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Non Authorized Anthus Firefighter Coins


Anthus

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The coins were removed from the trade list days ago. I think we have beaten this horse to a pulp. If you have any issues with the people who made your coin, take it up with them. Go back and read your contracts with them.

 

I don't believe the issue with the collectors is just that they were being traded, it's also the fact they EXIST without the customer's knowledge.

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:laughing:

 

I wish this thread would disappear. I think that it is an issue between the parties that dealt with the Geocoin Store. Leaving it up is just adding fuel to the fire and turning cachers against one another. I think the point has been made that there were "unauthorized/unknown" coins out there and the explanatioin is not coming at least not to this forum. Perhaps if everyone who has an issue would take a deep breath and calmly write the Geocoin Store more would be accomplished. (Yea I know they don't reply to email very quickly.)

 

Here's another idea, if you're still in the Geocoin Club, cancel your subscriptioin (I did for this and other reasons). Also, don't shop there, don't buy another Signal coin or anything else they produce. This is the third or fourth issue to come to light about the Geocoin Store. Let me refresh your memories;

 

Sales of coins when coins were rare and there wasn't a coin for everything....(woo that was a nightmare F5. F5, F5)

Slow Shipping, lost coins...

Slow Customer Service (email etc)...

The Jan 06 (I think it was) Signal coin...

 

Here's a question I have, were the coins in question (Anthus and HH, etc) produced as part of their "subsidized coin plan" - remember that, where they would help pick up the cost for making your coin, do the distribution etc???

 

I live by Buyer Beware, but Lord knows I've gotten ripped off before.....

 

Good luck to all and perhaps FSM or Earth will kill this thread today... :laughing:

Edited by The Blind Acorn
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This is the third or fourth issue to come to light about the Geocoin Store. Let me refresh your memories;

 

Sales of coins when coins were rare and there wasn't a coin for everything....(woo that was a nightmare F5. F5, F5)

Slow Shipping, lost coins...

Slow Customer Service (email etc)...

The Jan 06 (I think it was) Signal coin...

 

Here's a question I have, were the coins in question (Anthus and HH, etc) produced as part of their "subsidized coin plan"

 

The agreement under which a coin is produced is a non-starter as far as issues go. The fact that the store foots the bill has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue identified by the posters on this thread. I am concerned that they haven't responded, even more so since Anthus has indicated that there were Wild Rose blanks made. Even if I wished to say "feel free to do that" in regards to making blanks of the Alberta geocoin I never did have the authority to do so, I acted as an agent for a working group.

 

I am not ready to give up on the geocoin store, in spite of the issues identified on this thread I still have a good opinion of the geocachers involved in the geocoin store. I would like to resolve this problem, perhaps even more than you, but locking the thread isn't a solution. Walking away and turning my back on the geocoin store as you have done is not the solution I prefer, I would like to see a different resolution.

 

For the record;

I liked the fact that geocoins were rare in the past.

I never had any issues with customer service.

I never lost coins in transit.

I never had any issues with the Jan 06 Signal but I have heard the story from both sides.

 

My primary concern is still the fact that the idea of a possible market for blank geocoins has not been entirely quashed by the store principles through the admission that they made an error in even producing the blanks. This is a simple solution yet will likely involve the destruction or repatriation of many geocoins. There have been many many geocoins produced in between the GAS geocoin and the Wild Rose geocoin, I am thinking that there may be hundreds of blanks.

 

I don't see this as a polarizing issue, I see a lot of concern but there really isn't two sides here. I haven't seen anyone suggest that this isn't a mistake or that the practice is acceptable, have you? The principles of the geocoin store must realize that they are not dealing with the public, they are dealing with this community, people who do not geocache generally don't buy geocoins.

 

I would like to reiterate that I have no rancor, I am simply trying to find out what has happened with the geocoins I had made at the geocoin store and this thread is the correct venue for doing that. Sending an email to the geocoin store will produce no answers for the hundreds of geocachers who purchased or own a GAS geocoin or an Alberta geocoin.

 

With the greatest respect this is a serious matter for the geocaching community, the community being the people who keep these forums going and Groundspeak in business. I would hope that the moderation would be such as to ensure that the community can express its concerns or positives in an appropriate manner.

 

Unless the TOS have been breached I would hope that the discussion is allowed to continue in an appropriate manner.

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I wish this thread would disappear.

Simple fix, don't read it. It affects enough cachers out there that it should not be locked. Also, new coin collectors should be aware of this situation as well in the event they want to have a coin made.

Here's another idea, if you're still in the Geocoin Club, cancel your subscriptioin (I did for this and other reasons). Also, don't shop there, don't buy another Signal coin or anything else they produce. This is the third or fourth issue to come to light about the Geocoin Store. Let me refresh your memories;

Not a member, and won't buy from or have a coin made by them again. So far they have done absolutely nothing to appease those affected. Even the email from Mike to Anthus was "here's the name of the mint that has your dies, you deal with it." Nice customer service. I would have at the BARE minimum come in and apologized and made a change to our policy. They have not done any of that to the best of my knowledge. They have no responded here, and I have not been contacted about it by them.

Here's a question I have, were the coins in question (Anthus and HH, etc) produced as part of their "subsidized coin plan" - remember that, where they would help pick up the cost for making your coin, do the distribution etc???

Yes, as has been stated all coins that were affected appear to be "subsidized" coins. However, that does not mean they can make as many as they want! Are you not thinking clearly? As stated, I'm don't believe I have my agreement with them any longer, I don't believe I ever printed it out, my bad. However, I don't recall ever seeing anything in there about allowing them to create extras.

 

Again, I would not have minded them making 2 or possibly 3 extras. But not 15, there's no need for that.

 

Arrrgg..I'm still stuck on you thinking it's OK because they subsidized it. I don't see how this is logical in your mind. You think that if someone subsidizes the cost of something for you that gives them the right to make as many as they want for their purposes? How about if they wanted a different finish, so made them all different than that I had ordered? Would that be OK?

 

I don't get it.

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It seems very clear at this point that they are not going to explain themselves and what they have done. The best thing to do now is decide if you want to work with and/or buy from these people and go from there. If you continue to have your coins made with them, you know what's coming at least.

 

I think this topic has gone as far as it can without the "other" side making an appearance.

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To back up Eartha - the point being made here is that everybody HAS had thier chance to state thier opinions and frustrations in this thread. What it's turning into now is a "let's keep bashing on them until they come and respond".

 

Think about it: At least one member (-mike-) has come in and responded but the others have not. They are obviously aware of the issue(s) and have have chosed to not come into this thread to post - do you really think that any more 'bashing' is going to make them?

 

As a member of the coin community I am glad this entire situation has come to light and been brough out into the open. But I also agree that there doesn't appear to be much more left to be said.

 

With that, I won't clsoe this thread, but will ask future posters to please have something constructive to say, or thought-provoking to add. There is no point in keeping this thread open for more "yeah, we think what XXXX did was wrong, too".

 

I would think at this point that any communication between the store in question and affected parties will likely occur in private anyway.

 

So yes, we will watch this thread and attemp to keep it as a discussion rather than a bashing - please help us do so and there is no reason that it cannot stay open.

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The coins were removed from the trade list days ago. I think we have beaten this horse to a pulp. If you have any issues with the people who made your coin, take it up with them. Go back and read your contracts with them.

 

As a person who is in the process of having a couple of coins made, I'm all for continuing to serve horse pulp. No, I'm not having them make either of the coins. I left their club a long time ago and I don't believe I've purchased more than one item there since - personally, I just didn't like the product. However, this discussion is giving insight to the process to people that have not been involved in the process before and are potential customers.

 

I'm beginning to feel that this whole coin-making process isn't as difficult as some of the companies would have us believe. I'd like to see the curtain continue to be pulled back so we can talk to the "wizard".

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A few replies to HH...

 

I chose to leave GCC for personal reasons as well as in light of this thread. I don't make it a habit to use businesses that have wronged me and/or others.

 

I never said it was ok for them to make as many as they wanted, nor do I think what has transpired with Anthus is right. Please don't put words in my mouth. I simply asked a question.

 

:laughing:

Edited by The Blind Acorn
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I wonder if everyone who was affected knows.

Since the offending trading list is down, there is no public record.

 

Anthus have you emailed everyone on the spreadsheet apprising them of the situation? Or, would it make sense to list here the coins that have had blanks listed for trading from said list, or do we go with the assumption that everyone who had a coin made had blanks made and possibly traded.

 

Cheers,

nooks

Edited by nooks
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I have limited my participation in this thread for a variety of reasons. Be assured that lack of participation here should not be construed as a lack of concern. I have been actively contacting customers personally to discuss this. If you haven't heard from me, you will soon. As you can imagine, this kind of personal interaction is time consuming - but it is important.

 

I posted previously to state that the trading was an error in judgment and to outline our current sample policy. If you look on page one, you can see my post to this effect. Days have past since then and I have learned a lot so I wanted to provide some final feedback in terms of lessons learned by this process. I intend to end my participation in this thread with this post. I invite anyone who wishes to discuss with me further to contact me directly at mike@geocoinclub.com

 

I've learned a lot from this process. I will be the last in the world to proclaim I am perfect. However, I feel every person and company in the world should feel free to make mistakes. Without mistakes, there would be no progress. What is important is how you react to mistakes. Both the ones you make and the ones others make. You can tell a lot about a company or an individual by how they react to their mistakes and others' mistakes. As important as it is to accept responsibility and make corrective action - it's important to be gracious to others when they fail. You will make an error someday too - remember how vehemently you condemned someone else when that happens. Revelling in the errors of your competition is tacky at best. We don't have to be buddy-buddy but situations like this provide a great chance for all vendors to live and learn and hopefully will ultimately result in a stronger community, which is a result of *healthy* competition.

 

First, I learned about the importance of being extremely explicit with your terms and conditions. Even if you are doing a coin in a non-traditional manner like our subsidization programs, etc. The practice of making samples is not unique to us and has been confirmed as such here in this thread. Going forward we will be extremely explicit in our written policies about how we create and use samples and there will be no deviation from it. I hope each and every one of our fellow coin vendors will take a lesson from this thread and make future efforts to review their published policies and their content. I attempted to research the policies of our co-vendors to help me consider what we should have. I had difficulty finding anything on most vendor's sites (similar to our status) that clearly spells out sample policies. Each vendor with published policies need to review and consider the content of their policies and we all need to consider ease of access.

 

Second, customers need to consider if this issue is important to them. Regardless of vendors they have used in the past. If the sample policies of the vendors you have used are unclear and it concerns you - I encourage everyone to contact your vendors and ask for copies of their policies. I believe that having samples made is a common practice based on my research and the comments here. I also believe that most vendors are lacking in their visibility of their documented policy - if they have one. Check out your vendor's website and look for their terms and conditions. I think if customers took the time to read the terms that are published, they would be suprised by the content of the policies and the liberal rights it gives the vendor for use and even at times *sale* of the samples. Make sure the documented version and the professed version match as you will utlimately be bound by the documented version if push comes to shove. And a vendor's use is only limited to what is stated there. If you are not satisfied with the freedoms a vendor grants themselves with samples of your coins, or if the vendor does not have a published limit of the number of samples, consider if that's important to you when choosing a vendor.

 

Third, I have recognized and will again that the trading was a mistake in judgment. I am not sure if it has been explicitly apologized for. If not, we certainly apologize for this. It was an error in judgment, we all have them. Corrective action was taken as soon as it became obvious there has been an error in judgment. The samples were on one person's trade list, not managed or reviewed prior to posting by "The Geocoin Club, LLC". At the same time, I'm not going to let my partner languish in this alone and do believe that the company's lack of documented policy on this has lead to the current situation. No samples of customer coins will be made available in any way without prior permission of that customer by us from this point forward. I can't change the past, but I can learn from it. That's hindsight, which is always 20/20. Right now, all that we can do is accept the error, correct the error, and adjust based on lessons learned. We've done the first and work will continue on the latter two.

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Not bashing either side here, I dont have a personal coin right now & dont see one in the near future.

 

I do know one thing though that has been brought up several times already.. if you are having a personal/group coin made up by any geocoin maker then be dang sure you know what every single word in that contract says & means. Know how it can possibly affect you in the future & how the coinmaker does things.

 

I know that many companies make samples, doesnt matter if its websites, geocoins, military challenge coins, pins, etc.

They do it as stated for portfilios to show prespective customers, its a fact of life & has been in the past for people like artists & photographers. They usually make sure of how their work is used though.

 

Anyways... Anthus(?) was told to contact to contact the die holder directly because no matter what they said (s)he wouldnt believe them anyways. Look towards the bottom of that clip about it.

 

My family & myself have no intention of cancelling any subscriptions we have, we plan on dealing with who we have in the past & lessons learned are good things.

 

End of story for me.

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snip-

 

I've learned a lot from this process.

 

snip-

 

I can't change the past, but I can learn from it. That's hindsight, which is always 20/20. Right now, all that we can do is accept the error, correct the error, and adjust based on lessons learned. We've done the first and work will continue on the latter two.

 

I think we have all learned a lot here.

 

Hindsight is 20/20. If I could re-do all of my bad decisions...I would be a wealthy man right now! :laughing:

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No samples of customer coins will be made available in any way without prior permission of that customer by us from this point forward. I can't change the past, but I can learn from it. That's hindsight, which is always 20/20. Right now, all that we can do is accept the error, correct the error, and adjust based on lessons learned. We've done the first and work will continue on the latter two.

 

Excellent post - and I personally have had nothing but good experiences in my communications, and dealings with every aspect of the Geocoinstore. I would continue to deal with them, purchase from them, and recommend them.

 

I understand that some may be unhappy with some issues in the past- which has been well-discussed, but I agree - you live and learn.

 

It appears that the company wants to do right by its customers, which is all anyone can ask for.

 

Paula

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If I could re-do all of my bad decisions...I would be a wealthy man right now!

 

If I could re-do all of my bad decisions I would be wealthier. :laughing:

 

Thanks -mike-.

 

I appreciate your candor and as I said, I am looking forward to meeting you guys at the GeocoinFest. I have been a happy customer of the geocoin store and I will continue to be a customer. :laughing:

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Third, I have recognized and will again that the trading was a mistake in judgment. I am not sure if it has been explicitly apologized for. If not, we certainly apologize for this. It was an error in judgment, we all have them.

Thank you Mike. This is indeed a great start. I have not heard from you yet, but as you post states, I believe I can expect to hear from you.

 

Have you (the Geocoin Store, LLC) thought about try to contact everyone that these coins were traded to and get them back. Of course this could be a problem as well as the person may have traded them away or placed a value on them above and beyond the "normal" value.

 

Just curious what thoughts there were about that.

 

Again, thank you for the public apology and the fact that you will be making changes to your policy. As I said, it's a a good first step in the right direction.

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I think if customers took the time to read the terms that are published, they would be suprised by the content of the policies and the liberal rights it gives the vendor for use and even at times *sale* of the samples.

I have always had good dealings with you and I feel you are trying to accept responsibility for the issues at hand. That being said, I think it is also being down played when they are called samples over and over. They weren't. These were coins minted and used for trade and such. These were for personal use of the 3 of you. I also hate hearing how this was a just a simple mistake. Maybe you didn't know enough of the dealings and it can be called a mistake, but Bjorn can't. He knew what he was doing was not on the up and up. Why else would he have Moop Along broker the coins for trade for him? Like I said I don't have an issue with you personally mike, and actually hope you get through this as you have been more than generous and helpful to myself, but for the others....

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I have always had good dealings with you and I feel you are trying to accept responsibility for the issues at hand. That being said, I think it is also being down played when they are called samples over and over. They weren't. These were coins minted and used for trade and such. These were for personal use of the 3 of you. I also hate hearing how this was a just a simple mistake. Maybe you didn't know enough of the dealings and it can be called a mistake, but Bjorn can't. He knew what he was doing was not on the up and up. Why else would he have Moop Along broker the coins for trade for him? Like I said I don't have an issue with you personally mike, and actually hope you get through this as you have been more than generous and helpful to myself, but for the others....

 

I have sat idly by and watched three people that are good friends to me get hit pretty hard. I'm not going to rehash any of that business. But, since I've been dragged into the mix, you get a reply.

 

I volunteered as a friend to help Bjorn74 out in trading his coins. He, along with the other partners, do not actively trade, due to their busy schedules and such. Since I am a very active trader, I discussed with Bjorn74 the possibility of me brokering them for him. I just assumed it was OK to trade what he gave me, nor did I know or even want to know what contracts were made between the individuals and the Store. It was simply a gesture from me to a friend, to help build his collection. I also agree that trading the coins was wrong in hindsight, and I apologize to anyone I have offended by this action. I too have removed any and all non-trackable coins not solely owned by the partners from the list I was using.

 

I leave the people affected by this to deal with the Store in private, as I do. Thanks

 

Pete

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Maybe you didn't know enough of the dealings and it can be called a mistake, but Bjorn can't. He knew what he was doing was not on the up and up. Why else would he have Moop Along broker the coins for trade for him?

 

This is completely speculative and has no place here. Unless you were sittiing by his side and talking to him while this was going on, you have no idea what he knew and why he used The Moop Along (although he has already posted his explanation).

 

Please do not point fingers and make accusations about things without facts. You have stated your opinion previously (that trading the coins was wrong), leave it at that.

 

I would suggest that Anthus contact the folks at the Geocoin Store and see if they are interested in replying in this thread. If not, I'm not sure what further purpose this thread serves.

 

SUMMARY:

- Blanks were made and traded

- People were unhappy and complained (in numbers)

- Some vendors have come in and explained or clarified thier policy on sample coins, others have not

- Accusations have been made and explanations have been given by those who have chosen to (at this point)

- Some people that have had coins made are trying to contact the broker offline to get resolution

- Everybody should read contacts, or ask for them carefully, going forward to know what they are getting into

 

Did I miss anything?

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Mike,

 

Thank you for your reply. This is a great step forward in resolving this issue. I agree that mistakes were made. I sympathize with you on this. We have all indeed made mistakes in our lives. The important thing is that we all learn from not only our mistakes but the mistakes of others. I’m glad some good has come from this bad issue. Many of the geocoin brokers are taking proactive steps with minters to make sure their coins are not distributed as samples by the mints. Some brokers have clarified their policies on samples and others have revised their policies with the customer relationship in mind. Coin collectors now know to ask many questions and to keep all paperwork related to making their coins. Collectors also know of these unauthorized blank coins and are less likely to trade for one. We have all learned from this situation.

 

I have limited my participation in this thread for a variety of reasons. Be assured that lack of participation here should not be construed as a lack of concern. I have been actively contacting customers personally to discuss this. If you haven't heard from me, you will soon. As you can imagine, this kind of personal interaction is time consuming - but it is important.

 

It’s assuring to know that you have been in contact with your other customers on this issue. I look forward to hearing from you outside these forums to work on a resolution to get the unauthorized blank Anthus Firefighter coins out of circulation.

 

Thanks…..Anthus

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Copy of Email I got today

 

Hello,

 

You are receiving this email because you have current coin designs under production with The Geocoin Club, LLC owners/operators of The Geocoin Store or have worked with us on projects in the past. I had been attempting to make this communication personally one by one, but it turns out it is not feasible for me to do that in the time I think it is prudent to provide this update. If this is repetitive for you, please ignore this email.

 

Recently it has come to our attention that our policy relating to maintaining samples of customer work was not well understood by some of our clients. It is common practice among all vendors of Geocoins/Challenge Coins/Pins/Etc. to maintain a set of each coin produced. For us, this set is limited to no more than 15 copies and is used for portfolio purposes only. We will be clarifying our published artwork acceptance policy to reflect this, but wanted to contact each past customer.

 

There has also been an instance of some of our samples being listed on an individual's trading list. That individual is a partner of our company, had no ill intentions, and suspended the practice immediately after being advised that it was not consistent with our intended use of these samples. Only coins of 14 of our over 150 customers appeared on the list at all, however ALL have been removed. We have confirmed that no samples of personal coins had been traded, no customers receiving this message have been affected by the trading and all of your coins have been removed from this list. We apologize for any frustration or dissatisfaction you may have experienced because of this. If you would like to discuss or inquire further, I will be happy to answer any questions you might have by email. Rest assured, the situation has been addressed.

 

In light of these recent events, I wanted to contact each customer to re-iterate our samples policy and to assure each of you that while your coins may have temporarily appeared on this list, none were released and the practice has been suspended. We commit that we will NEVER distribute samples of your coins without your prior permission to do so. We do, however, reserve the right to maintain these samples for our portfolio use. They are very important for us to use for future work and to display representations of previous product. If you have any additional concerns, please contact me directly to discuss.

 

Thank you for your past business and we hope you will continue to think of us now and into 2007 as you may consider additional coin projects.

 

--

Mike Wunderlich

The Geocoin Store / The Geocoin Club

http://www.geocoinclub.com

http://www.geocoinstore.com

mike@geocoinclub.com

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An excellent reply, IMO. And to me, it shows that the company cares about making things right to those who felt wronged.

 

As I said before, I will continue to do business with them, and would recommend them. Even more so after reading this email that was sent out.

 

I find that a personal email IMO certainly shows concern, and the priority of keeping people happy.

 

Paula

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So....can we close this down?

 

If it is acceptable, I'd like to keep this thread open so that the Geocoinstore customers with unauthorized blank coins, such as the Blue Canary, can post thier progress. Mike stated that he was contacting customers to work out a resolution. This helps us stay informed of each other's progress.

 

Thanks so much.....Anthus

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Copy of Email I got today

 

It is common practice among all vendors of Geocoins/Challenge Coins/Pins/Etc. to maintain a set of each coin produced. For us, this set is limited to no more than 15 copies and is used for portfolio purposes only.

--

Mike Wunderlich

The Geocoin Store / The Geocoin Club

http://www.geocoinclub.com

http://www.geocoinstore.com

mike@geocoinclub.com

This is different than what has come to light here. Portfolio purposes? They were on trade lists. This is the prime reason this thread should stay open. There is a huge difference between trading a coin that was made without permission and making a sample for the company's portfolio. This is as misleading as they could have said anything. They havn't learned anything and continue to downplay everything. This thread will serve as the only real source of what happen, from the voices of many, as to what happened. Sorry Mike, but you should have been more honest with your emails to these people. They have a right to know their coins were being actively traded through a common website that we all know to be for trading, not a portfolio.

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I have an un-numbered Fox and the Hound coin.....am I not supposed to? I don't intend on selling it on trading it or anything. I just think it's really pretty!

 

Bec

 

The above statement seems to be at odds with what was published in here as being an email from the geocoinstore to customers (Added bold for emphasis):

 

There has also been an instance of some of our samples being listed on an individual's trading list. That individual is a partner of our company, had no ill intentions, and suspended the practice immediately after being advised that it was not consistent with our intended use of these samples. Only coins of 14 of our over 150 customers appeared on the list at all, however ALL have been removed. We have confirmed that no samples of personal coins had been traded, no customers receiving this message have been affected by the trading and all of your coins have been removed from this list. We apologize for any frustration or dissatisfaction you may have experienced because of this. If you would like to discuss or inquire further, I will be happy to answer any questions you might have by email. Rest assured, the situation has been addressed.

 

I hope I am wrong...

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To anyone that has a blank Firefighter:

 

Please email or PM me. I will replace the blank Firefighter with one that has a tracking number on it at my own cost. I have less than 10 Firefighters left in my possession but it is very important to me that these unauthorized blanks are removed from circulation.

 

Thanks....Anthus

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Copy of Email I got today

 

Hello,

 

You are receiving this email because you have current coin designs under production with The Geocoin Club, LLC owners/operators of The Geocoin Store or have worked with us on projects in the past. I had been attempting to make this communication personally one by one, but it turns out it is not feasible for me to do that in the time I think it is prudent to provide this update. If this is repetitive for you, please ignore this email.

 

Recently it has come to our attention that our policy relating to maintaining samples of customer work was not well understood by some of our clients. It is common practice among all vendors of Geocoins/Challenge Coins/Pins/Etc. to maintain a set of each coin produced. For us, this set is limited to no more than 15 copies and is used for portfolio purposes only. We will be clarifying our published artwork acceptance policy to reflect this, but wanted to contact each past customer.

 

There has also been an instance of some of our samples being listed on an individual's trading list. That individual is a partner of our company, had no ill intentions, and suspended the practice immediately after being advised that it was not consistent with our intended use of these samples. Only coins of 14 of our over 150 customers appeared on the list at all, however ALL have been removed. We have confirmed that no samples of personal coins had been traded, no customers receiving this message have been affected by the trading and all of your coins have been removed from this list. We apologize for any frustration or dissatisfaction you may have experienced because of this. If you would like to discuss or inquire further, I will be happy to answer any questions you might have by email. Rest assured, the situation has been addressed.

 

In light of these recent events, I wanted to contact each customer to re-iterate our samples policy and to assure each of you that while your coins may have temporarily appeared on this list, none were released and the practice has been suspended. We commit that we will NEVER distribute samples of your coins without your prior permission to do so. We do, however, reserve the right to maintain these samples for our portfolio use. They are very important for us to use for future work and to display representations of previous product. If you have any additional concerns, please contact me directly to discuss.

 

Thank you for your past business and we hope you will continue to think of us now and into 2007 as you may consider additional coin projects.

 

--

Mike Wunderlich

The Geocoin Store / The Geocoin Club

http://www.geocoinclub.com

http://www.geocoinstore.com

mike@geocoinclub.com

 

It seems like a good step in making sure the situtation is cleaned-up and doesn't occur in the future.

 

To be honest, 15 coins is WAY too many "portfolio" coins in my opinion. However, that's just my opinion. Needless to say, I will now ensure I clarify up-front what the minters policy is on producing additional coins and avoid those that I feel have excessive "extras" created.

 

Given that all the coins were placed in portfolios of three partners, I think it would be reasonable for the coins to be removed and given the the creator that was unaware of this policy. I am sure there are 100's of other coins that could be used to demonstrate workmanship.

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I have an un-numbered Fox and the Hound coin.....am I not supposed to? I don't intend on selling it on trading it or anything. I just think it's really pretty!

 

Bec

 

The above statement seems to be at odds with what was published in here as being an email from the geocoinstore to customers (Added bold for emphasis):

 

I cannot speak for the geocoin store but wanted to say this.

 

The blank fox and the hound coin could also be a production mistake. Its been known to happen that errors happen in the minting process and there have been known instances of blank coins and mis-printed tracking numbers. Can't say thats the case here but it is a possibility.

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They were on trade lists. This is the prime reason this thread should stay open. There is a huge difference between trading a coin that was made without permission and making a sample for the company's portfolio. This is as misleading as they could have said anything. They havn't learned anything and continue to downplay everything.

 

It was acknowledged that some coins were on a trade list - no one was hiding or downplaying anything.

The email clearly stated that was not their policy, and would not be allowed.

 

I dont see that as misleading, or deceitful. If you read the email, in fact, its quite clear that they stated yes, something went wrong, and it wont be allowed to happen again.

 

Perhaps I'm reading it differently - but it seemed pretty straightforward to me.

 

beat-dead-horse.gif

Edited by CinemaBoxers
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To anyone with an unmarked Fox & the Hound coin or just interested:

 

It's been know from the beginning that there was a problem with the minter (NOT THE GEOCOINSTORE) in the production of our coins. These particular coins have no place in this current thread. We approved our coins to be released by the store without production samples in hand relying instead on hi-resolution photos that were forwarded to us from the mint.

 

When actual samples were in hand we realized that a large number of coins had quality problems and that none of them were according to the original specs we asked for. The Geocoinstore took immediate steps to correct the situation and took a substantial loss to have them reminted, recalled and even offered a monetary reward for replacing any coins owned by unhappy customers. That was way above and beyond what we hoped for. The boys at the store treated us well and we were informed early on about the keeping and using of our sample coins for promotion, etc. by the company. We approved it and have no problems with it. There are going to be a few unmarked F&H coins out there because ourselves and a few others who had our coins replaced still have a few of these originals which we just removed the tracking codes from and left in caches as sigs.

 

Our coins are personal signature items that we leave in caches, trade or activate and send out. If you have one with a tracking code or sans-code we don't mind in the least. We're just proud that you consider it worthy of your collection. Thanks - Hound :unsure:

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The Hogwild Perspective . . . . for what it is worth.

 

I have been traveling the last three days but have been watching this thread with great interest. I guess I would first like to say that we are all in the geocoin thing together and largely traveling uncharted waters, so I guess I see two issues:

 

It seems that in retrospect the extra 15 coins was excessive and assuming that policy is changed it is pretty hard to un-spill water. So the store would go along way toward reestablishing credibility by changing and announcing that change.

 

Second I think that better rapid communication between any two people who have differences is the key to keeping these things at a reasonable level.

 

Coin designs are very personal things and so I think that discovering extra coins of your design being made available and being upset by it is a reasonable reaction.

 

The Hogwild Policy:

 

1. Unlike other minters I essentially own most of the designs that I mint. I each trade coins for them or pay cash for them. There is typically a lose ratio of coins that I give to a designer based on the number of coins made. That being said, I am free to make as many trackable or non- trackable as I want, which maks life a lot easier.

 

2. When I make coins for others I will sometimes end up with some extra samples that don't go to the customer. It would be maybe up to 6 with various finishes. They would never be traded or sold without explicit permission of the owner of the design. They might occasionally go to a potential customer (at no charge to the customer) as an example of the quality of work I do.

 

3. Occasionally I will do a hybrid such as the CachingCoins or the Chili Pepper coin. In those circumstances I establish an agreement with the customer as to the price I will pay for the coins I am selling and the number of coins I am going to sell these coins are then owned by me and I can sell them, keep them or trade them. The one thing I can't do is make more for any purpose without the owner's permission. (The CachingCoins coin being an exception to this rule, where the owner still retains some rights to the unsold coins).

 

Ultimately each situation is a little different and the key is good communication between all parties. There have been, as near as I can tell, since the first of the year 4 little dramas in the forums over coins. Pretty much all could have been resolved or adverted with better and more straightforward communication. Unfortunately there are some people who would prefer to stir the pot than resolve the issue and this is unfortunate. It hurts the forums, it hurts Geocaching and it hurts the world of geocoins.

 

One Final thing. It is not uncommon for the factory to keep some coins that they will then send to prospective customers. I have in my possession two un-umbered geocoins that were sent to me as samples by the factory.

 

and no! I am not saying which ones and they will never go up for trade or sale.

 

 

We have never produced coins with anyone else,but we can state for sure that Steve is a straight shooter.

 

We have always been treated fairly in our dealings! (And then some)

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Copy of Email I got today

 

Hello,

 

You are receiving this email because you have current coin designs under production with The Geocoin Club, LLC owners/operators of The Geocoin Store or have worked with us on projects in the past. I had been attempting to make this communication personally one by one, but it turns out it is not feasible for me to do that in the time I think it is prudent to provide this update. If this is repetitive for you, please ignore this email.

 

Recently it has come to our attention that our policy relating to maintaining samples of customer work was not well understood by some of our clients. It is common practice among all vendors of Geocoins/Challenge Coins/Pins/Etc. to maintain a set of each coin produced. For us, this set is limited to no more than 15 copies and is used for portfolio purposes only. We will be clarifying our published artwork acceptance policy to reflect this, but wanted to contact each past customer.

 

There has also been an instance of some of our samples being listed on an individual's trading list. That individual is a partner of our company, had no ill intentions, and suspended the practice immediately after being advised that it was not consistent with our intended use of these samples. Only coins of 14 of our over 150 customers appeared on the list at all, however ALL have been removed. We have confirmed that no samples of personal coins had been traded, no customers receiving this message have been affected by the trading and all of your coins have been removed from this list. We apologize for any frustration or dissatisfaction you may have experienced because of this. If you would like to discuss or inquire further, I will be happy to answer any questions you might have by email. Rest assured, the situation has been addressed.

 

In light of these recent events, I wanted to contact each customer to re-iterate our samples policy and to assure each of you that while your coins may have temporarily appeared on this list, none were released and the practice has been suspended. We commit that we will NEVER distribute samples of your coins without your prior permission to do so. We do, however, reserve the right to maintain these samples for our portfolio use. They are very important for us to use for future work and to display representations of previous product. If you have any additional concerns, please contact me directly to discuss.

 

Thank you for your past business and we hope you will continue to think of us now and into 2007 as you may consider additional coin projects.

 

--

Mike Wunderlich

The Geocoin Store / The Geocoin Club

http://www.geocoinclub.com

http://www.geocoinstore.com

mike@geocoinclub.com

 

Thank you for posting this letter, its good to know the GCC is concerned about this issue and is taking action about it.

 

 

Also, have any of the people that got this letter asked about what 'portfolio purposes' means exactly?

It seems kinda unclear, to me at least, what these copies will be used for. I mean if each partner has a personal portfolio, and the business has say two, thats 5 coins/5 portfolio. If 9 or 15 copies were made, what happens to the other copies?? How many portfolio does this business have? :blink:

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Thank you to Mike and his partners for sharing their experiences and encouraging all vendors to document their policies and improve their communication and actions. We're all learning something here.

 

We're confident in the security of our mint, having been on the receiving end of their very specific and gracious requests to use our coins.

 

Chris and I are working on the exact wording of our 'sample' policy which to date has been unspoken but understood. This is an opportunity for us to discuss this in detail, look at all scenarios and come up with something that should be acceptable all around. Having spent years writing professional policy documents I know this won't be forthcoming overnight, but we'll try to use the KISS method too and keep it clear and short.

 

Would y'all like it posted here as well as on our site?

Helen

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How many portfolio does this business have? :blink:

 

Well, I can tell you that as an artist and photographer - I use portraits I take in books to show clients. And, I happen to keep about 4 portfolios. One travels, one stays at home, one is a 'backup' of sorts, and another is one I allow clients to 'borrow' if needed. So.. I can honestly say that in a 1-2 person operation that serves only a local customer base I keep multiple portfolios.

 

That aside from the original question - I do keep customers photos in my portfolio, and I also keep access to use them as samples, and in advertisements. (Whether art, or photography.)

 

I can tell you though, that the more partners in a business, and the more locations - the more portfolios are needed. One just isnt enough - even for me dealing locally. I couldn't get by without at LEAST 3.

 

Its a good question, but as someone who regularly deals with products where customers WANT to see samples of my work - I can tell you, its not as simple as having one or two collections of my work.

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photos, collectable coins mmm a little different would you give sombody a rembrant (did i spell it right)?? dont know or care but my coins that i have are very important to me and if there is sombody out there MAKING them worth less than they should be because they were trading unautherized coins i will not use or do business with anny time in the future

 

scott a quick

 

cache on

 

do it in the dark

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photos, collectable coins mmm a little different would you give sombody a rembrant (did i spell it right)?? dont know or care but my coins that i have are very important to me and if there is sombody out there MAKING them worth less than they should be because they were trading unautherized coins i will not use or do business with anny time in the future

 

Actually not too different... If I was in the business of paintings, etc... I would perhaps give them a replica of a rembrant... Which is basically what happens if you were to give a company or a prospective client a coin with no tracking... A replica of the coin thats not trackable.... Oh well, to each his own. They've already apologized for their mistake and are taking steps to prevent it.

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A similar issue appears regularly on a photgraphy site that I frequent. Presuming that the client is the owner of the design, making of any sample copies that are not specifically autharized by the client is likely to be copywrite infringement. It is not a "right" that can be "reserved" by the broker in the absence of a specific contractual agreement.

 

A more relavent example might be a mini-lab that blows up one of your pictures and used it on display in their place of business without your permission. It's purpose is similar to that of a sample - to show off the work of the printer (and decoration). Some photographers are flattered by the display of their picture. Others go ballistic at the uncompensated commercial use of their property - and take action.

 

Another example that people might be familiar with is professional photographs. Wal-mart and other smart labs won't make copies of them because if the owner of the photograph's copywrite (unless the work was specified as for hire, the copywrite owner is not you, it is the person took the picture) could take them to court for big $$$ for copywrite infringement. Likewise, you cannot make a copy of a famous photograph or painting and sell or trade it without the copywrite owner's permission. It does happen, but it can get the seller in trouble if they are caught.

 

I'm a chemist, not a lawyer, but I have done quite a bit of looking into copywrite protection and I realize that it is a complex area in which it is easy to get yourself into potentially expensive trouble (this goes for the images on coins as well as samples). This is a small, relatively underground community - and most things are likely to go unnoticed. But all parties in geocoin production should be very clear as to ownership of designs and licensing of copies for use as samples - to avoid the trouble that could follow from hurt feelings or unknown expectations.

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...A more relavent example might be a mini-lab that blows up one of your pictures and used it on display in their place of business without your permission. It's purpose is similar to that of a sample - to show off the work of the printer (and decoration). Some photographers are flattered by the display of their picture. Others go ballistic at the uncompensated commercial use of their property - and take action. ...

 

Funny thing. I don't allow photographers to copyright the pictures I commision them to take. They just assume that I'm paying them to copyright the photo and "just do it". All I wanted was their skill in staging a photo and most importantly the use of their better equipment.

 

That aside:

 

The photographer doesn't own any element of the photo. That is to say, I can take a picture of the same sunset. The same kid in the same clothes blowing the same snot bubbles, Stage the same materials and take essentially the same photo and blow it up for my own use.

 

Coins are not photo's. They are designs. You do have to trademark/copyright (or whatever it is...you need to do) to protect your design. Then you have legs to stand on. However the agreement with the coin making site is going to rule the day. You could give up your rights to the design insofar as sample coins. Especially if the coin making company reserves the right, and is especially proud of their work in translating a design into a coin.

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Coins are not photo's. They are designs. You do have to trademark/copyright (or whatever it is...you need to do) to protect your design. Then you have legs to stand on. However the agreement with the coin making site is going to rule the day. You could give up your rights to the design insofar as sample coins. Especially if the coin making company reserves the right, and is especially proud of their work in translating a design into a coin.

 

Actually you do not have to copyright or trademark a coin design to be protected. If it is orginal it is yours. There may be some debate over who the specific owner is, but if it is unique it is yours. The more practical issue is what it takes to protect your rights, for coin designs it is probably to expensive to take legal action, but the community actually does a pretty good job of helping to protect designs.

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Coins are not photo's. They are designs. You do have to trademark/copyright (or whatever it is...you need to do) to protect your design. Then you have legs to stand on. However the agreement with the coin making site is going to rule the day. You could give up your rights to the design insofar as sample coins. Especially if the coin making company reserves the right, and is especially proud of their work in translating a design into a coin.

 

Actually you do not have to copyright or trademark a coin design to be protected. If it is orginal it is yours. There may be some debate over who the specific owner is, but if it is unique it is yours. The more practical issue is what it takes to protect your rights, for coin designs it is probably to expensive to take legal action, but the community actually does a pretty good job of helping to protect designs.

 

Southbayday is correct. The "poorman's copyright" system is still legal in court; although it may take some exta lawyer power to back it up.

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....Actually you do not have to copyright or trademark a coin design to be protected. If it is orginal it is yours. There may be some debate over who the specific owner is, but if it is unique it is yours. The more practical issue is what it takes to protect your rights, for coin designs it is probably to expensive to take legal action, but the community actually does a pretty good job of helping to protect designs.

 

If I understand this is a result of the Millinium Copyright Act (or some similar sounding law).

 

The entire concept of Content and Intellecual Property has had me fascinated lately.

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...Southbayday is correct. The "poorman's copyright" system is still legal in court; although it may take some exta lawyer power to back it up.

 

I may own the design but isn't the copyright for the dies (since they too are art) automatically vested with the coin maker? Plus when I provide a sketch, which the middleman uses to create a derivative work of art to better capture my intent, also copyrighted, which of course ends up in a die which is yet another derivative work?

 

Back on topic. would Anthus need to specify no samples and request that the die be destroyed to protect his limited run?

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COPYRIGHT LAWS

 

What Works Are Protected?

 

Copyright protects “original works of authorship” that are fixed in a tangible form of expression. The fixation need not be directly perceptible so long as it may be communicated with the aid of a machine or device. Copyrightable works include the following categories:

 

1. literary works;

2. musical works, including any accompanying words

3. dramatic works, including any accompanying music

4. pantomimes and choreographic works

5. pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works

6. motion pictures and other audiovisual works

7. sound recordings

8. architectural works

 

These categories should be viewed broadly. For example, computer programs and most “compilations” may be registered as “literary works”; maps and architectural plans may be registered as “pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works.”

 

What Is Not Protected by Copyright?

 

Several categories of material are generally not eligible for federal copyright protection. These include among others:

 

*

 

Works that have not been fixed in a tangible form of expression (for example, choreographic works that have not been notated or recorded, or improvisational speeches or performances that have not been written or recorded)

*

 

Titles, names, short phrases, and slogans; familiar symbols or designs; mere variations of typographic ornamentation, lettering, or coloring; mere listings of ingredients or contents

*

 

Ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts, principles, discoveries, or devices, as distinguished from a description, explanation, or illustration

*

 

Works consisting entirely of information that is common property and containing no original authorship (for example: standard calendars, height and weight charts, tape measures and rulers, and lists or tables taken from public documents or other common sources)

 

How to Secure a Copyright

Copyright Secured Automatically upon Creation

 

The way in which copyright protection is secured is frequently misunderstood. No publication or registration or other action in the Copyright Office is required to secure copyright. (See:HOW TO SECURE A COPYRIGHT.) There are, however, certain definite advantages to registration. See “Copyright Registration.”

 

Copyright is secured automatically when the work is created, and a work is “created” when it is fixed in a copy or phonorecord for the first time. “Copies” are material objects from which a work can be read or visually perceived either directly or with the aid of a machine or device, such as books, manuscripts, sheet music, film, videotape, or microfilm. “Phonorecords” are material objects embodying fixations of sounds (excluding, by statutory definition, motion picture soundtracks), such as cassette tapes, CDs, or LPs. Thus, for example, a song (the “work”) can be fixed in sheet music (“copies”) or in phonograph disks (“phonorecords”), or both. If a work is prepared over a period of time, the part of the work that is fixed on a particular date constitutes the created work as of that date.

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