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Group effort, what's Fair what's Phoney


jimmyreno

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Last October I did a cache in CA, reading the logs, only one other person has found this cache by himself.

 

Everyone else dragoons some kid, they hoist him up to the top of a 10-12' high concrete wall and he goes

down the other side to get the cache and sign everyone's name in.

 

Here's one persons log:

"I ain't going there, but with the help of DoubleD, first time cacher, we were able to locate it "

 

This is typical.

 

If a person doesnt see the cache site, is it a fair find?

 

The cache is inside a concrete foundation left over from a cannery that was torn down.

No way to it except up and over the wall.

 

gcRM85

 

Another example, we have a local cacher who rushes to first to finds,

if he does't find it, he waits in his vehicle until someone else shows up

and suggests they make "a joint effort".

 

Of course the other person is the one who finds it.

He then claims a "joint effort" FTF

 

Yes, I know it's just a game, but most games have ethics,

with geocaching I'm sure everyone agrees that you should hide the cache like you found it

and not leave it out in the open.

 

Trade even or up, etc...

:P

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This is no different than a cache in a tree. You arrive on-site and send your kid up the tree. He brings the cache down and everyone logs the find. He then replaces the cache.

 

It is also no different, in my mind, than if I cached with a good puzzle-solver. He does the brain work and I get my smiley.

 

If the owner doesn't have an issue with this, why should I?

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As a cache owner you do have the right to be a hard-a** about logging requirements but in my opinion if they can sign the logbook I won't question how they managed to do it. More power to them if they get someone else to do all the work.

 

All they did was lower the difficulty level, that's all.

 

Now of course if you grabbed a cache and then brought it to an event I might have an issue.

 

I guess there's a line there somewhere. :P

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It is also no different, in my mind, than if I cached with a good puzzle-solver. He does the brain work and I get my smiley.

 

If the owner doesn't have an issue with this, why should I?

 

It is different because you actually went to the cache site.

 

The kid went to the cache site. Sbell111 sat on his butt giving encouragment. Which is exactly how I do those kinds of caches.

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It is also no different, in my mind, than if I cached with a good puzzle-solver. He does the brain work and I get my smiley.

 

If the owner doesn't have an issue with this, why should I?

 

It is different because you actually went to the cache site.

 

The kid went to the cache site. Sbell111 sat on his butt giving encouragment. Which is exactly how I do those kinds of caches.

BWAHAHAHA - classic.

 

I can neither confirm or deny the fact that I have ever done this.

 

actually, my conscious is clean, but I could see where age and ability could contribute to the above situations. If you go to the cache site and have some 'help' at the end, I think it's ok.

 

I just wouldn't blatantly post it in my logs.

Edited by Jhwk
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Another example, we have a local cacher who rushes to first to finds,

if he does't find it, he waits in his vehicle until someone else shows up

and suggests they make "a joint effort".

 

Of course the other person is the one who finds it.

He then claims a "joint effort" FTF

I love this technique. This is an awesome example of how parasitism arises in nature.

 

-eP

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I've been part of a group that went caching at an event. Once cache, was placed so that if you weren't careful, you could slide down the cliff into the water below (~20 feet). It was aptly named "Sounds like Duck". I was the one that spotted it and another guy shimmed out to it to retrieve it. He passed the log around and we all signed it. Classic group effort, I think.

 

I had another cache that my son and I went to do and would have been nearly impossible for him, but I grabbed it. I didn't let him sign. Partly because he could not have done it on his own, but partly because he wasn't really even helping to look for it and was more so playing in the creek. I think that if he'd been searching, I have let him sign.

 

I was looking for one cache - hoping for FTF - and wasn't finding it. Another cacher came along and we looked together. He ended up finding it. Although some one else had ended up getting FTF earlier, I would not have claimed half of the FTF credit.

 

That said, if you can't even get to the spot where the cache is hidden - or even see it - there's probably and argument to me made that you shouldn't claim credit.

Edited by DudleyGrunt
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Another example, we have a local cacher who rushes to first to finds,

if he does't find it, he waits in his vehicle until someone else shows up

and suggests they make "a joint effort".

 

Of course the other person is the one who finds it.

He then claims a "joint effort" FTF

I love this technique. This is an awesome example of how parasitism arises in nature.

 

-eP

A male lion sleeps for about twenty hours a day. He wakes to eat whatever the female lions killed, frighten away any encroaching male lions, and to -ummm- make little lions.
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I guess my 4 year old should open an account for himself - I have lifted him up to retrieve 7 - 8 caches in the last year alone. I sign the log and he places it back. Our combined height is much taller. I have no problem with group signing if only 1 grabs it and hands to others to sign. To a point. Don't want it brought back a mile or two for sigs.

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This is no different than a cache in a tree. You arrive on-site and send your kid up the tree. He brings the cache down and everyone logs the find. He then replaces the cache.

 

I usually end up playing the "kid". I get to swim the nasty river, swim out to the island, climb the tree, cross the tree, hang over the edge, go over the edge, etc. The biggest challenge doing this is dealing with an SO who is hysterical about the challenge, but wants the smiley.

 

-WR

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I have never ever considered not taking credit for a find that I myself didn't find, but was present and actively searching for. Of course, my "username" represents about 4 people and it's usually one of us 4 who finds it, but still even if it's not I have no qualms whatsoever in taking the smiley.

 

Now, we've never come across a cache that I couldn't get to, so perhaps I just haven't had that experience yet.

Edited by Retcon
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A male lion sleeps for about twenty hours a day. He wakes to eat whatever the female lions killed, frighten away any encroaching male lions, and to -ummm- make little lions.

In this particular case, I would send the kid in to retrieve the cache from underneath the sleeping lion while I remained safely behind in the Jeep. But the kid would have to bring me the log book because my ethics wouldn't allow me to claim the find unless I personally signed the log.

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I guess my 4 year old

- I have lifted him up to retrieve 7 - 8 caches in the last year alone. I sign the log and he places it back. Our combined height is much taller. I have no problem with group signing if only 1 grabs it and hands to others to sign. To a point. Don't want it brought back a mile or two for sigs.

 

Not comparable, you can see the cache and stand at the coords,

in the example I gave,

the adults have no clue as to what the cache site looks like. :(

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Here's one persons log:

"I ain't going there, but with the help of DoubleD, first time cacher, we were able to locate it "

 

This is typical.

 

If a person doesnt see the cache site, is it a fair find?

 

I like the idea of people working together to achieve something. That's the type of cacher I want to meet while out geocaching.

 

They did the cache together, so everybody should be allowed to log it!

 

GermanSailor

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I've got one that when I placed it, I envisioned a father (or mother) hoisting his child on his shoulders to retrieve. I don't see the problem with a group effort.

 

I have the opposite problem with caching with my family. When I can't quite get to a location, I try guiding them where I think it is. 9 times out of 10 though, I wind up having to get my lazy butt to the location and look myself. :(

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Here's one persons log:

"I ain't going there, but with the help of DoubleD, first time cacher, we were able to locate it "

 

This is typical.

 

If a person doesnt see the cache site, is it a fair find?

 

I like the idea of people working together to achieve something. That's the type of cacher I want to meet while out geocaching.

 

They did the cache together, so everybody should be allowed to log it!

GermanSailor

 

Something people are missing here is that the person hoisted over the wall is ALWAYS A CHILD,

the adults keep their feet safely on the ground.

These children usually did not have caching experience prior to this cache. :(

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There have been a few times that I wish i had a small kid with me to aid in the retrieval of a cache. But, i didn't so i had to get em the old fashioned way. As a cache owner you have to expect this sort of thing unless you explain certain limitations or restrictions or whatever in the cach page with a note saying logs will be deleted under certain formentioned circumstances. Did anything that I just said make any sense??? :(

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If I don't make the climb, I don't sign the line.

 

If I'm part of a team and an active participate in the hunt, but I'm not the one who actually finds the cache, I will still log the find. My one exception is if there is task that needs to be performed to retreive the cache like swimming, wading, climbing or crawling through a cave or tunnel. If I don't compete that task, I just log a note. I would feel cheesy standing there and letting someone else do the tough stuff, then hand me the log to sign.

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Something people are missing here is that the person hoisted over the wall is ALWAYS A CHILD, the adults keep their feet safely on the ground.

Isn't that what kids are good for? I mean they're good at scrambling through bushes, small enough for small holes, generally don't have a preconceived fear of bugs so they put their hands in small holes, they climb like monkeys, they're naturally built close to the ground to look under stuff, they make a good prop to be in playgrounds, the list goes on and on. It seems like a hobby has finally come along that fits these little ones like a glove--and no "Little League Parent Syndrome." (Yet.)

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I think this is not an issue really. It is only a personal level of what is ethical and no two people are the same. I think this issue has to do with weather one "earned" the cache as much as another. Look at this exzample:

 

Joe average makes 100 widgets at his job and worked steady all day

Joe Super worker makes 300 widgets at the same job and worked steady all day.

 

should joe average be fired? I say no because they both put in their time and effort and did what they thought was correct and good.

 

Personally I don't feel this thread has anything to do with ethics. I think we should not worry too much how another caches or what means they use. It is the fun factor that is important and I think it is great families get the kids involved or several people go together.

 

Oh I see a cache in the tree.... one person may think you have to climb the tree. Another may think it is ok to use a stick. Niether is wrong in my opinion

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It's a game! I get so much more pleasure out of meeting other geocachers than actually finding caches. The social aspect of this game is more impotant than the number of caches you find. Team efforts and phone-a-friend will always be a part of the game. Koikeeper often needs me to get to the cache so we can log it as she is physically unable to get to some of them. Some of my favorite caches have been group night cache outtings (to find actual night caches .... not to do caches at night). It is great fun to see the city folkes reactions to some of the night creatures! :ph34r: ImpalaBob

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I've retrieved caches while standing on a ladder. I've retrieved caches while standing on the roof of my Jeep. How is retrieving a cache while standing on someone else's shoulders any different?

 

I've retrieved caches using a long stick. I've retrieved caches by fastening a loop of rope and trying to snag the container. How is retrieving a cache by hoisting your six-year-old into a tight spot any different?

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To me this sounds fair. And it doesn't sound like parasitism at all. All the kid has to do for another cookie is hold his services ransom. Or, years down the road, if mom and dad won't lend the car, tell them he never 'really' signed their name in the log. That'll fix em.

 

- T of TandS

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It's a game! I get so much more pleasure out of meeting other geocachers than actually finding caches. The social aspect of this game is more impotant than the number of caches you find. Team efforts and phone-a-friend will always be a part of the game. Koikeeper often needs me to get to the cache so we can log it as she is physically unable to get to some of them. Some of my favorite caches have been group night cache outtings (to find actual night caches .... not to do caches at night). It is great fun to see the city folkes reactions to some of the night creatures! :unsure: ImpalaBob

 

Phone-a-friend is often abused IMHO as local cachers who know each other make a desultory effort to find a hide, then immediately dial the cache owner and learn exactly where it is so they can crow about FTF. Also, caching at night, while sometimes fun and challenging, can not infrequently result in the "city folks" calling 911 when they spot flashlights bobbing around on the outskirts of their property line.

Edited by geckoboy49
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I've retrieved caches while standing on a ladder. I've retrieved caches while standing on the roof of my Jeep. How is retrieving a cache while standing on someone else's shoulders any different?

 

I've retrieved caches using a long stick. I've retrieved caches by fastening a loop of rope and trying to snag the container. How is retrieving a cache by hoisting your six-year-old into a tight spot any different?

 

Good point. My tot is a TOTT.

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