to-face while crawling on your belly deep inside a toxin-filled storm drain morning while hundreds of spiders are crawling all over your face, neck and eyes and while you feel all sorts of unimaginable insects slowly crawling up your sleeves and up your pants legs as you lie almost immobilized in the dark!

 

Oh, come on! Not every rabid raccoon is agressive! You're way over-stating things. At least half of them have the passive form and wouldn't even think of coming after you.

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i was recently at a cache where coords were spraypainted in letters a foot high.

 

i'd have thought it inappropriate, but they were hard to see, what with all the other spraypainted grafitti. i mean heavily spraypainted. on every surface. over a period of many years.

 

That isn't good at all. Personally I might mention that to my local reviewer.

 

gorrilla tape works great... much stronger than quack tape

 

I saw this in the store the other day and was going to mention it, but have no practical experience with it. The box says that it sticks to rough surfaces so it may work.

 

My favorite is a copper plant tag. You use a pen or sharp object to write the coordinates on the soft copper. They are durable and totally waterproof and once they tarnish are pretty camoflaged. You might have a hard time finding a place to fasten one inside a concrete pipe though, but perhaps you can manage something at a seam.

 

an101s1b.jpg

Edited by briansnat
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Oh, and there is NO GPSr reception at all inside storm drains.

Nonsense! All you have to do is climb a rebar ladder in one of the vaults and hold your GPS up to the grate...

Last time one of our local cachers tried this, the grate they chose was in the center of a busy local road. In this case, the cacher's hand and his GPSr were crushed under the tires of a passing truck within one minute of attempting this feat...

 

Lastly, one of the most fun things about such storm drain caches in our area is that we live in a region where rabies is endemic, and where rabid raccoons, skunks and opossums are often found inside storm drains -- there is nothing better to get your adrenalin going just after sunrise on a grey Saturday morning than confronting a snarling and drooling rabid racoon face-to-face while crawling on your belly deep inside a toxin-filled storm drain morning while hundreds of spiders are crawling all over your face, neck and eyes and while you feel all sorts of unimaginable insects slowly crawling up your sleeves and up your pants legs as you lie almost immobilized in the dark!

Oh, come on! Not every rabid raccoon is agressive! You're way over-stating things. At least half of them have the passive form and wouldn't even think of coming after you.

Sigh! Yes, I had employed in that post, for the sake of brevity, some verbal shortcuts, and that assumption was one of them. But yes, you are right... at least 38% of raccoons and skunks, when infected with rabies, will exhibit the "dumb" form. Of course, I am not sure that the latter situation is much better than the "agressive rabid" situation -- do you really want to come face-to-face in a tiny stinky, wet, toxic and spider-infested tunnel with a rabid raccoon in the dumb phase of rabies who insists on licking every inch of your face and drooling all over it at the same time while you lie there helplessly?

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I want to make a multi cache where the coordinates are hidden inside culverts.

Most of the culverts around here are Galvanized. I've been pondering putting a waypoint way deep inside a culvert, using a piece of thin plastic held in place with a rare earth magnet. I have a metal alphanumeric stamp set which I would use to stamp the coords to the plastic.

 

On one occasion where I needed a low profile magnetic stage, I uses a thin sheet magnet (like they us on the back of magnetic business cards). I used a permanent marker to write the coords on the "face down" side, and hit it with a clear sealant spray. I then painted the "face up" side an appropriate color (in this case black).

 

This should work in a galvanized culvert.

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Ed, I am surprised at your rather innacurate summarization of the thread contents so far. You have been active in these forums long enough to know that while TPTB and reviewers frown on using markers to mark directly on public infrastructure components such as concrete surfaces, there has been general agreement across numerous threads on this topic that use of small, non-invasive, non-permanent and totally removable means of signage (including but not limited to those methods which I had briefly iterated in my earlier email), particularly when placed out of public view, are often acceptable....

I am experimenting with the dynamics of opposite reaction.

 

I've found that I can make some folks change their position by agreeing with them! Somebody says "This is bad" and I say "Yeah, I think so too" and they'll inevitably say "Well hold on, it's not that bad, in fact it may be good!" :unsure:

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<snip> Would some city official seriously give you a hard time for that residue? He would probably be standing ankle deep in old chip bags, cigarette butts, pop bottles etc while looking for that residue! LOL

 

And you want someone to stand there and look for a clue? :unsure:

That is nothing! While we do own three caches which require seekers to crawl on their bellies through such stinky wastewater in tiny storm drain pipes, that is really quite insignificant and quite mild. What is a far more superior experience is that offered by our Psycho Urban Cache #10 - Derelict Grunge Acropolis, where successful seekers must walk through the graffitti-lined tunnels of dark and smelly underground bunkers in a moldy and long-abandoned military fort in a derelict abandoned Baltimore "park" inhabited by people who look much like extras from the filming of "Dawn of the Dead". Anyway, getting on with my story, seekers of this cache must walk through dark and smelly underground tunnels which are littered knee-deep with broken liquor bottles, garbage, used condoms, and used hypodermic syringes and needles, and then climb a sheer wet vertical concrete wall -- which, according to most seekers, is covered in various human bodily fluids and excrement (no, we are not joking!) -- 24 feet in height, go over the top of the wall, crawl on their bellies though more of the aforementioned broken bottles, syringes, human bodily fluids and feral cat scat for about fifteen feet, and then grope for the cache container. Totally fun! Many seekers report with glee that they never knew what a panic attack was until they tackled this cache!

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