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Obtaining Permission for Placement on a Commercial Property


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...Is the pity party almost over? Either way, it's not on topic. If you want to continue it, send me a PM.

Dude, you can post with a heavy hand at times.

 

Since you enjoy a good debate, it may help to keep in mind that you want good folks to debate with so you can keep enjoying the debate. Not agreeing is no reason to not share a beer if the time ever comes.

 

I think some of your forum bruskness is just your style, but some folks may mistake that for animosity and take it personally.

 

Of course every now than then some folks just need the beer bottle bashed over thear heads, but I haven't gotten that impression from anyone in this thread.

 

Something to think about.

Agreed.

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Click the little arrow immediatly above if you want to read the rest of this quote. :lol:

I have a few thoughts regarding this. First, mine was merely a statement regarding human nature, which I made clear. Second, at the time of my post, you had not yet made your statement supporting the existence of such a document. Third, you have not yet told us what that policy actually states. Finally, your position at WalMart has not exactly been made clear, I don't believe. What exactly was your management position? You have put yourself out there as an expert in the company, but for all I know, you were the manager of the shoe department where your primary responsibility was stocking generic odor eaters.

In response to:

First: Ok, cool.

Second: At the time of your suggestion that I reread your post I had stated that such a document exists.

Third: I can't quote it directly as I no longer have the manual, but it basically prohibits any organized activity that isn't pre-approved by the home office. The wording is pretty broad & would cover geocaching.

Finally: I have, in fact, explicitly described my position at Wal-Mart. In response to your almost identical question trying to call my qualifications into question.

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Click the little arrow immediatly above if you want to read the rest of this quote. :laughing:

I have a few thoughts regarding this. First, mine was merely a statement regarding human nature, which I made clear. Second, at the time of my post, you had not yet made your statement supporting the existence of such a document. Third, you have not yet told us what that policy actually states. Finally, your position at WalMart has not exactly been made clear, I don't believe. What exactly was your management position? You have put yourself out there as an expert in the company, but for all I know, you were the manager of the shoe department where your primary responsibility was stocking generic odor eaters.

In response to:

First: Ok, cool.

Second: At the time of your suggestion that I reread your post I had stated that such a document exists.

Third: I can't quote it directly as I no longer have the manual, but it basically prohibits any organized activity that isn't pre-approved by the home office. The wording is pretty broad & would cover geocaching.

Finally: I have, in fact, explicitly described my position at Wal-Mart. In response to your almost identical question trying to call my qualifications into question.

Fine. You win. Take my previous post and replace the word 'shoe' with 'photo' and the term 'odor eaters' with 'disposable cameras'. :lol: Edited by sbell111
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Finally: I have, in fact, explicitly described my position at Wal-Mart. In response to your almost identical question trying to call my qualifications into question.

Fine. You win. Take my previous post and replace the word 'shoe' with 'photo' and the term 'odor eaters' with 'disposable cameras'. :lol:

Uhh... no. I hired people to do that. Did you read the rest of the post? You obviosly didn't the first time I posted it, as you needed to ask the question again. In case others are swayed by your blatant attempt to discredit me, here's what I posted:

I was a Specialty Divisions manager, specifically for the Photo Lab. I handles all aspects of the lab, from budgeting, hiring, training, and maintenance. I answered directly to the District Manager, who was responsible for a good portion of Maine and New Hampshire. The company sent me to a number of seminars involving topics ranging from good management practices, union activities (from which I base my statements about allowable activities in the parking lot) to Photo Lab maint. I was heavily involved with Loss Prevention in the store (as cameras are a high risk item), and spent enough time with the LP associate to have a handle on that end of the job as well. (I even was in on a shoplifter stop where it turned out the guy had a knife. Not fun!) I left the company 4 years ago to pursue a career in outdoor ministries.
Implying that I was a glorified stocker is a irresponsible misrepresentation of the facts. It'd be like me saying "sbell111 doesn't know what he's talking about because he's only been geocaching for six years." I even mentioned some of the direct experience I had with the topics at hand.

Frankly, even the stockmen out pushing carts at your local Wal-Mart probably have more pertinent knowledge on the subject we've been discussing than you do since they actually have had experience with Wal-Mart policies. So, let's hear it, sbell111:

 

What makes you the expert you claim to be on the placement of caches on commercial property?

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for simplicity's sake.. anyway to place the cache on the easement adjacent to wally world? this way its next to the wal-mart but still on public property.

 

i think trying to get permission to place on the property of a big store is a bad idea. even if the store manager says yes, you still have hundreds of employees that have no clue whats going on. they dont all get 100% of store policy so how can you expect them to get notified about something trivial and not revenue generating? sounds like many calls to the rent a cop waiting to happen.

 

if your gonna shoot for a big store, hows about a sporting goods store? at least there the employees will be more inclined to accept the answer of "we're playing a sport/game" as an acceptable answer from people digging around the outside of the building. you may be able to even get the manager to pitch in some trinkets since it will generate traffic to the store.

 

my 0.02

urbo

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My post, therefore, wasn't a straw man argument at all, it was a reference to his Chicken Little warning.

See my post above, but while we are at it...

TGB has a point that you are trying to devalue by bringing up a point that he made (but no longer stands by) at an earlier time. Trying to discredit him on a point that the actual point we are discussing will stand alone is attacking TGB, not the argument at hand, and is thus another fallacy: Ad Hominem (Attacking the Person).

I still stand by the straw man fallacy, by the way.

I guess your point would be valid to me if I'd read where he changed his mind or retracted his original statement, but maybe I missed it. Got a link?

 

So, I'm pointing out a statement by him that I see as over the top and suggesting that the prediction didn't come true. At best it can be said I'm attacking his statement (if pointing it out is attacking), but I don't see where I'm attacking him. No Ad Hominem.

The current discussion can stand without the statement about "the end of geocaching." By continually bringing it up, you are trying to discredit him & make his other statements look less true. Ad Hominem.

The currect discussion is a direct result of his other statement, so it's not at all a completely separate or unrelated issue. He decided to go ask for explicit premission and see what would really happen because a lot of us said that nothing bad would happen if someone did.

 

He said someone seeking explicit permission could result in the site being shut down, we said no it couldn't.

He said he might ask for explicit permission and show us what could happen, we said go ahead.

He said if something bad happened as a result we shouldn't blame him, we said that sounds like an excuse.

He actually ended up having a conversation about hiding coords in a WalMart parking lot, but since he's being secrative with the details of the conversation we're not sure what he did or didn't actually do.

That's when I mentioned that the site hadn't shut down yet.

 

As to a statement predicting the end of geocaching and a retraction from TGB goes:

After much scanning of TGB's posts in the 3 threads I've been involved in for this discussion, I found only one place where he actually said anything close. Ack... I popped open a few too many windows and closed that quote... anyways, he said something to the effect of "I am concerned that geocaching may end or something else bad will happen to the game." The "something else bad" is actually closer to what he actually said than the rest of the "quote." Back this up against other statements he's made:

 

It sounds to me like most of his argument has been about overcrowding, not the website getting shut down. And finally:

 

Does this sound like he believes that "the game will come grinding to a halt"? No.

I, on the other hand, did at one point see the shutting down of this game as a real possibility. I no longer do. There's my retraction.

Searching is sometimes difficult on these forums, so I'll quote you exactly what he said.

 

Pleeeeeez don't make me dig... :lol: What dangers are their with asking for permission to place an LPC?

 

I've got one.

 

Let's say someone approached a high level manager at Walmart and asked for permission to lift up a light pole skirt and hide something under it for others to find. Given that it is clearly spelled out behind the little box you check, isn't it logical to assume that someone has actually done this before?

 

That manager has the foresight to go one step further after telling the person he was nuts. He goes to the GC.com website and punches in the zip code of every Walmart in America. They decide they have a very big problem. Big enough to file suit against GC.com, shutting down the site completely until they work things out in court. Meanwhile, the game dies without a home.

 

Far fetched? I'd be interested in hearing why you think so.

 

If, as you say, he's since then said that he no longer believes this is possible, or something to that effect, I missed it.

 

Man.

 

You seem to know more about what I think than I do. If I tell you have it 100% all wrong.. are you going to ask ME for proof? I hope you can appreciate how hard that is walk away when it is your own personal opinion that is the subject of debate and being so grossly misrepresented.

 

A little oversight in this slice of the discussion we had was how I arrived at this being a possibility. I had talked to a relative of mine who is a top lawyer, a corporate lawyer for a company very similar to WalMart. We had a "what if" discussion over dinner one night, it was not something I sought out or solicited to make trouble for anyone. He was the one that painted the picture in which I am discussing above in your quote. How could you leave that out and still claim to be credible?

 

I'll be the first to admit that I don't know you as you seem to be claiming that you know me, but if you were a lawyer, or even knew a lawyer that cared to refute this above scenario, I'm pretty sure you would have brought it up by now. Therefore, I'll take the professional that has dealt with this kind of thing for twenty years, the ex-Walmart manager for ten years, the ex-cop's opinion that all weighed in and agreed that this scenario is a possibility and feel pretty sure about it.

 

I have learned a ton about people's perception of the law, the law, levels of permission, property rights, GC.com guidelines and their particular approach to all this since our discussion began a few months ago. During that discovery, I will also admit to reconsidering to some degree some of the preconceived ideas I had on some of these issues that you are quoting me on. You and your friends like jump up and down and point fingers and call that waffling but it is not. I come here for intellectual stimulation and to learn.

 

I am not sure how I need to put this so you but I am taking the gloves off and not putting them back on with you guys. I'm offering a handshake right now. Okay?

Edited by Team GeoBlast
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for simplicity's sake.. anyway to place the cache on the easement adjacent to wally world? this way its next to the wal-mart but still on public property.

 

i think trying to get permission to place on the property of a big store is a bad idea. even if the store manager says yes, you still have hundreds of employees that have no clue whats going on. they dont all get 100% of store policy so how can you expect them to get notified about something trivial and not revenue generating? sounds like many calls to the rent a cop waiting to happen.

 

if your gonna shoot for a big store, hows about a sporting goods store? at least there the employees will be more inclined to accept the answer of "we're playing a sport/game" as an acceptable answer from people digging around the outside of the building. you may be able to even get the manager to pitch in some trinkets since it will generate traffic to the store.

 

my 0.02

urbo

 

All good stuff urbo.

 

Walmart turns out to be one of the biggest retailers of GPS units and sporting goods in our state. You have to remember we are an island and don't have a lot the stores you may have where you live. WalMart also a great place to send geocachers for things geocachers need because there's so many opportunities to get ripped off here. They will pay 50% more for batteries and things like that other places.

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for simplicity's sake.. anyway to place the cache on the easement adjacent to wally world? this way its next to the wal-mart but still on public property.

 

i think trying to get permission to place on the property of a big store is a bad idea. even if the store manager says yes, you still have hundreds of employees that have no clue whats going on. they dont all get 100% of store policy so how can you expect them to get notified about something trivial and not revenue generating? sounds like many calls to the rent a cop waiting to happen.

 

if your gonna shoot for a big store, hows about a sporting goods store? at least there the employees will be more inclined to accept the answer of "we're playing a sport/game" as an acceptable answer from people digging around the outside of the building. you may be able to even get the manager to pitch in some trinkets since it will generate traffic to the store.

 

my 0.02

urbo

 

All good stuff urbo.

 

Walmart turns out to be one of the biggest retailers of GPS units and sporting goods in our state. You have to remember we are an island and don't have a lot the stores you may have where you live. WalMart also a great place to send geocachers for things geocachers need because there's so many opportunities to get ripped off here. They will pay 50% more for batteries and things like that other places.

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I don't get how you think that you can take a bunch of shots and then expect nothing to come to you in return because you end your post with

I am not sure how I need to put this so you but I am taking the gloves off and not putting them back on with you guys. I'm offering a handshake right now. Okay?

If you truly want to stop arguing, just stop arguing. Edited by sbell111
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Implying that I was a glorified stocker is a irresponsible misrepresentation of the facts. It'd be like me saying "sbell111 doesn't know what he's talking about because he's only been geocaching for six years." I even mentioned some of the direct experience I had with the topics at hand.

Frankly, even the stockmen out pushing carts at your local Wal-Mart probably have more pertinent knowledge on the subject we've been discussing than you do since they actually have had experience with Wal-Mart policies. So, let's hear it, sbell111:

 

What makes you the expert you claim to be on the placement of caches on commercial property?

The difference between the two of us is the I don't claim to be an expert.

 

BTW, a walmart class on how to break a union attempt does not appear to have anything to do with the price of tea.

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Click the little arrow immediatly above if you want to read the rest of this quote. :lol:

I have a few thoughts regarding this. First, mine was merely a statement regarding human nature, which I made clear. Second, at the time of my post, you had not yet made your statement supporting the existence of such a document. Third, you have not yet told us what that policy actually states. Finally, your position at WalMart has not exactly been made clear, I don't believe. What exactly was your management position? You have put yourself out there as an expert in the company, but for all I know, you were the manager of the shoe department where your primary responsibility was stocking generic odor eaters.

In response to:

First: Ok, cool.

Second: At the time of your suggestion that I reread your post I had stated that such a document exists.

Third: I can't quote it directly as I no longer have the manual, but it basically prohibits any organized activity that isn't pre-approved by the home office. The wording is pretty broad & would cover geocaching.

Finally: I have, in fact, explicitly described my position at Wal-Mart. In response to your almost identical question trying to call my qualifications into question.

 

I remember you describing your position very clearly and remembered being relieved (and posting it I think) that finally some of the guesswork taking place in the discussion would be gone.

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I don't get how you think that you can take a bunch of shots and then expect nothing to come to you in return because you end your post with

I am not sure how I need to put this so you but I am taking the gloves off and not putting them back on with you guys. I'm offering a handshake right now. Okay?

If you truly want to stop arguing, just stop arguing.

 

I was hoping he could see that what we are all doing is a waste of time. And on the other side of that, I am not going to let someone misquote my feelings. Especially when it appears to be done to cast me in a negative light, that is just plain insulting.

 

By offering the handshake, I was hoping that he could rise up where you failed to because as you are fully aware, I had attempted to make amends with you and you totally ignored me and choose to keep the angst flowing.

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BTW, a walmart class on how to break a union attempt does not appear to have anything to do with the price of tea.

Except for the fact that one of the biggest reasons for the policy excluding activities that aren't approved by the H.O. is to help stop union activities, I would agree. Read what I wrote:

The company sent me to a number of seminars [including]... union activities (from which I base my statements about allowable activities in the parking lot)
Edited by Too Tall John
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The currect discussion is a direct result of his other statement, so it's not at all a completely separate or unrelated issue. He decided to go ask for explicit premission and see what would really happen because a lot of us said that nothing bad would happen if someone did.

The current discussion is the result of a thread in which TGB made one of many statements. The overall discussion brought on this thread, not one statement. If you believe that he truly believed that doing what he did would result in GC.com crashing to its knees, do you truly think he'd have done it?
Several people actually asked him not to do it, because something bad might happen. They didn't think the site would shut down, but didn't want him kicking a hornets nest just to see if the bees would get mad. He did it anyway. So while I don't think he was trying to get the site shut down, he was trying to demonstrate that asking for explicit permission would have bad results, and was willing to put up with the bad results to prove a point.

 

He said someone seeking explicit permission could result in the site being shut down, we said no it couldn't.
Thank you for the quote. It looks like he was putting forth a worse case scenario to me, though.
He put forth the scenario and then said "Far fetched? I'd be interested in hearing why you think so." To me that sounds like he doesn't think it's far fetched. He thought it was a valid concern.

 

He said he might ask for explicit permission and show us what could happen, we said go ahead.
Actually, TGB has expressed his love for this sport, his intentions were not to get it shut down. His intentions were to see what Wal-Mart's official stance on geocaching would be.
What's the difference between "showing us what could happen" and "to see what Wal-Mart's official stance on geocaching would be" in this context? Seeing what their reaction would be IS seeing what could happen.

 

I suppose it is worth mentioning that the channels were made available to me to take it to the corporate level and I elected not take it. This is what people (one actually) asked me not to do.

 

He said if something bad happened as a result we shouldn't blame him, we said that sounds like an excuse.
He actually asked that nobody call him a geocop if WalMart LPCs got banned.
Okay. But doesn't that show that he was doing this while thinking that WalMart might ban LPCs as a result of his asking for explicit permission? In his mind it was possible for something really bad to come out of it, but he did it anyway just to see what would happen.

Again, since we are quoting what is going on in my mind, I was saying that if it was ever addressed on a corporate, top down level (for reasons I already explained) that could, worst case scenario, lead to WalMart asking for and receiving an injunction to shut the website down. I never said I wanted to happen. In fact I just put out a pretty concerted effort to help gather information on how to ask for permission. As for people seeing it, I pretty much selected the people that were interested in the right reason to contribute and review it. There's a least six people that have seen it have posted in this this thread in the last week. I choose not to show to you but because you don't seem to want to have a constructive conversation with me. It's all about proving me evil, wrong, and stupid to you.

 

He actually ended up having a conversation about hiding coords in a WalMart parking lot, but since he's being secrative with the details of the conversation we're not sure what he did or didn't actually do.

That's when I mentioned that the site hadn't shut down yet.

...snipped... If, as you say, he's since then said that he no longer believes this is possible, or something to that effect, I missed it.

Would the quotes I provided above help to clear up TGB's thoughts on the killing off of GC.com? None of them seem to say that this is what his biggest concerns are. Your quote, if it indeed is a statement of worse case scenario, doesn't mean it is what he really thinks will happen.
Again, his statement about it being far fetched or not sure makes it sound like that's what he believed could happen. Because he also added to his other concerns some about over populating - that doesn't sound like he's retracting his "site shut down" scenario. It's just additional arguments against LPCs. So no, the quotes you provided don't clear up his thoughts on the site being shut down. Maybe he'll read this and decide to post that he's changed his mind about it.

 

As I have said, I've really concentrated very hard on the facts surrounding this discussion and by doing that, I have come to center on a few issues and moved the other way on others. Didn't you learn anything?

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For the life of me, I just can't see the pleasure of looking for caches in a WM parking lot.

 

Maybe its just a way for quick smileys for score junkies. There is a great big world out there and one can do better.

 

I know to each his own and some people might actually enjoy hanging out in WM. What a life.

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For the life of me, I just can't see the pleasure of looking for caches in a WM parking lot.

Some of us enjoy them. A Wal-Mart lamp post hide is never my first choice when there are other, more fun-sounding hides available, but ... to some of us, ANY cache is better than NO cache. Besides, you never know when you're going to be pleasantly surprised.

 

If you can't see the pleasure in looking for caches in a Wal-Mart parking lot, that's fine. Understandable, even. Everyone’s personal taste is unique. For the life of me, I can't see the pleasure in many of the things that seem to regularly entertain large numbers of others. People Magazine. Vodka. Hunting. American Idol. Golf. Those sugary orange Circus Peanuts. The difference between you and me is that I don't begrudge those people their entertainment preferences. I don’t feel the need to imply that they are losers merely because they have preferences that are different from mine.

 

Maybe its just a way for quick smileys for score junkies. There is a great big world out there and one can do better.

Being a 'numbers junkie' is a legal and valid way to enjoy the game, is it not? (I prefer 'numbers junkie.' Your term 'score junkie' implies that a comparison between find counts is somehow meaningful.)

 

I know to each his own and some people might actually enjoy hanging out in WM. What a life.

Yes, some folks actually enjoy those types of hides. Why openly belittle them in a public forum? Do you also make loud, snide comments about the folks who order your least favorite flavor of ice cream at Ben and Jerry's?

 

Why criticize? You are equipped with the ability – and the right – to discontinue a cache hunt the very moment you become aware that Wal-Mart (or lamp posts, parking lots, film canisters, or whatever else it is you dislike) is involved. Exercise that power freely, but please don’t presume to put down the folks whose entertainment preferences are different from yours, yet who aren’t bothering you or infringing on your ability to enjoy your own version of this awesome pastime. :huh:

Edited by KBI
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Having worked for a Wal-Mart sized company where its properties are open to the public I knew this was going to be wasted time. Once my former employer found out there were Geocaches on their properties they removed all caches and banned them nationally and internationally.

 

Given all of the wonderful parks and wilderness areas where you live, you would not have found all of this time wasted. If you had created a unique Geocaching experience utlizing an a place that most people would not normally go to.

 

All you have done is verify what most of us know, that a national or mutli-national corporation is not going to allow an activity without an extensive review at the coporate level.

For the record, since this is a thread about permission on commercial property, what company did you work for?

 

Disney, Orlando, FL, six years. In Orlando they employ 60,000. I worked as a Supervisor in the Audio Visual Department of one of the largest convention hotels and later as a Special Events Manager.

Edited by magellan315
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My hope is to encourage people to place more interesting caches in more pleasant and interesting locations.

 

Lets face it, there are two visions about what geocaching should be (which admittedly are end members):

 

Vision 1. One drives to a commercial parking lots and uses the GPS to make a bee line to the lamp post, lifts the skirt, finds the cache, signs the log, and then adds 1 to one's score, and then drives on to the next parking lot and lamp post.

 

Vision 2. One is lead to scenic and interesting places that one might not otherwise have visited or known about. The cache may or may not involve some walking. The caches are thoughtfully placed to provided varying degrees of challenges.

 

It is my understanding that the sport of geocaching was created with Vision 2 in mind.

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My hope is to encourage people to place more interesting caches in more pleasant and interesting locations.

 

Lets face it, there are two visions about what geocaching should be (which admittedly are end members):

 

Vision 1. One drives to a commercial parking lots and uses the GPS to make a bee line to the lamp post, lifts the skirt, finds the cache, signs the log, and then adds 1 to one's score, and then drives on to the next parking lot and lamp post.

 

Vision 2. One is lead to scenic and interesting places that one might not otherwise have visited or known about. The cache may or may not involve some walking. The caches are thoughtfully placed to provided varying degrees of challenges.

 

It is my understanding that the sport of geocaching was created with Vision 2 in mind.

That's not the story I heard at all. The first geocache created was a hidden container for people that were in on the secret to come find with their GPSr. People that didn't know about it would never know it was there. The "interesting location" was the side of a curvy road on a mountain side. I've been to the original cache location and have seen it myself. It's not an impressive location, but the location wasn't the reason for placing the cache.

 

Maybe Vision 3 would be closer to the truth.

 

Vision 3: One is led to a container that is hidden for those with the coordinates to find with their GPSr. They can enjoy finding the container, signing the log book, trading swag (if present), all while being careful not to give the "secret" away to non-geocachers. The cache may or may not involve some walking, may or may not involve a nice view, may or may not require you to solve a puzzle, may or may not contain swag, may or may not be camo'd, etc. The caches are thoughtfully placed to provide varying degrees of challenges. Caches are not required to be found by every cacher, and can be skipped by those that prefer a different kind.

 

If you don't like 'em, skip 'em. Someone else will.

 

Sadly, there are some people that insist that all caches be entertaining to them, and if they don't enjoy a particular kind of hide then they should insult those that do, call for that type to be banned (as another person recently did in these forums), complain about the lack of single click filters while ignoring methods that require a little effort, and refuse to accept the fact that some people can enjoy all caches.

Edited by Mushtang
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My hope is to encourage people to place more interesting caches in more pleasant and interesting locations.

 

Lets face it, there are two visions about what geocaching should be (which admittedly are end members):

 

Vision 1. One drives to a commercial parking lots and uses the GPS to make a bee line to the lamp post, lifts the skirt, finds the cache, signs the log, and then adds 1 to one's score, and then drives on to the next parking lot and lamp post.

 

Vision 2. One is lead to scenic and interesting places that one might not otherwise have visited or known about. The cache may or may not involve some walking. The caches are thoughtfully placed to provided varying degrees of challenges.

Vision 3. One enjoys the option to either try out his/her super spy technique and grab the urban micros that may or may not be in scenic spots or find regular caches that may require a hike.

 

<Mushtang put it better>

Edited by sbell111
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It is my understanding that the sport of geocaching was created with Vision 2 in mind.

That was my impression as well. Sadly, this game has drifted away from that "standard", (is that the right word?), as the mainstream population has discovered it.

Is this where we describe the first cache and note how it doesn't match the ideals of some?

 

<Again, Mushtang put it better>

Edited by sbell111
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Didn't you learn anything?

Well, I just learned that in one post you offer to stop with the back and forth bickering and shake hands, and then just a few posts later you're bickering at me again.

 

What did you learn?

 

By learning, I was referring to the topic at hand not about me personally. I was saying that I learned a lot and in some areas and from that education my position did in fact change on a few issues. You were trying very hard to prove that I am flopping on issues when it was convenient and that's not true at all.

 

I am being very upfront with you and saying that I would like to continue posting in this forum and would like to spend my available time talking about the topic being discussed and maybe learning more about Geocaching. It's next to impossible to do that in the climate that is created by you and a few others. Take a look back, it's not me going after you or it hasn't been for some time.

 

That said, don't mistake the olive branch for an invitation to make a doormat out of me and don't expect me to not defend myself if someone is misrepresenting me or personally attacking me.

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For the life of me, I just can't see the pleasure of looking for caches in a WM parking lot.

 

Maybe its just a way for quick smileys for score junkies. There is a great big world out there and one can do better.

 

I know to each his own and some people might actually enjoy hanging out in WM. What a life.

 

The most unique thing I find about the game is that there are so many ways to participate. I've met people that are into collecting coins, some cache to build an amazing photo gallery, some people like to move travel bugs, some are into composing stories in their logs, there's some that won't seek a cache under a 4 star terrain and others that don't care about anything but the smiley. This list is endless. There's is no one way to be a "good geocacher" and one "correct" way to play. I think where you get into trouble in the forum and in the company of some other geocachers is when you assume that there is an intended path that geocachers -should- take to enjoy it.

 

Understand that we are discussing a WalMart hide because of what they represent not the merits of them specifically. They are the world's largest retailer and control more commercial property than you can imagine. There's tons of caches that have been put on their property without their global permission. You can read back and understand the other issues involved with caches being placed on their property but this thread is really not promoting hiding things at WalMart but some of the issues surrounding it.

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My hope is to encourage people to place more interesting caches in more pleasant and interesting locations.

 

Lets face it, there are two visions about what geocaching should be (which admittedly are end members):

 

Vision 1. One drives to a commercial parking lots and uses the GPS to make a bee line to the lamp post, lifts the skirt, finds the cache, signs the log, and then adds 1 to one's score, and then drives on to the next parking lot and lamp post.

 

Vision 2. One is lead to scenic and interesting places that one might not otherwise have visited or known about. The cache may or may not involve some walking. The caches are thoughtfully placed to provided varying degrees of challenges.

 

It is my understanding that the sport of geocaching was created with Vision 2 in mind.

I happen to enjoy both of those categories. I sometimes prefer one over the other, depending on the circumstance.

 

Speaking for myself: While I do prefer interesting caches in pleasant and interesting locations, my hope is to encourage people to (1) accept the fact that they may not enjoy every cache that exists, (2) accept the fact that such caches are easily avoidable, and therefore they do not have to hunt every cache that exists, and (3) be more tolerant of those who have different tastes in caching.

 

Lets face it, there are two visions about what geocachers could be:

 

Vision 1: One drives to a commercial parking lot and uses the GPS to make a bee line to the lamp post, lifts the skirt, finds the cache, signs the log, adds 1 to one's score, and then drives on to the next parking lot and lamp post. One does this repeatedly in an area with many such caches. One gets frustrated with the predictability and lack of originality, but then ... instead of simply learning how to avoid such tedium, one then proceeds to complain about it in the forums, expressing contempt not only for those who hide such caches, but for those who find them as well.

 

Vision 2: One seeks out the types of caches one likes, and avoids the types of caches one dislikes. One exercises patience based on the understanding that caches are placed by amateur fellow participants, not professional entertainers, and that each cache owner has a right to hide their cache – within the guidelines, of course – any way they like. One enjoys playing the game based on their own vision without feeling the need to actively impose their particular vision on other players. If one prefers, one drives right past all those boring parking lots the very next day and heads for the mountains/desert/forest/jungle/ice cap/open prairie.

 

It is my understanding that the sport of geocaching thrives with Vision 2 in mind.

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My hope is to encourage people to place more interesting caches in more pleasant and interesting locations.

 

Saying that you don't understand the way some choose to play isn't going to get you very far in the forum.

The best way to do that is to lead by example in the real world. Hide caches like you like to find. If there is a list of caches that your association puts out, find them and write encouraging logs, bring other new cachers to them.

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I was saying that I learned a lot and in some areas and from that education my position did in fact change on a few issues.

Sounds fair to me! I could truthfully describe myself the same way.

 

It's been a while since I've heard you call for the rule makers of this game to 'control the growth of' or 'limit' (partially ban) commercial property hides. If that's one of the issues where your position has changed, then I respect you for that.

 

It's amazing how many folks are unable to admit that they've been convinced to change their mind or modify their true opinion on something. I'm always happy to do it, myself -- less bickering that way.

 

The most unique thing I find about the game is that there are so many ways to participate. I've met people that are into collecting coins, some cache to build an amazing photo gallery, some people like to move travel bugs, some are into composing stories in their logs, there's some that won't seek a cache under a 4 star terrain and others that don't care about anything but the smiley. This list is endless. There's is no one way to be a "good geocacher" and one "correct" way to play. I think where you get into trouble in the forum and in the company of some other geocachers is when you assume that there is an intended path that geocachers -should- take to enjoy it.

Man, that's beautiful. Couldn't have said it better. That's my position 100%. :D

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For the life of me, I just can't see the pleasure of looking for caches in a WM parking lot....

 

It's a relative thing. I would not wake up first thing in the morning and say "WOW there is a new Wally world cache and I've just got to go see if that asphalt is as black as the last parking lot cache I did! Hooah!"

 

But. If my daughter is shopping for clothes and my eyes are glazing over as she discusses the latest nuance of why this shirt is in style and why that shirt that looks about the same to me isn't...I'm happy to be able to say. "I'll be back in 15 minutes, pick one by the time I get back" and go find the log.

 

Also if I've had a long day of caching and am coming off a string of DNF's I like to end the day on an easy find just so I end on a found it note.

 

Lastly after a long day of caching in the summer sun that has left me dirty, tired, and satisfied the only thing left is to stop off at a Wally world, find the easy cache pop in and buy some liquid refreshment to top the day off. I'd probably do that with our without the cache, but the cache is a bonus and can skew which retailer I go to.

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....If my daughter is shopping for clothes and my eyes are glazing over as she discusses the latest nuance of why this shirt is in style and why that shirt that looks about the same to me isn't...I'm happy to be able to say. "I'll be back in 15 minutes, pick one by the time I get back" and go find the log.....

 

Most reasonable and completely understandable reason I have ever seen for these caches to exist.

 

:D

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I was saying that I learned a lot and in some areas and from that education my position did in fact change on a few issues.

Sounds fair to me! I could truthfully describe myself the same way.

 

It's been a while since I've heard you call for the rule makers of this game to 'control the growth of' or 'limit' (partially ban) commercial property hides. If that's one of the issues where your position has changed, then I respect you for that.

 

It's amazing how many folks are unable to admit that they've been convinced to change their mind or modify their true opinion on something. I'm always happy to do it, myself -- less bickering that way.

 

The most unique thing I find about the game is that there are so many ways to participate. I've met people that are into collecting coins, some cache to build an amazing photo gallery, some people like to move travel bugs, some are into composing stories in their logs, there's some that won't seek a cache under a 4 star terrain and others that don't care about anything but the smiley. This list is endless. There's is no one way to be a "good geocacher" and one "correct" way to play. I think where you get into trouble in the forum and in the company of some other geocachers is when you assume that there is an intended path that geocachers -should- take to enjoy it.

Man, that's beautiful. Couldn't have said it better. That's my position 100%. :D

 

I guess that is one of the areas where I have come closer to center, calling for slow growth. I think that is putting a lot of energy into things that I not only can't really control and really don't effect me personally in the least. I think Groundspeak will manage to figure this out without me and I am better off focusing on things that are more interesting and applicable to how I do play the game.

 

When we first butted heads a few months ago, I was pretty new to this forum (I had posted once or twice a year ago) and had very little exposure to what geocachers think on a national level. I will say that caching in Hawaii is VERY different than most places, much more so than I thought. So there were a few surprises, such as some people really supporting LPCs and other hides like that. It was thought provoking and I feel my perspective is much broader because of it.

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I guess that is one of the areas where I have come closer to center, calling for slow growth.

If that's the case, then we still disagree. I'm happy you've softened your position, but I still think it's wrong to promote a ban – even a partial ban, as you describe – on an otherwise benign type of cache just because you don’t happen to like it.

 

As you said yourself so eloquently:

The most unique thing I find about the game is that there are so many ways to participate. I've met people that are into collecting coins, some cache to build an amazing photo gallery, some people like to move travel bugs, some are into composing stories in their logs, there's some that won't seek a cache under a 4 star terrain and others that don't care about anything but the smiley. This list is endless. There's is no one way to be a "good geocacher" and no one "correct" way to play. I think where you get into trouble in the forum and in the company of some other geocachers is when you assume that there is an intended path that geocachers -should- take to enjoy it.

 

When we first butted heads a few months ago, I was pretty new to this forum (I had posted once or twice a year ago) and had very little exposure to what geocachers think on a national level. I will say that caching in Hawaii is VERY different than most places, much more so than I thought. So there were a few surprises, such as some people really supporting LPCs and other hides like that.

Please be careful that you understand correctly. There's a big difference between defending LPCs and promoting LPCs. I'm a Staunch Defender, but I certainly don't prefer to hunt them myself, and I've yet to see anyone come out in support of promoting uninspired, predictable or boring hides in favor of other types of caches.

 

Yes, I defend the right of lame hides to exist. That doesn’t mean that I insist they exist, as many others have incorrectly concluded.

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I guess that is one of the areas where I have come closer to center, calling for slow growth.

If that's the case, then we still disagree. I'm happy you've softened your position, but I still think it's wrong to promote a ban – even a partial ban, as you describe – on an otherwise benign type of cache just because you don’t happen to like it.

 

It's okay to disagree without malice. I've come to the conclusion that I cache on a island in a very unique caching environment. Taking 4 or 5 business trips a year is not enough to even begin to understand issues in other areas or even nationally. So, I am not going to concern myself with it so much and refocus on other things more important to own my caching circle. The game in Hawaii is not in danger in any way and micro spew is not even in our vocabulary and like I said, I will let Groundspeak sort it out.

 

After reading these forums every day for the past few months, I feel very fortunate that our community is full of creativity and we are blessed with some of the most amazing cache locations on the planet. Most of the issues that I read about in here aren't even on our local radar. It's good know about them and fun to throw in my .02 from time to time but as far as calling for a national ban or a partial ban on anything.. I've put this in my personal non-issue file.

 

As you said yourself so eloquently:

The most unique thing I find about the game is that there are so many ways to participate. I've met people that are into collecting coins, some cache to build an amazing photo gallery, some people like to move travel bugs, some are into composing stories in their logs, there's some that won't seek a cache under a 4 star terrain and others that don't care about anything but the smiley. This list is endless. There's is no one way to be a "good geocacher" and no one "correct" way to play. I think where you get into trouble in the forum and in the company of some other geocachers is when you assume that there is an intended path that geocachers -should- take to enjoy it.

 

When we first butted heads a few months ago, I was pretty new to this forum (I had posted once or twice a year ago) and had very little exposure to what geocachers think on a national level. I will say that caching in Hawaii is VERY different than most places, much more so than I thought. So there were a few surprises, such as some people really supporting LPCs and other hides like that.

Please be careful that you understand correctly. There's a big difference between defending LPCs and promoting LPCs. I'm a Staunch Defender, but I certainly don't prefer to hunt them myself, and I've yet to see anyone come out in support of promoting uninspired, predictable or boring hides in favor of other types of caches.

 

Yes, I defend the right of lame hides to exist. That doesn’t mean that I insist they exist, as many others have incorrectly concluded.

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:D hey i had a thought ,doesnt walmart sell GPS equipment ,and we buy from them ,how would it look for any retailer who sells GPS systems 2 say no 2 people who buy them ,they can say no but they will have 2 take that into consideration .

 

The markup (profit, margin, difference between wholesale & retail) on a GPS is ok, but due to competition & price controls in place by the manufacturers, isn't as high as the markup on the other stuff geocachers buy on a regular basis: batteries, plasticware, and little toys. It can't hurt to mention the GPS sales, but the manager will be more impressed with the everyday purchases. :D As a reference for other geocachers, stressing the small stuff will be more helpful as well, because some of the smaller stores (like the nearest one to me) do not carry any gps equipment.

i also feel that it would b in the best interest of garmin and magellan etc. to approach the companies for us , lets get more people interested in this sport and out of their chairs , kids 2 , the more hides will generate more interest the more interest the more sales for the manufactures . its a selling feature and a sales man can take buyers to the sites in there lots and show them the game ,i believe it will snow ball 4 them

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:laughing: hey i had a thought ,doesnt walmart sell GPS equipment ,and we buy from them ,how would it look for any retailer who sells GPS systems 2 say no 2 people who buy them ,they can say no but they will have 2 take that into consideration .

 

The markup (profit, margin, difference between wholesale & retail) on a GPS is ok, but due to competition & price controls in place by the manufacturers, isn't as high as the markup on the other stuff geocachers buy on a regular basis: batteries, plasticware, and little toys. It can't hurt to mention the GPS sales, but the manager will be more impressed with the everyday purchases. :laughing: As a reference for other geocachers, stressing the small stuff will be more helpful as well, because some of the smaller stores (like the nearest one to me) do not carry any gps equipment.

i also feel that it would b in the best interest of garmin and magellan etc. to approach the companies for us , lets get more people interested in this sport and out of their chairs , kids 2 , the more hides will generate more interest the more interest the more sales for the manufactures . its a selling feature and a sales man can take buyers to the sites in there lots and show them the game ,i believe it will snow ball 4 them

i recently was at a wallmart and talkin with the sports manager about geocaching which he never heard of and himself owns a gps and uses it when he goes fishin , seemed interested and i gave him the web site 2 check out geocaching ,so im beginning 2 think its a matter time and education b4 and with people like u asking and the manufacture backing it maybe orginizing events 4 the sport 2 b more popular and widly accepted in the publics eye
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i also feel that it would b in the best interest of garmin and magellan etc. to approach the companies for us , lets get more people interested in this sport and out of their chairs , kids 2 , the more hides will generate more interest the more interest the more sales for the manufactures . its a selling feature and a sales man can take buyers to the sites in there lots and show them the game ,i believe it will snow ball 4 them

i recently was at a wallmart and talkin with the sports manager about geocaching which he never heard of and himself owns a gps and uses it when he goes fishin , seemed interested and i gave him the web site 2 check out geocaching ,so im beginning 2 think its a matter time and education b4 and with people like u asking and the manufacture backing it maybe orginizing events 4 the sport 2 b more popular and widly accepted in the publics eye

 

Nice points! I agree completely (see my past post below.) I especially like the idea of getting the vendors involved.

 

The Sporting Goods Department Manager could be a big proponent for geocaching, I think back to my time at Wal-Mart. The Sporting Goods Dept Mgr was approached about playing paintball. He got really excited, ended up getting a bunch of people hooked (including me) and sold a whole lot of gear, which caused the Home Office to increase the selection in that store. One more person telling the store manager that geocaching is good sure can't hurt...

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