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promoting geocaching-Interisting twist?


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I am the director of a nature park that has 12 caches in and around the property. I am also a frequent cacher. I have a board member (also a cacher but not on a regular basis) who suggested I post the coordinates to the caches in the guest registry to promote geocaching and another activity while on the park.

 

I first thought it was a good idea but while writing up the sign, I had second thoughts thinking that perhaps I was opening up the caches to possible muggling by non-cachers w/ GPS's.

 

11 of the caches are mine... mostly ammo cans.

 

Comments?

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Interesting idea.

 

Maybe post the coords to one or two and then tell them to go to geocaching.com for more info on others.

 

I know before i heard of this (geocaching), i would have been very interested if i was in a park and saw a sign. Most likely though, the majority of people that visit parks would respect the sport. (Maybe? :lol: )

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I think rather than post the coordinates you should post something about the sport of geocaching and suggest the geocaching.com website. This will filter out casual observers to a good degree, and help to point to the rules and spirit of geocaching for those that show an interest.

 

It has been my observation that the easier it is for people to get to something, the more abused it is. Having to go through the website to see coordinates makes sense IMHO.

 

VKsnr

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I think your second thoughts are correct. You might want to mention that there are caches in the park and they can be located through GC.com. That way anyone who wants find them will at least be exposed to the right way to go about caching. You can take the non-cachers to the fountain , but you can't make them drink.

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You could also create one or two caches that the signs would indicate, but would not be listed online. You could put a couple goodies inside, but perhaps more detailed info than the standard stashnote, with info on finding gc.com and tracking down the rest of the caches in the park using the site.

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I think it's a fantastic idea.

 

For those not so familiar with geocaching you could provide some instructional brochures.

 

Heck, provide GPS’s for those who ask or even sponsor “cache walks” a few times a year.

 

Go for it.

 

Although, I would probably downplay the trade aspect. Keep it nature center items as opposed to McToys.

Maybe make it educational and have them retrieve items that represent the area the cache is in and then have them bring it back for an award certificate or something.

 

But that might stink for the local cachers.

 

Just throwing things out there.

Edited by BlueDeuce
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Perhaps you could hide a couple of caches that are ‘hidden’ by the nature park itself. Kind of like this State Park cache. With in these caches you could include information about geocaching and where to go to find other caches hidden in the park….. Geocaching.com. Or maybe I’m just too paranoid about muggled caches since I had three ammo can caches disappear all in one week last month. :lol:

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I promote geocaching at every opportunity, I taught two classes at local high-schools just this week, in fact; Intro to GPS and Geocaching.

 

Several parks around the country have geocaches in place and post the coordinates on their website... some are listed on geocaching.com, some are not.

 

Regardless, the game is open to anyone and is not a secret, nor should it be treated like one.

 

Geocaches are no more prone to being spoiled by 'muggles' than any other item is to be targeted by vandals. It happens, it's rare, it shouldn't scare us into hiding.

 

I applaud your acceptance of geocaches in your park and encourage you to use geocaching as a way to show off the interesting sites you want folks to see.

 

Yes, I think that you should post the coordinates!

 

Ed

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What is the chance of having someone come to the park with a handheld GPS without intending to go geocaching? Most people coming to the park to cache will probably have a GPS and the coordinates already.

 

You could offer "classes" on using a GPS for those people who don't know about geocaching and might like to learn. You can set aside a time to meet and show interested people how to use a GPS and then take everyone to look for a cache, either one you've hidden special for the "class" or one you have already set up. You can tell them about geocaching.com. You wouldn't have to tell them there are boxes of goodies hidden throughout the park. These lessons will give you the opportunity to stress proper care for nature and the land when looking for a cache- not just tearing the area apart. You'd also be able to teach proper caching etiquette. Even so, the more people who know about geocaching the more who might just go looking for boxes of goodies in the park so you'd have to weigh the pros and cons.

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I promote geocaching at every opportunity

 

I promote geocaching as well but I have developed serious reservations about promoting geocaching via a listing service. I like promoting geocaching because I think geocaching is a lot of fun, I enjoy the adventures.

In my area a local park has decided that geocaching may be an activity that can be introduced to park visitors and they are preparing to obtain some GPSr units to loan out. When they asked me about possible approaches I suggested that they introduce geocaching using private caches because the ethos of judgement is not suitable for park visitors, it may intrude and actually harm the relationship between the park and visitors. Here are a few quotes which illustrate what I think is a serious problem for Park Managers listing caches with a service, public listings are not a good way to promote the activity of geocaching if these scenarios can develop;

 

A bystander

Because certain people...put nasty notes on cache pages calling people cheaters. It has happened to friends of mine.

 

A cacher

Ok I've been made out to be some sort of FAKER or something

 

A cache owner

what i was most upset about was the audacity of someone to post on my cache page

 

Can you see any way that Park Managers could avoid this happening with a cache they place?

I like the idea of promoting geocaching but I think parks should focus on an internal approach and never mention any listing service.

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Just my $0.02...

Joe Blow and his herd of mini-muggles are not going to have any idea of the finer points of caching, and whatever caches you steer them toward are gonna end up being filled with gum wrappers, rusty bottle caps and other McCrap. I think it's a really kewl idea, but I would approach it cautiously. Maybe pick one cache to list at the park. One that is easy for you to restock on a regular basis. You can include some sort of spiel where visitors can learn more about caching, and get coords to other caches in the park by visiting the website?

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I concur with some of the sentiments already expressed above. While I applaud the idea, I urge caution. Some of the things to consider, IMHO:

  • Make sure you are only pointing visitors to caches where you've secured permission from the cache owner.
  • Create a custom brochure similar to the one at Geocacher-U that is less gc.com oriented and more succinctly explains the basic concepts.
  • Emphasize the elements of trading kindly, being observed, and replacing the cache.
  • Explain hitch hikers.

If I were the one approaching this project, I'd make the brochure complete with a few cache listing and instructions for the rental GPS units. Maybe a small space on each for notes for what they took and left. Then some web links for more information.

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I think looting and stealing becomes less of an issue once the park itself is involved. Especailly if the cache is placed by and belongs to the park. Many parks systems in my area have promoted caching in their own literature and at kiosks at the trailhead. The only ones I know of that have had problems were caches in heavy traffic areas, where accidental muggling was more likely the cause.

 

But, as many here have said, the bigger concern is somone not understanding the rules of trading, replacement, etc. You definitely want to make sure those are understood.

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I do wonder what a hiker who embarks on spur of the moment caching would have to trade. Of course, based on the junk I've found in some of my caches, it probably won't matter much. :laughing:

 

I think you should place a cache or two of your own. Get them listed here and use these as your Beta test. If they do get muggled often, or filled with junk too quickly, then you know that revealing the coordinates of other caches will probably end in the same result. If the caches remain in place and the swag stays relatively tradeable, then you might try listing additional existing caches a few at a time.

 

I do believe it would be prudent to obtain permission from theother cache owners prior to publicly posting their cache.

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Why not offer it as a guided tour, like a little program where you give a lecture on how this works and what to do, then going out into the woods with about five or six different GPSrs in the hands of the newbies and maybe some walkie-talkies if one gets lost. Since there will be a supervisor, the chances of the cache getting muggled are much smaller -- outside of someone revisiting it, which might be pretty hard without the GPSr -- and you can teach them the "proper" way to cache on the first go-ahead, answering questions in some sort of post-op.

 

Just my two cents.

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If some of the existing geocaches are multi's why not just put them on the sign with a reference to their www.geocaching.com GCxxxxx id. Then anyone would have to be patient enough to visit multiple sites (areas of interest within your park perhaps) before coming upon the cache. You could print out the cache page for the multi(s) and make that available when they register. Just some thoughts...

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I have suggested private caches to a local park manager because there is a real risk of having issues arise if the cache is listed on a service. I am not sure it is a huge problem on all services but any park manager reviewing this service is bound to spot the intrinsic problems that are linked to the ethos of judgement that exists today.

A park visitor isn't likely to place a lot of import on signing the logbook nor will they care too much about which choice they make on a drop down menu to record the adventure online. It is easy to confirm that these considerations are a life and death matter for some, it is so important to a few people that they will willingly go out of their way to call someone a liar or a cheater.

Having a park visitor called a liar or a cheater is simply not acceptable for most park managers. If they are aware that the people they introduce to geocaching may be accosted online or in an email they will likely pass over introducing or promoting a geocaching listing service to any of their park visitors.

 

CR's idea of a brochure is a good one but I think I would fill it with warnings about listing services rather than just links to same.

 

The use of the GPSr is the single most important element of geocaching for introductees and a brochure could be very effective in explaining the concepts involved in GPS use. People who have never been geocaching do need to understand the general principles of caching in regards to trading, re-hiding and avoiding non-geocachers. I don't see any way that the park could use trading in an introduction to geocaching unless they supplied all the trade items, visitors are not going to be carrying swag. I suppose that the principles of fair trading could be reviewed in a brochure but people who are not fair won't become fair if they read a brochure. Most people trading are not interested in fair trades, hiding even a couple of caches and watching the tendency towards "becoming junk" is very illustrative of this principle.

Re-hiding and avoiding observance by non-geocachers would really depend on the cache design and placement but these topics could also be covered effectively in a brochure.

 

So I will propose private caches. The park can hand out a brochure (with warnings about commercial listing services) that contains a synopsis of prevalent geocaching practices. There will be no trade items but there will be explanations on the use of GPSr to find caches. The caches will contain a logbook people can sign if they so desire. If park visitors like geocaching they can find there own way to a listing service and earn the right to be called a liar, cheater, sock puppet or a troll on their own. :)

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Maybe post the coords to one or two and then tell them to go to geocaching.com for more info on others.

 

I agree with this approach. It gives them a taste of caching, but sends them here to find out more. We all remember how hooked we became after our first find(s). Knowing there are more nearby could drive them to come here and learn more.

 

Just my $0.02...

Joe Blow and his herd of mini-muggles are not going to have any idea of the finer points of caching, and whatever caches you steer them toward are gonna end up being filled with gum wrappers, rusty bottle caps and other McCrap.

 

Interesting....Where do you think all the current McCrap comes from? Cachers, not muggles. There's no reason to think that they would be any less respectful of trading than current cachers are. I think we all get a bit elitest sometimes and forget that we were muggles once, too. :)

 

*Make sure you are only pointing visitors to caches where you've secured permission from the cache owner.

He said he owned 11 of the 12 caches.

 

*Emphasize the elements of trading kindly, being observed, and replacing the cache.

*Explain hitch hikers.

Great points.

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Did you have someone take you by the hand and teach you geocaching?

 

I didn't - I bought a GPS and discovered geocaching.com on a Google search trying to learn to use my new toy.

 

Why then would you attempt to place the responsibility for placing, maintaining, listing and teaching geocachers how to play on the park staff?

 

If the park wants to hide caches, or allow them to be hidden, and lists them on geocaching.com or publishes the coords on a sign or handout, whatever, that's wonderful - let's don't then burden them with the angst and duties inferred in above posts.

 

If the park cares about trade item quantity and quality they can stock them... but I bet they don't. Their interest is in showing off their park.

 

Keeping the caches private doesn't do much for anyone - one of the park manager's jobs it to make the park attractive and promote folks coming to use it - having the caches listed on geocaching.com brings folks to discover his park.

 

If the land manager is worried he might get a naughty log, he can delete them, but I bet he rarely reads them; he has a park to run and trust me, he gets a lot worse complaints from people in person than he's going to find in a cache log!

 

Having found thousands of caches in 26 states I can say with conviction that the worries you mention above are rare and not worth worrying over!

 

I do like the idea of classes and seminars, even a box of loaner GPS. Bring church groups and schools and Scouts and interested adults to the park, give them an introductory seminar and set 'em loose to geocache!

 

If the park doesn't have the staff or interest in that, get a local geocacher to do it. Everybody wins!

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Regardless, the game is open to anyone and is not a secret, nor should it be treated like one.

 

 

While the fear of some people ruining geocaching is reasonable and not to be taken too lightly IMO, the above quote is also very important. Without that, any one of us may have never learned about the hobby.

 

Chris

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Keeping the caches private doesn't do much for anyone - one of the park manager's jobs it to make the park attractive and promote folks coming to use it - having the caches listed on geocaching.com brings folks to discover his park.

 

Hi Ed

 

Geocaching is banned in all national parks and it appears our provincial parks are also adopting the same policy, it is a trickle down effect and it is trickling down, in Alberta several provincial parks have already begun removing caches in anticipation of the new policy. Our local park manager was not aware that geocaching had been banned in all national parks and an adverse decision at the provincial level will have a definite impact at our local park level.

 

It really isn't win/win or geocaching wouldn't be banned in all national parks and many state and provincial parks. Those parks that do adopt a geocaching policy often make it restrictive, the listing services do not need to add additional steps, they are instructed not to list caches until the park conditions have been met. Parks have restricted container types and container camouflage, they have implemented controls on the cache owners, cache locations and controls on the length of time that a geocache can exist in a single location. Some parks require fees or licences, these restrictive conditions are certainly not rare and they are increasing.

 

Your personal experience notwithstanding it is easy to confirm that parks have real concerns when they prohibit geocaching. Our local park manager has already expressed concern over poorly placed caches. Our local park has specifically admonished cache visitors and advised them to use trails where they exist rather than creating new ones. Even the most experienced cacher will not be able to convince the park that this isn't a problem as they have already seen it happen. I used real quotes in my previous post because they reflect issues that are real even if they are "rare".

 

Using a private cache removes almost all of these problems. The cache container, the location and the owner are all removed from consideration. The park is able to introduce the idea of geocaching under a controlled set of conditions, there are no online logs to monitor and removing the listing from a service where the ethos of judgement may cause inappropriate communication is simply an added benefit. The park doesn't have to worry about trash collecting in the cache and they can move them around and place them wherever they wish with no regard to the rules adopted by the listing service. Using a private cache means that the park is promoting another outdoor activity and they can avoid being associated with any listing service. Listing services are not interested in promoting this activity as much as they are interested in accumulating more listings, more members and more money, this "numbers" ethic is at the heart of the listing service, it is what they do.

If increasing the "numbers" was an approrpiate approach for park managers then geocaching wouldn't already be banned in all national parks and we wouldn't be looking at the trickle down effect of this decision impacting our provincial and local parks. I have been asked by the local park manager and I have advanced my opinion that private caches will work best, I don't see anything that convinces me that this approach is wrong.

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There's no reason to think that they would be any less respectful of trading than current cachers are.

 

If you wish to believe that, as a general rule of thumb, seasoned geocachers have the same trading ethics as someone who started playing yesterday, that is your choice. This belief certainly doesn't match my own personal observations. It's been my experience that good trading ethos is a learned behavior, not an instinctual one.

 

I think we all get a bit elitest sometimes and forget that we were muggles once, too.

Wow, I've been called lots of things in here, but never an "Elitist". So, are you now suggesting that an experienced cacher might be better at trading than a noob?

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Make a small sign with the Geocaching logo on it and post the cache info on the back of it. That way only cachers will be interested.

 

I go with this idea. Those who don't know the logo don't know caching, the cachers who visit your park and recognize the logo would know to investigate and most likely appreciate the coords if they hadn't checked before leaving home.

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There's no reason to think that they would be any less respectful of trading than current cachers are.

 

If you wish to believe that, as a general rule of thumb, seasoned geocachers have the same trading ethics as someone who started playing yesterday, that is your choice. This belief certainly doesn't match my own personal observations. It's been my experience that good trading ethos is a learned behavior, not an instinctual one.

 

I think we all get a bit elitest sometimes and forget that we were muggles once, too.

Wow, I've been called lots of things in here, but never an "Elitist". So, are you now suggesting that an experienced cacher might be better at trading than a noob?

My experience has been quite the opposite - newbies usually make better trades at first, when the game is new, they're excited and want to be accepted in the community, and then they lose interest over time.

 

Same with caches... most of the new folks I've seen want to make nice hides, then after they've been in it for a while they're more likely to toss a film can out the window.

 

I know quite a lot of very experienced cachers with 20 or more lame-oh road-side or parking-lot hides and very few who started out hiding them.

 

I even caught myself doing it - my caches started out costing $80 to $100 to place and took hours of research. After a couple years of that and maintaining 25 or so it just got too expensive and I started stocking them with dollar-store junk, reducing the hide cost to less than $25.

 

I originally set a lower limit of $5 for cache trade trinkets for my trading, then got cheap, then quit trading altogether, then stopped even logging my finds. That reflects the habits of many cachers I know... if it wasn't for newbies there would be nothing but junk in caches for the most part!

 

I even found LPCs starting to look attractive, though I never placed one. Well, one, but it's 12' up a billboard leg and you have to figure out how to get to it.

 

Now I have archived most of my caches and won't place one unless it's a family-friendly location, a well-stocked ammo-can-type container in an interesting place, but I certainly can see how experienced cachers can and do let quality and innovation, research and effort slip over time.

 

Wavector wrote:

Geocaching is banned in all national parks and it appears our provincial parks are also adopting the same policy, it is a trickle down effect and it is trickling down, in Alberta several provincial parks have already begun removing caches in anticipation of the new policy. Our local park manager was not aware that geocaching had been banned in all national parks and an adverse decision at the provincial level will have a definite impact at our local park level.

Yes, unfortunately 'no' trickles down faster than 'yes'. Still, in this thread we have a park that WANTS to accept geocaching and is looking for the best way to go about it. I agree with your ideas about private placement giving the park more control, if they are willing that is a great plan, if not maybe there can be a geocacher willing to serve as designated owner or maintainer of caches in the park.

 

Alabama and Arkansas State Parks have gone to a permit system where you have to file for written permission, there are restrictions, and it's working quite well. These are 'public' caches in that anyone can place them and they are listed on geocaching.com, but 'private' in that the park retains complete control over where they are and how they can be accessed, and can have them removed if any damage such as social trails begins to form.

 

I think this is as close to a perfect situation as can be created.

 

As to National Park Service lands, I don't remember why they were banned, but I do know that they even banned virtual caches in publicly-accessible areas, showing that the ban wasn't well thought-out and the game not understood! Banning a coordinate makes no sense in places where people are allowed to go.

 

As mentioned, saying no is always easier than yes.

 

Your personal experience notwithstanding it is easy to confirm that parks have real concerns when they prohibit geocaching. Our local park manager has already expressed concern over poorly placed caches. Our local park has specifically admonished cache visitors and advised them to use trails where they exist rather than creating new ones. Even the most experienced cacher will not be able to convince the park that this isn't a problem as they have already seen it happen. I used real quotes in my previous post because they reflect issues that are real even if they are "rare".

Yup, true. Bad things do happen. Leave a gate open and some putz will bring his 4wd in and tear up your roads. Fail to patrol and some jerk will whup out his paint can and write his name on your monument, or worse. Poorly placed caches, cachers with no regard for the environment or property rules DO hurt all of us.

 

Anyone responsible for public lands knows that there will be a percentage of every group that behave poorly.

As long as we show that the vast majority of us cache within the rules and take care of their property however, I suspect that land managers will continue to accept us despite that small risk.

 

Look at the successes - we have far more lands available to us than lands on which we have been banned.

 

The failures and bad incidents get the press. The stories that don't often get told are the overwhelming number of good things geocaching brings to parks.

 

I still suggest the park in question implement a permit policy, let cachers hide caches under minimal supervision, and list them on geocaching.com as well as on signs and in publications of the park.

 

The more I think about it the more I like the idea of a local geocacher stepping up and volunteering to be the point-of-contact and responsible party for caches in the park.

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I've glanced through this and am wondering, are there muggles who have the intent purpose of ripping off caches and have the means to find them? The very mention of muggle implies that they don't know the first thing about geocaches. If there are people who go in with the intent purpose of swiping caches then there is little you can do to stop them since the info is available elsewhere. Now I'll grant you that there could be people (hikers, most likely) who have a GPS and who come across the posted coords in the guest book and could plan to go out and find them. I'm guessing though that hikers or others with a GPS are not the people who would violate a cache. I think putting down the coords and a note stating what they are and offering more info about them is enough. I believe that those who invest the time are going to be okay with it.

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Same with caches... most of the new folks I've seen want to make nice hides, then after they've been in it for a while they're more likely to toss a film can out the window.

Perhaps this is a regional phenomenon? Sort of a "Reverse Learning Curve" thing? My experience, while not nearly as extensive as yours, has shown the opposite to be true. Folks new to caching improve over time, as they learn new aspects to the game. Seems like you are describing geo-burnout. Possibly a result of being surrounded by too many lame caches? :):)

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There's no reason to think that they would be any less respectful of trading than current cachers are.

 

If you wish to believe that, as a general rule of thumb, seasoned geocachers have the same trading ethics as someone who started playing yesterday, that is your choice. This belief certainly doesn't match my own personal observations. It's been my experience that good trading ethos is a learned behavior, not an instinctual one.

 

I think we all get a bit elitest sometimes and forget that we were muggles once, too.

Wow, I've been called lots of things in here, but never an "Elitist". So, are you now suggesting that an experienced cacher might be better at trading than a noob?

 

I don't think newbies trade any better or worse than experienced cachers. I see the same behavior from both groups. Some trade fair and even, others don't - neither group is better than the other was my point.

 

Please don't think I was directly calling you an "elitest". What I meant is that we all (myself included) sometimes want to keep this hobby a secret and not share it with others. If the folks that started this did that, none of us would be playing today. :blink:

Edited by kealia
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