+briansnat Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 The Schuber (Orange) trail is the primary goal of this hike. It's approximately 6.5 miles in length (one way), I will hike the length of the trail, then hike back to the main Route 202 parking lot. The other end of the trail is near the "upper" parking lot on Skyline Drive, so if you can arrange a ride, you don't have to hike all the way back (I guestimate the entire loop that I'll do to be just over 13 miles). For one way treks on the Schuber, it's best to start on Skyline and end at 202. The other way is all uphill. Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted June 8, 2010 Author Share Posted June 8, 2010 Ah the little logistical feature that tells me to listen to Brian. Bill, maybe we will meet you on the way through. Quote Link to comment
polskikrol Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 The Schuber (Orange) trail is the primary goal of this hike. It's approximately 6.5 miles in length (one way), I will hike the length of the trail, then hike back to the main Route 202 parking lot. The other end of the trail is near the "upper" parking lot on Skyline Drive, so if you can arrange a ride, you don't have to hike all the way back (I guestimate the entire loop that I'll do to be just over 13 miles). For one way treks on the Schuber, it's best to start on Skyline and end at 202. The other way is all uphill. No exercise in just going all down hill Too bad it cant be all uphill round trip! Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted June 9, 2010 Author Share Posted June 9, 2010 Seems like that is still open to debate: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=328439 I hope to leave off from Skyline and meet you along the trail, unless I can get someone to shuttle me back up from the bottom. I do not plan on walking up and back. Quote Link to comment
+wjgrun Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 I hope to leave off from Skyline and meet you along the trail, unless I can get someone to shuttle me back up from the bottom. I do not plan on walking up and back. If you leave from Route 202 with me, the walk back to your car would be all down hill.. haha.. I'm willing to pick people up from Skyline Drive before the hike - if you're willing to hike from the 202 lot (up hill all the way) back to Skyline Drive! I'd still like to be on the trail by 7:00am though. Bill Quote Link to comment
+wjgrun Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 Is anyone joining me for this hike tomorrow (Sunday)? Would anyone like me to pick them up at the Skyline Drive parking lot, so that they can do the one-way hike? Bill Quote Link to comment
+wjgrun Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 I had a rough Saturday night (sick child), and when I checked at 5:30AM, no one had responded. I managed to get a few hours of sleep and ended up getting to Ramapo late and was assaulted there by some Polish fellow, who forced me to do some other hike. Therefore, the planned Schuber hike will be re-scheduled. I have some free time early tomorrow (Tuesday, June 15), so I am planning a quick hike. I will be hiking the Cooper Union trail from the trail head on Sloatsburg Road (near the NJ/NY border) down to Governor Mountain (and back, about 7.3 miles total). If anyone is interested in joining me, please let me know asap (respond here or email me) Bill Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted June 23, 2010 Author Share Posted June 23, 2010 Rumor has it that there are some folks trying to put together a Sunday AM, Highlands NY ride on the Walkway over the Hudson. Trying to confirm. Quote Link to comment
+accbd Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Plan on starting 8:00am Sunday at the tony williams town park, lloyd, ny (N 41° 44.187 W 074° 00.092) and heading east on the hudson valley rails-trail - crossing over the hudson river walkway and cruising for a few miles on the dutchess county rail-trail before heading back to the parking. A bounty of caches and experiencing the walkway should make for a good morning. Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted June 23, 2010 Author Share Posted June 23, 2010 See it was not a rumor, if I can get clear I plan on attending. Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Keep me posted. This is my first soccer free weekend for the past 3 months. Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted June 24, 2010 Author Share Posted June 24, 2010 (edited) http://www.flickr.com/photos/cemeteryrodeo...337003/sizes/l/ Looks like a go. Should be interesting because nothing connects. We should be able to get lost in no time at all. I hope someone remembers to mark the parking location. Edited June 24, 2010 by Packanack Quote Link to comment
+accbd Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 This will be one of our challenges Sunday Highland Series #1: All Aboard GC16ZH3 5 star difficulty 11 finds 40 dnf last found June 2 Quote Link to comment
+WaylessWood Posted June 26, 2010 Share Posted June 26, 2010 Sounds like the ride is on, I'll be there. Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted June 27, 2010 Author Share Posted June 27, 2010 (edited) Richard--Sorry we got our directions crossed up. We stopped and asked a guy who was watering plants for the town--Where is there a caboose--After he yukked it up be saying look behind you--he directed away from where we were down to the Walkway--from there we were lost--but what a spectacular way to get lost, we did the loop , swung into the state park did some hiking, saw some ruins and just had a great time. Thanks for getting us out --See you soon Edited June 27, 2010 by Packanack Quote Link to comment
+accbd Posted June 27, 2010 Share Posted June 27, 2010 Sorry we missed you- caught up with Ramapo and Waylesswood (eagle eye) for the journey – final tally was 21 miles, 2 bridges (Hudson valley walkway, Mid Hudson bridge), 11 caches - several bottles of water - great area to explore, riding the bridges and great company made the day – I know we will all be very happy when all the rail-trails are connected (explored the future sections) – see you on the next adventure Quote Link to comment
+trowel32 Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 Arrgghh...I really have to check in here more often I have been wanting to bike more of that rail trail and check out the Walkway over the Hudson. The last time I was up there the walkway was still under construction. Oh well...thanks for posting the map. I will probably go up and bike it one of these weekends. Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted June 29, 2010 Author Share Posted June 29, 2010 Trowel Commonly, I hear from people who say the very same thing--Oh, If I had known I would have loved to have done that hike, paddle, bike or what have you. Well if you go to the top of the page, where it says options and you use the drop down menu--and click on subscribe to the topic---you will automatically receive an E Mail when the topic receives a post, so you will know when something is being planned and the location and time of meeting. I have been suggesting to some others that they may want to subscribe to the topic and to use the thead for announcing activities. accbd and wgrun have used it and they have had some nice outings. The last one was accbd's trip and it was spectacular. Personally, I enjoy the social aspects of these geo trips as much if not more than cache finding-- So subscribe--and the same goes for anyone else who might want to get out in a group setting or who might want to sponsor a group trip. I have had people tell me that I should make these things Events, but many of them are impromtu hike/bike decided on Wednesday for Sunday, does not lend itself to Event status. I know that I would certainly welcome anyone who would care to come out and would welcome others inviting fellow cachers out for a group hike or the like. We plan on doing the Wallkill Valley Rail Trail in New Paltz in September. And perhaps a re do of the Walkway Trip in the Fall also. Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted July 13, 2010 Author Share Posted July 13, 2010 (edited) High Summer and everyone is busy with vacations, bar b ques, weddings , yard work and the like But some of our group wants to do the following: Columbia Rail Trail --near Flanders NJ Paulinskill, Newton Blairstown area Wallkill Valley Rail Trail New Paltz NY Governors Island New York Harbor, this is the prize, we wanted to ride down the bikeway to the ferry last year and ride about governors island now open to the public Central Park weekend ride about the drives. And hitting the 5 Star NY points. GC28Z7A A puzzle cache placed 2 months ago and remaining un found. It has now become something of a curiosity to some of us, we would like to pool talent to see if this can be figured out shortly. These are pleasant , not too difficult rides, usually include some caching, so if anyone is interested you are most welcome to join us. Edited July 13, 2010 by Packanack Quote Link to comment
+accbd Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Time to start checking off the list I am doing Sunday morning biking – caching on the Columbia Trail Starting point: 8:00 am Sunday 7/18 Municipal Parking lot Van Syckle Street High Bridge, NJ http://beta.mapmyride.com/route/detail/19425416/ http://www.co.hunterdon.nj.us/depts/parks/...lumbiaTrail.htm anyone interested in joining let me know accuweather indicates hot and humid – bring plenty of water Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted July 16, 2010 Author Share Posted July 16, 2010 I believe I will be attending--but why so late ? Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted August 12, 2010 Author Share Posted August 12, 2010 Hey there , Geocachers, Miss Julie Mc Coy here. Sometimes that is what it feels like, as I got a call from a friend, who said what do you have planned for Sunday, two words, I said : Ramapo Rally , He said Huh ? So I said go to RAMAPORALLY.COM and check it out. He was a little miffed , cause I did not mention or make any invites. He also was kind of snarky , about my not having any hikes etc. etc. . After I exchanged soime pleasantries with him. I said OK, deal is 25 miles, cause I am getting old, fat and tired and all I have been doing is walking no riding. Am running my PQ off of 07430 cause I am going to try and see if there are caches along the way. On Line registraqtion through tomorrow, registration in person at Campgaw. If anyone has interest. This Sunday from Campgaw. Quote Link to comment
+Straatmaker 5 Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 What time are you meeting for drinks at the Lido deck? Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted September 26, 2010 Author Share Posted September 26, 2010 (edited) You really know who your friends are : Ask a couple of friends if they would help teach the nuances of geocaching , while on a 20 mile bike ride to a group of Boy Scouts--If they say yes--they are keepers. Thanks Paul, Richard and Bill, -- Ramapo , accbd and Bill to the Geocaching world, respectively. My friend at my local troop asked if I would help them plan such a ride and do a geocaching thing, I said sure, but I knew to recruit a couple of much more patient personalities to the cause. Herding Cats is easier. But they were able to impart some of their considerable geocaching and bicycling sense to the boys and they took their own time to give something back to the game. Thanks Guys. Geocaching is a new merit badge of BSA and they will no doubt be seeking merit badge counsellors in the near future, think about it. Planning the search. acccbd says Wallkill Valley Rail Trail--New Paltz on 10/17 Edited September 26, 2010 by Packanack Quote Link to comment
+accbd Posted October 8, 2010 Share Posted October 8, 2010 (edited) Sunday Oct 17 is looking good for a fall bike ride on the Wallkill Valley rail trail. Looking for an early start - meet 8:30am at the Sojourner Truth Park in New Paltz - ride looks like about 25 miles new paltz to gardiner back up to rosendale village and then back to new paltz if our timing is good we can stop in for lunch at the Gilded Otter http://www.mapmyride.com/ride/united-state...128576592632811 Edited October 9, 2010 by accbd Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted October 12, 2010 Author Share Posted October 12, 2010 PM sent, I have ridden this rail trail many times in the past, last time probably five years ago, hope to be there. It is well worth making the ride. One time I followed a coyote down the trail for a good couple of miles, he just trotting ahead of me by about 100 feet, just keeping pace, before he turned off in an apple orchard. Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted October 18, 2010 Author Share Posted October 18, 2010 Thanks for the ride, October truly is a wonderful month. Next up--Hurley or Paulinskill ?? Sometime before the snow flies. Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted December 30, 2010 Author Share Posted December 30, 2010 (edited) Every year for the last several years I have invited those who might be interested in riding in the Five Borough Bike Tour in NYC to ride with our little group, which grew out of our meeting through Geocaching. It is that time again, so even though they have raised the price of a ticket to ride we are still planning on doing it again. When the weather warms we usually throw together some conditioning rides , which almost always involve a little bike caching. I bring this up now, because although the ride is scheduled for May 1 20011, sign up is February 1 , and can only be done on-line. The expectation is that the field will be filled very shortly thereafter. If you have an interest, google BikeNY.org and sign up for E Mail notices. If you have interest in joining our group , let me know and we will keep you informed. We usually have a great time and we really have had wonderful rides since. You can see us above, 6th row right side. Edited December 30, 2010 by Packanack Quote Link to comment
+ramapo Posted December 30, 2010 Share Posted December 30, 2010 I will second Packanack's invitation. Riding up the middle of Sixth Ave past Radio City, bicycling down the Harlem River Drive, over the Queensboro Bridge and down the BQE is a fairly unique experience. And it is easier than you might think. He did get one thing wrong. We ALWAYS have had a good time, even in a cold, wet rain. Although there is no guarantee that we show up if it rains in NYC on May 1, 2011. Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 Being a little bored today, I am going out to hide a couple of caches. But I was thinking of going out to hide a couple of virtuals tomorrow am, anyone interested. Want to be ready for when they return. Quote Link to comment
+weathernowcast Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Being a little bored today, I am going out to hide a couple of caches. But I was thinking of going out to hide a couple of virtuals tomorrow am, anyone interested. Want to be ready for when they return. My blackberry "rang" and told me about your post... I will join you--call me when you wake up....I am going back to bed now Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 Woke at 6 walked dog. Temp 0 went back to bed. Quote Link to comment
+weathernowcast Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Woke at 6 walked dog. Temp 0 went back to bed. So you got to experience the coldest 30 minutes of the day! I am jealous as I was tucked in bed... Where we going? Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) Was up at 5:30, temp was -2. Went out at 6:30 in my jammies and socks to warm up the car because I had to be in East Hanover early for a referee recertification course. Ran back to the house to find I was locked out. Thankfully I had the house keys in the car, but it wasn't fun making the trip twice. Edited January 23, 2011 by briansnat Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 Guess you are really glad you don't sleep au natural I could not stand hanging around the house, so I went to the dog park, hid some virtuals--they are good ones too. And actually found a cache. weathernowcast actually went caching. Who else is going out in the cold ? Or have the rest of Norther NJ cachers turned into "wusses" a la Pa. Gov. Seriously whose getting out ? Quote Link to comment
+wesi Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Seriously whose getting out ? I was out last weekend, plowing through the surprisingly deep snow drifts in Havemeyer Hollow. But this weekend ... nope. I got a couple days off coming up in February, and spent this Sunday scouting maps for caching hikes in Florida. Yes, I guess planning to run south for a week does make me a wuss. Then again, I'm Swiss, I kinda know about snow and effing cold and glove thumbs freezing to the GPS display, I don't think I have to practice Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) Did a in VT and bagged two caches along the way over the weekend. BTW, how do you "hide" a virtual? Edited January 25, 2011 by briansnat Quote Link to comment
+Michaelcycle Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Seriously whose getting out ? Grabbed a few caches yesterday on the mountain bike. Hard to find them under crusty snow but it felt good to get out for a few hours!! Biggest problem was keeping the bike upright on the ice patches. Quote Link to comment
+hallycat Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Got out Sunday on Snowshoes with Mmac and Sakiman and bagged 5. Most had to be dislodged or banged open because of ice and snow.. Good times! 5.5 miles on the shoes. Quote Link to comment
+Harry Dolphin Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Did five cache and dashes Sunday in Clifton/Passaic. Hey, they're on Andy Bear's Ten-Mile List. With the snow and the cold, cache and dashes are fun! Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Did five cache and dashes Sunday in Clifton/Passaic. Hey, they're on Andy Bear's Ten-Mile List. With the snow and the cold, cache and dashes are fun! There are caches in Passaic? Last I looked my home town was totally devoid of caches. I was thinking of heading over to 3rd Ward Park to remedy that when the snow clears. Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) Caches in Passaic, yes there are actually now 3, one of which is actually really interesting thanks to Pmolan. How do you hide a virtual, the master hider, asked with his tongure firmly in cheek ? To which I say: 1. You go to Sterling Forest and ask about placing a geocache, you do the dance and get the brush off--you do this a year or so ago with another cacher as witness--accbd and I did it then. 2. You make further inquiry by mail and e mail and phone and your get no response-- you get pariah complex. 3. You return by yourself on the coldest day of the year and do step 1 over again and get told alternatively , never heard of geocaching , what is that ? Don't allow them. Scratch head and say Huh. Then you post hole through the snow up to the Look Out Tower and say, wow, what a great spot for a virtual cache--then you say WOW again and gift that virtual hide to anyone who wants it for a hide.(added plus, they actually open this up for patrons on certain weekends and holidays. Then you go back down to the furnace and works and say WOW this would be another great virtual. Then you go home and watch football and fall asleep in the recliner. To anyone who would like them as hides E Mail me and I will send you the coordinates and information so you can put them in queue for when virtuals return. That is how I would hide a virtual, I can't wait for the return, I think it will infuse our game with new enthusiasm, yes even giddiness. Edited January 25, 2011 by Packanack Quote Link to comment
+wjgrun Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 1. You go to Sterling Forest and ask about placing a geocache, you do the dance and get the brush off--you do this a year or so ago with another cacher as witness--accbd and I did it then. 2. You make further inquiry by mail and e mail and phone and your get no response-- you get pariah complex. 3. You return by yourself on the coldest day of the year and do step 1 over again and get told alternatively , never heard of geocaching , what is that ? Don't allow them. Scratch head and say Huh. BAH! I was planning to visit Sterling Forest (in early spring) to request geocache placement permission. We have to drag these guys out to try it. Do you think there's any chance they can be swayed or was it an adamant "NO WAY, not going to happen"? I was going to prepare a case for geocaching in Sterling Forest with cache examples, documentation, copies of the NYS permit application I used for Harriman State Park (with their rules, etc). Do you think this would be a colossal waste of time? Bill Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 I am not a good one to ask. I have been told that I have the charm of a night in Jersey City, the subtlety of a sledge hammer and the sensitivity of 80 grit sand paper-- and those are just my good points. But in fairness accbd actually made the inquiry (first time)and he is as gentlemanly as they come. I think the better answer would come from someone like brianb or wayless wood, perhaps BrianSnat could give you insight. All I know is that it was almost like there was a policy in place that said the best way to deal with this is to simply ignore it. I would like to think that , rather than think it was maybe --ME. But Sterling Forest sticks out like a 9th Avenue Working girl at a Sweet 16 Party for its lack of caches. Quote Link to comment
+macatac1961 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 1. You go to Sterling Forest and ask about placing a geocache, you do the dance and get the brush off--you do this a year or so ago with another cacher as witness--accbd and I did it then. 2. You make further inquiry by mail and e mail and phone and your get no response-- you get pariah complex. 3. You return by yourself on the coldest day of the year and do step 1 over again and get told alternatively , never heard of geocaching , what is that ? Don't allow them. Scratch head and say Huh. BAH! I was planning to visit Sterling Forest (in early spring) to request geocache placement permission. We have to drag these guys out to try it. Do you think there's any chance they can be swayed or was it an adamant "NO WAY, not going to happen"? I was going to prepare a case for geocaching in Sterling Forest with cache examples, documentation, copies of the NYS permit application I used for Harriman State Park (with their rules, etc). Do you think this would be a colossal waste of time? Bill It might be a big waste of time, but it also might be just what is needed to get the ball rolling in there. Let them know that we mean the park no harm. Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 (edited) Then you post hole through the snow up to the Look Out Tower and say, wow, what a great spot for a virtual cache--then you say WOW again and gift that virtual hide to anyone who wants it for a hide.(added plus, they actually open this up for patrons on certain weekends and holidays. One of the original real caches was at the fire tower. Great spot. t might be a big waste of time, but it also might be just what is needed to get the ball rolling in there. Let them know that we mean the park no harm. Harm is obviously not the issue. ATVs have been tearing up the park for years unhindered. Check out the mess that the Lake to Lake trail has become. They don't have the manpower to address it we're told. Yet they had the manpower to send out parks personnel to remove caches. Go figure. Caches in Passaic, yes there are actually now 3, one of which is actually really interesting thanks to Pmolan. Guess I haven't looked recently enough. I notice Pmolan has one within 3 blocks of my boyhood home. Edited January 26, 2011 by briansnat Quote Link to comment
+Harry Dolphin Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Caches in Passaic, yes there are actually now 3, one of which is actually really interesting thanks to Pmolan. I will have to say that it utterly astounded us! Not quite sure what to make of it, but Andy Bear liked it so much that it got one of our 'favorite' votes! One thing I like about geocaching is geocaches that take you to interesting places. Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 (edited) Thanks for your call today. Your information is not true. Geocachers are welcome here at Sterling and at Schunnemunk. I manage both Parks. All must have permits. They’re free. They’re good for a couple of years and must be renewed. They’re obtained through my office and only take a few days to obtain, once approved. I have the requisite mapping program and history on the land to identify and confirm if location of cache is suitable. I enjoy caching myself, and was hoping to interest others to use the Park. Attached is an application you may print (two sided legal), complete info required and mail in to us at the address below. This form is good for any Park in NYS but should be mailed to the Park Manager of the individual Park. I suggest you walk the area first, find what you believe to be a rewarding hike, a hide site and grab your proposed coordinates. Allow some time to approve the location, make any changes if necessary and issue permit. I look forward to hearing from you and others…… Jeff Hutchinson I sent a letter via fax and accbd and I spoke with Mr. Hutchinson, who brought us up to speed, in addition to looking for quality permitted caches, he would welcome some virtuals for areas of environmental or historical value. Moreover, he is a cacher himself. He was very cordial and forthcoming. He notes that non permitted caches will be removed and there are some that have been identified within his management area, specifically Schunnemunk Mtn area. I was very impressed with his friendliness and courtesy. If you E Mail me I can E Mail you a copy of the permit application. There are per cacher limits and if we work with them it should be mutually beneficial. Quality and responsible hides seems to be the goal. Edited January 26, 2011 by Packanack Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Caches in Passaic, yes there are actually now 3, one of which is actually really interesting thanks to Pmolan. I will have to say that it utterly astounded us! Not quite sure what to make of it, but Andy Bear liked it so much that it got one of our 'favorite' votes! One thing I like about geocaching is geocaches that take you to interesting places. As someone who spent the first 24 years of his life in Passaic, I think Pmolan got the one of the few interesting places in Passaic. They spent much of the 2nd half of the 20th century destroying the interesting places. I recall a spot called 100 steps from my childhood. I thought it would be a cool place for a cache but could never find it's location. Not sure if it's even there anymore. And there is a cache in Pulaski Park. Maybe things have changed since I was a Passaic boy, but Pulaski Park is not a park that I would have ventured into even in daylight 25 years ago. Armory Park is a pretty cool spot. Lots of history there. When Rt 21 was put through they discovered an old cemetery. The Continental Army camped there. Unfortunately Rt 21 ruined the park. I once scoured it looking for a good spot for a cache but couldn't find a spot. That was before the days of the micro, so I'm sure I could find a spot now. IIRC, Packanack placed one there but it doesn't seem to have lasted long. 3rd Ward Park might be the largest park left in NJ without a cache. I spent many years wandering it, so I'm sure I could come up with a few good spots for a cache. Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 (edited) ...He notes that non permitted caches will be removed and there are some that have been identified within his management area, specifically Schunnemunk Mtn area... I still find it astonishing that they have the manpower to remove harmless pieces of concealed Tupperware but not to police the rampant ATV abuse. Anyway if you have a permit application, could you send me one? Edited January 26, 2011 by briansnat Quote Link to comment
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