Newbie: Allowed placement/hiding techniques?

[+Team Yofa]

I'm going to be submitting my first cache soon (a puzzle cache). I've read the "Off-limit (Physical) Caches" section of the guidelines, and I've read people on these forms argue various interpretations of these guidelines. Being new to geocaching, I've only found around 80 caches, so I haven't seen the full diversity of what is possible. I'm trying to come up with concealment ideas, but I'm not sure if they're going to be something the reviewer will approve of.

 

So, can any of you reviewers out there give me guidance on these following scenarios?

 

Assume in each of these scenarios that a small slim stainless steel pill holder is being used.

 

Scenario 1: Can you drill a hole in a stake, place the container in that stake, and simply put the steak into the ground, say, 2 inches deep? What about 5 inches deep? This is a stake that was not previously in that environment, but certainly has no negative impact on that environment (e.g. urban areas).

 

Scenario 2: Consider a (less than a foot long) 3/4" PVC pipe sealed on one end and with a removable cap on the other. A slim container is attached via chain to that top cap. The pipe is placed in the ground, with only the cap exposed. This requires no digging to find (simply remove cap which pulls out chain). It also does not require digging to create this cache, since after a good rain, you could push it into the ground as you would a stake. It would also be white and use a rounded cap to differentiate it from a sprinkler, and thus, not encourage people to start taking apart sprinklers.

 

Scenario 3: Let's say you find supporting wooden posts to either side of a young tree. Could you drill a small hole near the top of the support post (near the top, so as not to compromise its strength) and place a slim container in it? These "temporary" support posts remain many years after the tree no longer needs the assistance. I'm trying to get a feel for the guideline "Caches that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object...".

 

Scenario 4: Instead of modifying the existing support post, can you instead buy your own support post, drill the hole in it at home (where no one will see ya with a cordless power drill), and then add this as an additional post next to the tree?

 

The fundamental rule of bureaucracy is to not ask permission/clarification of someone who's not authorized to give a "yes". In that spirit, I'm interested in what all of you think, but I'm only interested in getting a "no" from a proper reviewer.

 

Thanks!

 

Team Yofa

[+Prime Suspect]

3 and 4 are most likely a no-go. Drilling is defacing. And you're not likely to be able to set a fake support post without using some sort of digging implement.

[+sbell111]

I'm not a reviewer, but I'll give my opinion.

Scenario 1: Can you drill a hole in a stake, place the container in that stake, and simply put the steak into the ground, say, 2 inches deep? What about 5 inches deep? This is a stake that was not previously in that environment, but certainly has no negative impact on that environment (e.g. urban areas).

Pushing a stake into the ground would not violate the digging guideline, in my opinion.

Scenario 2: Consider a (less than a foot long) 3/4" PVC pipe sealed on one end and with a removable cap on the other. A slim container is attached via chain to that top cap. The pipe is placed in the ground, with only the cap exposed. This requires no digging to find (simply remove cap which pulls out chain). It also does not require digging to create this cache, since after a good rain, you could push it into the ground as you would a stake. It would also be white and use a rounded cap to differentiate it from a sprinkler, and thus, not encourage people to start taking apart sprinklers.

Pushing this item into the ground would not violate any guidelines, in my opinion.

Scenario 3: Let's say you find supporting wooden posts to either side of a young tree. Could you drill a small hole near the top of the support post (near the top, so as not to compromise its strength) and place a slim container in it? These "temporary" support posts remain many years after the tree no longer needs the assistance. I'm trying to get a feel for the guideline "Caches that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object...".

If you received explicit permission to alter the object, and stated this fact on the cache page, the reviewer would likely allow it. Otherwise, I believe that it would be denied or archived for the reason you gave.

Scenario 4: Instead of modifying the existing support post, can you instead buy your own support post, drill the hole in it at home (where no one will see ya with a cordless power drill), and then add this as an additional post next to the tree?

I suspect that this would be allowed. It's little different than many other methods of concealment that are generally accepted as OK. Again, the post would have to be placed without 'digging'. Edited March 9, 2007 by sbell111

[+ReadyOrNot]

If the property that is being defaced is owned by the cache placer and brought to the cache location, is it still considered "Defacement" according to the guidelines? IMO, as long as you own the post and drill it at home and bring it to be used at the cache location and place it without using a shovel, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

[+wimseyguy]

I suggest contacting your local reviewer directly. Many of them do not venture into these forums. Look at the pages of some of the caches nearby. Their "published" log should be the first entry there.

Click on their profile link and send them a direct email to get your questions answered by the person whose opinion really matters, not ours.

 

edit danged dyslexic fingers

Edited March 9, 2007 by wimseyguy

[+Cardinal Red]

Scenario 4: Instead of modifying the existing support post, can you instead buy your own support post, drill the hole in it at home (where no one will see ya with a cordless power drill), and then add this as an additional post next to the tree?

I suspect that this would be allowed. It's little different than many other methods of concealment that are generally accepted as OK. Again, the post would have to be placed without 'digging'.

 

I understand that in this specific case nothing was defaced because the hider provided their own post to drill a hole in. BUT ... someone finds the Cache and thinks, that's a great idea. They go find an existing post in a park and drill a hole in it. Then submit it for review.

 

To quote Judy Tenuta: "It could happen!"

[+Team Yofa]

I suggest contacting your local reviewer directly. Many of them do not venture into these forums. Look at the pages of some of the caches nearby. Their "published" log should be the first entry there.

Click on their profile link and send them a direct email to get your questions answered by the person whose opinion really matters, not ours.

 

Ah, now there's good advice. I didn't know how to look up my local reviewer, so thank you. It looks like it may be either "Nomex", or "Krypton". I'll contact both of them today.

 

Thanks again,

 

Team Yofa.

[+sbell111]

Scenario 4: Instead of modifying the existing support post, can you instead buy your own support post, drill the hole in it at home (where no one will see ya with a cordless power drill), and then add this as an additional post next to the tree?

I suspect that this would be allowed. It's little different than many other methods of concealment that are generally accepted as OK. Again, the post would have to be placed without 'digging'.

I understand that in this specific case nothing was defaced because the hider provided their own post to drill a hole in. BUT ... someone finds the Cache and thinks, that's a great idea. They go find an existing post in a park and drill a hole in it. Then submit it for review.

 

To quote Judy Tenuta: "It could happen!"

I somewhat agree with you. There is a thin line there somewhere, but I don't know where it is.

 

If I bring a rock from home and paint coords on it, is it OK?

 

If I 'plant' a fake electrical box, is it OK?

 

If I install a fake sprinkler head, is it OK?

 

What about a fake nest or bird house?

 

These are all variations on this same theme.

Edited March 9, 2007 by sbell111

[+briansnat]

If I bring a rock from home and paint coords on it, is it OK?

 

I know of a cache where the owner took about half a dozen pretty large rocks from around his house, carved petroglyphs and coordinates on them and used them as stages of a multi cache (it was a pretty cool cache BTW). The reviewer published that cache, but if a park ranger were to check out that cache he may not know that someone wasn't defacing existing rocks. Also many finders, particularly noobs, might think its a great idea and try to copy it not realizing that the rocks were brought in by the cache hider.

 

My point is that you should think about how it will look to others and not whether it technically conforms to the guidelines.

[+StarBrand]

Placing your own posts and stakes will be indistigishable from existing ones in the area. Looks like a fairly gray area to me. I personally wouldn't do it as it may encourage others to use similar techniques without realizing these were brought from home. You can be creative - no need to drill holes in anything for a cache.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I'm going to be submitting my first cache soon (a puzzle cache). I've read the "Off-limit (Physical) Caches" section of the guidelines, and I've read people on these forms argue various interpretations of these guidelines. Being new to geocaching, I've only found around 80 caches, so I haven't seen the full diversity of what is possible. I'm trying to come up with concealment ideas, but I'm not sure if they're going to be something the reviewer will approve of.

 

So, can any of you reviewers out there give me guidance on these following scenarios?

 

Assume in each of these scenarios that a small slim stainless steel pill holder is being used.

 

Scenario 1: Can you drill a hole in a stake, place the container in that stake, and simply put the steak into the ground, say, 2 inches deep? What about 5 inches deep? This is a stake that was not previously in that environment, but certainly has no negative impact on that environment (e.g. urban areas).

 

Scenario 2: Consider a (less than a foot long) 3/4" PVC pipe sealed on one end and with a removable cap on the other. A slim container is attached via chain to that top cap. The pipe is placed in the ground, with only the cap exposed. This requires no digging to find (simply remove cap which pulls out chain). It also does not require digging to create this cache, since after a good rain, you could push it into the ground as you would a stake. It would also be white and use a rounded cap to differentiate it from a sprinkler, and thus, not encourage people to start taking apart sprinklers.

 

Scenario 3: Let's say you find supporting wooden posts to either side of a young tree. Could you drill a small hole near the top of the support post (near the top, so as not to compromise its strength) and place a slim container in it? These "temporary" support posts remain many years after the tree no longer needs the assistance. I'm trying to get a feel for the guideline "Caches that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object...".

 

Scenario 4: Instead of modifying the existing support post, can you instead buy your own support post, drill the hole in it at home (where no one will see ya with a cordless power drill), and then add this as an additional post next to the tree?

 

The fundamental rule of bureaucracy is to not ask permission/clarification of someone who's not authorized to give a "yes". In that spirit, I'm interested in what all of you think, but I'm only interested in getting a "no" from a proper reviewer.

 

Thanks!

 

Team Yofa

Actually I hope that a Reviewer would address these here.

 

Yes, there is and must be interpretation, flexibility and discretion available to the Reviewers, but none of the scenarios here should require it.

 

In these specific examples the answers should be unified across all Reviewers.

 

FWIW (not much!), I think all but #3 are ok.

 

#s 1, 2 and 4 are no different than creating and placing any unique container. #3 calls for modifying an existing object and should not be allowed.

 

The Reviewers constant refrain is that listed caches don't set a precedent - but that works both ways - if it is within the guidelines place it and don't worry about other's copying it or setting a bad precedent.

 

That's why the Reviewers deal with cache listings each on their own merit.

[thisisfun.wow]

You could say something like "I brought the cache container from home" on the cache page. It can't be a spoiler though.

How are you going to fit a micro into a tree stake? They are like 1/4 inch wide. The log might get wet.