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This is a link to a news article about a Suspicious Box chained to a street sign. Our main go to person for our own traffic counters was laughing his butt off over this.

 

MyFox Boston Video

http://www.myfoxboston.com/myfox/pages/Hom...mp;pageId=1.1.1

 

This was a traffic counter. Every person reading this has seen them even if you never thought about it. We drive by them and over them regularly. They are used by planning agencies and the transporatation folks to count traffic as part of their regular jobs. The police who patrol the streets would drive over them more often than regular folks. They are there with permission doing a job and still they are blown up.

 

The point here is that caches are not the problem. Random harmless things are going to get blown up just because they are reported and the crews that respond are going to play it safe. Simple as that. When the sheriff, or other politicians start complaining. Remember that when they blame real life for wasting their time it's entirly because that's how they set up the rules. Not the street department, and not geocachers.

 

Oh, and while he was laughing at this one he also mentioned a counter for use on trails was phoned in and blown up. Parks departments use these to track trail usage for the same reason streeet departments track road usage.

 

(Link may take some mucking with to make it work)

Edited by Renegade Knight
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What the heck has the Boston bomb squad been smoking?

 

First they're blowing up lite-brite boxes, and now traffic counters?

 

These counters, are in use in hundreds of places throught the USA, and the world.

The lite-brite box advertising was also in use in various other cities in the USA.

 

How come Boston is the only place blowing them all up?

Somebody's gotta get a grip and cut back on the caffeinated beverages or something.

They should be embarrassed at their stupidity.

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This is what Bruce Schneier, the security expert, calls "CYA Security".

It's an unavoidable fact of life. If a suspicious package goes unreported and a Bad Thing happens, no one gets fired because every knows that "Bad Things happen". If the most innocent of objects gets reported, the security people involved have to react as if it's a nuke because, on the slight chance of a negative outcome, security will be raked over the coals because "they were warned". And the negative outcome may be quite indirect: some driver does a double-take going past it and causes an accident. It's just the way we and our media are. You just can't blame security folk for acting this way.

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This is what Bruce Schneier, the security expert, calls "CYA Security".

It's an unavoidable fact of life. If a suspicious package goes unreported and a Bad Thing happens, no one gets fired because every knows that "Bad Things happen". If the most innocent of objects gets reported, the security people involved have to react as if it's a nuke because, on the slight chance of a negative outcome, security will be raked over the coals because "they were warned". And the negative outcome may be quite indirect: some driver does a double-take going past it and causes an accident. It's just the way we and our media are. You just can't blame security folk for acting this way.

 

Yes, but why didn't the other cities also freak out about the lite-brite advertising?

There's CYA, and there's rationality. Something's wrong here.

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... You just can't blame security folk for acting this way.

Well, actually, I can.

 

Whatever happened to all the money that was spent on investigational machinery? X-Ray machines, explosives sniffers, robotic analyzers of various nature, etc?

 

I'm no expert, far from it, but aren't they supposed to have literally millions of dollars of 'stuff' and training to identify what is and what isn't a threat?

 

If after all that they have spent on equipment and training they can't identify a traffic counter, the taxpayers of Boston should demand their money back!

 

Responding to a call of a suspicious package is one thing. Not using the equipment you have to determine if it's indeed a threat is quite another.

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A small, elite police unit with unbelievably large budget gets a chance to show what they do in the public eye.

It's much easier to get your budget approved or increased if you can point to things you have done.

On the other hand they may have overdone it in Boston. Now they have to explain why they blew up so much stuff in such a short time.

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When the sheriff, or other politicians start complaining. Remember that when they blame real life for wasting their time it's entirly because that's how they set up the rules. Not the street department, and not geocachers.

 

You're wrong. The Sheriff and/or politicians didn't set up the rules. Overly letigious individuals who are trying to strike it rich against the government set up the rules. Judges who want to legislate from the bench set up the rules. Risk management and insurance companies set up the rules.

 

When a local government pays out millions of dollars because they didn't respond properly to a call, they develop a policy that responds to all policies the same way. If they blow up a cache, then they blow up a cache...or a traffic counter, or whatever.

 

Nobody ever got sued and ended up paying punitive damages out of their own pocket for over-responding to a situation. And until you have spent time going through a lawsuit where you are being accused of not providing a consistent level of service, you have no idea what it is like.

 

If that would have been a bomb and people would have been hurt or killed, people would now be screaming that the police should have noticed it and should have done something. Anybody that was injured would be suing the city of Boston, along with the families of anybody that died.

 

Whatever happened to all the money that was spent on investigational machinery? X-Ray machines, explosives sniffers, robotic analyzers of various nature, etc?

 

I'm no expert, far from it, but aren't they supposed to have literally millions of dollars of 'stuff' and training to identify what is and what isn't a threat?

 

If after all that they have spent on equipment and training they can't identify a traffic counter, the taxpayers of Boston should demand their money back!

 

Responding to a call of a suspicious package is one thing. Not using the equipment you have to determine if it's indeed a threat is quite another.

 

Since x-ray machines only "see" solid objects, and not mushy stuff like c-4, semtex, or any other number of homemade explosives, they don't do much good in a situation like this. What the bomb techs most likely saw was a bunch of wires and stuff, and instead of sending a guy over to open it and possibly loose a human life, they did the safest thing and just blew it up.

 

People like to blame law enforcement for over-reacting, but there is a reason for it. My department has a 19 page policy on pursuits. Why? Because about 12 years ago, and officer chased a guy and it resulted in the death of 4 teenagers. The city payed out millions of dollars and after that a policy was created that spelled out exactly what the reason was for a valid chase. The same is true for our 16 page OWI policy and our 32 page domestic violence policy.

 

It's cheaper and safer to just blow up a suspicious item than it is to attempt to get inside of it and see what it actually is.

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Here's a bit of free education for those who are curious about the thought process involved in detonating an IED:

Folks join explosive ordinance disposal teams for one reason: They like blowing stuff up. I've had the pleasure of dealing with numerous EOD teams from numerous jurisdictions, and that one single factor is their greatest draw. Those folks who love blowing stuff up the most are the ones who stick with it long enough to participate in setting policy. The end result is, if an EOD team responds, something's getting demolished. It tickles me to no end to be amongst these guys when they are discussing a suspect package.

"Have you identified it?"

"Yes Sir, it's a box of pears."

"What's the game plan?"

"We're gonna trigger it......duh"

 

From this post in the pipe bomb thread. I figure it's relevant. And in any case, it's pretty funny.

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If the most innocent of objects gets reported, the security people involved have to react as if it's a nuke

Actually, that's not technically correct. What they "have" to do is respond, evaluate & react. In this case, as in their Lite Brite screw up, they acted badly. Had they evaluated the traffic counter, they would've discovered its rather mundane nature. Instead, they opted to disengage their brains long enough to make something go BOOM.

 

You're wrong. The Sheriff and/or politicians didn't set up the rules.

Actually, that's precisely who sets the rules. The politicians enact the laws which govern us. The Sheriff provides the policies that govern his/her deputies. Those are the rules. If the politicians and heads of law enforcement choose to create laws & policies which provide nothing more than knee jerk reactions to complaints, they've already lost the game, and they are no longer providing a worthwhile service to the communities that hired/elected them. Once our leaders decide that the insurance companies are going to establish our policies, those leaders need to be replaced.

 

If that would have been a bomb and people would have been hurt or killed, people would now be screaming that the police should have noticed it and should have done something. Anybody that was injured would be suing the city of Boston, along with the families of anybody that died.

Perhaps. But it wasn't a bomb. Anybody that spent 5 seconds looking at it would know it wasn't a bomb. The EOD techs most definitely knew it wasn't a bomb. Yet, they decided to further feed the paranoia running rampant through Bean Town and blew it up anyway. Somehow this is providing a service to the community? One phone call to the Roads Dept would have verified, (for any brain dead folks involved), that they did, in fact, have a traffic counting device at that location. Rather than make a simple phone call, they decided to blow it up.

 

It's cheaper and safer to just blow up a suspicious item than it is to attempt to get inside of it and see what it actually is.

What's even cheaper is to evaluate and determine that it's not a bomb.

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ied%20hidden%20in%20concrete.JPG

 

I saw a cache a couple of days ago that looked remarkably like this one. A large piece of PVC with a rounded edge inside of a hollowed out log.

 

During the war in Viet Nam, the enemy used to booby trap ammo cans all the time. Ask a Viet Nam combat vet if he would have ever opened up an ammo can that he found at an enemy camp.

 

The whole purpose of IED's is to disguise them and make them look like some mundane object so that people won't think twice about it.

 

Unless somebody here is on the Boston PD bomb squad, and knows exactly what went on, then you are being irresponsible in questioning their intelligence, dedication, and professionalism.

 

In this case, the object did in fact turn out to be something mundane, but it could have just as easily been something different. Nobody here knows what type of intelligence that they were able to gather. Maybe the only person that could get the information for them had gone home for the day and was unreachable. We don't know. In law enforcement, we get frequent updates that aren't released to the public. Sometimes these updates say that there have been non-specific threats to major cities. Boston would definitly qualify as a major city.

 

Folks, the fact is that we have entered the global terrorism game. We managed to stay out of it for a long time, but now it is here in our own backyard. Law enforcement is still learning how to deal with this new threat. Cut these guys some slack. We don't have the experience that the Israelis, the Brits, or the Germans do. Eventually, we will catch up and these types of things won't happen any more.

 

Hopefully since this incident happened, somebody from the streets department has put together a list of the locations of all the traffic counters. Since I got into geocaching, I have thought that it would be a very good idea to keep the local pd's up to date on the caches that are being placed in their area. The responsiblity does not rest squarely on the shoulders of the the men and women in law enforcement. They can not be expected to know everything about everything. Look around the place where you work. A police department is made up of the same type of people. Because they are pulled right from the population.

 

I'll get off of my soapbox now.

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When a local government pays out millions of dollars because they didn't respond properly to a call, they develop a policy that responds to all policies the same way. If they blow up a cache, then they blow up a cache...or a traffic counter, or whatever.

 

Everything you said is true. But there's still a line to be drawn.

 

Why is it Boston that's been involved in a second embarrassing unnecessary over-reaction?

In the case of the lite-brite advertising, one of the officials in one of the other cities was interviewed and asked if they had noticed them. He said yes, but they didn't appear to be dangerous. So they remained in place for weeks with no problems.

 

What does the Boston bomb squad know about lite-brites that the others don't?

 

In the current example, it's one of the cities own agencies (or state's?) that put the object there. Bomb squads should be familiar with these types of very common devices. Had they never seen one before? Was it a brand new type of traffic counter that they didn't recognise? Or is this just incompetence?

 

While caution is always in order, there has to be a modicum of rationality.

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We had someone place bombs in mailboxes in this area. Since we didn't know how long it was going to continue, a lot of people removed the lid from their mailbox just so they and the carrier wouldn't have to wonder if this one was the one.

 

After the guy was caught some people decided that they would leave the lid off permanently just because of what happened.

 

That’s all. Take whatever you want from that.

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Unless somebody here is on the Boston PD bomb squad, and knows exactly what went on, then you are being irresponsible in questioning their intelligence, dedication, and professionalism.

 

Actually, I'd say that it is our duty as citizens to question the intelligence, dedication and professionalism of our elected officials and the policies they enact through their agencies and government employees.

 

They are over reacting, and they need to calm down. After all, more people die from the flu each year than have died from terrorism in the past several decades combined.

 

(about 41,000 /year on average in the USA) http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/163/2/181

 

The public is going through a period of hysteria that is irrational. We should be more afraid of a greasy plate of french fries than an unidentified package on the street. We're much more likely to die from that cholesterol. Our public officials and agencies have a responsibility to recognize that there will be lots of calls about suspicious packages as a result of this hysteria.

Edited by headybrew
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Actually, that's precisely who sets the rules. The politicians enact the laws which govern us. The Sheriff provides the policies that govern his/her deputies. Those are the rules. If the politicians and heads of law enforcement choose to create laws & policies which provide nothing more than knee jerk reactions to complaints, they've already lost the game, and they are no longer providing a worthwhile service to the communities that hired/elected them. Once our leaders decide that the insurance companies are going to establish our policies, those leaders need to be replaced.

 

What happens if you operate a motor vehicle without insurance and get into an accident and kill or seriously injure somebody else?? The money comes out of your pocket, that's what. Police departments carry insurance, just like any other business, homeowner, driver, etc. The biggest difference is that you as a vehicle owner(or business owner, or homeowner) don't have people filing frivolous lawsuits against you on a monthly basis. If a police department doesn't carry this insurance, and they are sued, that money comes out of the city's pocket. Even if the city is completely in the right, there is still a chance that a liberal judge or jury will award a ridiculous decision to the person who is suing the department. Wayne County, Michigan(where Detroit is located) is legendary for awarding giant decisions to plaintiffs in suits against police departments, even if there is a mountain of evidence completely exhonerating the department.

 

Even if the departments won every lawsuit(not going to happen) it would cost them more than double what they actually pay out. Our department lost a suit last year because a person claimed that they were denied medication, when they told us during booking that they weren't on medication and they never asked us for it. The person also suffered no injuries. The city paid out more than I made in the last 7 years.

 

If the city continues to pay out large sums of money, then the citizens of said city are going to be very unhappy when their tax bill triples to pay for all of the money being paid out to lawsuits. Then they are going to fire everybody at the top and get new people in who will be 100 times more cautious then the previous guy. So the administrations try to reduce liabilty by being overly cautious.

 

In this instance, was anybody hurt? Nope. Putting aside the human aspect for a moment, do you know how much it costs to train a police officer? The training that they get is specialized and very costly. Now add even more specialized training like EOD. You are talking about an investment of a couple of hundred thousand dollars. Not to mention how bad it would look on CNN if little bits of some bomb tech ended up all of the street.

 

Now, how much did it cost to blow up an unknown device? A couple of thousand dollars at most. Not to mention, the officers got some very valuable training experience.

 

Perhaps. But it wasn't a bomb. Anybody that spent 5 seconds looking at it would know it wasn't a bomb. The EOD techs most definitely knew it wasn't a bomb. Yet, they decided to further feed the paranoia running rampant through Bean Town and blew it up anyway. Somehow this is providing a service to the community? One phone call to the Roads Dept would have verified, (for any brain dead folks involved), that they did, in fact, have a traffic counting device at that location. Rather than make a simple phone call, they decided to blow it up.

 

Again, I'll say that IED's are made specifically to look like everyday objects. That is why they are so effective.

 

And I'll ask again, were you there? Do you know that they didn't try to call the roads department. I can almost guarantee that somebody in the dispatch center was trying to track down a supervisor or somebody in the know at the roads department. Nobody from Boston PD or the Boston roads department has responded yet to this thread so nobody here knows for certain what happened.

 

I guess it's more fun just to say that the bomb techs are idiots and continue on with irresponsible speculation.

 

Maybe the next time your city has a bomb scare, you can go on down there and lend your expertice. Just walk up and let them know if it's a bomb or not. then when they move way back, you can open it up and root around in it. You may even get lucky the first few times and not get blown up.

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I love the argument that it could have been a bomb. Anything could be a bomb. How do you decide what to blow up?

 

Aye, there's the rub. In my criticism of public officials, I don't propose that their job is easy. But making that decision is part of their job. And blowing up silly things just adds to the hysteria. How they make their decisions and what policies they enact, that's a tough question, and I certainly have sympathy for them in that area.

 

On another note, If you were a terrorist, would you make your bomb look like a bomb? Would you use a small black metal box or pipe shaped object?

 

Of course not. I'd build my bomb inside an old pizza box or something. Or maybe just put it into a public trash can or mail box in a busy place. After it went of, the bomb squads all over the US would have to start blowing up trash cans and mail boxes.

 

edit: on second thought, after all the publicity, maybe a good bomb camo would be a light-brite box advertising Aqua Teen Hunger Force. :)

Edited by headybrew
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Interesting that they chose to detonate that box with vehicles pretty close by. (And by all appearances, people also within 100' or so though you can't say that for absolute certainty by the film.)

 

It would not have taken much of a device to give them a serious wake up call about colateral damage.

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And, in previous instances they promised to pursue charges against the hider - are they suing their Streets Department as well?

That's my rub in this whole nonsensical farce: I don't really care too much if they just choose to blow up stuff that any "slow" third grader could identify as an ordinary harmless object; it is the fact that they consistently threaten the OWNER of the harmless property that they CHOSE to blow up for a half a million dollars that they knowingly and negligently WASTED to get their kicks watching the OWNER's property go bang.

 

The owner of the lite-brites and the highway department should be SUING the bomb squad!

 

I blame the so-called 'transportation officials' who couldn't squeeze enough brain cells together to adequately camo their counters. If you hide those things better, they won't get blown up.

:laughing::)

 

When the sheriff, or other politicians start complaining. Remember that when they blame real life for wasting their time it's entirly because that's how they set up the rules. Not the street department, and not geocachers.

 

You're wrong. The Sheriff and/or politicians didn't set up the rules. Overly letigious individuals who are trying to strike it rich against the government set up the rules. Judges who want to legislate from the bench set up the rules. Risk management and insurance companies set up the rules.

 

When a local government pays out millions of dollars because they didn't respond properly to a call, they develop a policy that responds to all policies the same way. If they blow up a cache, then they blow up a cache...or a traffic counter, or whatever.

 

Nobody ever got sued and ended up paying punitive damages out of their own pocket for over-responding to a situation. And until you have spent time going through a lawsuit where you are being accused of not providing a consistent level of service, you have no idea what it is like.

 

If that would have been a bomb and people would have been hurt or killed, people would now be screaming that the police should have noticed it and should have done something. Anybody that was injured would be suing the city of Boston, along with the families of anybody that died.

 

Whatever happened to all the money that was spent on investigational machinery? X-Ray machines, explosives sniffers, robotic analyzers of various nature, etc?

 

I'm no expert, far from it, but aren't they supposed to have literally millions of dollars of 'stuff' and training to identify what is and what isn't a threat?

 

If after all that they have spent on equipment and training they can't identify a traffic counter, the taxpayers of Boston should demand their money back!

 

Responding to a call of a suspicious package is one thing. Not using the equipment you have to determine if it's indeed a threat is quite another.

 

Since x-ray machines only "see" solid objects, and not mushy stuff like c-4, semtex, or any other number of homemade explosives, they don't do much good in a situation like this. What the bomb techs most likely saw was a bunch of wires and stuff, and instead of sending a guy over to open it and possibly loose a human life, they did the safest thing and just blew it up.

 

People like to blame law enforcement for over-reacting, but there is a reason for it. My department has a 19 page policy on pursuits. Why? Because about 12 years ago, and officer chased a guy and it resulted in the death of 4 teenagers. The city payed out millions of dollars and after that a policy was created that spelled out exactly what the reason was for a valid chase. The same is true for our 16 page OWI policy and our 32 page domestic violence policy.

 

It's cheaper and safer to just blow up a suspicious item than it is to attempt to get inside of it and see what it actually is.

So, what you are saying that because their is a RISK of paying out millions if you make a mistake and someone gets hurt, it is better to ROUTINELY spend millions to avoid the risk? (And then try to collect from an innocent party for money that was spent for no other reason than the fear of one's own shadow)

 

I do appreciate that this is a no-win situation, but being in a no-win situation does not exempt one from using common sense.

 

Ref bold: Woulda, coulda, shoulda... put them in one hand and a pile of doggie dunit in the other and tell me which hand has the most in it? If you're aunt had balls, she'd be your uncle! We gotta deal with REALITY, not "what if's." These things WERE NOT bombs. They KNEW they WERE NOT bombs. So they blow them up for whatever reason, "kicks", "CYA", "PR", "paranoia", WHATEVER, and then have the unmitigated audacity to charge the owners of the harmless property that they WANTONLY destroyed.

 

Funny thing, I bet if I blew up somebody's property that they had left, harmlessly, in a public place, the cops would want to charge me with vandalism... at a minimum.

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....unless somebody here is on the Boston PD bomb squad, and knows exactly what went on, then you are being irresponsible in questioning their intelligence, dedication, and professionalism...

 

The orginal point of my post was that things happen. Those in authority and who make the rules should leave it at that. Nobody is going to prosecute the street department. Yet they caused just as big a problem as some random cacher where they did threaten prosecution.

 

By the way, since you took the time to point out (and which as been pointed out to me) they do try to make bombs not be noticed. If the location was right replacing a traffic counter with a bomb is something that could happen. A list of traffic counters would not help any more than a list of caches. Once reported protocal will take over. That's how it works. I don't have a problem with that. Only when they threaten Joe Citizen for the misdeeds of others who do place bombs.

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The thing is, it wasn't a bomb. In fact, it didn't look like a bomb. What it appeared to be was the mundane object which, in fact, it was.

The "fact" is...that a geocacher,(above everyone) should realize that things are not necessarily what they seem or appear to be. Just what, my friend, does a bomb look like? And as my police officer colleague so well pointed out, because of the accusations and immediate blame assigning, standard proceedures are initiated to...#1, protect....and #2, alieve pressure from fortune seeking finger pointers that win enormous settlements from liberal judges (which is another reason your insurance premiums are so high). NOW...if I may express my disillusionment with detonating an unknown device. Bombs are not the only threat we face in todays struggle with radical islamic terrorists. What if the canister were filled with Anthrax powder, or any number of nerve agents (CZ, serin gas, etc). And a seemingly innocent looking Light Bright set can be fitted for enormous destruction capabilities. Truely, the problem here (as far as geocaching goes) is not "what" is placed, but "where" it is placed, IMHO. And I think any cache as large as an ammo box should be plainly labeled as a geocache. At leaast they can get an idea of what lies within, before they blow it up. :) I hope I don't come off as an angry right winger, but I do get a bit riled with people that don't have a clue. Rather than accusing or criticizing our police and our national security measures, we might exercise that phrase I see in almost every thread...."use a little common sense."

duce031.jpg

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The thing is, it wasn't a bomb. In fact, it didn't look like a bomb. What it appeared to be was the mundane object which, in fact, it was.

The "fact" is...that a geocacher,(above everyone) should realize that things are not necessarily what they seem or appear to be. Just what, my friend, does a bomb look like? And as my police officer colleague so well pointed out, because of the accusations and immediate blame assigning, standard proceedures are initiated to...#1, protect....and #2, alieve pressure from fortune seeking finger pointers that win enormous settlements from liberal judges (which is another reason your insurance premiums are so high). NOW...if I may express my disillusionment with detonating an unknown device. Bombs are not the only threat we face in todays struggle with radical islamic terrorists. What if the canister were filled with Anthrax powder, or any number of nerve agents (CZ, serin gas, etc). And a seemingly innocent looking Light Bright set can be fitted for enormous destruction capabilities. Truely, the problem here (as far as geocaching goes) is not "what" is placed, but "where" it is placed, IMHO. And I think any cache as large as an ammo box should be plainly labeled as a geocache. At leaast they can get an idea of what lies within, before they blow it up. :) I hope I don't come off as an angry right winger, but I do get a bit riled with people that don't have a clue. Rather than accusing or criticizing our police and our national security measures, we might exercise that phrase I see in almost every thread...."use a little common sense."

duce031.jpg

 

Yah, what he said.

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I would rather see every suspicious container ever identified get blown to bits than see one human wounded or killed. I am totally risk-averse in this kind of thing. There isn't a container out there worth one man's hand.

 

However, those two ends are extremes.

 

The middle ground is proper identification and reaction. Risk evaluation.

 

I was not there, don't know beans about how to identify inert from explosive, but I do believe that this squad has people and equipment who can do so.

 

They didn't. Perhaps they couldn't. Perhaps blowing things up is job security for the EOD tech. I don't know.

 

I do know that the bad guys watch and learn from this kind of thing.

 

Handling explosives is dangerous. I certainly don't want to do it. So they pack an ammo box with chemicals, homebrew biologicals, poisons, radioactive medical waste, whatever is handy, set it out in plain sight and let the bomb squad provide the explosives! :laughing:

 

They blow it up, spread icky stuff all over the place... mission accomplished and much safer for the bad guy!

 

You gotta know it's going to occur to someone. :)

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What if the canister were filled with Anthrax powder, or any number of nerve agents (CZ, serin gas, etc). And a seemingly innocent looking Light Bright set can be fitted for enormous destruction capabilities.

 

:):P:laughing:

 

You can't be serious.

The relevant fact is that literally *anything* could be a bomb. Those terrorists would be sitting there laughing their turbins off at us silly americans for blowing up everything in site for them so they don't have to.

 

What kind of an idiot would waste perfectly good antrax :laughing: by putting it into a box and chaining it to a street sign. I'm sure they'd have better ways of distributing it.

 

Just because a non-trained overly-panicked citizen called reported an object as suspicious, doesn't make it suspicious. Some things are likely to be bombs, and some are not. It's the bomb squad and others that we have given the responsibility of realizing that.

 

Cars for example, make excellent bomb containers. What should they blow up next? Fords or Toyotas?

 

OH MY GOD! HE'S DOUBLE PARKED! CALL HOMELAND SECURITY!!!

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...And a seemingly innocent looking Light Bright set can be fitted for enormous destruction capabilities. Truely, the problem here (as far as geocaching goes) is not "what" is placed, but "where" it is placed, IMHO. And I think any cache as large as...

Okay, okay, I have gotta ask! In all my born days, I have never heard of a "Light Bright set". So, please tell me: what is a "Light Bright set", or even a "Light Bright", for that matter?

 

Thanks!

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...And a seemingly innocent looking Light Bright set can be fitted for enormous destruction capabilities. Truely, the problem here (as far as geocaching goes) is not "what" is placed, but "where" it is placed, IMHO. And I think any cache as large as...

Okay, okay, I have gotta ask! In all my born days, I have never heard of a "Light Bright set". So, please tell me: what is a "Light Bright set", or even a "Light Bright", for that matter?

 

Thanks!

Here's the modern incarnation.

Lite Brite is high in the pantheon of classic toys, akin to Monopoly, Slinky, and Cootie.

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Personally I am assuming the police followed procedure and contacted everyone they needed to and if there was any "reasonable doubt" they did the right thing.

 

But following some of the logic above as part of the Homeland Security stuff our city set up an emergency responce team made up of people from various departments, including the streets department. All of them carry cell phones or pagers. The police have all of that information so yes all it takes is a phone call. Following the logic that it might be a bomb so lets be safe and blow it up doesn't carry a lot of weight either. Following that logic they would need to start blowing up all the traffic counters, just in case. What about that mailbox on the corner? The half full coke bottle by the bench, might be nitro glycerin. Or that half full trash can? Or all those cars!?!? Car bombs are popular!!! Oh wait a minute, suicide bombers. Lets blow up all the people because they might be suicide bombers!

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... You may even get lucky the first few times and not get blown up.
This part of your post is a perfect illustration on what is wrong with the blind hysteria. I'm reasonably certain that I could blindly open up every package that's reported as a bomb in my city for the foreseeable future and never be at risk. While we are living in a brave new world, danger is still not lurking around every corner.

 

Related to your previous comment about not opening ammo cans in emeny camps, that's good advice. However, we don't live in an enemy camp. In general, every mundane item you see is not a bomb placed to trick you. Think about all the items that are used in war and terror to blow people up. If we were to assume that every one of these were bombs, the authorities would have no time to blow up caches. They would be busy clearing the roads of people and detonating parked cars.

Edited by sbell111
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The "fact" is...that a geocacher,(above everyone) should realize that things are not necessarily what they seem or appear to be. Just what, my friend, does a bomb look like? And as my police officer colleague so well pointed out, because of the accusations and immediate blame assigning, standard proceedures are initiated to...#1, protect....and #2, alieve pressure from fortune seeking finger pointers that win enormous settlements from liberal judges (which is another reason your insurance premiums are so high). NOW...if I may express my disillusionment with detonating an unknown device. Bombs are not the only threat we face in todays struggle with radical islamic terrorists. What if the canister were filled with Anthrax powder, or any number of nerve agents (CZ, serin gas, etc). And a seemingly innocent looking Light Bright set can be fitted for enormous destruction capabilities. Truely, the problem here (as far as geocaching goes) is not "what" is placed, but "where" it is placed, IMHO. And I think any cache as large as an ammo box should be plainly labeled as a geocache. At leaast they can get an idea of what lies within, before they blow it up. :laughing: I hope I don't come off as an angry right winger, but I do get a bit riled with people that don't have a clue. Rather than accusing or criticizing our police and our national security measures, we might exercise that phrase I see in almost every thread...."use a little common sense."

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Why would you think that anyone would label you as an 'angry right winger'? :):laughing:
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I hope I don't come off as an angry right winger, but I do get a bit riled with people that don't have a clue. Rather than accusing or criticizing our police and our national security measures, we might exercise that phrase I see in almost every thread...."use a little common sense."

I don't know about "angry right winger", but I do question your knowledge of history and government!

 

Questioning, accusing, criticising and challenging government and authority lies at the root of this great country of ours.

 

It is not only right and patriotic to make authority accountable, it would be unpatriotic and ultimately disastrous for our nation if we don't!

 

You bet I question our security apparatus, and the increasing awareness of events like the OP make me question it more.

 

I know nothing about EOD, but don't most bomb squads have a containment device or vehicle they put suspect packages in to detonate them? Surely a town as large as Boston has several.

 

Not sure what all this really has to do with geocaching, though, since there are 367352 active caches worldwide and what, less than a hundred I'd guess, that have been destroyed as suspect bombs.

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The thing is, it wasn't a bomb. In fact, it didn't look like a bomb. What it appeared to be was the mundane object which, in fact, it was.

The "fact" is...that a geocacher,(above everyone) should realize that things are not necessarily what they seem or appear to be. Just what, my friend, does a bomb look like? And as my police officer colleague so well pointed out, because of the accusations and immediate blame assigning, standard proceedures are initiated to...#1, protect....and #2, alieve pressure from fortune seeking finger pointers that win enormous settlements from liberal judges (which is another reason your insurance premiums are so high). NOW...if I may express my disillusionment with detonating an unknown device. Bombs are not the only threat we face in todays struggle with radical islamic terrorists. What if the canister were filled with Anthrax powder, or any number of nerve agents (CZ, serin gas, etc). And a seemingly innocent looking Light Bright set can be fitted for enormous destruction capabilities. Truely, the problem here (as far as geocaching goes) is not "what" is placed, but "where" it is placed, IMHO. And I think any cache as large as an ammo box should be plainly labeled as a geocache. At leaast they can get an idea of what lies within, before they blow it up. :) I hope I don't come off as an angry right winger, but I do get a bit riled with people that don't have a clue. Rather than accusing or criticizing our police and our national security measures, we might exercise that phrase I see in almost every thread...."use a little common sense."

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Then when the bomb squad blows it in the street all of it is spread around town and the terrorists "win".

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Obviously I'm hardly an expert in anti-terrorism techniques, but I have to question the wisdom of this "blow it up" approach to dealing with suspicious packages.

 

Someone reports a suspicious box. The bomb squad shows up, attaches some small charges to it, and detonates. What if the box really is a terrorist device, and inside it has a couple of pounds of shock sensitive high explosives? The nice little controlled bang from the bomb squad is suddenly a very serious explosion.

 

Or worse, instead of being loaded with explosives, it has several bottles of some nasty virus in aerosol form. The bomb squad does their thing, and suddenly these safely contained germs are efficiently distributed all over the neighborhood.

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Obviously I'm hardly an expert in anti-terrorism techniques, but I have to question the wisdom of this "blow it up" approach to dealing with suspicious packages.

 

Someone reports a suspicious box. The bomb squad shows up, attaches some small charges to it, and detonates. What if the box really is a terrorist device, and inside it has a couple of pounds of shock sensitive high explosives? The nice little controlled bang from the bomb squad is suddenly a very serious explosion.

 

Or worse, instead of being loaded with explosives, it has several bottles of some nasty virus in aerosol form. The bomb squad does their thing, and suddenly these safely contained germs are efficiently distributed all over the neighborhood.

I didn't watch the video because I can't at work, but most of the time a bomb squad 'blows something up', they actually are just using a water cannon or other device to 'disrupt' the item so it won't explode.

Edited by sbell111
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I didn't watch the video because I can't at work, but most of the time a bomb squad 'blows something up', they actually are just using a water cannon or other device to 'disrupt' the item so it won't explode.

 

In this case it appeared to be a small charge of some sort. Very abrupt destruction, nice accompanying 'bang' noise. Enough to make any red-blooded male jealous :)

 

But even a water canon could trigger a sensitive explosive device. I dunno, I have to kind of agree with the theory that they're blowing junk up partly because it's just plain old fun.

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Related to your previous comment about not opening ammo cans in emeny camps, that's good advice. However, we don't live in an enemy camp. In general, every mundane item you see is not a bomb placed to trick you. Think about all the items that are used in war and terror to blow people up. If we were to assume that every one of these were bombs, the authorities would have no time to blow up caches. They would be busy clearing the roads of people and detonating parked cars.

 

In case you have forgotten, Islamic Jihadists have declared war on the U.S. and have vowed to carry out acts of terror on our own soil.

 

Dearborn, MI a city about 15 miles from where I sit right now, has the largest population of middle easterns, outside of the middle east. There are some very vocal Anti-American folks that live there.

 

The people that have carried out the attacks on 9/11 and the first World Trade Center bombing didn't just get off of a plane and decide to blow some stuff up. They were here for a while. During the Columbine shooting, the shooters placed IED's that were supposed to injure or kill first responders. Fortunatly, they didn't go off.

 

We may not be in the enemies camp, but they are definitly in ours.

 

If I were to come across some type of box that I couldn't see into, and it wasn't supposed to be there, you can bet that I wouldn't walk up and touch it.

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Obviously I'm hardly an expert in anti-terrorism techniques, but I have to question the wisdom of this "blow it up" approach to dealing with suspicious packages.

 

Someone reports a suspicious box. The bomb squad shows up, attaches some small charges to it, and detonates. What if the box really is a terrorist device, and inside it has a couple of pounds of shock sensitive high explosives? The nice little controlled bang from the bomb squad is suddenly a very serious explosion.

 

Or worse, instead of being loaded with explosives, it has several bottles of some nasty virus in aerosol form. The bomb squad does their thing, and suddenly these safely contained germs are efficiently distributed all over the neighborhood.

 

I'm not an expert, but I've watched some on TV and I don't think it's as simple as that. They would emply screening tools to rule out various things to prevent exactly the kinds of things you mention.

 

If you xray a traffic counter you are going to see wires, circuit boards, chips and batteries. I would not be suprised if they had certain chemical tests to help determin biological agents, and certain types of explosives.

 

My brother in law has been stopped at the airport for having gunpowder residue on him and questioned about it. We had gone shooting the day before.

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Related to your previous comment about not opening ammo cans in emeny camps, that's good advice. However, we don't live in an enemy camp. In general, every mundane item you see is not a bomb placed to trick you. Think about all the items that are used in war and terror to blow people up. If we were to assume that every one of these were bombs, the authorities would have no time to blow up caches. They would be busy clearing the roads of people and detonating parked cars.
In case you have forgotten, Islamic Jihadists have declared war on the U.S. and have vowed to carry out acts of terror on our own soil.

 

Dearborn, MI a city about 15 miles from where I sit right now, has the largest population of middle easterns, outside of the middle east. There are some very vocal Anti-American folks that live there.

 

The people that have carried out the attacks on 9/11 and the first World Trade Center bombing didn't just get off of a plane and decide to blow some stuff up. They were here for a while. During the Columbine shooting, the shooters placed IED's that were supposed to injure or kill first responders. Fortunatly, they didn't go off.

 

We may not be in the enemies camp, but they are definitly in ours.

 

If I were to come across some type of box that I couldn't see into, and it wasn't supposed to be there, you can bet that I wouldn't walk up and touch it.

Have you noticed that you keep singling out these dangerous 'islamic jihadists' but your example (and most terrorism committed within the US) is of the home grown variety. I'm not absolutely sure what that means, but I think I know. :)
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Related to your previous comment about not opening ammo cans in emeny camps, that's good advice. However, we don't live in an enemy camp. In general, every mundane item you see is not a bomb placed to trick you. Think about all the items that are used in war and terror to blow people up. If we were to assume that every one of these were bombs, the authorities would have no time to blow up caches. They would be busy clearing the roads of people and detonating parked cars.
In case you have forgotten, Islamic Jihadists have declared war on the U.S. and have vowed to carry out acts of terror on our own soil.

 

Dearborn, MI a city about 15 miles from where I sit right now, has the largest population of middle easterns, outside of the middle east. There are some very vocal Anti-American folks that live there.

 

The people that have carried out the attacks on 9/11 and the first World Trade Center bombing didn't just get off of a plane and decide to blow some stuff up. They were here for a while. During the Columbine shooting, the shooters placed IED's that were supposed to injure or kill first responders. Fortunatly, they didn't go off.

 

We may not be in the enemies camp, but they are definitly in ours.

 

If I were to come across some type of box that I couldn't see into, and it wasn't supposed to be there, you can bet that I wouldn't walk up and touch it.

Have you noticed that you keep singling out these dangerous 'islamic jihadists' but your example (and most terrorism committed within the US) is of the home grown variety. I'm not absolutely sure what that means, but I think I know. :rolleyes:

Thank you sbell.

I'm as Red White and Blue as they come. My family was here before there was an America. A member of my family has fought in every conflict/war since the French Indian war. I'm a decorated veteran myself. Some of you know that. I'm not saying this to brag, but just so you'll know where I'm coming from when I say this.

 

The vast majority of people in this country think the current issue is one of race. It's not. It's not even one of religion as many folks would argue. It goes a lot deeper and crosses a lot more lines than that. Don't confuse they face of the enemy with the motive of the enemy. I'm blond hair and blued eyeed, but that doesn't make me a NAZI.

The Islamic people are some of the best people I've ever met as a group. They are warm hearted and open minded as a group. It's the radical in any group that are the danger. Even in OUR society. Don't be so quick to judge.

 

Also the enemy has always and will always be in our camp. For, most of the time, he is us.

 

Name any incident in all of US history where a non-US citizen attacked anything or anyone in the US except the Poncho Villa raids and 911 that was not conducted by uniformed combatants in a time of war. Then think about how many bombings, arson, and other terror attacks that have occured in our land even in just the last 2 decades. Now tell me who the enemy is. Guess what, he looks just like you.

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I have been closely studying terrorism since 1992. I'm not trying to sound like a know-it-all, but I have read dozens of books on the subject and taken numerous classes about it, some even from accredited universities. I have interviewed people who are on the front lines in the battle against terrorism, and I have read dozens of interviews from actual terrorists, both foreign and domestic.

 

Believe me when I say that I know a lot about terrorism, the reasons for it, and the responses to it.

 

I used Islamic Jihadists(noticed that I did not say Muslims...I know the difference and I have nothing but respect for the people who follow Muhammads peaceful teachings) because that is the current "face" that is being put on terrorism. If we were having this conversation prior to September 11, 2001, I would have used militia organizations(mainly because before 9/11 when I said the name Osama bin Laden and Al Quaeda people stared at me like I was a monkey doing a card trick). Also, when I mention groups like Earth First, Animal Liberation Front, Green Peace, and other Eco-terrorist groups, people scream at the tops of their lungs that these are not terrorist organizations and they can't be held responsible for what there members do. I could go on all day about groups that SHOULD be considered terrorist but aren't, but that would stir up a giant political pot.

 

Sbell111, I don't appreciate your inference that I am a racist. I judge people by their actions and not by their religion, race, color, or nationality. You seem very quick to jump to that conclusion, what does that say about you.

 

Yes, the enemy pitched his tent in our backyard long ago. In fact, some of my very relatives were terrorists who harrased the British back when we were colonies of England. But the biggest difference is that they fought AGAINST oppresion instead of FOR it.

 

In the end, if you don't like the way that your police department handles a certain situation, then quit hiding behind a screen name on the internet and do something about it. Run for city council, run for the police commision, or the office of sheriff. Put your hand in the political arena and change the way that your city does things. Go to work for the campaign of a candidate that you support. Don't try to dodge jury duty.

 

Or at the very least, VOTE. Not even half of the people in this country exercise their right to vote, Almost every state has a web site that will give you updates on what bills are being introduced into the state legislature. I get updates all the time. I also exercise my voice. My state and national reps are probably sick of hearing from me, because I email them all the time. I have even stopped into their offices on occasion.

 

Since this thread has the same effect as self gratification, I'm done with it.

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... Sbell111, I don't appreciate your inference that I am a racist. I judge people by their actions and not by their religion, race, color, or nationality. You seem very quick to jump to that conclusion, what does that say about you. ...
Actually, I was thinking 'angry right-wing tool', if you must know. I never suggested that you were a racist.
Since this thread has the same effect as self gratification, I'm done with it.
Not for me and, I suspect, not for most of us. Wash your hands when you're done. Edited by sbell111
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