UK-Wide Multi-cache

[+Birdman-of-liskatraz]

I'd struggle with the centre of Cornwall as I'm almost in Devon.. I can get it down the County a bit... but not near the County Town...

[+Bambography]

Can I have your responses to the following "Draft Guidelines" Version-1 (12/3/07)

 

1. Traditional style caches ONLY

Maybe allow simple one-stage off sets as this could allow placers to show the cachers an interesting feature of the county where a cache cannot feasibly be placed

2. One cache only per county

3. Regional groups of caches to be created, e.g England - Southwest, West, North, East etc. These treated as separate sub-quests

These will need to be selected fairly soon to allow for the overall code system to be in place. Also I think that the regional caches are only local milestones. I think if someone has found all of the county caches they be able to claim the final cache details. It could add months/years for some caches if they had to go to the other end of a county (or different country) to get the last regional before finishing.

4. Log all caches to gain access to co-ordinates of Final, Regional or National Cache (as appropriate)

With this do we mean on GC.com AND bigquest.co.uk?

5. Difficulty no more than 2.5/2.5

Fair enough. Also might be worth considering a Handicache policy.

6. Common Naming Structure e.g BIG Quest - West Yorkshire

7. Use standard layout on Geocaching.com listings site via centrally supplied HTML

8. Each cache to contain unique code number, cacher to collect them all for region or overall

Do people want to log these on the BIGQuest website to help manage the progress as they go? This would be needed if the progress maps for your profile are to be created.

9. Cache owner to monitor logs of his cache to prevent spoilers disclosing code number

Should BIGQuest.co.uk email the cache owner when a log is made on thier cache, or just when someone claims the regional/final cache details?

10. Cache owner to be prepared to maintain cache in long-term or be prepared to allow adoption

11. Each cache to be placed fairly centrally within area of the county (to avoid boundary disputes)

12. Cache to be placed in a location that is environmentally representative of the county or region, whilst still attempting to satisfy (11)

13. Final, Country and Regional Caches to be located reasonably close to centre of the area, where possible, or close to a location which is significant to the area.

Who is going to Place, Maintain & manage these? Their locations need to remain secure, and obviously whoever placed them cannot work towards that region..?

 

Over to you folks.....

 

Try to be gentle with me.

[+scottpa100]

 

Instead, why not stipulate that each cache should be possible to complete in under x number of minutes (but without encouraging a multitude of drivebys).

 

I think this is important as I think there is an amountof balance to strike. If you were to complete the entire BIG Quest cache, then you're obviously a person who likes a challenge (and has time, money... ) but the thought of say going around half of the counties to get a small tupperware box stuffed in a nameless hedge somewhere... there is no point of that! Surely each county / regional / whatever should be trying to be near something unique to that area that you wouldn't get elsewhere? Otherwise what's the point of that journey?

[+TMM-Sarah]

With reference to having the caches in the centre of the county....surely a nice location is a nice location no matter where in the county it is!!

 

PLUS...I have trouble working out where Somerset is in relation to the rest of the country...let alone trying to locate its centre!

 

Sarah

[+Sensei TSKC]

Let's apply the KISS principle to avoid unnecessary complications.

[+CrazyL200]

 

13. Final, Country and Regional Caches to be located reasonably close to centre of the area, where possible, or close to a location which is significant to the area.

Who is going to Place, Maintain & manage these? Their locations need to remain secure, and obviously whoever placed them cannot work towards that region..?

 

 

We log our own county/regional/national caches as a "Perk of the job". Otherwise this will exclude a lot of cachers from completing the series.

 

The "chosen" cachers for the regional/national caches and the final BIG Quest cache could be chosen by nomination (balot/vote - whatever) by those in the group below.

i.e. county cachers choose the regional cache placers, regional cache placers, choose the national cache placer, national cache placers choose the final placer (unless HH is happy with placing it on the I.O.M. ?? as previously suggested ??).

Choosing the cachers for each group could also be done by pulling volunteers names from a hat ??

[Deceangi]

Ok the big gobbed Reviewer putting his boot in again

 

To avoid delays for the cache placers, and major headaches for Eckington, Lactodorum and my self . All caches to be placed within approximately 50 miles/88km of the placers home coordinates, so we don't have to be chasing up about maintenance plans for the caches. Especially as the higher levels will not be able to be published until all those required to obtain the coordinates in the tier bellow are published.

 

Removal of Boot

Edited March 13, 2007 by Deceangi

[Red Squadron]

I am glad the suggestion has been made that there should be stages or levels of achievement as I too feel that a very limited number of us will be able to cover the whole country/countries and might be put off starting at all.

I don't know how it might be done but did wonder if there was any possibility of Alan linking the statistics into COTM?

 

I used to be a member of a group on Ham Radio that had as its goal the collection (by way of radio communication) of all the Grid references in the UK,Scotland, all the islands around the UK, Wales and NI. When we had completed, lets say, 100 of these areas we had an Award sent to us with a sticker that had 100 on it and WAB on them (that stands for Worked All Britain) When we had completed 200 we then had the 200 award sticker. This continued until we had filled in all the areas in Britain. We then had all the areas on the award covered with the WAB stickers. I have still got some of my old Awards and i dont mind sharing them with someone who wants to see them for reference. Using a method such as this would give those who are not able to do the whole of the UK some sort of recognition for what they are able to do. What do the PTB think ? How do i post a picture of the Awards so you can see what i am talking about ?

[+Sensei TSKC]

Ok the big gobbed Reviewer putting his boot in again

 

All caches to be placed within approximately 50 miles/88km of the placers home coordinates, so we don't have to be chasing up about maintenance plans for the caches.

More like the KISS principle in work.

 

The draft guidelines suggested, regarding the placing of the County caches, would cause me some problems. My intention from the outset was not to go further than my 25 mile limit of setting caches for the above stated reason. Obviously, we all have exceptions, and in my case I have a cache in London BUT I do go there 5 times a week! Maintenance, therefore, is not a problem.

 

I think the Reviewers are being extremely generous with their limit but I suppose in some of the Counties/Regions, this limit is reasonable.

[+Pharisee]

We log our own county/regional/national caches as a "Perk of the job". Otherwise this will exclude a lot of cachers from completing the series.

 

There would be no need to 'log' your own cache.... You'd know the 'code number' or whatever information it contained anyway.

[+CrazyL200]

We log our own county/regional/national caches as a "Perk of the job". Otherwise this will exclude a lot of cachers from completing the series.

 

There would be no need to 'log' your own cache.... You'd know the 'code number' or whatever information it contained anyway.

 

Wouldn't it, perhaps, be an exception to the norm for this series to log your own cache just for "completeness".

[+Haggis Hunter]

10. Cache owner to be prepared to maintain cache in long-term or be prepared to allow adoption

We would have to see if we could arrange some sort of system for a forced adoption if the requirement came about?

How about some sort of disclaimer on the cache page saying that if the cache was about to be archived by a reviewer due to not being able to get in touch, then a forced adoption would be allowed without any further permission??

 

Can I have your responses to the following "Draft Guidelines" Version-1 (12/3/07)

 

Can I have your responses to the following "Draft Guidelines" Version-1 (12/3/07)

 

1. Traditional style caches ONLY

I agree. It's going to be hard enough to complete even with regular caches

 

2. One cache only per county

Ageed, due to the number of caches involved with just one in each county

 

6. Common Naming Structure e.g BIG Quest - West Yorkshire

Sounds good to me. then people know what to look for when searching for the series.

 

11. Each cache to be placed fairly centrally within area of the county (to avoid boundary disputes)

Is it not more important to have caches local to the individual that has to maintain it. So long as it's within the county it's supposed to be then why does it have to be central?

I agree with the above totally.

 

1. Traditional style caches ONLY

Not going to allow a simple one stage off set then?

 

Allowing Trads only would be a mistake, there's plenty of worthwhile locations to take people to which can't hold a cache due to various reasons. That's where simple offset multis come into play.

 

Instead, why not stipulate that each cache should be possible to complete in under x number of minutes (but without encouraging a multitude of drivebys).

How can you enforce a time limit on finding a cache. Some people find easy caches straight away others end up logging DNF's when they are there all along.

Keep it to trads, let's face it a county should have enough interesting places for one extra traditional cache to be placed? there is nothing stopping someone from placing a multi in that unique place separately. Some of the best places in counties have already got a cache placed within it, so in my mind having anything more complicated than a traditional just makes the quest a lot more difficult to complete.

 

We log our own county/regional/national caches as a "Perk of the job". Otherwise this will exclude a lot of cachers from completing the series.

 

There would be no need to 'log' your own cache.... You'd know the 'code number' or whatever information it contained anyway.

 

Wouldn't it, perhaps, be an exception to the norm for this series to log your own cache just for "completeness".

This is really something that is up to the cache owner. I won't be logging my own one, as Pharisee has said I would already know the code that was inside. It would also muck up my stats, which to me are important.

 

So in this instance you can play it how you want to, it really doesn't make much difference to anyone else.

[+macroderma]

Can I have your responses to the following "Draft Guidelines" Version-1 (12/3/07)

I agree with your draft rules with the following comments as my 2 pennorth!

1. Traditional style caches ONLY

Like others I think you will need to allow simple offsets. The time limit seems sensible. How about no micros as a rule? I have placed many micros but for a project like this I think there should be a 'prize' of at least a small container. That of course is another argument for offsets, as there will be sites where small/regular caches are impossible

 

2. One cache only per county

3. Regional groups of caches to be created, e.g England - Southwest, West, North, East etc. These treated as separate sub-quests

I think this is important as it will encourage participation without the enormity of the whole series putting people off. Perhaps the placers of the county caches could be put into a hat for the right to place the regional bonus cache? You could use the govt offices of the regions to define the regions for England. Presumably we could use provinces in Ireland? I assume there are regions defined in the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. How would the honour of placing the final UK one be allocated?

 

4. Log all caches to gain access to co-ordinates of Final, Regional or National Cache (as appropriate)

5. Difficulty no more than 2.5/2.5

I agree there should be a handicache rating too. 2.5./2.5 means that only the hale and hearty could complete the series. Mind you, only the able bodied will probably want to attempt it!

 

6. Common Naming Structure e.g BIG Quest - West Yorkshire

7. Use standard layout on Geocaching.com listings site via centrally supplied HTML

8. Each cache to contain unique code number, cacher to collect them all for region or overall

9. Cache owner to monitor logs of his cache to prevent spoilers disclosing code number

10. Cache owner to be prepared to maintain cache in long-term or be prepared to allow adoption

11. Each cache to be placed fairly centrally within area of the county (to avoid boundary disputes)

 

I think it is unlikely that cachers will wish to place caches close to boundaries but it may be inevitable. Moving around some of these areas could be tricky - for example central locations in Welsh or Scots counties could mean very lengthy hikes away from roads/tracks, quickly breaching the 2.5/2.5 rule

 

12. Cache to be placed in a location that is environmentally representative of the county or region, whilst still attempting to satisfy (11)

 

Open to interpretation. For example, Gloucestershire has hills and flat bits, canals and rivers but some dry areas, forests and open land, roman roads and motorway etc. One small city with some smaller towns.

 

13. Final, Country and Regional Caches to be located reasonably close to centre of the area, where possible, or close to a location which is significant to the area.

 

Back to my question about allocation to a cacher - if you make it reginally/nationally central that automatically decides the cache-placer (it is the one in whose county that is)

 

Over to you folks.....

 

Try to be gentle with me.

 

I think you are doing a great job - this is an enormous project

[+Bambography]

We log our own county/regional/national caches as a "Perk of the job". Otherwise this will exclude a lot of cachers from completing the series.

 

There would be no need to 'log' your own cache.... You'd know the 'code number' or whatever information it contained anyway.

 

Wouldn't it, perhaps, be an exception to the norm for this series to log your own cache just for "completeness".

 

If we get permission to use the BigQuest website to control the series you'd have to log your own cache for they system to recognise you'd finished. I could set the owned caches to completed by default though, this would save everyone logging them themselves.

[+wizard1974uk]

If you do get permission for the website, my offer to host the site is still open and can give access to someone to maintain it.

[+Haggis Hunter]

I could set the owned caches to completed by default though, this would save everyone logging them themselves.

If that is possible I would like that to happen, that way people like myself who like their stats to be correct wouldn't need to log their own caches.

[+Boneychest & Catsuey]

1. Traditional style caches ONLY

Or simple offset. Pleeeease no micro's

 

2. One cache only per county

3. Regional groups of caches to be created, e.g England - Southwest, West, North, East etc. These treated as separate sub-quests

4. Log all caches to gain access to co-ordinates of Final, Regional or National Cache (as appropriate)

5. Difficulty no more than 2.5/2.5

6. Common Naming Structure e.g BIG Quest - West Yorkshire

7. Use standard layout on Geocaching.com listings site via centrally supplied HTML

8. Each cache to contain unique code number, cacher to collect them all for region or overall

9. Cache owner to monitor logs of his cache to prevent spoilers disclosing code number

10. Cache owner to be prepared to maintain cache in long-term or be prepared to allow adoption

11. Each cache to be placed fairly centrally within area of the county (to avoid boundary disputes)

Why? If we have to travel from Cornwall to Shetland, does it really matter whether it is placed centrally in any particular county?

 

12. Cache to be placed in a location that is environmentally representative of the county or region, whilst still attempting to satisfy (11)

Again, why? This should be up to the cache placer and (ideally) follow normal placement etiquette - put it somewhere interesting. I have somewhere in mind that is spectacular if you visit at the right time but is little known, even to Cambridgeshire residents; there's no point placing it in front of Kings College chapel because you can go there anytime.

 

13. Final, Country and Regional Caches to be located reasonably close to centre of the area, where possible, or close to a location which is significant to the area.

 

Over to you folks.....

 

Try to be gentle with me.

 

Other than the comments above, I agree... Great job so far, OldGimmer, well done!

 

Boneychest

Edited March 13, 2007 by Boneychest & Catsuey

[+Bambography]

If you do get permission for the website, my offer to host the site is still open and can give access to someone to maintain it.

 

Thanks for the offer. Could you either PM or email be a few deatils of what services there are on this server, ie PHP/MySQL etc? We'll bear it in mind however we are considering having server space totally seperate from anyone elses site (including my own) so that it future proofs the site if people leave the project/geocaching or move thier webspace. I have somewhere in mind that is reliable and inexpensive. To start with i'm happy taking the cost of this server space depending on if we need more bandwidth in the future.

I'm currently discussing with OldGimmer regarding this and we'll let you all know what happens.

[+purple_pineapple]

All looking good so far. I will say that, with regards to cache type, I was planning simple off-set, so that I can place the final cache near to a road for ease of maintenance. Its probably a 45 minute drive for me to get to a probable cache location in Kent, and it isn't somewhere I go routinely, so I don;t really fancy the idea of a lonish walk afterwards - I want VERY easy maintenance! To do this, I was hoping to put the first stage at a very nice view, and then final as a 'drive-by' ish... I could easily arrange it so that the time taken would be identical either way, by having the final near to the likely parking space...

 

Other than this, its all good!

[+CrazyL200]

I could set the owned caches to completed by default though, this would save everyone logging them themselves.

If that is possible I would like that to happen, that way people like myself who like their stats to be correct wouldn't need to log their own caches.

 

I'd agree with the default "found" on the BIG Quest website, again, to keep stats straight.

[+PopUpPirate]

Can I have your responses to the following "Draft Guidelines" Version-1 (12/3/07)

I agree with your draft rules with the following comments as my 2 pennorth!

1. Traditional style caches ONLY

No micros, no drivebys

 

2. One cache only per county

 

3. Regional groups of caches to be created, e.g England - Southwest, West, North, East etc. These treated as separate sub-quests

DEFFO

 

4. Log all caches to gain access to co-ordinates of Final, Regional or National Cache (as appropriate)

 

5. Difficulty no more than 2.5/2.5

 

6. Common Naming Structure e.g BIG Quest - West Yorkshire

 

7. Use standard layout on Geocaching.com listings site via centrally supplied HTML

DEFFO - can help with this if ye like

 

8. Each cache to contain unique code number, cacher to collect them all for region or overall

 

9. Cache owner to monitor logs of his cache to prevent spoilers disclosing code number

 

10. Cache owner to be prepared to maintain cache in long-term or be prepared to allow adoption

 

11. Each cache to be placed fairly centrally within area of the county (to avoid boundary disputes)

 

If possible, but..... if a better area is available near a county border then use it

 

12. Cache to be placed in a location that is environmentally representative of the county or region, whilst still attempting to satisfy (11)

 

13. Final, Country and Regional Caches to be located reasonably close to centre of the area, where possible, or close to a location which is significant to the area.

Over to you folks.....

 

Try to be gentle with me.

 

ANY WAY OF MAKING IT CHEAT-PROOF?

[+OldGimmer]

Since posting the Possible Guidelines Draft 1 in Post 245 on the Discussion Thread I have sat back, watched and read the comments.

 

Thanks for all the well thought-out and well-presented comments, some I have used below.

 

From these my current thoughts are. My apologies in advance for its length.

 

1 Traditional style caches ONLY

 

This seems to be split fairly equally between Trad only and Single Offset as well. But no Micro/Nanos.

 

One comment I saw seems appropriate.

 

“Keep it to trads, let's face it a county should have enough interesting places for one extra traditional cache to be placed? there is nothing stopping someone from placing a multi in that unique place separately. Some of the best places in counties have already got a cache placed within it, so in my mind having anything more complicated than a traditional just makes the quest a lot more difficult to complete.”

If Offsets are to be allowed how then do you define and offset multi? Is it exactly as Groundspeak does ie.

 

“Offset caches are a variation on multi-caches. They are listed as a multi-cache when selecting a cache type. They are not found by simply going to some coordinates and finding a cache there. With the offset cache the published coordinates could be of an existing historical monument, plaque, or even a benchmark that you would like to have your cache hunter visit. At this spot, the hunter looks for numbers or information already appearing on the marker or on some part of the marker or site (geocachers NEVER deface public or private property). The geocacher is then able to manipulate these numbers or information using instructions posted on the cache page to continue the hunt.”

or in some other way.

 

I suspect that some/most are thinking of including the details of the offset within the cache description e.g. “walk 230 yards at a bearing of 134 degrees.”

 

Whatever, I agree that the idea of using an offset where you are wanting to take the cacher to somewhere interesting, but need to have the actual hide some distance away, is fine. But I also think we need to limit how far away the offset hide is. The distance should be clearly seen in the cache instructions, or if the offset is as in Groundspeak’s definition then it should be simple task to work-out the final co-ordinates (No puzzles such as “Now take the cube root of the number found” etc).

 

Several people have mentioned setting a time limit. I rather suspect, but may be wrong, I think they might mean a time estimate. If so, how do you do it? One person (me usually) will need maybe 45 minutes to find a cache that others may find in 5. If you really do mean a limit, who is to enforce it?

 

2. One cache only per county

 

Seems to be generally acceptable

 

3. Regional groups of caches to be created, e.g England - Southwest, West, North, East etc. These treated as separate sub-quests

 

Again generally accepted. I agree that the regions do need defining fairly quickly. I'll try to come with ideas.

 

4. Log all caches to gain access to co-ordinates of Final, Regional or National Cache (as appropriate)

 

Generally accepted

 

5. Difficulty no more than 2.5/2.5

 

Generally accepted. I like the idea of the "HandiCaching" rating. How about adding "Where possible, each cache owner should consider applying a Handcache rating to their cache"

 

6. Common Naming Structure e.g BIG Quest - West Yorkshire

 

Generally accepted

 

7. Use standard layout on Geocaching.com listings site via centrally supplied HTML

 

Generally accepted

 

8. Each cache to contain unique code number, cacher to collect them all for region or overall

 

Generally accepted

 

9. Cache owner to monitor logs of his cache to prevent spoilers disclosing code number

Generally accepted

 

10. Cache owner to be prepared to maintain cache in long-term or be prepared to allow adoption

 

Generally accepted. Perhaps following this scheme suggested. "

 

"We would have to see if we could arrange some sort of system for a forced adoption if the requirement came about?

How about some sort of disclaimer on the cache page saying that if the cache was about to be archived by a reviewer due to not being able to get in touch, then a forced adoption would be allowed without any further permission??"

Is that is legal under the Groundspeak rules?

 

11. Each cache to be placed fairly centrally within area of the county (to avoid boundary disputes).

 

12. Cache to be placed in a location that is environmentally representative of the county or region, whilst still attempting to satisfy (11)

 

13. Final, Country and Regional Caches to be located reasonably close to centre of the area, where possible, or close to a location which is significant to the area.

 

These guidelines seems to have caused the greatest number of comments. My thinking on this was that it would average out distance for people travelling to the cache. For example if a cache is placed close to, say, the nortern boundary of a county then it easy for cachers living to the north to go to it, but is extra distance for those to the south. In addition by placing a cache fairly centrally it then there is no doubt that it is the representative of that county. It is only a guideline that may be considered by the prospective cache placer, the final decision about any cache up to the cache placer but should be, I think, for this particular series, "That is that is in an interesting place, and it is a good representative for its county". Placing it well within the boundaries goes part-way to that.

 

Again quoting a posting

 

"I think this is important as I think there is an amount of balance to strike. If you were to complete the entire BIG Quest cache, then you're obviously a person who likes a challenge (and has time, money... ) but the thought of say going around half of the counties to get a small tupperware box stuffed in a nameless hedge somewhere... there is no point of that! Surely each county / regional / whatever should be trying to be near something unique to that area that you wouldn't get elsewhere? Otherwise what's the point of that journey?"

 

Thanks to those people who I have quoted, and to everyone for their comments up to now. Keep them coming.

 

By the way, has anyone done the maths for this?

 

I make it that there 47 counties in England (of which only 4 remain to be Sponsored), 30 in Scotand, 22 in Wales, 6 in Northern Ireland and 26 in Eire. Making a grand total of 131 caches.

 

Aiming to get them all will be a truly BIG Quest.

Does anyone else like the term "Sponsor" for the cache owner?

[+PopUpPirate]

Re point 10, rather than a forced adoption of a cache, just have another cache hidden in the county... doesnt have to be the same spot.

[+OldGimmer]

[snipped]

ANY WAY OF MAKING IT CHEAT-PROOF?

 

A Very Good Question

 

I would expect all cachers taking part in this quest to act responsibly, and keep any code numbers they have found confidential, just as they would for any other puzzle cache. Also as in Draft Guideline 9, the cache owner would be expected to monitor log postings for "Spoilers".

 

Anyway what good does it do to release the code numbers to others? It may mean that they finish the series before you do!

 

Because the code numbers do not directly lead to the final co-ordinates it would be possible to issue new numbers to caches if the codes for them become common knowledge. That would then mean modifying the records of anyone who had already found the cache legitimately. However this might not be a trivial task, it depends how we manage to keep the records. If everyone who logs all their caches as they find them, and then either separately logs them with Big Quest, (or if some way can be found to extract that info from the Geocaching site) it should be fairly easy to update their records with the new code value and/or email the cachers with the replacement code.

 

I had hoped that once all the codes for a region / Country/ British Isles had been found the cacher could simply enter the code on the BigQust site, or email the site, and have the co-ordinates sent to them. probably after a check that they had actually logged all the sites. However this is currently against the Groundspeak rules. They don't normally allow real cache co-ordinates to be issued by any other system except their site. But they may allow it in this case (Heres hoping). The DeLorme series of caches in the USA allow the owner of the "final" cache to supply real co-ordinates to a legitimate cacher, after their logs for claimed finds are checked. This is very similar to what we want to do, so there is a chance that we will also be allowed to do it.

 

I am in he process of trying to put together a e-letter to them to see if they would give their approval. One thing I think they will need to be sure of, before agreeing to the request, is that this is a serious project. But, judging by the interest shown on this board I don't think that that will be difficult.

 

Failing getting that approval I am working on a system, which I think will be fairly secure, where the co-ordinates for "final" cache are "Hidden in Plain View" within a largish number grid, published with on the final cache specification page. More on that later, if it is required.

[Deceangi]

Right more clarification for you

 

10. Cache owner to be prepared to maintain cache in long-term or be prepared to allow adoption

 

Generally accepted. Perhaps following this scheme suggested. "

 

"We would have to see if we could arrange some sort of system for a forced adoption if the requirement came about?

How about some sort of disclaimer on the cache page saying that if the cache was about to be archived by a reviewer due to not being able to get in touch, then a forced adoption would be allowed without any further permission??"

 

Is that is legal under the Groundspeak rules?

 

The Rules covering a Forced Adoption [which can only be done by Groundspeak]

 

The cache must be Active

 

The Owner has not logged into GC for at least 6 months

 

The prospective Adoptee must try to make contact with the cache owner, via email and by posting a note to the cache page.

 

Once a reasonable period in which the owner has not replied has past [4 weeks] the prospective adoptee, to contact one of the Reviewers with a request to take the process further.

 

The Reviewer if he [well all 3 UK Reviewers are males ] believes that the cache is suitable for adoption by the person making the request. Will post a Reviewer note to the cache giving the owner 4 weeks to either make contact about the cache or make a maintenance visit or the cache will either be Archived or Adopted over.

 

At the end of the 4 week period if the owner has not complied with the reviewers request, he will contact Groundspeak on the prospective owners behalf, with a recommendation that it be adopted over to the person making the request.

 

Groundspeak will take in to consideration the Reviewers recommendation whilst making their own investigations. Before taking action to either Adopt the cache over or Archive it.

 

This process is a slow one and has to be followed in all cases of Forced Adoption And would have to apply even if the permission for a Forced Adoption was posted on the cache page.

 

As PuP has suggested it would be easier to place a new Cache, than go through a Forced Adoption which is not guaranteed to happen

 

As for the letter to Groundspeak, please feel free to note the support of all 3 UK Reviewers, especially as one of them has put his name down for one of the county caches

[+OldGimmer]

After 2 long posts, this is a quicky.

 

Several people have made offers of help via the postings. Thank you very much for this. But with there being so many postings, backtracking to find these offers is very difficult.

 

If you can help, in any way you feel is useful, then drop me a PM please.

 

In it, let me know what you can offer to the cause.

 

There are 2 or 3 of us involved with the "Admin", but I'm sure more is better.

 

Thanks

[+CrazyL200]

All good stuff and it's moving forward nicely. I think the final version of the guidlines isn't far away.

 

1 Trad only

I think, now, this maybe the way forward. Anything else (except a short, well defined, offset), will make an already difficult quest, even more difficult, time consuming etc...

However, caching is caching and to add more interest is to add more pleasure? Hence my earlier suggestion for a simple, single stage, multi.

The offset, if used, could be a simple, find some numbers and substitute them into a 53 xy.abc type calculation, therefore avoiding the chance of time consuming error, while allowing the setter to bring the finders to an interesting location.

Trying to apply some form of time limit/estimate, is almost impossible. One cacher may take 30 secs to find something someone else takes 30 mins to find. We all have good and bad days , so even a straight forward large trad could still take more than the estimated time

 

5 Rating

Definately, where possible/practicable, include a HandiCaching rating.

 

10 Maintenance

For the Quest to survive long term, this is most important. I'm not sure Groundspeak would go for the "Enforced" adoption (except under the normal adoption rules). But, if all "sponsors" agree to this series having it's own rule in this case (maybe the normal addoption process, but with shorten time periods) re-instatement of a muggled or damaged cache could occur more quickly. A bit controversial, perhaps, but, I see no reason why something couldn't be worked out. Otherwise, if one cache falls by the wayside and, eventually, gets archived through lack of maintenance the series could stall for a long while in that area, while a new sponsor is found and a new cache placed.

Having said that, I'm sure those involved would be sensible enough to offer theirs up for adoption if there was a problem.

I would be too embarassed to end up with a forced adoption happening to mine.

 

11, 12, 13 Location, location, location

Quality is more important. The box itself, it's locaion and it's maintenance. So an interesting location is more important than being truly central in the area. As mentioned before, ease of maintanance and access is important to be able to maintain the quality.

 

I like the use of the word sponsor for the cache setters. (In case you haven't noticed ).

 

Which brings the subject of the final up. How do we determine what's in it?

The FTF prize will be one of the drivers for the Quest. Maybe not as much as the sense of achievement of getting there, at any time, but more so for the FTF.

If each sponsor sponsored the final in some small way, the FTF prize could be quite something.

Seeing as it's likely to be a while before it gets found, may I suggest that it's contents are kept to a minimum until it's clear that it's not far off being found, just in case it gets muggled or otherwise damaged in some way.

 

Sorry for the lenght of this, I seem to have do some thinking out loud

If I'm talking cobblers, tell me

[+Jaz666]

By the way, has anyone done the maths for this?

 

I make it that there 47 counties in England (of which only 4 remain to be Sponsored), 30 in Scotand, 22 in Wales, 6 in Northern Ireland and 26 in Eire. Making a grand total of 131 caches.

 

Aiming to get them all will be a truly BIG Quest.

 

It will be a big Quest, and to be honest I wouldn't expect many to get all the way to the end.

To the best of my knowledge the cachers who've cached in the most counties are Pengy&Tigger, who in just under 3 years of caching have done all but a few of the outlaying islands.

 

One important aspect which I don't think has been mentioned yet..... All caches should be as near to 100% muggle-proof as possible - which would probably mean no urban caches and none that would require the Stealth "attribute".

 

I'd personally be mightily miffed if I travelled 500 miles to pick up a key cache in the series, only to find it'd be trashed by the local chavs the night before (even though I don't drive, and will be unlikely to do much of this series).

 

Just my two-pence worth.

[+Blue Magician]

Can I have your responses to the following "Draft Guidelines" Version-1 (12/3/07)

 

3. Regional groups of caches to be created, e.g England - Southwest, West, North, East etc. These treated as separate sub-quests

Smaller regions with maybe 15 counties in each region with the final near one of the larger cities in the region.

Scotland North and South

Northern Ireland

Eire North and South

England North, Middle and South

Wales North and South

This gives 10 bite sized regions

4. Log all caches to gain access to co-ordinates of Final, Regional or National Cache (as appropriate)

Log all caches in a region to get coordinates for region final

Log all regions to gain The Final location

 

13. Final, Country and Regional Caches to be located reasonably close to centre of the area, where possible, or close to a location which is significant to the area.

Final region caches should be near large populated areas

 

Over to you folks.....

 

Try to be gentle with me.

[+Blue Magician]

Double post

Edited March 13, 2007 by Blue Magician

[+Twm-y-tonnau]

[snipped]

ANY WAY OF MAKING IT CHEAT-PROOF?

 

A Very Good Question

 

I would expect all cachers taking part in this quest to act responsibly, and keep any code numbers they have found confidential, just as they would for any other puzzle cache. Also as in Draft Guideline 9, the cache owner would be expected to monitor log postings for "Spoilers".

 

Anyway what good does it do to release the code numbers to others? It may mean that they finish the series before you do!

 

Because the code numbers do not directly lead to the final co-ordinates it would be possible to issue new numbers to caches if the codes for them become common knowledge. That would then mean modifying the records of anyone who had already found the cache legitimately. However this might not be a trivial task, it depends how we manage to keep the records. If everyone who logs all their caches as they find them, and then either separately logs them with Big Quest, (or if some way can be found to extract that info from the Geocaching site) it should be fairly easy to update their records with the new code value and/or email the cachers with the replacement code.

 

I had hoped that once all the codes for a region / Country/ British Isles had been found the cacher could simply enter the code on the BigQust site, or email the site, and have the co-ordinates sent to them. probably after a check that they had actually logged all the sites. However this is currently against the Groundspeak rules. They don't normally allow real cache co-ordinates to be issued by any other system except their site. But they may allow it in this case (Heres hoping). The DeLorme series of caches in the USA allow the owner of the "final" cache to supply real co-ordinates to a legitimate cacher, after their logs for claimed finds are checked. This is very similar to what we want to do, so there is a chance that we will also be allowed to do it.

 

I am in he process of trying to put together a e-letter to them to see if they would give their approval. One thing I think they will need to be sure of, before agreeing to the request, is that this is a serious project. But, judging by the interest shown on this board I don't think that that will be difficult.

 

Failing getting that approval I am working on a system, which I think will be fairly secure, where the co-ordinates for "final" cache are "Hidden in Plain View" within a largish number grid, published with on the final cache specification page. More on that later, if it is required.

 

Re cheat proof: What about a photo of the cacher at each location as in the American version.

This would prevent people signing on their mates behalf, so they can cover differant regions quickly.

[+The Mighty Shark]

One important aspect which I don't think has been mentioned yet..... All caches should be as near to 100% muggle-proof as possible - which would probably mean no urban caches and none that would require the Stealth "attribute".

 

I'd personally be mightily miffed if I travelled 500 miles to pick up a key cache in the series, only to find it'd be trashed by the local chavs the night before (even though I don't drive, and will be unlikely to do much of this series).

 

Just my two-pence worth.

 

A very good point indeed and one I feel will sadly be almost impossible to achieve.

[+TMM-Sarah]

Looks like East Sussex is sorted!!

 

Thornproof will do it

 

Sarah

[+FunLovingGeocacher]

I'm part of the "Blog Standard" series, which was planned as 18 UK wide caches.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest.asp...y=blog+standard

 

Only 5 got off the ground and in 2 years no one has grabbed all those yet as far as I know. I wonder how long it would take to find all these?

[+Bambography]

SNIPPY SNIP...

As PuP has suggested it would be easier to place a new Cache, than go through a Forced Adoption which is not guaranteed to happen

If this were the case, are you able to make a forced, but 'slight' change to the old cache name. Since the series is to have a standard naming convention, this would need to be continued on the new replacement.

SNIP AGAIN...

Which brings the subject of the final up. How do we determine what's in it?

The FTF prize will be one of the drivers for the Quest. Maybe not as much as the sense of achievement of getting there, at any time, but more so for the FTF.

If each sponsor sponsored the final in some small way, the FTF prize could be quite something.

Seeing as it's likely to be a while before it gets found, may I suggest that it's contents are kept to a minimum until it's clear that it's not far off being found, just in case it gets muggled or otherwise damaged in some way.

I doubt the final cache will be placed at the same time as the rest of the caches. The final location and its contents will i'm sure be cause for debate, and possibly even become a legend, who knows.

I like the idea of everyone clubbing together for the FTF contents, and I have one or two possible ideas for FTF prizes, but i'm saying nowt for now

[+CrazyL200]

SNIP AGAIN...

Which brings the subject of the final up. How do we determine what's in it?

The FTF prize will be one of the drivers for the Quest. Maybe not as much as the sense of achievement of getting there, at any time, but more so for the FTF.

If each sponsor sponsored the final in some small way, the FTF prize could be quite something.

Seeing as it's likely to be a while before it gets found, may I suggest that it's contents are kept to a minimum until it's clear that it's not far off being found, just in case it gets muggled or otherwise damaged in some way.

I doubt the final cache will be placed at the same time as the rest of the caches. The final location and its contents will i'm sure be cause for debate, and possibly even become a legend, who knows.

I like the idea of everyone clubbing together for the FTF contents, and I have one or two possible ideas for FTF prizes, but i'm saying nowt for now

 

No, true, it doesn't need to be placed until virtually the last minute. But it's co-ordinates need to be determined from the outset.

I too, have an idea or two for the FTF prize.

[+Bambography]

No, true, it doesn't need to be placed until virtually the last minute. But it's co-ordinates need to be determined from the outset.

I too, have an idea or two for the FTF prize.

That depends on how the final Coords are revealed. If they are emailled out on completion they too can be last minute, however if they are set and slowly revealled, then yes they will need to be confirmed almost before anything else!

[+Kryten]

I would be a nice idea to offer one of the West of Scotland counties, preferably the one in which the Isle of Bute is located, to Billy Twigger. Those in contact with him will know better though, what do people think.

[+Eclectic Penguin]

How is the list being maintained and do I have to do more than just volunteer in this thread? I've seen a few English counties added to the list since I first saw it, but I still haven't been added to the list, despite volunteering Carmarthenshire on the 9th.

 

[EDIT: Ok, I've now seen the post about adding your own details and done so]

Edited March 14, 2007 by Eclectic Penguin

[markandlynn]

Id say to avoid cheating via private email groups etc you could have the cache owners confirm the names in the log book make it a 2 monthly requirement of owning one of these ?

 

Anyone designed a logo yet ?

 

Could we put the rules html etc on the wiki at guk for now ? would make them easier to find and read and edit?

 

have found a great rolling shropshire hill for ours

[+Bambography]

How is the list being maintained and do I have to do more than just volunteer in this thread? I've seen a few English counties added to the list since I first saw it, but I still haven't been added to the list, despite volunteering Carmarthenshire on the 9th.

 

[EDIT: Ok, I've now seen the post about adding your own details and done so]

For clarity, you can pick a county for yourself at THIS SITE

[+Team Clova]

When we signed up for this all of 6 short days ago, it was a challenge where the FTF would collect some info from a cache in every county

 

A challenge!!

 

Now we cant set multis - definitely no puzzles - no difficult terrain - no sneaky hides etc

 

Its meant to be a challenge????

 

The US version is probably going to take 5 years to complete - with 50 caches. This version, with double the number of caches, could probably be completed by a keen cacher in less than a month. Where is the challenge??

 

What started off as an exciting challenge that would be a huge achievement to accomplish has become a watered down version to make it easy for people to complete?

 

Not sure we still want to be part of it

[+macroderma]

When we signed up for this all of 6 short days ago, it was a challenge where the FTF would collect some info from a cache in every county

 

A challenge!!

 

Now we cant set multis - definitely no puzzles - no difficult terrain - no sneaky hides etc

 

Its meant to be a challenge????

 

The US version is probably going to take 5 years to complete - with 50 caches. This version, with double the number of caches, could probably be completed by a keen cacher in less than a month. Where is the challenge??

 

What started off as an exciting challenge that would be a huge achievement to accomplish has become a watered down version to make it easy for people to complete?

 

Not sure we still want to be part of it

 

I think the point most people are making is that the geographical challenge is huge in itself without making the caches real stinkers. There are individual caches and short series that offer those sort of challenges. Anyway a 2.5/2.5 limit could still be tricky to find

[+Bambi&Thumper]

 

Which brings the subject of the final up. How do we determine what's in it?

The FTF prize will be one of the drivers for the Quest. Maybe not as much as the sense of achievement of getting there, at any time, but more so for the FTF.

If each sponsor sponsored the final in some small way, the FTF prize could be quite something.

Seeing as it's likely to be a while before it gets found, may I suggest that it's contents are kept to a minimum until it's clear that it's not far off being found, just in case it gets muggled or otherwise damaged in some way.

 

Sorry for the lenght of this, I seem to have do some thinking out loud

If I'm talking cobblers, tell me

 

I too had a thought or two on the subject of prizes. I know not everyone is into coins, but it might be nice if we could get a set of coins minted for finders of the final cache and/or the country level ones? FTF coins could be in gold say, and others in some sort of silver. Dunno how we'd fund it though...

 

B.

[+macroderma]

 

Which brings the subject of the final up. How do we determine what's in it?

The FTF prize will be one of the drivers for the Quest. Maybe not as much as the sense of achievement of getting there, at any time, but more so for the FTF.

If each sponsor sponsored the final in some small way, the FTF prize could be quite something.

Seeing as it's likely to be a while before it gets found, may I suggest that it's contents are kept to a minimum until it's clear that it's not far off being found, just in case it gets muggled or otherwise damaged in some way.

 

Sorry for the lenght of this, I seem to have do some thinking out loud

If I'm talking cobblers, tell me

 

I too had a thought or two on the subject of prizes. I know not everyone is into coins, but it might be nice if we could get a set of coins minted for finders of the final cache and/or the country level ones? FTF coins could be in gold say, and others in some sort of silver. Dunno how we'd fund it though...

 

B.

 

Well, if someone who knows about such things produced, say 500 'ordinary' ones for sale, that could finance the 12 odd super smart ones as FTF prizes

 

I am a sucker for shiny geocoins (my IOM ones arrived yesterday, very nice they are too)

[markandlynn]

If we can get a LARGE container for the final i would happily donate a high value SWAP to the final cache.

[+Midnight Ramblers]

Well, stay away from this forum for a few days an look what I missed

 

So, I'll just have to wait until these caches are up and ready, come on guys what's taking so long?

 

Great idea, by the way. I'm sad to not be playing a part ...

Edited March 14, 2007 by Midnight Ramblers

[+OldGimmer]

When we signed up for this all of 6 short days ago, it was a challenge where the FTF would collect some info from a cache in every county

 

Not only the FTF, but anyone who finds the cache

 

A challenge!!

 

Now we cant set multis - definitely no puzzles - no difficult terrain - no sneaky hides etc

 

Its meant to be a challenge????

 

The US version is probably going to take 5 years to complete - with 50 caches. This version, with double the number of caches, could probably be completed by a keen cacher in less than a month. Where is the challenge??

 

What started off as an exciting challenge that would be a huge achievement to accomplish has become a watered down version to make it easy for people to complete?

 

Not sure we still want to be part of it

 

The idea of Traditional style caches only has been included in the project virtually from the start, and the majority of posts have been in favour of this, with some feeling for Offset caches also to be included. That seems sensible where the cache-placer want to take the seeker to somewhere interesting e.g. a monument or similar, but it is not allowable to place the actual cacahe at that site. In such cases an offset is more appropriate.

 

The US scheme also recommends Traditional caches only, in Regular sized containers. They don't allow anything else in their guidelines.

 

I'm sorry that you think that limiting to Trads and Offsets trivialise the quest. Most posters seem to think that the idea of collecting all the caches, Regional, National or overall, is a definite challenge. Also a number of cachers have made very valid points that, considering the distances involved (and the time commitment made), it would be very frustrating to find that what was assumed to be a fairly simple puzzle-cache turned out to be impossible to crack when at the site. If you want puzzle caches , sneaky hides etc. why not add those to your visit to the area where the Quest cache is placed. There are lots of caches around, there will, almost certainly, be others near the Quest cache site.

[+Team Clova]

When we signed up for this all of 6 short days ago, it was a challenge where the FTF would collect some info from a cache in every county

 

Not only the FTF, but anyone who finds the cache

 

Doh! was having a blonde moment when I typed that!

 

 

The idea of Traditional style caches only has been included in the project virtually from the start, and the majority of posts have been in favour of this, with some feeling for Offset caches also to be included. That seems sensible where the cache-placer want to take the seeker to somewhere interesting e.g. a monument or similar, but it is not allowable to place the actual cacahe at that site. In such cases an offset is more appropriate.

 

The US scheme also recommends Traditional caches only, in Regular sized containers. They don't allow anything else in their guidelines.

 

I'm sorry that you think that limiting to Trads and Offsets trivialise the quest. Most posters seem to think that the idea of collecting all the caches, Regional, National or overall, is a definite challenge. Also a number of cachers have made very valid points that, considering the distances involved (and the time commitment made), it would be very frustrating to find that what was assumed to be a fairly simple puzzle-cache turned out to be impossible to crack when at the site. If you want puzzle caches , sneaky hides etc. why not add those to your visit to the area where the Quest cache is placed. There are lots of caches around, there will, almost certainly, be others near the Quest cache site.

 

I dont think that limiting it to Trads and Offsets in any way trivialises the quest, and I would hope that no cacher would place "what was assumed to be a fairly simple puzzle-cache turned out to be impossible to crack when at the site." as it most definitely wouldnt be fair if a cacher had made a journey of great length specifically to find that one cache. However I dont see what the problem would be in a solve at home and check the co-ords with the cache owner before setting off on 300mile trip type puzzle?

 

The main thing that I think is trivialising the quest is limiting terrain rating to 2.5. As you said in your first post, the US equivalent could take up to 5 years to be completed. Some of the terrain 2.5 caches we have done could be classed as cache and dashes. Yes in the UK it might be a big undertaking to complete the challenge geographically but several counties could be done in one day here. Mainland Scotland could probably be completed in one weekend without any problems! Could as many caches in the US equivalent be collected in a weekend? The BIGquest could be completed in under a month!

 

The geographical challenge in the US is huge taking into account the distances involved - on mainland Britain the distance between John O Groats and Lands End is 874 miles - yes its a large distance but not HUGE. The geographical challenge here is tiny compared to the equivalent.

 

Dont get us wrong - we think the quest is an excellent idea (thats why we signed up at the start) but for it to be a true challenge there should be a variety of caches in a variety of terrains. Leave it up to the individual setter to decide on the cache they want to place. have less rules - I know of cachers who are put off this idea by the rules they will have to understand and abide by to have their caches included. So what if the challenge isnt completed for 3-4 years here because there are several 5/5 caches which take a great deal of planning into completing, along with a few 2 hour multis, some quick drive bys along with what will probably be the majority of traditional 2.5/2.5 caches. If a cacher really wants to be proud of their achievement make it a real challenge- physically and mentally

[+Bambography]

i know this is my personal opinion, but I don't tend to enjoy many of the really tricky puzzle caches out there.

 

In terms of BigQuest, It will be enough of a challenge for me to complete with traditional caches, and wouldn't take any enjoyment out of it on my part. I'd be over the moon to have cached in every county of the British Isles.

Although I accept the point that it should be a challenge, and they invariably means doing things you find hard, I think if this is to be an inclusive challenge then it needs to appeal to as many people as possible without potential put-offs.