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Demon360

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Cops with nothing better to do decided that a cache I placed was causing "too much" suspious activity.

:D:D:D

???

 

WTF? Too much? It was an ALTOIDS TIN!

 

They confiscated it and I was told I couldnt have it back..

 

This is what we get when we have a POLICE STATE!

 

Legal gangs of uniformed people with badges that allow the POWER to got their heads...

 

What CRAP...

Ill watch for the terror alert on the 11 pm news... :D:huh:

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The whole point is that even when this security guard couldn't figure out what he had found he asked others.

No one in the whole story ever pushed the panic button. In the end the cache was returned to the hiding spot.

I find it a nice change from the normal responses we see.

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Cops with nothing better to do decided that a cache I placed was causing "too much" suspious activity.

:huh::D:D

???

 

WTF? Too much? It was an ALTOIDS TIN!

 

They confiscated it and I was told I couldnt have it back..

 

This is what we get when we have a POLICE STATE!

 

Legal gangs of uniformed people with badges that allow the POWER to got their heads...

 

What CRAP...

Ill watch for the terror alert on the 11 pm news... :D:D

 

Let me guess, you don't like cops do you? :D

 

A Police State because they took your altoid tins? Give me a friggin break. No offence, but your post makes you sound like a teenager, or a really ignorant person.

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you sound like a teenager, or a really ignorant person.

 

There's a difference??? :huh:

 

On a serious side, it is nice to see that the security guard acted reasonably...as far as the police taking your cache, where was it that it was suspicious? Dare I say that they may have had a legitimate beef?

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you sound like a teenager, or a really ignorant person.

 

There's a difference??? :huh:

 

On a serious side, it is nice to see that the security guard acted reasonably...as far as the police taking your cache, where was it that it was suspicious? Dare I say that they may have had a legitimate beef?

Is that a resturant like Legal Seafood in Boston???? Or was it duct taped to a steer??

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Cops with nothing better to do decided that a cache I placed was causing "too much" suspious activity.

Since you either know how to spell "cache", or you know how to utilize a spellcheck program, I'm assuming you must be bright enough to go out in public without an escort. With that in mind, do you honestly believe cops have nothing better to do than steal what is often considered the third crappiest container in the world for geocaching? Could it be they had a reason for their actions that you don't wish to share with us?

 

This is what we get when we have a POLICE STATE!

Obviously you've never lived in a police state. Rather than get your Pampers in a wad, buy a plane ticket and try one on for size. If, after having experienced such a lifestyle, you still want to compare New Hampshire with some fascist government, I'll gladly listen to you. Until then, you're just making noise. While I have no particular love for any state in which it snows more than once a decade, I have lived in a police state, and I'll take New Hampshire any day.

 

What CRAP...

Spoken like a true genius. :laughing:

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A police state indeed!

 

A police state would have many of the following characteristics:

  • government monitoring of Internet connections
  • suspicious individuals being detained without counsel or charges
  • government monitoring of library records
  • searches without court warrents

Don't worry about your altoids tins. Worry about something real.

 

Those would never happen in the USA!

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If you go back and read the OP, this ought to have been a positive thread. It's a great story about a security guard who showed some common sense, and a good lesson on the value of "stash notes," even in micro caches.

 

Let's get the discussion pointed back towards the original topic, OK? Thanks.

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A police state indeed!

 

A police state would have many of the following characteristics:

  • government monitoring of Internet connections
  • suspicious individuals being detained without counsel or charges
  • government monitoring of library records
  • searches without court warrents

Don't worry about your altoids tins. Worry about something real.

 

Those would never happen in the USA!

 

??? It is like that in France and you telling me it is not normal ? :laughing:

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If you go back and read the OP, this ought to have been a positive thread. It's a great story about a security guard who showed some common sense, and a good lesson on the value of "stash notes," even in micro caches.

 

Absolutely! This one definitely ended on a positive note. The cache was discovered, turned over to authorities and even returned to its hiding place. Granted, had the security guard seen the web site at the top of the sheet, the police involvement probably could have been avoided, but I think that was even for the better of the situtation, considering the overall outcome of it.

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Each local caching group, should start a law enforcement themed TB with the intent of making rounds to every police station and sheriff department and taking pictures with officers at their HQ. When a geocacher moves the travel bug, they can also educate the authorities on the sport (calling it a sport is still funny to me, I also play golf another non-sport). This way law enforcement agencies will learn more, and may be less prejudiced about people lurking in alleyways, carrying munitions cans or walking around grave yards at odd times.

 

It appears to me, geocachers would be a valuable resource in aiding law enforcement in finding children lost in the wilderness or finding meth labs or marijuana crops. Imagine if the police invited your local cache crew to walk from one side of the woods to the other looking for a lost child or some type of contraband. Unlike normal people (yes walking .75 miles through mud, ticks and lime disease, to find McDonald toy filled ammo cans, hidden in the hallows of trees is not normal), cachers could use coordinates to organize the search and cover the area more effectively.

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Each local caching group, should start a law enforcement themed TB with the intent of making rounds to every police station and sheriff department and taking pictures with officers at their HQ.

 

Another option might be for the local groups to get in contact with the local police departments with some sort of presentation about what geocaching is (if they're interested) and what they might see, and, in addition, maybe get some feedback from them about what they would deem unacceptable hides and/or practices or areas to avoid placing caches. Perhaps this would help develop a better relationship between them and our hobby.

 

I've read many times that there were bulletins that went thru the law enforcement community about geocaching, but how long ago was that? I don't know about other police forces are like in other parts of the country, but the ones around here are getting new recruits all the time. Maybe the info about geocaching isn't getting passed on to them until a confrontation occurs.

 

I was thinking that maybe having an event to which local law enforcement officers could be invited and maybe take them out to find some caches so they could see what it's all about. Maybe I just do too much thinking :laughing: Just trying to think of ways to give geocaching a good reputation and avoid problems. I'll shut up now.

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Cops with nothing better to do decided that a cache I placed was causing "too much" suspious activity.

:laughing::laughing:B)

???

 

WTF? Too much? It was an ALTOIDS TIN!

 

They confiscated it and I was told I couldnt have it back..

 

This is what we get when we have a POLICE STATE!

 

Legal gangs of uniformed people with badges that allow the POWER to got their heads...

 

What CRAP...

Ill watch for the terror alert on the 11 pm news... B)B)

 

I really don't want to pile on. :D But come on now, Shirley you can't be serious. An Altoids tin at a commercial shopping center? And there's a better chance I'll be struck by lightning as I type this, then there is that you had permission to place it there on private property.

 

It looks like the original situation referenced in this thread turned out pretty good. Nice to see.

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A police state indeed!

 

A police state would have many of the following characteristics:

  • government monitoring of Internet connections
  • suspicious individuals being detained without counsel or charges
  • government monitoring of library records
  • searches without court warrents

Don't worry about your altoids tins. Worry about something real.

 

Those would never happen in the USA!

 

??? It is like that in France and you telling me it is not normal ? :laughing:

 

Ummm... I think he was being facetious as that happens here in the US--"The Land of the Supposed Free." Thankfully, though, we have mechanisms built into the Constitution that will pave the way to have those freedoms returned. One of the most--heart-warming, I guess--is the library groups fighting the "requests" of patron records. I believe I read somewhere that some libraries are destroying records or no longer keeping them simply to keep what we read out of the hands of Big Brother.

 

Yes, it's heartening, as well, for some folks to have a level head and not think everything is dangerous and everyone is out to harm them. The article was a positive, IMHO.

Edited by CoyoteRed
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Too bad they don't always go that way!

 

I visited a multi yesterday that's not actually in a mall parking lot, it's in the woods behind it and the best and most logical access is via the parking lot.

 

This was the fourth time I had been to this cache while caching with others.

 

Twice previously we had been run off by mall security, and sure enough, as soon as my buddy gets in the woods here comes security, asking me what he's doing in the woods, telling me it's private property, and that I have to call my friend out of the woods. The guy was being a real jerk when jerkiness was not required... I told him my buddy would be out in a few minutes, explained the game, explained that the hider (a friend of mine I respect) was good about getting permission and if he checked with his office they would likely know about the game.

 

Instead he radioed for the local PD, gave them both our car tags, and just raved on.

 

My buddy came out after maybe 5 minutes and we split, the security guy following us off the property.

 

I filed a Needs Archived based on the three out of four record of being hassled at this cache.

 

The owner is checking with his contact to see why permission info can't trickle down to security.

 

I suspect the issue here is one that will be found at many places - the mall doesn't hire security, they hire a company to provide it, a company that may frequently rotate their employees to different sites, so there is no one person on-site that knows anything about it... they just have a rule book and a radio... and sometimes an attitude!

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I filed a Needs Archived based on the three out of four record of being hassled at this cache.

Ed, do you think that cache should be archived? If I had an issue with a jerk, at a cache belonging to a friend, I would explain the problem to my friend, and post my experience in the log so future seekers, (assuming they bothered reading past logs), would be aware of the problem. If the cache in question had belonged to a stranger, who I perceived to be inactive & unresponsive, then I could see the cache needing to be archived.

 

In the instance you cited, do the reviewers really need to get involved?

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Cops with nothing better to do decided that a cache I placed was causing "too much" suspious activity.

B):laughing:B)

???

 

WTF? Too much? It was an ALTOIDS TIN!

 

They confiscated it and I was told I couldnt have it back..

 

This is what we get when we have a POLICE STATE!

 

Legal gangs of uniformed people with badges that allow the POWER to got their heads...

 

What CRAP...

Ill watch for the terror alert on the 11 pm news... B):laughing:

 

You could get it back. But you have to pay the price.

 

As for the OP. That was a good outcome. That's why we have stash notes.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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....I filed a Needs Archived based on the three out of four record of being hassled at this cache.

 

The owner is checking with his contact to see why permission info can't trickle down to security....

 

You did not do the right thing. If the owners have permission they have permission. the cache is legal and mall security is a nuisance, but in the wrong.

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I filed a Needs Archived based on the three out of four record of being hassled at this cache.

Ed, do you think that cache should be archived? If I had an issue with a jerk, at a cache belonging to a friend, I would explain the problem to my friend, and post my experience in the log so future seekers, (assuming they bothered reading past logs), would be aware of the problem. If the cache in question had belonged to a stranger, who I perceived to be inactive & unresponsive, then I could see the cache needing to be archived.

 

In the instance you cited, do the reviewers really need to get involved?

Yes, getting the Reviewer involved is the whole point of a Needs Archived!

 

Yes, the owner is a good friend and I would do nothing to hurt him.

 

Yes, the cache should be archived until every security officer there knows not to hassle geocachers.

 

Whether the NA was appropriate depends, I suspect, on your opinion of that tool!

 

Some see the NA log as an offensive weapon. Some see it as an insult.

 

Most see it as it was intended; a tool to help keep the game clean and safe. This owner, I believe, falls into that latter category.

 

I do not want cachers arrested, I do not want property-owners irritated, I don't want this property owner to ban caches on their property - therefore a cache that has caused trouble with security 3 out of 4 visits needs to be reviewed for placement permission; if it has permission (the owner has since told me that it does) then clarification needs to be made to the security officers, and the Reviewer needs to know who the contact is.

 

So, yes, it was appropriate and the cache owner has expressed no gripe with it!

 

I once had the honor of serving as a Volunteer Reviewer and this is exactly what I would have wanted to see happen in this circumstance.

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....I filed a Needs Archived based on the three out of four record of being hassled at this cache.

 

The owner is checking with his contact to see why permission info can't trickle down to security....

 

You did not do the right thing. If the owners have permission they have permission. the cache is legal and mall security is a nuisance, but in the wrong.

Mall security can be wrong all day long - while you are being detained and fined for trespassing you be sure to tell them that you know you're rights!

 

They like it when folks ignore them, tell them "Buzz off, I have permission to be here! I can't prove it, but I do, so go play somewhere else!" Try it sometime! :laughing:

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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....I filed a Needs Archived based on the three out of four record of being hassled at this cache.

 

The owner is checking with his contact to see why permission info can't trickle down to security....

 

You did not do the right thing. If the owners have permission they have permission. the cache is legal and mall security is a nuisance, but in the wrong.

Mall security can be wrong all day long - while you are being detained and fined for trespassing you be sure to tell them that you know you're rights!

 

Since this issue is in the logs and since you should read the cache page and since if you didn't know you had permission you would leave when challenged it's a non issue. However if you do know you have permission it's easy enough to smile at security and tell them as much. I'd not have a problem doing it at all. Some owners I'd trust and make the stand and some I'd not assume they had it right and leave.

 

Since you said the owner had permission and I'm willing to stand on that for this post, you should not archive the cache based on the lack of wisdom of the finders, and the lack of effort on the part of mall security.

 

In your shoe and knowing I had permission I'd be more than happey to help mall security learn their job. If they refused to learn I'd probably be wondering at what point being detained becomes false imprisonment. That's a very seriouse thing. Enough to bankrupt a two bit security company.

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... Hm. And hereI always thought that stereotyping people because of their age, race, gender, etc. fell firmly in the category of "ignorant"....

 

Stereotyping people is a great and handy tool. I'll be using it heavily when my daughter starts dating. People use stereotypes all the time for a lot of reasons entirly becuase they work. We do not have time enough in the world to make all the decisions in life we are faced with without making some assumptions.

 

It's when you are given better information and you stick with your stereotype that problems creep in.

 

I have no doubt whatsoever that you have a list of stereotypes that you use all the time and are not even aware of them until someone starts pointing them out.

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In your shoe and knowing I had permission I'd be more than happey to help mall security learn their job. If they refused to learn I'd probably be wondering at what point being detained becomes false imprisonment. That's a very seriouse thing. Enough to bankrupt a two bit security company.

 

In my shoe :laughing: you would have had no real choice but leave or cause a scene. We left.

 

False imprisonment, in my lay opinion, is not an issue here... they have every right to stop you, write a ticket or call a cop who can, and escort you from the premises.

 

Any business gives its customers the right to come there and do business on their terms and conditions and can revoke that privilege pretty much at their whim. We have no 'right' whatsoever to geocache in a mall or any other private property.

 

I get checked out a lot, my fellow cachers call me a cop magnet, most check-outs are pleasant and harmless, even fun... but this was not a man anyone was going to 'educate'!

 

I have to stand by my opinion that archiving this cache, at least until the issue is resolved, is better than attracting a cacher to this site. No good will come of that.

 

This all goes back to my long-standing and ignored suggestion that Placement Permission Contact Info be placed on every cache page. This would pretty much solve these issues.

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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...I have to stand by my opinion that archiving this cache, at least until the issue is resolved, is better than attracting a cacher to this site. No good will come of that. ...
I was looking for the thing that made your way of thinking different than mine and I think you just posted it.

 

You see, it is not up to you to decide whether the cache should be archived. You state that you know the hider and that he had permission. Given that, he should be given the opportunity to make sure that security gets their head right. It is not useful to involve the reviewer. After all, what is the reviewer going to do about this issue? He will either do one of two things. He will take a page from your playbook and immediately archive the cache (for no real reason), or he will contact the cache owner who will explain that he has explicit permission.

 

Either way, your responsibility in this situation was to post your note and contact the owner who you claim that you're friends with.

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[...I get checked out a lot, my fellow cachers call me a cop magnet, most check-outs are pleasant and harmless, even fun... but this was not a man anyone was going to 'educate'!...

 

I must be an anti-magnet. It's the folks in front of me or behind me who get stopped and asked questions. The opposite of the person who if there is one mosquito they are going to get bit. My day will come though.

 

Where we differe is this:

I'm saying. "The cache has permission. It's good, in spite of the problem with mall security, no need to archive."

 

You are saying "The finders are going to have problem with mall security better to archive in spite of the cache having permission."

 

We have a different emphasis, or perhaps see the problem differently. I see a valid cache that should remain inspite of stupid issues because stupid issues should not define our world. You are perhaps worried that the stupid issue is going to cause more problems than it's worth.

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I was looking for the thing that made your way of thinking different than mine and I think you just posted it.

Apparantly everything about my way of thinking is different than yours, which is what makes your posts so valuable to me! :laughing:

 

You see, it is not up to you to decide whether the cache should be archived.

Correct - it's up to the Reviewer.

 

[

He will take a page from your playbook and immediately archive the cache (for no real reason), or he will contact the cache owner who will explain that he has explicit permission.

She, actually, will do whatever she thinks is right with zero regard to my playbook!

 

Either way, your responsibility in this situation was to post your note and contact the owner who you claim that you're friends with.

My primary responsibility is to keep others from going there until the situation is resolved.

 

As far as the tone of disbelief I read into your phrase "claim you are friends with" I in fact do make that claim - he and his family are not only long-time friends and caching buddies but also brothers in Freemasonry, bound by solemn obligation to look out for one another. Outside of actual blood relationship two men can't be bound closer!

 

When HE tells me he is offended or that I was wrong I will pay more heed.

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Thankfully, though, we have mechanisms built into the Constitution that will pave the way to have those freedoms returned.

 

oh, CR, sweetheart. i wish i believed you. once civil liberties are abridged they almost never come back.

 

as for the police state, we still have more freedoms than most; sadly we keep giving them up in the supposed name of safety.

 

and yes, drug people do hide drugs in ways that resemble geocaches.

 

...or rather, the other way round, because soft drops predate geocaching. it only stands to reason that every once in a while a geocache will come under suspicion, even if security guards are using sense.

 

there is a famous incident here in vermont in which some cachers were questioned at the business end of an M4. the story is usually told by the guard with the M4, a serious cacher. she knew about the cache and she knew what the people were doing. she still had to check, though.

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We have a different emphasis, or perhaps see the problem differently. I see a valid cache that should remain inspite of stupid issues because stupid issues should not define our world. You are perhaps worried that the stupid issue is going to cause more problems than it's worth.

Exactly!

 

Leaving it there while the owner decides what to do, or goes through channels, about the permission / security awareness issue just invites more trouble, either getting another cacher stopped, making the property owners rethink and rescind their permission, or both.

 

The NA stops that potential in its tracks.

 

If it's all settled it can be unarchived at a moments notice, no harm no foul.

 

A log or an email can't accomplish this.

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This is what we get when we have a POLICE STATE!

 

Hi,

 

I really suggest, that you travel a bit. The cops in the US are very professional, friendly and usually have a lot of common sense. A police state is something completely different, those people put their safety in the line FOR YOUR SAFETY! In a police state you wouldn't be allowed to write such nonsense.

 

I absolutely understand that geocaching has a potential to create suspicious situations. People with electronic gadgets obviously looking for something and the quickly do something with their find while trying not to be seen.

 

I'm absolutely sure that the loss of another urban micro is a big loss to geocaching...

 

GermanSailor

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If it's all settled it can be unarchived at a moments notice, no harm no foul.

Until next week, when the security company rotates it's employees at that site. Then I reckon we need to archive it again. :laughing:

The cache met the guidelines, and had explicit permission, unlike most strip mall hides. It most certainly did not need to be archived. Too bad we don't have a button that gets the over zealous rent-a-cop archived. Oh... Wait... We do have such a button. They are on your telephone.

 

A note from a cop to the caching public:

The Supreme Court defined a "seizure" to include detaining an individual. Thanx to our 4th Amendment, security officers do not have the right to detain people. Sworn law enforcement officers do have this right, but only under well regulated circumstances. If a security officer steps outside the bounds of their authority, and is polite about it, it's often best to play along with them. If they are not polite about it, they need to be educated both in the laws of their particular jurisdiction, and in their people skills. Often, telling them, "I'm done here", and walking calmly away, then calling the security company from the security of your home is enough to accomplish this.

 

A caveat: Many security companies hire off duty law enforcement officers, and stick them in their company monkey suits. Asking a simple question, such as, "Do you have the lawful authority to prevent me from leaving?" can reveal if the guard is just a guard, or a real cop in disguise.

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If you go back and read the OP, this ought to have been a positive thread. It's a great story about a security guard who showed some common sense, and a good lesson on the value of "stash notes," even in micro caches.

 

Let's get the discussion pointed back towards the original topic, OK? Thanks.

 

And yet another thread begins the slow circular route out into the ocean even though Keystone asked nicely..... :laughing:

 

Well at least it started off as a nice discussion of a situation that was well handled. Thanks for sharing that with us OP.

Edited by wimseyguy
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Asking a simple question, such as, "Do you have the lawful authority to prevent me from leaving?" can reveal if the guard is just a guard, or a real cop in disguise.

Only problem with this advice, and the whole "stand up to the overbearing rent-a-cop" scenario in general is that, since the person is handling the situation in an apparently unprofessional manner in the first place, it is reasonable to assume that the errant "cop" is very likely to say whatever it takes to reinforce his alleged authority.

 

In this hypothetical scenario, you have here a Bozo with a gun . It is best that he be treated just like any other Bozo with a gun... placate and vacate.

 

Nothing good can ever come of directly resisting a "law enforcement official" even if you aer SURE heshe is overstepping their authority.

 

The correct response is "yes, Sir" or "yes, Ma'am" and accomplish your exit in as calm and non-threatening a manner as possible.

 

THEN you can contact the "cop's" superior, and if appropriate, your lawyer.

 

In Indiana many of the "mall cops" ARE sworn officers (special deputies) and assuming that they are powerless rent-a-cops may result in a lot more trouble than you bargained for. I suspect they are similarly empowered in many other jurisdictions also.

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My primary responsibility is to keep others from going there until the situation is resolved.

 

Your primary responsibility is to keep yourself out of trouble, your secondary responsibility is to mention the incident in your cache log.

Beyond that it's all optional, but since the owner is a "good close friend" I hope you discussed it with him before hitting the NA button, I would be royally ticked if a friend of mine went behind my back without talking to me first.

 

As far as the tone of disbelief I read into your phrase "claim you are friends with" I in fact do make that claim - he and his family are not only long-time friends and caching buddies but also brothers in Freemasonry, bound by solemn obligation to look out for one another. Outside of actual blood relationship two men can't be bound closer!

 

When HE tells me he is offended or that I was wrong I will pay more heed.

 

If he is that close he will be seriously offended, but too good a friend to say so. In this case I'm betting he is the better friend, no insult intended. I have been offended by friends and family more than once, I won't tell them because they ARE good friends or family members, something to consider.

For comparision, what if your friend doesn't like where you park when you visit him, but instead of talking to you about it he instead hires an attorney to send you a letter telling you not to park there anymore?

He is within his rights, obeying the law, no one gets arrested, and he gets the desired result, but was it the best way to do it?

 

Now if you didn't know the owner so well I would probably side with you on the matter, but I don't think you did right by your friend, unless you have discussed it with him on the previous occasions and he did nothing, in that case forget it, you did right. :laughing:

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If you go back and read the OP, this ought to have been a positive thread. It's a great story about a security guard who showed some common sense, and a good lesson on the value of "stash notes," even in micro caches.

 

Let's get the discussion pointed back towards the original topic, OK? Thanks.

 

And yet another thread begins the slow circular route out into the ocean even though Keystone asked nicely..... :laughing:

 

Well at least it started off as a nice discussion of a situation that was well handled. Thanks for sharing that with us OP.

 

Yes, very glad it had a good outcome. :laughing:

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Now if you didn't know the owner so well I would probably side with you on the matter, but I don't think you did right by your friend, unless you have discussed it with him on the previous occasions and he did nothing, in that case forget it, you did right. :laughing:

The thing is I would do the same thing if it was a stranger, a friend or my mother!

 

The NA is not an insult, embarrassment or punishment.

 

If it is the right thing to do then whether the owner is a friend is irrelevant.

 

PM me if you want to discuss this further, we've already been herded back to the OP trail!

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I have been in contact with Jason Cox the author of the newspaper piece just to thank him for his positive attitude toward geocaching in his article.

It seems that he is familiar with geocaching, and thought it would be fun to do the article from the perspective of the guard who knew nothing about geocaching..

I thought the piece was well done compared to what it could have been spun into. :laughing:

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.A caveat: Many security companies hire off duty law enforcement officers, and stick them in their company monkey suits. Asking a simple question, such as, "Do you have the lawful authority to prevent me from leaving?" can reveal if the guard is just a guard, or a real cop in disguise.
Thanks. I always appreciate your input as a LEO.

 

In that situation, would the police officer be required to identify himself as such in order to legally detain you?

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you sound like a teenager, or a really ignorant person.
There's a difference??? :P
Hm. And hereI always thought that stereotyping people because of their age, race, gender, etc. fell firmly in the category of "ignorant"....
I guess I did a good job of stereotyping him, since his two caches caused an uproar in NH. :unsure:
Don't pet yourself on the back just yet. It appears that he was not involved with the 'bridge' cache.

 

Either way, your comment was quite a bit too snarky.

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