Where does geo-caching rate among ethical sports?

February 13, 2007

---I have been a mainsteam sports enthusiest all my life. One thing that has turned me off to many sports is the unethical behavior of many sport stars in recent years. The sancity of many sports has been tarnished, if not ruined, by those that play outside the lines (Pro baseball and basketball come to mind)...

---On the flip side golf has always been a sport of high moral standards. Players would rather lose than to cheat, and often times turn themselves in over minor infractions. This is how I see geo-caching in my limited time participating in this sport. I was wondering how you all view the "state of the game"? Do you think that the average player has above average honor and ethics when abidding by the rules? Most importantly, can the game remain respectable? Or will it be ruined by those that have low standards...

6.7k · February 13, 2007

Unlike the sports you mention we have no rules, just a few flexible guidelines that allow us to list caches, and that on only one site - Groundspeak does not own or control the game, many folks tend to forget that.

The game is played quite differently by every player - quite unlike formalized sports.

In the absence of rules we have some community standards, but they are not formal nor codified nor even agreed upon in any given area.

Your questions cannot pertain to an unwritten flexible 'play it your way' endeavor sich as geocaching.

What you mostly see touted as 'rules' and 'ethics' is someone trying to enforce their control over others.

February 13, 2007

I think that golf and geocaching are similar in that they are individual (Okay, many people geocache in groups, but still) sports with a moderately high cost of entry (Clubs are $100 for a cheap set, and each game costs at least $7 on a cheap course. GPSs are $100 for a cheap one and $200 or more for what many consider the bare minimum).

Add the lack of a reason to cheat, and I'd say geocaching's in no real threat of a steroids epidemic or people logging that they found caches that they didn't really find :rolleyes:

February 13, 2007

...or people logging that they found caches that they didn't really find

:lol: :rolleyes:

This could get interesting... :blink:

Happy Caching!

Jeff

February 13, 2007

I don't want this to turn into a flaming war or anything. I was merely complimenting the geocaching community for being so aboveboards, and in my opinion, doing a great job of policing themselves. All and all these are very admirable qualities for this day and age. I'm just curious if the general opinion is that it will remain this way...

February 13, 2007

ROFL. I wasn't trying to start anything. While I've noticed smiley faces next to logs that say they didn't find the cache, I never really thought it was an epidemic. I don't pay attention to other people's logs that much except for the occasional hint if I've used up all my brain juice, or to see if perhaps the cache is possibly missing. I'm not in it to *win* or anything, but more to get outside and walk around and enjoy the outdoors.

There's anohter thing geocaching shares with golf. The main purpose isn't to win; it's to be outside.

38.2k · February 13, 2007

On the flip side golf has always been a sport of high moral standards. Players would rather lose than to cheat, and often times turn themselves in over minor infractions. This is how I see geo-caching in my limited time participating in this sport. I was wondering how you all view the "state of the game"?

I do see geocaching as similar to golf. As a sometime golfer I've often witnessed what I felt were less than ethical practices that appeared to be accepted by many golfers. Things like mulligans, nudging the ball for a better lay, "gimme putts" where people pick up the ball rather than finishing the putt and capping the score on holes (for example taking no more than a 10 on a hole, or stoppng after 4 putt attempts).

Same thing with geocaching. Armchair logging of virtuals, logging retirement cards, pocket caches, phony finds, muti logging events, etc... all practices that have nothing whatsoever to do with using a GPS to find an object. Are they unethical? I don't know, but they are certainly not playing the same game that I am.

Edited February 13, 2007 by briansnat

February 13, 2007

There's anohter thing geocaching shares with golf. The main purpose isn't to win; it's to be outside.

another thing in common... even the most experienced golfer can still get his balls caught in the rough once in awhile. :rolleyes:

38.2k · February 13, 2007

I don't want this to turn into a flaming war or anything. I was merely complimenting the geocaching community for being so aboveboards, and in my opinion, doing a great job of policing themselves. All and all these are very admirable qualities for this day and age. I'm just curious if the general opinion is that it will remain this way...

Don't take this in a bad way, but obviously you haven't been around long. These forums see practically weekly debates over what some people feel are questionable practices.

February 13, 2007

I don't think I would consider Geocaching a "sport".

February 13, 2007

I don't think I would consider Geocaching a "sport".

Not to quote the NASCAR commercial, but I agree. It's a way of life.

2.2k · February 13, 2007

I don't think I would consider Geocaching a "sport".

I'm beginning to agree... Although, certain aspects of geocaching could be considered sports. For instance, going for FTF. There are winners and losers. Everyone plays by the same rules (fairly simple rules). First one there wins. All these things very clearly make it a sport. But as a whole, geocaching is more of a hobby/game.

(Please don't look up previous posts of mine on this subject. I'm a flip-flopper)

38.2k · February 13, 2007

I don't think I would consider Geocaching a "sport".

You don't but the dictionary does.

February 13, 2007

You don't but the dictionary does.

Well, whoever put it in there is wrong. This is nothing but a game. A very fun game I might add.

February 13, 2007

I don't think I would consider Geocaching a "sport".

It's not just a sport, it's a RASH! :rolleyes: (RASH = Recreation/Addiction/Sport/Hobby)

Happy Caching!

Jeff

9.1k · February 13, 2007

When briansnat earns the same money for finding 18 terrain 3 caches covered with snow as Phil Mickelson makes for finding 18 holes in the middle of a field that have flags in them, then there will be equality among our sports.

February 13, 2007

I don't think I would consider Geocaching a "sport".

I don't think so either.

And it definitely is not a "competitive" sport. So I don't understand why people get excited at all about the numbers of other people. Probably they are just bored.

GermanSailor

February 13, 2007

When briansnat earns the same money for finding 18 terrain 3 caches covered with snow as Phil Mickelson makes for finding 18 holes in the middle of a field that have flags in them, then there will be equality among our sports.

:rolleyes: Nicely put.

I just hope the day doesn't come when there are Cachers out there on steroids for the run up a hill to get a FTF.

Edited February 13, 2007 by peachs

22k · February 13, 2007

Do you think that the average player has above average honor and ethics when abidding by the rules?

Not sure about the rules part but based on my experience a huge majority of cachers are honest, decent, and darn-right friendly people.

9.3k · February 13, 2007

In my opinion, as with some others, Geocaching is not a sport. The term "Sport" always invokes in me images of competition and rigid rules, neither of which are present here, unless some individual chooses to compete. Of course, my personal definition of "Sport" and Webster's might vary quite a bit. Golf, in the context of a few friends hitting a few holes together, could be a fairly close analogy, but even in this relaxed atmosphere golf has rules, whereas all we have are guidelines.

Then again, I don't consider football, baseball, basketball or NASCAR to be sports. Rugby & hockey qualify as sports in my twisted version of reality, as does live steel sword play. Maybe if the football players took off all those pounds of protective padding they wear, maybe I could call it a sport. :rolleyes:

7.2k · February 13, 2007

I think most ball players are generally upstanding folks just like geocachers--just like folks in general.

However, there have been a few parallels in the pastimes in regards to "getting ahead." The OP asked about ethics, not rules. Bans against certain performance enhancing drugs aren't in play because it goes against the core rules of the game. Some of these rules are for the protection of the players against the team owners--sometimes protection from themselves. Some rules are in place because ethics was sketchy and players took advantage. In geocaching, it's the same thing.

One "for instance" comes from last May when a group of cachers known for breaking record finds in a single day got creative and decided it was acceptable to sign the outside of the container in order to break the record. Few thought that was acceptable. There was no rules against it, but that doesn't mean it is right.

Sorry, but I have to vote with geocaching, just like any other pastime, has a few that push the bounds of ethical behavior--if not leap right over it.

February 13, 2007

I don't see it as a sport either but it is a game. I think the cross section of players is high on ethics. I know some see exceptions but it really is an individual game and you are really playing yourself at your own speed and level as far as terrain or types of caches. I can see some competition among a few or maybe local groups which is good and fine. This game was started with the honor system and In my Opinion the more rules put in the less of a game it becomes and moe of a sport. Guidlines are good but I think rules would change it as we know it now.

February 13, 2007

You don't but the dictionary does.

Well, whoever put it in there is wrong. This is nothing but a game. A very fun game I might add.

What is baseball, basketball, football, are just games and usually with poor role models. There is a level of physical activitie to Geocaching. Maybe its comparable to speed walking which is an Olymic event. Geocaching is played at all levels. Some climb mountians or hike for miles and others take casual walks from the car to the lamp post. No different from Professional Hockey verses a Gentlemans division.

And living across from a golf course i can tell you that Really bad golfers ( attested to by the 2 gallons of golf ball i get off my front lawn each year)can be very competitive.

An ethical standard is set by the majority, and a percieved standard whether written or just implied is as binding on the majority as if it was written in a rule book.

Guidelines are rules. Just try to get a cache published that does not meet the guidelines. The only difference is we have referees in the form of cache reviewers that will bend the rules on occasion.

The forums are actually the moral compass of this sport. Here everyone has a chance to give an opionon or state there beliefs, but even in the forums there are rules and people have lost fourm access for breaking the rules the Priest sorry moderators establish.

Edited February 13, 2007 by stormcloud

6.5k · February 13, 2007

When briansnat earns the same money for finding 18 terrain 3 caches covered with snow as Phil Mickelson makes for finding 18 holes in the middle of a field that have flags in them, then there will be equality among our sports.

Nicely put.

I just hope the day doesn't come when there are Cachers out there on steroids for the run up a hill to get a FTF.

Actually Brian does get the same pay for his finds as Joe Averagegolfer who chooses to go out and play his local muni course in the snow. :lol:

Nope, I don't think steroids or performance enhancing drugs will become part of this sport. We're more likely to be sponsored by Starbucks, Krispy Kreme, and Cracker Barrel. :blink:

February 13, 2007

People that try to "win" at geocaching inevitably become losers that "cheat".

20.7k · February 13, 2007

You know, when I saw this thread, I assumed that the OP would have the premise that Geocachers are horrible and every one else would give a positive spin. Kind of like those environmental troll threads. Color me surprised when I realized that it was pretty much the reverse of what I expected.

3.1k · February 13, 2007

You don't but the dictionary does.

Well, whoever put it in there is wrong. This is nothing but a game. A very fun game I might add.

I recently heard it argued that for something to be a "sport", it has to involve defense. I thought that was a pretty good definition, though certainly many would not, as it rules out hunting, fishing, golf, biking, swimming, gymnastics, track and field, NASCAR, skiing, etc etc. For some reason, people often get defensive when told their favorite activity isn't a sport (hmm, "defensive"....does that mean arguing about sports is itself a sport?)

1.6k · February 13, 2007

If they cheat, they are only cheating themselves. I have never really gotten into the whole "cheaters ruin geocaching" thing.

For the most part, the cachers I have met are older, imaginative, cheerful, intelligent and well educated, outgoing, and love the hunt in the great outdoors.

I think the 'sport' continues to grow because, in the end, it is fun and the people are friendly and helpful.

Now GET A JOB N00b!

24.7k · February 13, 2007

You don't but the dictionary does.

Well, whoever put it in there is wrong. This is nothing but a game. A very fun game I might add.

Never, ever, under any circumstance call geocaching a game. It's a Recreational, Activity, Sport, Hobby (RASH) but it's not a game.

To attach the word "Game" to geocaching removes it's credibility in any arena where it's being called in questions.

It doesn’t hurt that it really isn’t a game.

On topic. Overall I think geocachers have good ethics. Somewhere though there are fen dwelling bottom feeders among us who's vile habits profane and insult our generally good nature. I'm not sure if the fen dwellers actually admit to being cachers.

February 13, 2007

Never, ever, under any circumstance call geocaching a game. It's a Recreational, Activity, Sport, Hobby (RASH) but it's not a game.

Sorry but its nothing more then a game. I'll compromise and call it a game/hobby but its anything but a sport.

24.7k · February 13, 2007

Never, ever, under any circumstance call geocaching a game. It's a Recreational, Activity, Sport, Hobby (RASH) but it's not a game.

Sorry but its nothing more then a game....

If you ever testify before a state legislature who has introduced a bill to ban geocaching you will know why this is not a game, why it should not be called a game, and what a game really means to people in power.

You can debate until you are blue in the face about if it's a sport vs. hobby vs. activity, or recreational persuit (which is why RASH came along) but trust me when I say that nobody will ever want to have to fight the perception that this is a stupid silly game when people are trying to shut it down just to make a valid point. This did come to pass, it will happen again. Hopefully we will be wiser the next time around.

February 13, 2007

If you ever testify before a state legislature who has introduced a bill to ban geocaching you will know why this is not a game, why it should not be called a game, and what a game really means to people in power.

You can debate until you are blue in the face about if it's a sport vs. hobby vs. activity, or recreational persuit (which is why RASH came along) but trust me when I say that nobody will ever want to have to fight the perception that this is a stupid silly game when people are trying to shut it down just to make a valid point. This did come to pass, it will happen again. Hopefully we will be wiser the next time around.

And you can say that its not a game until you're blue in the face but the fact is that its still a game and there is nothing that will change that.

3.1k · February 13, 2007

If you ever testify before a state legislature who has introduced a bill to ban geocaching you will know why this is not a game, why it should not be called a game, and what a game really means to people in power.

You can debate until you are blue in the face about if it's a sport vs. hobby vs. activity, or recreational persuit (which is why RASH came along) but trust me when I say that nobody will ever want to have to fight the perception that this is a stupid silly game when people are trying to shut it down just to make a valid point. This did come to pass, it will happen again. Hopefully we will be wiser the next time around.

And you can say that its not a game until you're blue in the face but the fact is that its still a game and there is nothing that will change that.

I tend not to call it a sport, but a game can be won or lost. Even solitary games, like....Solitaire. Now, whether a DNF is a "loss" is a matter of opinion, but I think of it like fishing -- you don't lose at fishing if you didn't catch anything.

February 13, 2007

If I'm in front of congress arguing that geocaching not be made illegal, the last thing I'm going to call it is a rash.

3.2k · February 13, 2007

My first line of thought was that the difference is athletic ability. But then I would have to make an exception for baseball and hockey.

This is a hobby, maybe even a game. It is nothing more than bird watching, coin collecting, stamp collecting, antiquing, site-seeing, beer can collecting, etc.

"DIRECT TV PAY PER VIEW EVENT! Extreme Cast Iron! $39.95. Watch the best shoppers in the nation as they compete to be the first to obtain the ever elusive Griswold Waffle Iron for less than the world record of $79.83"

It's nothing more than a very interesting hobby.

7.2k · February 13, 2007

If I'm in front of congress arguing that geocaching not be made illegal, the last thing I'm going to call it is a rash.

No, but I certainly will not call it a game or sport. It's not pretty when it is tossed right back into your face.

It's a hobby or a pastime. The core activity of geocaching as it is pursued outside this website is more like hiking, sightseeing, and birdwatching. I even try to stay away from scavenger hunt as that is a game.

The more you can move caching away from any sort of competitive nature the better it will be for the hobby, especially in the public's eyes.

18.9k · February 13, 2007

While there are a few "bad apples" in the bunch. For the most part, I think Geocachers are a great group of people. I would be glad to share a soda with any of you.

February 13, 2007

If I'm in front of congress arguing that geocaching not be made illegal, the last thing I'm going to call it is a rash.

No, but I certainly will not call it a game or sport.

I agree, I just found that funny. I'd call it a Hobby too before anything else, and stress the health benefits and how we frequently take trash out with us. Except in that state where it's illegal to do so (Nebraska?) I'd never pick up coke bottles off the side of the road there. I'm too good a boy for that.

24.7k · February 13, 2007

If you ever testify before a state legislature who has introduced a bill to ban geocaching you will know why this is not a game, why it should not be called a game, and what a game really means to people in power.

You can debate until you are blue in the face about if it's a sport vs. hobby vs. activity, or recreational persuit (which is why RASH came along) but trust me when I say that nobody will ever want to have to fight the perception that this is a stupid silly game when people are trying to shut it down just to make a valid point. This did come to pass, it will happen again. Hopefully we will be wiser the next time around.

And you can say that its not a game until you're blue in the face but the fact is that its still a game and there is nothing that will change that.

Games end, then you start over. Some sports are games in addition to being sports. Caching is not a game in the real sence. It's also not a game in the political sence. Calling it a game is ignorant in that it does cause harm. Calling it a game when you know what kind of harm it can cause is not wise.

You have a choice to make. I hope others who read this make the right one.

24.7k · February 13, 2007

If I'm in front of congress arguing that geocaching not be made illegal, the last thing I'm going to call it is a rash.

I wouldn't either. However if asked I can explain RASH and do a fairly good job of it, plus inject a little humor and play on key words that congress has shown they like. Recreation, Family Activies & Family Involvement in a mutual Hobby's being a few of them. (All true which helps).

Game presses the wrong buttons and does it in a way that can't be easily overcome.

February 13, 2007

Games end, then you start over. Some sports are games in addition to being sports. Caching is not a game in the real sence. It's also not a game in the political sence. Calling it a game is ignorant in that it does cause harm. Calling it a game when you know what kind of harm it can cause is not wise.

You have a choice to make. I hope others who read this make the right one.

Really where are you trying to go with this? Its not like the world is trying to shut down geocaching. You call it a sport (a sport consists of games) I call it a game/hobby, who REALLY cares... Thinking that geocaching is going to be banned because people call it a game is whats truly ignorant.

24.7k · February 13, 2007

Games end, then you start over. Some sports are games in addition to being sports. Caching is not a game in the real sence. It's also not a game in the political sence. Calling it a game is ignorant in that it does cause harm. Calling it a game when you know what kind of harm it can cause is not wise.

You have a choice to make. I hope others who read this make the right one.

Really where are you trying to go with this? Its not like the world is trying to shut down geocaching. You call it a sport (a sport consists of games) I call it a game/hobby, who REALLY cares... Thinking that geocaching is going to be banned because people call it a game is whats truly ignorant.

It appears that I know of more caching history where these things did come into play. Stupid as it sounds, it was important. You don't post like you have that knowledge. When you have better information I doubt you would say what you just said. However if you do look into this and learn about the trial by fire that happened in South Carolina and what they went through and then you still wish to call me ignorant and debate the point, great. Send me a PM and I'll be happy to counterpoint you in that thread.

Key words for a forum search if you are inclined. South Carolina + Cemetary. If you look up the representatives name you will get a lot more hits as well.

Edit: Just looked you have been around long enough. You must of missed that storm.

Edited February 13, 2007 by Renegade Knight

7.2k · February 13, 2007

You must of missed that storm.

He had to have missed it to have made that statement.

22k · February 13, 2007

I've been wondering, what exactly is an 'ethical' sport anyway. Chess? Boxing?

Are they simply opposite non-ethical sports? (dog fighting, junkie knife fights)

Is it some sort of Zen Buddhist death match?

18.9k · February 13, 2007

....Key words for a forum search if you are inclined. South Carolina + Cemetary. If you look up the representatives name you will get a lot more hits as well.

Edit: Just looked you have been around long enough. You must of missed that storm.

After that little mess - I would NEVER call it a sport.

2.2k · February 13, 2007

You must of missed that storm.

He had to have missed it to have made that statement.

Boy, you guys are coming across with a real elitist attitude.

February 13, 2007

It appears that I know of more caching history where these things did come into play. Stupid as it sounds, it was important. You don't post like you have that knowledge. When you have better information I doubt you would say what you just said. However if you do look into this and learn about the trial by fire that happened in South Carolina and what they went through and then you still wish to call me ignorant and debate the point, great. Send me a PM and I'll be happy to counterpoint you in that thread.

Key words for a forum search if you are inclined. South Carolina + Cemetary. If you look up the representatives name you will get a lot more hits as well.

Edit: Just looked you have been around long enough. You must of missed that storm.

No I didn't miss any of that and it had NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS BEING CALLED A GAME OR A SPORT. No where in that bill does it mention sport, game or hobby... Now how about you tell the story of why the state wanted to ban geocaching/letterboxing in cemetery's, historical sites and archeologicial sites. Hmm could it be that cachers were not following the rules of the cemetery/historical site. I sure don't think they wanted it banned because someone called it a game...

Edited February 13, 2007 by Team Dubbin

38.2k · February 13, 2007

Games end, then you start over. Some sports are games in addition to being sports. Caching is not a game in the real sence. It's also not a game in the political sence. Calling it a game is ignorant in that it does cause harm. Calling it a game when you know what kind of harm it can cause is not wise.

You have a choice to make. I hope others who read this make the right one.

Really where are you trying to go with this? Its not like the world is trying to shut down geocaching. You call it a sport (a sport consists of games) I call it a game/hobby, who REALLY cares... Thinking that geocaching is going to be banned because people call it a game is whats truly ignorant.

The term game connotes a level of frivolousness that doesn't accompany terms like sport, hobby or pastime. When some South Carolina legislators were looking to ban geocaching in many places they focused on the term game and used it to great effect to try to win others to their side. In the end their law failed to pass, but it wasn't looking good there for a while.

22k · February 13, 2007

'briansnat' date='Feb 13 2007, 05:15 PM' post='2713198']

The term game connotes a level of frivolousness that doesn't accompany terms like sport, hobby or pastime. When some South Carolina legislators were looking to ban geocaching in many places they focused on the term game and used it to great effect to try to win others to their side. In the end their law failed to pass, but it wasn't looking good there for a while.

It's a game. Just like the game of basketball, or baseball, or bowling. And they are sports.

1 a : a source of diversion : RECREATION b : sexual play c (1) : physical activity engaged in for pleasure (2) : a particular activity (as an athletic game) so engaged in.

Semantics shouldn't be the deciding factor of a valid and legal activity.

Isn't that the issue after all- Is it legal?

Edited February 13, 2007 by BlueDeuce

7.2k · February 13, 2007

When dealing with the public and authorities, semantics is everything.

Once "game" got hooked in the discussion, it was hard to pull it away from the direction it was going.

Geocaching is nothing like baseball, basketball, or bowling.

Arguing otherwise only makes it harder to keep your hobby a viable one in the eyes who can really make it rough on us.

Where does geo-caching rate among ethical sports?

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