What should I have done?

[+Totem Clan]

Not wanting to drag the thread this came from to far off topic I started a new topic.

 

Should I have not allowed the find?

 

I'm not sure if the cache is missing or just unrecoverable at this time. If the thaw continues as it has been, I will know today or tomorrow. Either way I will fix it.

 

What would you have done in this case?

 

After emailing the owner asking them to check, and describing the location we suspected the cache was missing from, the owners wrote back and said we had indeed found the spot and to count it as a find. Only after that discussion with the cache owner did we earn our smiley.

 

I just don't get this. How does one "earn a smiley" without finding a cache? A "smiley" is simply a log type to indicate that you found a cache, not something to be awarded. What exactly did you find anyway? Not a geocache. What you actually "earned" was a

 

I thought the point of this sport was to find geocaches, not where they were or might have been.

 

I got no problem with that. In fact I have a multi that it looks like the container at the final point is missing. I noted on the cache page that if cachers would email me exactly what was at the final point I would let them log it.

 

What you are doing is circumventing the guidelines by creating an illegal virtual.

 

I think a lot of these "awarded smileys" are because some owners are too lazy to maintain their caches and figure if they let the unsuccessful searchers pump their find count, they are off the hook.

I would tend to agree but not every case is the same. In the case of the cache mention. Finding the first point is as great a find as the cache container. Also I would in some cases it may be a one time thing with extenuating circumstances.

 

Note this cache: Defenders of Freedom

 

A group of cachers from came down from Canada to do some caching around here. They tried to find this cache. They were the ones that let me know it was missing/covered in ice. I would not want to deny them the find, that they may not be able to get again, because of a chunk of ice. The problem should be resolved in a day or two. Until then I thought it best to do it this way.

But maybe I'm wrong. I would like to know what you think. I'm always willing to listen and learn.

 

BTW after he contacted me via email I went to the hide and checked it out for myself before I let him log it. Even if the container is there, I as the owner could not get to it. I feel that it's my fault for letting the cache freeze to the point it was unrecoverable. I didn't want to punish the cacher for that. Next winter it will be better prepared, and maybe I can avoid this.

[+sbell111]

It's your cache. If you think it's appropriate to allow the find, I support you. I would possibly allow the find and temporarily disable the listing until I could straighten out the cache. This way, the 'find' doesn't cause anyone else to go after the cache.

Edited March 12, 2007 by sbell111

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Don't see why this needs a new thread, several of us in the other thread already said giving them the smilie was the right thing to do.

[+Criminal]

It sounds like you are encouraging the person to lie. They didn’t find your geocache, so if you direct them to log it as found, you are complicit in the lie. If your car battery dies in the parking lot and they give you a jump, would you ‘allow’ them an extra find?

 

Why are so many people ashamed of logging a DNF? In the case of a multi, they don’t have to repeat the whole thing, they just need to wait for the owner to replace the final and go straight there, log it, and they’re done. How poor is a person’s self esteem if they have to lie to play a game that’s based entirely on the honor system?

 

Get your smileys the old fashioned way, earn them.

 

Sheesh.

[+sbell111]

It sounds like you are encouraging the person to lie. They didn’t find your geocache, so if you direct them to log it as found, you are complicit in the lie. If your car battery dies in the parking lot and they give you a jump, would you ‘allow’ them an extra find? ...

That depends. How cold is it? Is it africa hot? Do I have my celphone? Is it raining? Am I in a hurry to get somewhere?

 

Based on the answers, I might let them have two extra finds.

Edited March 12, 2007 by sbell111

[+Totem Clan]

Don't see why this needs a new thread, several of us in the other thread already said giving them the smilie was the right thing to do.

Yes, and thank you. But what I want to know is, do you think I should temporarily disable the cache or not? Would you have kept the cache open the way I did?

 

It's not some much the found/not found issue. I just want to know what would have been the best thing to do given that I, as the cache owner, am not sure of the caches standing due to the ice.

[+Rockin Roddy]

If the container were visible in any way, or there were a way to have KNOWN the cache was there but unobtainable, I'd have to disagree with Criminal. If not, how do the "finders" KNOW they found it???

 

I'd disable the cache until it is findable again and go from there!

Edited March 12, 2007 by Rockin Roddy

[+sbell111]

Don't see why this needs a new thread, several of us in the other thread already said giving them the smilie was the right thing to do.

Yes, and thank you. But what I want to know is, do you think I should temporarily disable the cache or not? Would you have kept the cache open the way I did?

 

It's not some much the found/not found issue. I just want to know what would have been the best thing to do given that I, as the cache owner, am not sure of the caches standing due to the ice.

I would definitely have disabled the cache.

[+Totem Clan]

They didn’t find your geocache,

That's the point I don't know if they found it or not. It dam well sounds like they found it from what they emailed me, but because I didn't stay on top of this cache they could not pysically sign the log. Should I punish them for my mistake.

 

BTW I am not wanting to be kicked around for making a mistake, I'm wanting to know what to do in a case like this.

[+StarBrand]

I would presume it is under the ice/snow. Since I didn't find it (as has happened about 5 times in the past 4 months) - I log a DNF.

 

Snow/Ice increases the difficulty but you still have to find the thing and sign the log. IMHO. Otherwise all you found was a pile of snow/ice and not a geocache.

 

I don't see this as much different than not finding it when it is under rocks, leaves, sticks etc.....

Edited March 12, 2007 by StarBrand

[+BlueDeuce]

A while back I went looking for a 5/4 cache. Found the exact location and could even see the imprint in the dirt where the can once sat.

 

Reported it missing and the owner offered to allow us to claim a find.

 

No thanks.

 

Waited until it was replaced drove back (over an hour) and signed the log.

[+Totem Clan]

If the container were visible in any way, or there were a way to have KNOWN the cache was there but unobtainable, I'd have to disagree with Criminal. If not, how do the "finders" KNOW they found it???

 

I'd disable the cache until it is findable again and go from there!

 

It looked like the cache was not in the exact spot I put it. But what appeared to be the cache was a yard or two away and was covered in ice. They absolutely found the stop and would have signed the log if I hadn't let it freeze or had recovered it earlier.

 

Don't see why this needs a new thread, several of us in the other thread already said giving them the smilie was the right thing to do.

Yes, and thank you. But what I want to know is, do you think I should temporarily disable the cache or not? Would you have kept the cache open the way I did?

 

It's not some much the found/not found issue. I just want to know what would have been the best thing to do given that I, as the cache owner, am not sure of the caches standing due to the ice.

I would definitely have disabled the cache.

 

Thaks, that what I want to know.

Edited March 12, 2007 by Totem Clan

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Yes, I would give the folks who sent you notice that it was gone the smilie and then disabled it until you can check on it.

[+Always & Forever 5]

Allow the find and disable the cache until you can perform maintenance on it. That's my vote...

 

It's funny, but I have reviewed some of the logs of the cachers (names omitted) who are screaming "No find! No find!" and it's amazing to see how many have 25+ finds for one event cache (counting all the 'temps' placed for 3 hours) and have logged "finds" for each step of a multi. Funny how their rules only apply to "other people".

 

To quote someone above... "Sheesh!"

[+Criminal]

They didn’t find your geocache,

That's the point I don't know if they found it or not. It dam well sounds like they found it from what they emailed me, but because I didn't stay on top of this cache they could not pysically sign the log. Should I punish them for my mistake.

 

BTW I am not wanting to be kicked around for making a mistake, I'm wanting to know what to do in a case like this.

Despite what many believe, I’m pretty flexible about what constitutes a find.

 

I liken it to the $5 bill I found in the dryer, enough of it was there that the bank gave me a new one.

 

If they found the cache but couldn’t open it (due to ice, insufficient strength, it’s locked) then they need to go back and sign the log to claim it as found.

 

If they find the cache but the log is a pulpy mess, they should log it as found. They did at least touch it.

 

Looking at the log on the cache page, I agree it’s tough to tell.

[+Totem Clan]

Thank you for your help. I have disabled the cache until I can check on it properly.

[+Renegade Knight]

It's your cache. If you think it's appropriate to allow the find, I support you. I would possibly allow the find and temporarily disable the listing until I could straighten out the cache. This way, the 'find' doesn't cause anyone else to go after the cache.

 

I have allowed finds when they give enough info to know that had the cache been there they would have found it and instead they found the empty spot where the cache used to be. Why make them come back for a second trip? Like sbell111 says, at that point disable the cache until you can replace it.

 

Where you can't clearly tell they found the nothing that remains..it's still your call but in those cases I tend to tell them to call it a skunk.

[+Renegade Knight]

...It looked like the cache was not in the exact spot I put it. But what appeared to be the cache was a yard or two away and was covered in ice. They absolutely found the stop and would have signed the log if I hadn't let it freeze or had recovered it earlier. ...

 

Hmmm...

 

They found the cache but it's caked in ice and it would take heavy equipment and possible cache destruction to actually log it? I'd let them find that as well. Unless the Ice was intended as part of the retrieval difficulty. Again why make them come back when they had the experience and adventure you intended?

[Clan Riffster]

I think a key issue here is, "What constitutes a Find?" I have a definition that I apply to my own searches, which does not match the definition I apply to folks hunting for my caches. My personal rule is, if I locate a cache and sign the log, I get a smiley. The exception to my own rule would be ALR's. I won't knowing log an ALR as found unless I am willing to jump through whatever hoops the cache owner has established. Anything else gets either a DNF or a note.

 

The rule of thumb I apply to others is, a "Find" is anything that the cache owner & cache seeker agree is a find. Groundspeak has not defined what constitutes a find, so that leaves the job up to each of us. Calling someone a "Liar" simply because their definition does not match your's is insulting, inaccurate and not very productive. It's paramount to a couple major religions killing each other over who has the better invisible friend.

[+StarBrand]

...Again why make them come back when they had the experience and adventure you intended?

 

Having an experience is one thing. Finding a cache is another. Often they go well hand-in-hand but not always.

[+Mudfrog]

There is no clear cut answer to your question since there are so many opinions out there about what constitutes a find. Do what you feel is right in this case.

 

For me though, a find (on a regular cache) is when i locate that cache and sign a log of some sort. In the case you brought up, i probably wouldn't want to make a long special trip just to try for the it again. It's nice that you realize this and want to help in this situation but the fact remains, i DIDN"T find the cache. Yes, it would be disappointing if we knew we were on top of the cache and couldn't find or get to it. Still, it would have to stand as a DNF for me.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Not wanting to drag the thread this came from to far off topic I started a new topic.

 

Should I have not allowed the find?

 

I'm not sure if the cache is missing or just unrecoverable at this time. If the thaw continues as it has been, I will know today or tomorrow. Either way I will fix it.

 

What would you have done in this case?

 

After emailing the owner asking them to check, and describing the location we suspected the cache was missing from, the owners wrote back and said we had indeed found the spot and to count it as a find. Only after that discussion with the cache owner did we earn our smiley.

 

I just don't get this. How does one "earn a smiley" without finding a cache? A "smiley" is simply a log type to indicate that you found a cache, not something to be awarded. What exactly did you find anyway? Not a geocache. What you actually "earned" was a

 

I thought the point of this sport was to find geocaches, not where they were or might have been.

 

I got no problem with that. In fact I have a multi that it looks like the container at the final point is missing. I noted on the cache page that if cachers would email me exactly what was at the final point I would let them log it.

 

What you are doing is circumventing the guidelines by creating an illegal virtual.

 

I think a lot of these "awarded smileys" are because some owners are too lazy to maintain their caches and figure if they let the unsuccessful searchers pump their find count, they are off the hook.

I would tend to agree but not every case is the same. In the case of the cache mention. Finding the first point is as great a find as the cache container. Also I would in some cases it may be a one time thing with extenuating circumstances.

 

Note this cache: Defenders of Freedom

 

A group of cachers from came down from Canada to do some caching around here. They tried to find this cache. They were the ones that let me know it was missing/covered in ice. I would not want to deny them the find, that they may not be able to get again, because of a chunk of ice. The problem should be resolved in a day or two. Until then I thought it best to do it this way.

But maybe I'm wrong. I would like to know what you think. I'm always willing to listen and learn.

 

BTW after he contacted me via email I went to the hide and checked it out for myself before I let him log it. Even if the container is there, I as the owner could not get to it. I feel that it's my fault for letting the cache freeze to the point it was unrecoverable. I didn't want to punish the cacher for that. Next winter it will be better prepared, and maybe I can avoid this.

A good many of my extrme caches are covered in snow and ice for much of the winter, and I feel that it is not the cache owner's job to ensure that the cache is free of ice and snow.

[+mikeslomka]

I guess that it all boils down to two things: 1.) How do you feel about giving them the find, and 2.) How do they feel about claiming the find?

 

I did a pretty good multi and got to the last stage and could not find it. There was evidence that it had been muggled, and when I emailed the owner, he said that he had had problems with that cache being muggled before. He said that since I had done the rest of the cache that I could log it as a find. I felt that I didn't earn it, so I left it as a DNF. That's just my opinion though.

 

Since this isn't a true competition(there are no prizes awarded for most caches), there really aren't many hard rules about the recreation/activity/sport/hobby. If you and the cache finder agree that they deserve the find, then give it to them. My only advice would be to keep it fair.

 

If a person from 1000 miles away emails and asks for the based on what they find and a person from 1 mile away gives the same email, I would treat them the same way.

 

In the end, this is just a game. Wars will not be fought over DNF's and smilies, people will not lose their jobs because they could not find the cache, and the world will keep spinning in space. It's your cache, do what you want with it, it won't bother me one bit.

[+Totem Clan]

Having read what all of you have said here, I feel I should not have given the find to the cachers. Since it is done, I will not go back on my word and take it away from them. In the future I will not do it that way agian. I would never have ask someone to give me a find in that same way, so I should have never given one to them that way either.

 

Thank you very much for your help.

[Luckless]

Most of my caches have been buried under two feet of snow and are probably frozen in place. It's a little late, but after reading your story I think I'll go back and edit my cache pages so that they say the cache may not be accessible in the winter (use the icon), that way seekers can choose whether or not to hunt for it.

Duh, I should have done this beore now.

[Neos2]

The only way I would want to ask cachers to come back another time is if there was some unique experience to be had by interacting with the physical cache. I have seen a few caches that the container itself (and the opening of the the container) was an integral part of the total experience.

 

If the only thing they've "missed" was being able to write their name on my paper, well they can always email me a photocopy of their signature. If they've had the rest of the experience (the hike, the view, the challenge of locating the hiding spot) then they have completed all the inimitable parts of the cache and they really have "done" the cache. Why shouldn't they have the find?

[+StarBrand]

The only way I would want to ask cachers to come back another time is if there was some unique experience to be had by interacting with the physical cache. I have seen a few caches that the container itself (and the opening of the the container) was an integral part of the total experience.

 

If the only thing they've "missed" was being able to write their name on my paper, well they can always email me a photocopy of their signature. If they've had the rest of the experience (the hike, the view, the challenge of locating the hiding spot) then they have completed all the inimitable parts of the cache and they really have "done" the cache. Why shouldn't they have the find?

uhhh - because they didn't find a cache.

 

The Experience can be logged and shared just as eaily in a DNF log.

[Neos2]

The only way I would want to ask cachers to come back another time is if there was some unique experience to be had by interacting with the physical cache. I have seen a few caches that the container itself (and the opening of the the container) was an integral part of the total experience.

 

If the only thing they've "missed" was being able to write their name on my paper, well they can always email me a photocopy of their signature. If they've had the rest of the experience (the hike, the view, the challenge of locating the hiding spot) then they have completed all the inimitable parts of the cache and they really have "done" the cache. Why shouldn't they have the find?

uhhh - because they didn't find a cache.

 

The Experience can be logged and shared just as eaily in a DNF log.

I guess that depends on what you think of as "the cache"--to me, it's a lot more than just the piece of paper. To others, it appears, the paper is paramount.

[+StarBrand]

 

I guess that depends on what you think of as "the cache"--to me, it's a lot more than just the piece of paper. To others, it appears, the paper is paramount.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Waymarking. Leading folks to a location to enjoy the experience. AKA - finding somewhere.

 

Me - I perfer Geocaching - finding a container somewhere.

[+Retcon]

Last month, I "found" a cache. It was a micro in the woods (but a good hide. Proof I don't hate micros en masse, but only certain ones) and where it was had filled with water, and then that water had frozen. It was about 10-20 degrees Farenheit, and had been for about a month. Short of a blow torch, I wasn't getting that cache. But, I could see it. In fact, I could even *touch* part of it. But I couldn't actually retrieve it or sign the log.

 

I logged it as a find, and have no qualms about it. I logged in that find that I couldn't sign the log, and why. The owner then verified this in another log. Personally I think we both fulfilled our obligations.

[+Team Noltex]

There is no clear cut answer to your question since there are so many opinions out there about what constitutes a find. Do what you feel is right in this case.

 

For me though, a find (on a regular cache) is when i locate that cache and sign a log of some sort. In the case you brought up, i probably wouldn't want to make a long special trip just to try for the it again. It's nice that you realize this and want to help in this situation but the fact remains, i DIDN"T find the cache. Yes, it would be disappointing if we knew we were on top of the cache and couldn't find or get to it. Still, it would have to stand as a DNF for me.

This is pretty much my line of thinking as well. The premise of geocaching is that someone hides a container with a logbook, I find it and sign it. If the cache isn't there when I arrive, it's a DNF. Simple. I claim the find because I actually FOUND IT, not that I gave a pretty good effort but came up short for some reason.

 

People whine and complain "But I drove a LONG way to find it and it was missing so I DESERVE a find. Waaa!". Check out my log here on January 29 for my answer to that. For the second year in a row, I traveled over 6400 miles to Chile for a trip unrelated to geocaching, and each time I only had one chance at a cache. Came up empty both times. The first one I found the hole in the rock where the cache had been, but no container. Turned out it had just been disabled because it was missing. Logged a DNF, dealt with my disappointment like a big boy and promised I'd find one next year.

 

This year, same thing. My search was both thorough and frantic, given that I had a plane to catch and the fact that my wife had told me not to bother coming home if I DNF'ed again. But no cache. It turned out that the owner had disabled the cache THE SAME DAY! He said he thought it was still there but had fallen down into the tree out of reach. Trust me, I had momentary thoughts of claiming a find, after all, who would know, right? But that's not the standard. Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is looking, even when it doesn't matter. Like claiming a smiley. I couldn't do it and be honest with myself. When the cache owner emailed me offering to allow a find, I had to turn him down. I logged a DNF, dealt with my disappointment and my wife's withering scorn like a big boy, and promise I'll find one next year.

 

Why hold myself to a rigid standard on something silly like a game that doesn't really matter? Basically for the same reason I don't cheat at solitare. What fun would that be? If the purpose is to challenge myself by reaching an arbitrary goal, in this case finding caches, what good is it to fake it? I'd only be cheating myself, and I personally don't happen to like cheats. I accept the rules and try to play by them.

[+Totem Clan]

Last month, I "found" a cache. It was a micro in the woods (but a good hide. Proof I don't hate micros en masse, but only certain ones) and where it was had filled with water, and then that water had frozen. It was about 10-20 degrees Farenheit, and had been for about a month. Short of a blow torch, I wasn't getting that cache. But, I could see it. In fact, I could even *touch* part of it. But I couldn't actually retrieve it or sign the log.

 

I logged it as a find, and have no qualms about it. I logged in that find that I couldn't sign the log, and why. The owner then verified this in another log. Personally I think we both fulfilled our obligations.

Don't have much of problem with that. You "FOUND" the cache. You recovered the cache. You tried to sign the log.

 

I've never had that happen to me, yet, but I would claim a find, if the owner did not object.

 

If I were back in the area later, I would probably stop by and sign the log then.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gawd, I becoming a purist.

[+Totem Clan]

 

People whine and complain "But I drove a LONG way to find it and it was missing so I DESERVE a find. Waaa!".

Not arguing with you, because I agree. But in defence of the cachers in this case, they didn't whine. In fact it was because of there attitude that I let the 'find it.' They emailed me more to report on the cache than to ask for a find. Just clarifying that.