Help with logging to NGS

[+t8r]

I am looking for some guidance on logging a benchmark with NGS that I believe was inaccurately logged by NGS in

1983.

First I would like to point out that I do not like to load up the NGS database with superfluous information and as

such, will only log where there have been substantial changes from past logs or the mark has not been logged in an

extremely long time.

The log in question is NV0489. In my Groundspeak log I get a little wordy as it is obvious that other geocachers

have had trouble finding this even though it is rather prominently located.

My NGS log comment might be something like this.

 

Contrary to previous log, the disc has not been vandalized but shows damage incurred during the accident

when signal bridge was ripped out by a passing train that had something sticking out of it. The disc does not

show signs of having been moved and the information on it is very legible.

This mark is on a pier of several yards of concrete that is very unlikely to move, short of a derailment in

which the train would hit that concrete mass.

I would certainly appreciate any comments or alternate text for this entry.

[holograph]

Given the normal brevity of NGS reports, you might just say "Found in good condition, no damage evident. Handheld GPS coordinates are Nxx xx xx.x Wxxx xx xx.x"

Edited March 23, 2007 by holograph

[CallawayMT]

I am looking for some guidance on logging a benchmark with NGS that I believe was inaccurately logged by NGS in

1983.

First I would like to point out that I do not like to load up the NGS database with superfluous information and as

such, will only log where there have been substantial changes from past logs or the mark has not been logged in an

extremely long time.

The log in question is NV0489. In my Groundspeak log I get a little wordy as it is obvious that other geocachers

have had trouble finding this even though it is rather prominently located.

My NGS log comment might be something like this.

 

Contrary to previous log, the disc has not been vandalized but shows damage incurred during the accident

when signal bridge was ripped out by a passing train that had something sticking out of it. The disc does not

show signs of having been moved and the information on it is very legible.

This mark is on a pier of several yards of concrete that is very unlikely to move, short of a derailment in

which the train would hit that concrete mass.

I would certainly appreciate any comments or alternate text for this entry.

 

t8r,

 

The disk in your photo, does show signs of damage; it clearly shows a crease in the center of the disk. This is the high point from which the levels would be referenced to. This is only a couple hundreths, but as a Surveyor, unless I absolutely needed this bench, I would have my crews go find the next closest. At the bare minimum, I would run a level circuit through this mark from another known mark to verify the elevation.

 

So in your description, I would say found poor with some damage to the disk.

 

CallawayMT

[+PFF]

I agree with Holo and Callaway. Also, the stability of the disk deserves to be mentioned. How about:

 

PREVIOUS TO REACH IS ADEQUATE. THE SURFACE HAS BEEN GOUGED, BUT THE DISK REMAINS FIRMLY MOUNTED IN THE CEMENT BASE AND THE STAMPING IS LEGIBLE.

 

By the way, thanks for asking prior to posting an unusual find to NGS. Always appropriate!

 

-Paul-

Edited March 23, 2007 by PFF

[+t8r]

Thanks for the replies. The Groundspeak log will suffice. I'll not clutter up ngs with my log as the benchmark is essentially unchanged since 1983.

[+PFF]

t8r wrote:

I'll not clutter up ngs with my log as the benchmark is essentially unchanged since 1983.

 

Perhaps that, in its simplicity, is the ideal log entry for NGS. "RECOVERED AS DESCRIBED IN 1983". [but see modification below.] Submitting reports twenty-five years apart certainly cannot be construed as clutter!

 

Frankly, the 1983 observer went too far with his description, in my opinion. The "molested by vandals" was pure speculation. You have come up with an equally good--perhaps better--explanation for the gouge on the disk. But the actual reason is not important.

 

All a surveyor cares about is the disk's existence and condition. That's why Holo, Callaway, and I suggested responses which removed the "why" from the report.

 

On a new, but related topic, thanks for including the photo of the signal bridge in your geocaching.com report. When I saw it, I remembered how common that arrangement used to be. I had not realized it, but I have not seen a signal bridge in a very long time. Very interesting!

 

Back to the subject of NV0489. After reading the datasheet for this station, I hope you will consider sending a report to NGS, because there has been a change since 1983. Here's my suggested wording:

 

SIGNAL BRIDGE HAS BEEN REMOVED, BUT FOUNDATION REMAINS. DISK CONDITION IS UNCHANGED FROM THE 1983 RECOVERY REPORT.

 

-Paul-

[+t8r]

Oh yes. The signal bridges. It used to be pretty impressive to see a row of them stretched out across the flat open country here. One every mile, I think.

Also quite an event when a piece of equipment would get loose on a flat car and take one out. Of course the signals in front of the train would indicate red but it might take a mile or so to get stopped. With the mangled remains of the bridge dragging along as it went. I suspect that one was gone before 1983. The damage to the disc may have been caused as the ironwork was dragged off the foundation. I will do the very brief log as you suggest.

Additionally: Benchmarking is wide open here as I am the first one to get at all serious about it. There are a lot of them that have not been logged by NGS since being monumented. The cachers that have logged some don't seem to be interested in getting very far off the pavement in search of them. That leaves the field wide open for a nut like me.

Thanks for your reply

[mloser]

You might want to mention that the structure itself is gone, and perhaps that the mark is across the tracks from that silver box (if you are certain it is a signal control box you can call it that, but just calling a SILVER EQUIPMENT BOX is ok too).

 

Hand held coords are also very nice. They should be degrees, minutes, seconds, decimal seconds. I use the format "HH2 N 40 36 50.4 W 076 40 24.4", which I got from somewhere in this forum. I try to put them on all marks I find, and especially ones along railroads that have vague reference points such as signal bridges.

 

STATION DISK HAS BEEN GOUGED IN THE TOP ACROSS THE MEASURING MARK. SIGNAL BRIDGE HAS BEEN REMOVED BUT FOUNDATION REMAINS. FOUNDATION IS ACROSS THE TRACKS FROM A SILVER EQUIPMENT BOX APPROXIMATELY 5 FEET HIGH.

 

HH2 N 42 57 04.32 W 115 18 35.14

 

I also have concerns about the stability of the foundation if the bridge actually WAS ripped from it by a protruding object. I can't imagine anything with enough force to tear a steel structure from the concrete that would also NOT shift the foundation, and if I knew that was what had happened to the signal bridge I would mention it in the recovery. It is possible that the bridge was removed intentionally. In the 40s and 50s signals were often placed a mile or so apart, but after the 70s train speeds increased and the use of CTC and radio communications have reduced the need to have signals so close together. They may have decommissioned it. Just my easterner and railfan take on the situation. You are much more familiar with that area so you would have the best insight into what is happening.

 

Of course the signals in front of the train would indicate red but it might take a mile or so to get stopped.

A note about signalling: even if a derailed car or an object sticking out of the train damaged a signal bridge, other signals would not turn red because of it. Signals show indications based on the occupancy of the block of track they cover, and that coverage is only AHEAD of the signal, which would mostly be clear. What happens behind them is not part of the circuitry. The engineer would have had to determine what happened based on the feel of the train, or from visual inspection, or if it happened before the end of cabeese, the conductor or rear brakeman would have hopefully spotted the problem.

 

A simplified signaling diagram

 

Direction of travel --->

=============S1==============S2===============S3====OOOOOOOOEEE>====

 

S1, S2 and S3 are signals. The train is OOOOOOOOEEE>

S1 indicates CLEAR, S2 indicates APPROACH, and S3 shows STOP.

[+Black Dog Trackers]

There is something to be said for using the DDD MM.MMM format on the Geocaching benchmark site and the DDD MM SS.S format on the NGS site for reporting handheld coordinates. Of course if one wants to pick just one format for reporting on both sites, I'd certainly recommend DDD MM SS.S but since the Geocaching benchmark site uses DDD MM.MMM, it is more interesting to be able to quickly compare a person's handheld coordinates with those on the top of the Geocaching datasheet. (In this particular case, the N coordinate is the same.)

 

Also, as the OP was wondering about what's superfluous or not, I could point out (pretty well-known, to perhaps all of us now) that posting handheld coordinates on a location-adjusted mark is superfluous.

 

I agree with mloser that the forceful removal of the bridge is cause for concern. This information should be posted to the NGS since the next surveyor considering using this mark may not know about this interesting piece of its violent history.

 

I also agree with CallawayMT as to the importance of which area of the disk sustained damage. The most important part of a disk is not the legibility of the stamping, but the condition of the exact center of the disk. It is not like a coin in which the grade of a coin depends on all parts of it. With a disk, the center is key. An extreme example is untouched and undamaged stamping, but the very top of the disk scored off so that the center-cross or dot-in-a-triangle is obliterated.

[+Shorelander]

Additionally: Benchmarking is wide open here as I am the first one to get at all serious about it. There are a lot of them that have not been logged by NGS since being monumented. The cachers that have logged some don't seem to be interested in getting very far off the pavement in search of them. That leaves the field wide open for a nut like me.

Here I go off topic...

 

Oh, boy, here's one for you to go after! OZ1004

 

Plus, wanted to say that your writeup for OZ1010 is quite poetic. Kudos!

[+Black Dog Trackers]

Yikes !!!

 

Was OZ1004 set by the Roadrunner with a subsequent recovery attempt by Wile E. Coyote?

Edited March 26, 2007 by Black Dog Trackers

[+t8r]

Roadrunner and Wile E. are definitely around here. I seen 'em. LOL.

 

Advice taken on damage to foundation.

 

Much of the info about the demise of signal bridges around here comes from my late father in law. He was the station agent here tor 20+ years and a telegrapher before that back to 1947. After I moved here in 74 he used to call me if something exciting was going on with the RR. I got to see the result of a couple signal bridge rip outs and numerous derailments. This is the main line into the northwest and 30 or more trains pass through here per day. It was not unheard of for a signal bridge to get ripped out and dragged through another one.

 

I think the way the signals were set up here, if there is an electrical problem (broken circut) everything turns red both ways for several miles in each direction.

 

To make things more complicated there are 3 main lines through GF. Oficially #1 #2 & #3. referred to as eastbound, westbound, and old main.

 

We are on a kind of upside-down mountain here. At the bottom of the snake river gully. trains have to climb out eastbound from King Hill and westbound from Hammett. The reason for all the extra mains is to releive the congestion caused by all this climbing.

 

Back to benchmarking.

Lookie all the "not yet founds" in a 10 mile radius to the south of this one.

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=NV0984

Giess I better get after it.

[+PFF]

In Road Runner territory, I guess you use the ACME Metal Detector, ACME Ground Probe, ACME Super GPS, etc. But then, this brand of products never seems to work for old Wile E. If that chacter would stop buying gadgets, he could afford a nice Road Runner dinner in a restaurant.

 

I saw a new term in the description for NV0984.

FOLLOW RD. FOR 2.6 MI. TO BLADED TRACK RD. COMING IN FROM THE N.....

 

Is that a road that has been scraped out by a grader?

 

-Paul-

[+Klemmer]

Paul:

Yep, I've seen that term used out here in CA also. A "Track Road" seems to mean two footpaths spaced properly for a jeep (or a good truck). If you run a grader or 'dozer down it, it's bladed. Think of it as somewhere between a foot trail and a real dirt road or fire road out here. Typically not well graded, leveled, or drained.

Klemmer

[+PFF]

Interesting! So, let's see......We have,

Track Road

Field Road

Woods Road

and now, Bladed Road.

 

And each unpaved road has unique properties. And to think that just a few years ago, I called everything a "dirt road". But then, this hobby has taught me to see a lot of things in more descriptive terms!

 

-Paul-

[+t8r]

The acme GPS is the hand crank model. Rather large and it is shipped to the user in a large wooden crate.

No doubt you noticed the topo grid lines get real close together, often, in this area. Think loud whistling noise, pitching lowering with time, ending in a loud crash sound, accompanied with extreme vibration.

[+Kewaneh & Shark]

The acme GPS is the hand crank model. Rather large and it is shipped to the user in a large wooden crate...

A better alternative to the ACME crank GPSr is the Analog GPSr offered by AeroStich. Much easier to carry than ACME's GPSr, and mountable to the handlebar of a motorcycle. From their catalog:

"Take your batteries and slavish dependence on other high-tech flummery and heave it overboard. With this device, you can pinpoint your location anywhere on earth and not be reliant on dodgy bits of information being projected through the ether by divers black arts. Precision constructed of brass and the finest optics available and featuring premium isinglass sun filters, it is compact and rugged enough for the adventurous motor-cyclist. Mounts for 7/8" and 1" bars are included, as is a fitted, velvet lined rosewood storage case. Not included are required declination charts (call for details) or the extremely accurate watch you are going to need to use this thing. Meets R.N. standard 3329-5 of 1787."

 

- Kewaneh

[mloser]

My favorite reference to a woods road is in KW0718:

DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1942 1.5 MI SE FROM KLEINFELTERSVILLE. ABOUT 1.5 MILES SOUTHEAST ALONG HIGHWAY NO. 897 FROM THE POST OFFICE AT KLEINFELTERSVILLE, AT THE JUNCTION OF A WOODS ROAD, 38 FEET NORTHEAST OF THE CENTER LINE OF THE HIGHWAY, 8.0 FEET NORTHWEST OF THE CENTER LINE OF THE WOODS ROAD, 27 FEET NORTHWEST OF A 18-INCH OAK TREE, 2.0 FEET SOUTHWEST OF A WHITE POST STENCILED U.S.B.M. A STANDARD DISK SET IN A CONCRETE POST IN THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF A FIELD.

This in itself it unremarkable--I think most of us would know what to look for, but check the 2000 recovery:

RECOVERY NOTE BY PA DEPT OF TRANSP 2000 (AJH)

WOODS ROAD NOT FOUND (MAY HAVE BEEN RENAMED). WITNESS POST NOT FOUND.

He thought the NAME of the road was Woods Rd. He applied similar logic for other marks in the area, which is to say "no logic", so I ended up recovering a few others that he had not found. My theory is either summer intern, or disinterested state employee doing busy work.

[mapjunkie]

Interesting! So, let's see......We have,

Track Road

Field Road

Woods Road

and now, Bladed Road

 

Don't forget that inviting 'Minimum Maintenance' road - actual dirt (or dust), rutted, washed out, narrow, with mud pits and fallen trees, and maybe a stack of round bales where the farmer decided to store them for the winter, that might just stop without warning at the bottom of a muddy hill.

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Interesting! So, let's see......We have,

Track Road

Field Road

Woods Road

and now, Bladed Road

 

Don't forget that inviting 'Minimum Maintenance' road - actual dirt (or dust), rutted, washed out, narrow, with mud pits and fallen trees, and maybe a stack of round bales where the farmer decided to store them for the winter, that might just stop without warning at the bottom of a muddy hill.

 

We have lots of "dim road", "dim trail" and "dim track" that are throughout this area. When it says "DIM" it means -- almost nondiscernable most of the time and just two ruts for your tires or just cut cross country heading in the general direction. (This means good all-terrain tires.)

 

Shirley~

[+Shorelander]

My favorite reference to a woods road is in KW0718:

DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1942 1.5 MI SE FROM KLEINFELTERSVILLE. ABOUT 1.5 MILES SOUTHEAST ALONG HIGHWAY NO. 897 FROM THE POST OFFICE AT KLEINFELTERSVILLE, AT THE JUNCTION OF A WOODS ROAD, 38 FEET NORTHEAST OF THE CENTER LINE OF THE HIGHWAY, 8.0 FEET NORTHWEST OF THE CENTER LINE OF THE WOODS ROAD, 27 FEET NORTHWEST OF A 18-INCH OAK TREE, 2.0 FEET SOUTHWEST OF A WHITE POST STENCILED U.S.B.M. A STANDARD DISK SET IN A CONCRETE POST IN THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF A FIELD.

This in itself it unremarkable--I think most of us would know what to look for, but check the 2000 recovery:

RECOVERY NOTE BY PA DEPT OF TRANSP 2000 (AJH)

WOODS ROAD NOT FOUND (MAY HAVE BEEN RENAMED). WITNESS POST NOT FOUND.

He thought the NAME of the road was Woods Rd. He applied similar logic for other marks in the area, which is to say "no logic", so I ended up recovering a few others that he had not found. My theory is either summer intern, or disinterested state employee doing busy work.

I'll be honest, I'd be confused, being pretty much solely an urban/suburban recoverer. Although, the following description in the Massachusetts state database confused me for a bit:

IN THE NORTH SIDEWALK OF CONGRESS STREET, OPPOSITE THE CENTERLINE OF A STREET, 2.12 FT SOUTH OF SUPPORT COLUMN, 5.14 FT NORTH OF SECOND SUPPORT COLUMN, 14.92 FT WEST OF e-PIN IN GRANITE CURB, 8.27 FT NORTHWEST OF e-PIN IN CURB.

I thought to myself, "this is an urban area! All the streets have names, so why say 'a street'?"

 

Of course, when I get there and see A Street next to B, C, and D Streets, I get the picture...

[+PFF]

To mloser and shorelander

 

No more, please! My sides are hurting from laughing!

 

-Paul-

[+Doc Geo]

Hilarious!

 

My favorite reference to a woods road is in KW0718:

DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1942 1.5 MI SE FROM KLEINFELTERSVILLE. ABOUT 1.5 MILES SOUTHEAST ALONG HIGHWAY NO. 897 FROM THE POST OFFICE AT KLEINFELTERSVILLE, AT THE JUNCTION OF A WOODS ROAD, 38 FEET NORTHEAST OF THE CENTER LINE OF THE HIGHWAY, 8.0 FEET NORTHWEST OF THE CENTER LINE OF THE WOODS ROAD, 27 FEET NORTHWEST OF A 18-INCH OAK TREE, 2.0 FEET SOUTHWEST OF A WHITE POST STENCILED U.S.B.M. A STANDARD DISK SET IN A CONCRETE POST IN THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF A FIELD.

This in itself it unremarkable--I think most of us would know what to look for, but check the 2000 recovery:

RECOVERY NOTE BY PA DEPT OF TRANSP 2000 (AJH)

WOODS ROAD NOT FOUND (MAY HAVE BEEN RENAMED). WITNESS POST NOT FOUND.

He thought the NAME of the road was Woods Rd. He applied similar logic for other marks in the area, which is to say "no logic", so I ended up recovering a few others that he had not found. My theory is either summer intern, or disinterested state employee doing busy work.