Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area

[+Woodlit]

So I'm pretty sure there are no geocaches allowed in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area (right?), but I'm having a little bit of trouble finding the exact boundaries of the park.

 

The National Park Service website has some really good maps in PDF form, but they don't have any lat or long lines on them. Although they give a really good idea of the boundaries, some of the awesome hide locations are border line, and I can't tell for sure.

 

Then I tried Google and Mapquest maps. But for some odd reason, those two services show the boundaries to be different. hmm

 

My GPSr has maps of other parks (morris county parks), but of course not this one.

 

Has anybody run across a good set of maps for the park? One where the boundaries are very clear, and hopefully with latitude and longitude lines?

 

Thanks!

 

Edit: to many typos

Edited February 17, 2007 by Woodlit

[Keystone]

The reviewers use all the maps linked from the cache page, plus the NPS maps that you describe. It is challenging sometimes to determine which side of a boundary a set of coordinates falls on.

 

If you hide a cache just outside the boundary of the NRA, please do your reviewer a favor and describe who owns the land where the cache is located. If it's private property or if the land manager has a permission policy, state that you've obtained permission. This makes the review go a LOT faster.

 

Or you could be like trackinthebox.

[+Woodlit]

trackinthebox? That account has been locked.

 

What is the exact relationship geocaching has with the Gap Recreation Area? I know it can't be that good if no new geocaches are allowed.

 

The GAP is a very popular (used to be) area for rock climbers. I wonder if I contacted them and explained that I was trying to combine rock climbing and caching. I wonder if they would go for that. I know the cache itself wouldn't be visited very often due to the extensive gear and knowledge that would be needed to retrieve it.

 

Does anybody know who I could ask this question to? Or should I just use the link at the bottom of the NPS.gov website, contact us.

 

What is the best way for finding out who is the land manager for a certain area?

[Keystone]

A few years ago, a geocacher hid two caches within the Delaware NRA. The hider received my standard form letter, saying that the caches could not be published unless proof of permission was provided. The owner did their work and replied that an NPS ranger at the NRA had given permission for the caches. So, I published them.

 

A few months later, someone higher up within the National Park Service got wind of what had happened. They wrote a nasty letter revoking the prior permission, and the caches were archived.

 

Based on this incident and others like it, I would be reluctant to publish a cache in a property managed by the NPS based solely on permission from a ranger located on site. I would insist that the owner go up a level or two within the bureaucracy, until the cache is authorized by someone who sits at a desk all day, miles away from where the cache is located.

 

Sad, isn't it?

[+Woodlit]

Unfortunately it is sad.

 

I'll have to try searching that site another time for contact information. Half the links I tried this evening gave me the "The page isn't redirecting properly" error. Anybody have an email address handy? I'm pretty sure the answer will be no, but I gotta try. I figure if they invite people to come and climb, maybe they will allow a climbing geocache. who knows?

[+trowel32]

I think the Kittatinny Trails map set (four map set) put out by the New York-New Jersey Trail Conference might be helpful. I'm pretty sure it has lats & longs and has boundaries of the NRA and the surrounding state forests (Worthington, Stokes, etc....) on a topo map background (I would have to look at mine to be sure). You should be able to find them (if you're lucky) at EMS or Campmor - or order directly from the NYNJTC.

[+Wayfinders]

I would NEVER trust a boundary line on a recreational GPSr, as well as any maps available online or in fold out pamphlets. Its just mapping, not geometry. Basically a pretty picture and no more. To me even the USC&GS quad sheets are a mere reference, and nothing more. I guess what I'm trying to say is if you place a cache on public property adjoining DNRA lands based on coordinates scaled from mapping you could be in for an uncomfortable experience should a ranger find it and claim it TO be on DNRA lands. You're only argument would be that you scaled it from mapping and that's not precision.....so.....you'd lose. Not trying to be a wise guy here, just offering some facts. And Woodlit.......could you place a cache I can log without jumping out of an airplane??? I get on the second rung of the ladder......and I want my Mommy

[+Woodlit]

I would NEVER trust a boundary line on a recreational GPSr, as well as any maps available online or in fold out pamphlets. Its just mapping, not geometry. Basically a pretty picture and no more. To me even the USC&GS quad sheets are a mere reference, and nothing more. I guess what I'm trying to say is if you place a cache on public property adjoining DNRA lands based on coordinates scaled from mapping you could be in for an uncomfortable experience should a ranger find it and claim it TO be on DNRA lands. You're only argument would be that you scaled it from mapping and that's not precision.....so.....you'd lose. Not trying to be a wise guy here, just offering some facts. And Woodlit.......could you place a cache I can log without jumping out of an airplane??? I get on the second rung of the ladder......and I want my Mommy

 

Wayfinders, newest one out (not hard at all actually).

Richard Mine Lookout

I've been working on some SUPER hard ones, but finding locations is difficult.

[+cerberus1]

I spoke with a now transfered super for the DWGNPS (Art North ) about this when we first started caching...

Talk about some acreage to hide toys !

Higher ups say we eventually create a "path" to cache, disturbing the natural ecosystem.

Yeah, sure. Now instead we have parking areas full of litter and summer "visitors" washing their kids dirty diapers at the beaches on the Delaware, causing all kinds of bacterial problems. I guess THAT doesn't disturb the ecosystem.

There ARE a few caches on park service property. Most are approved micros and virtuals.

Good luck on this one . I heard just a few weeks ago, they may close off the Indian Head to rope slingers, as climbers are "wearing away" the landmark.

If I spot more info later, I'll keep you posted.

[+Woodlit]

Wearing away? lol

 

Last I heard, most of the routed climbs weren't being used to much anymore. This makes them rough and dirty, therefore making people not want to use them as much, adding to the deterioration.

 

But that sure sounds like an official, "official".

[+edscott]

So I'm pretty sure there are no geocaches allowed in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area (right?), but I'm having a little bit of trouble finding the exact boundaries of the park.

 

The National Park Service website has some really good maps in PDF form, but they don't have any lat or long lines on them. Although they give a really good idea of the boundaries, some of the awesome hide locations are border line, and I can't tell for sure.

 

Then I tried Google and Mapquest maps. But for some odd reason, those two services show the boundaries to be different. hmm

 

My GPSr has maps of other parks (morris county parks), but of course not this one.

 

Has anybody run across a good set of maps for the park? One where the boundaries are very clear, and hopefully with latitude and longitude lines?

 

Thanks!

 

Edit: to many typos

 

Have you tried to access county tax maps? Check at the county court house. They are good to see who owns what. Overlay that on an aerial photo at the same scale and you got what you need.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Dunno about county tax maps, though in some parts of the country they seem to be useful. Not sure that we do that in Jersey. Though you could call the county clerk's office in Newton and see what they have to say.

Most of the rock climbing seems to be at Mount Tammany. That's in Worthington State Forest.

You might want to consider checking the Topozone topographic maps. They have the boundaries marked.

Worthington State Forest Boundary

Wayfinders: Airplane! Hadn't tought of that! Though I like the idea of a chainsaw...

[+briansnat]

I think the Kittatinny Trails map set (four map set) put out by the New York-New Jersey Trail Conference might be helpful. I'm pretty sure it has lats & longs and has boundaries of the NRA and the surrounding state forests (Worthington, Stokes, etc....) on a topo map background (I would have to look at mine to be sure). You should be able to find them (if you're lucky) at EMS or Campmor - or order directly from the NYNJTC.

 

The NYNJTC maps do show the boundries. They are usually quite accurate as a lot of work and research goes into them.

[avroair]

Or you could be like trackinthebox.

 

You little mixer KA!

 

Like Trowel and Brian said the NJ\NY Trail conference maps are useful, I have one spread out now and it looks by my (pure guessing) reckoning to be a good boundary marker.

[+HartClimbs]

Unfortunately it is sad.

 

I'll have to try searching that site another time for contact information. Half the links I tried this evening gave me the "The page isn't redirecting properly" error. Anybody have an email address handy? I'm pretty sure the answer will be no, but I gotta try. I figure if they invite people to come and climb, maybe they will allow a climbing geocache. who knows?

 

The climbing area might be within the Worthington State Forest area. I've climbed there before - both rock and ice (although the ice is in a different spot). Climbing is specifically permitted - although it's definitely not encouraged as the rock there is not as well formed as the nearby gunks.

 

There's plenty of loose rock (although not as bad as Green Pond) - and there's no large ledges to place a cache on. (For example, there was (or is) a geocache on the GT ledge on the climb called Arrow up in the gunks). I'd thought about placing a climbing cache, but then thought (after meeting a few dozen hard-core cachers) that I'd feel really bad if someone tried it without proper knowledge or training and ended up suffering from dirt poisoning (ie. ground fall).

 

That said, I thought all national park areas were off-limits for geocaches.

 

You might want to try the Worthington State Forest ranger station for more info on boundries and such.

[+Woodlit]

Its funny that you mention green pond. I did a bunch of walk arounds over there, but the lack of secure areas made me move to a different location.

 

Where about do you go over by green pond?

[+edscott]

Dunno about county tax maps, though in some parts of the country they seem to be useful. Not sure that we do that in Jersey. Though you could call the county clerk's office in Newton and see what they have to say.

Most of the rock climbing seems to be at Mount Tammany. That's in Worthington State Forest.

You might want to consider checking the Topozone topographic maps. They have the boundaries marked.

Worthington State Forest Boundary

Wayfinders: Airplane! Hadn't tought of that! Though I like the idea of a chainsaw...

 

I wouldn't trust Topozone (USGS maps) for boundaries. They might have been correct in 1948 or whatever but no guarantees on today. I live near a large state park in PA that grew by about 500-600 acres maybe 30-40 years ago. USGS has not picked up on that yet.

Edited February 22, 2007 by edscott